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spacecadet
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:18 am

LUV737 wrote:
For what it’s worth. Unconfirmed source - There’s an screenshot from the electronic tech log doing the rounds on the inter web. The crew operating the previous sector inbound to Jakarta made an entry that they experienced unreliable airspeed on Takeoff.


Could be related but I'm not seeing how right now. Unless I've got my time zones messed up, this is the METAR from Jakarta around the time of the accident:

WIII 282330Z 16003KT 8000 SCT020 27/25 Q1010 NOSIG

That translates to winds of 3 knots, scattered clouds at 2,000 feet, visibility of 5 miles and a ceiling of at least 12,000 feet. That's VFR weather, and it was daytime.

The reason for the accidents I know of that involved things like blocked pitot tubes and ports is that the pilots didn't have any visual reference points because they were not flying in VFR conditions. This plane seems to have been. So it's hard to see how even unreliable airspeed and altitude indicators could bring down the plane. They were certainly flying fast enough not to stall based on the info we have, but not so fast as to cause the breakup of the plane. They were pretty much maintaining altitude at 5,000 feet, although whether manually or on autopilot, we don't know. (If manually, we don't know why.)

So to me, the unreliable airspeed thing doesn't really explain anything. There's at least a lot more to the story, if that actually has anything to do with it to begin with.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
juliuswong
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:20 am

avier wrote:
Just to understand this on a slightly different note;

If an airline is on the banned list for flights by EU or US-FAA, do they give travel advisories to their people wishing to travel to such places and with such info (i.e banned airlines)? Something like say what China does telling their locals which countries are safe to travel to and which are not.

It would make sense to if it isn't done so already, since they are "protecting" their citizens in a way and those airlines are anyways banned from flying to those continents/countries for safety purposes.

You have answered your own question. The EU Blacklist was drawn up few years ago when there was a successive plane crashes in a short span period. EU citizens are advised to avoid flying with these airlines/ specific aircraft under the airlines.

On June 14, 2018, European Commission removes all remaining Indonesian airlines that are not already removed from the list.

Source: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4131_en.htm
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:24 am

Here are latest comments from Edward Sirait, Lion Air’s CEO, the plane that crashed today suffered “a technical issue” on Sunday. He told reporters the plane was cleared to fly “according to procedure” but did not specify what the “technical issue” was. This plane previously flew from Denpasar to Jakarta and there was a report of a technical issue which had been resolved according to procedure, based on initial reports. Lion has 11 new 7M8's and none had suffered the same problem. At this point and time, there are no plans to ground the rest of its MAX 8 fleet.

Also, Australian government officials have been formally instructed not to fly on Lion Air, according to an email sent today, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade – applies to all Australian government contractors as well. Their official statement is the following:

“Following the fatal crash of a Lion Air plane on 29 October 2018, Australian government officials and contractors have been instructed not to fly on Lion Air. This decision will be reviewed when the findings of the crash investigation are clear”.
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:28 am

spacecadet wrote:
to me, the unreliable airspeed thing doesn't really explain anything. There's at least a lot more to the story, if that actually has anything to do with it to begin with.
They flew almost 40 miles in the wrong direction (ENE instead of E) so they must not have had much control over the plane.
Last edited by salttee on Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Flyingdevil737
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:28 am

adriaticus wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
Not to take away the focus from this sad situation; but is this a record from delivery to crash for any airline and/or aircraft made?

Nah. If I recall correctly, an A340-600 was destroyed on ground by the crew receiving it brand new from Airbus at Toulouse. It was some middle eastern airline. They received the AC and slammed it against a building or something before its very first pushback. I’m sure a fellow a.nutter will shield details.


It was an Etihad A340-600 (can’t remember the reg)
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the very first Fokker airplane built in the world. The Dutch call it the mother Fokker.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:32 am

juliuswong wrote:
jcancel wrote:
BestWestern wrote:

My only Lion air flight was cancelled. No email or anything from the airline.

I never flew malindo Malaysia (part of the same group) after one of my Uber drivers was a co-pilot for them. He needed the pocket money


1. It's sad since I never had such issues with the other LCCs I've taken (AirAsia X, HKExpress, VietJet, and Jetstar Japan). I recall HKExpress announced in advance which flights were affected by air operations issues or natural disasters.

2. It's especially sad when people in highly skilled professions have to take out second jobs since they're not being paid enough :(

It can well be that the co-pilot is not living within his means. Therefore to make such uninformed decision is pretty short sighted.


In malaysia? If the job paid competitive wages I doubt that living outside ones means was the issue.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:34 am

Isn't Lion Air the airline that instead of paying living wages to their employees they constructed a modern day company town with company stores and company schools for their employees? It's no small wonder that an airline with labor practices right out of the 1920s would have an abysmal safety record.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:35 am

hayzel777 wrote:
If there is no evidence of Gerry Soejatman's claim, Boeing needs to go and sue him for every dime he has.


Ever consider that whatever he said might have been taken out of context? Media is notorious for taking information & distorting it.
 
log0008
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:40 am

salttee wrote:
spacecadet wrote:
to me, the unreliable airspeed thing doesn't really explain anything. There's at least a lot more to the story, if that actually has anything to do with it to begin with.
They flew almost 40 miles in the wrong direction (ENE instead of E) so they must not have had much control over the plane.


They were on the Standard Instrument Departure and following it correctly
 
juliuswong
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:42 am

Jouhou wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
jcancel wrote:

1. It's sad since I never had such issues with the other LCCs I've taken (AirAsia X, HKExpress, VietJet, and Jetstar Japan). I recall HKExpress announced in advance which flights were affected by air operations issues or natural disasters.

2. It's especially sad when people in highly skilled professions have to take out second jobs since they're not being paid enough :(

It can well be that the co-pilot is not living within his means. Therefore to make such uninformed decision is pretty short sighted.


In malaysia? If the job paid competitive wages I doubt that living outside ones means was the issue.

Not sure if you are local Malaysians, but there are more than what meets the eyes. I do not want to take title out of topic, you are welcome to send me a private message.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:43 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
So sorry for the loss of life in this accident. That is the sad thing.

We will of course have to figure out the cause, but at this point there are many, many potential things that could have brought this airplane down. While speculating is fine, jumping to conclusions is not ("it must have been ..."). It could be:

* a mechanical issue
* preparation or storage problem (like pitot tube covers or insects)
* a cargo problem (center of gravity or fire)
* pilot disorientation (although if they were flying in the morning light then that is perhaps harder to see)
* something "normal" like weather or engine or other malfunction that then gets mishandled into a serious problem



Yes a centre of gravity, ? overload problem, or incorrectly set horizontal stabiliser for aircraft load, could possibly explain it.

Ruscoe
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:44 am

spacecadet wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
I noticed, that the first altitude drop already occurred during the turn after take off. So the problem started to appear very early.


Flightaware doesn't show that deviation. I don't know the difference in how the two sites gather their data, but in the absence of anything corroborating, and in the presence of another data source that's *not* corroborating, I'd be more likely to chalk this up to statistical noise more than anything else (as I mentioned before).


Well actually both sites indicate a roughly 600 feet drop in altitude at 12:22, during the left turn.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/LNI ... K/tracklog

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 0#1e5ff318

The speed increase is also consistent with the altitude drop.

It really looks somehow weird, could it be that they had an issue with the control surfaces? I know the data is not 100% reliable, but it also seems that when the final altitude drop first starts - it doesn't impact the airspeed. Which could mean that the plane didn't fly straight. Then when the final drop starts, also the speed goes through the roof.

How about a possible tailstrike on takeoff?
 
avier
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:44 am

juliuswong wrote:
You have answered your own question. The EU Blacklist was drawn up few years ago when there was a successive plane crashes in a short span period. EU citizens are advised to avoid flying with these airlines/ specific aircraft under the airlines.

On June 14, 2018, European Commission removes all remaining Indonesian airlines that are not already removed from the list.

Source: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4131_en.htm


OK, was just trying to understand the advisory part more so. Since some posters on here state they were on holiday there and tried so and so airlines there and weren't offered their favourite western drink on board , despite it being banned from their continent. So was wondering if they receive the advisory or not.
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:48 am

@log0008
Now I see an airport directly under the straight line path to Pangkal Pinang. I didn't know that part of the world would sport another airport so close to Soekarno-Hatta. I thought it was open ocean. Sorry for the mispost.
 
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qf789
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:49 am

Boeing has issued a statement regarding JT610

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releas ... tem=130327
Forum Moderator
 
log0008
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:52 am

This a reportedly a filed incident report for the same aircraft from Yesterday

A: PK LQP, B737 Max 8

D: 28.10.2018

O: Airspeed unreliable and alt disagree shown after take off. STS was also running to the wrong direction, suspected because of speed difference. Identified that CAPT instrument was unreliable and handover control to FO. Continue NNC of Airspeed Unreliable and ALT disagree. Decide to continue flying to CGK at FL280, landed safely rwy 25L

R: DPS CGK LNI 043

E: AFML

R: Capt William Martinus/133031, FO M Fulki Naufan/ 144291
 
FlyingAY
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:53 am

hayzel777 wrote:
If there is no evidence of Gerry Soejatman's claim, Boeing needs to go and sue him for every dime he has.


Love the attitude: sue first, think then. In no country would it be illegal to say things like that. Free speech and so on. In some countries the editor-in-chief of the media agency would carry some responsibility if they print untrue claims.
 
VV
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:54 am

log0008 wrote:
There is something very wrong with the altitude on this flight based on FR24 they never got above 5300ft, every other aircraft departing in the same way is up around 18000ft by the point it diapered - more to this than pilot error imo


It is indeed bizarre, it did not climb as one would expect.
Did the pilot make any distress call?
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:55 am

I know some find it distasteful at this point to be questioning the 737max, but It's my understanding that those CFM-LEAP
engines with it introduced some exotic materials to the high temperature core and operate under a bit more extreme conditions,
something the GTF was trying to avoid. Lightsaber will have far better insight than me, but if there is a problem with the LEAP engine
then we all need to know FAST!!!!!!!! Remember when the DC-10 was introduced? Cargo door designs and engine maintenance procedures
led to several issues that didn't end so well. Or if you want to go back even further the Comet, it's window design and pressurisation issues
leading to inflight failures not ending so well.
 
bennett123
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:59 am

Firstly, this is no A v B.

Secondly, IF there is a defect with the B737 Max then this a huge blow for Boeing. It does not do Airbus any favours either.

Based on the information already on this thread, it seems likely that it NOT a design flaw.

Reference to control problems on the previous flight suggest that this COULD be a botched repair.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:07 am

YYJTurk wrote:
afterburner wrote:
Flyingdevil737 wrote:

Agreed......

(Why did it HAVE TO BE A 737MAX?!)

So is it more acceptable it isn't 737Max? Disgusting!


Both sickening comments. Shame on you!


I have to clarify, when a brand new plane crashed, it normally rules out reasons related to poor maintenance.
So it probably means 1) pilot error or 2) design fault

I am not caring more about the safety record of 737Max then those who lost their life this morning and not meaning it is more acceptable if the plane crashed is not a 737Max.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:13 am

spacecadet wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
I noticed, that the first altitude drop already occurred during the turn after take off. So the problem started to appear very early.


Flightaware doesn't show that deviation. I don't know the difference in how the two sites gather their data, but in the absence of anything corroborating, and in the presence of another data source that's *not* corroborating, I'd be more likely to chalk this up to statistical noise more than anything else (as I mentioned before).

The raw ADS-B data, from the following post, show the drop too. Showing consistent VS too.
edu2703 wrote:
Image


I dont believe, that raw ADS-B data would be so inaccurate, that the drop could be considered just as "noise".

One explanation for the difference could be, that FlightAware does not have the coverage in that corner of Jakarta to receive ADS-B of low flying aircraft.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
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afterburner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:21 am

bennett123 wrote:
Firstly, this is no A v B.

No. This has become Boeing v Lion Air.
 
VV
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:22 am

I would like to ask a question again.
Did the pilot make a distress call?

And finally another question.
Did anyone notice if there had been a tentative to turn back to Jakarta?

Thanks.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:22 am

spacecadet wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
I noticed, that the first altitude drop already occurred during the turn after take off. So the problem started to appear very early.


Flightaware doesn't show that deviation. I don't know the difference in how the two sites gather their data, but in the absence of anything corroborating, and in the presence of another data source that's *not* corroborating, I'd be more likely to chalk this up to statistical noise more than anything else (as I mentioned before).

The raw ADS-B data, from the following post, show the drop too. Showing consistent VS too.
edu2703 wrote:
Image


I dont believe, that raw ADS-B data would be so inaccurate, that the drop could be considered just as "noise".

One explanation for the difference could be, that FlightAware does not have the coverage in that corner of Jakarta to receive ADS-B of low flying aircraft.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:24 am

avier wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
You have answered your own question. The EU Blacklist was drawn up few years ago when there was a successive plane crashes in a short span period. EU citizens are advised to avoid flying with these airlines/ specific aircraft under the airlines.

On June 14, 2018, European Commission removes all remaining Indonesian airlines that are not already removed from the list.

Source: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4131_en.htm


OK, was just trying to understand the advisory part more so. Since some posters on here state they were on holiday there and tried so and so airlines there and weren't offered their favourite western drink on board , despite it being banned from their continent. So was wondering if they receive the advisory or not.



Ummm... have you ever heard of bintang? They brew beer in Bali and have a local Palm wine called Arak... it's certainly not banned and GA serve champagne up the front all the time. There's one province that outlawed it, and its well... hardly the big smoke. Now back on topic. This is a relatively new design and a new aircraft so it's unusual to expect things to fail so quickly. If there is a design fault it needs to be identified fast. Even if it's something as simple as an oversight on something's design and procedures installing things. This aircraft will be one of the most common in the world soon, Boeing and GE need to be sending people there NOW!
 
Elshad
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:25 am

Lufthansa wrote:
I know some find it distasteful at this point to be questioning the 737max, but It's my understanding that those CFM-LEAP
engines with it introduced some exotic materials to the high temperature core and operate under a bit more extreme conditions,
something the GTF was trying to avoid. Lightsaber will have far better insight than me, but if there is a problem with the LEAP engine
then we all need to know FAST!!!!!!!! Remember when the DC-10 was introduced? Cargo door designs and engine maintenance procedures
led to several issues that didn't end so well. Or if you want to go back even further the Comet, it's window design and pressurisation issues
leading to inflight failures not ending so well.


I think it’s extremely unlikely that the engines were responsible for the erratic behaviour of the aircraft.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:25 am

VV wrote:
I would like to ask a question again.
Did the pilot make a distress call?

And finally another question.
Did anyone notice if there had been a tentative to turn back to Jakarta?

Thanks.


Yes, the pilot requested to go back shortly before the crash,
and the same plane has issues regrading the airspeed display in previous flight.
 
Bradin
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:25 am

VV wrote:
I would like to ask a question again.
Did the pilot make a distress call?

And finally another question.
Did anyone notice if there had been a tentative to turn back to Jakarta?

Thanks.


Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:27 am

VV wrote:
I would like to ask a question again.
Did the pilot make a distress call?

And finally another question.
Did anyone notice if there had been a tentative to turn back to Jakarta?

Thanks.


Yes. They wanted to return. They did not appear to succeed in turning around.
 
cpd
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:29 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
If there is no evidence of Gerry Soejatman's claim, Boeing needs to go and sue him for every dime he has.


Agreed. It is beyond appalling that someone who claims to be an aviation professional would claim such a thing. And that would be a slap in the face to the FAA as well since the certified the 737Max.


I'm guessing neither of you ever dealt with the media. Sometimes they will quite radically change what you actually said.

I'm also suspicious of the claims of this guy, but let's hold on a bit and not line him up in front of the proverbial firing squad.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:30 am

Flyingdevil737 wrote:
adriaticus wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
Not to take away the focus from this sad situation; but is this a record from delivery to crash for any airline and/or aircraft made?

Nah. If I recall correctly, an A340-600 was destroyed on ground by the crew receiving it brand new from Airbus at Toulouse. It was some middle eastern airline. They received the AC and slammed it against a building or something before its very first pushback. I’m sure a fellow a.nutter will shield details.


It was an Etihad A340-600 (can’t remember the reg)

A6-EHG.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
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airbuseric
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:36 am

VV wrote:
I would like to ask a question again.
Did the pilot make a distress call?


Yes they did.

VV wrote:
And finally another question.
Did anyone notice if there had been a tentative to turn back to Jakarta?


Yes, apparently they contacted ATC to return to the other airport in Jakarta, HLP. After that call, contact got lost.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
Redd
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 am

joeblow10 wrote:
METARs appear to show nothing that significant, other than SCT020. Interesting to note the plane does start “fluctuating” right as it passes 020, so the pitot theory can’t be ruled out


That's an interesting bit of info. Looks like it could have been spatial disorientation at SCT020 if the pilot had flown into clouds while having a false reading, but that doesn't explain the unstable 8 minutes at altitude with presumably a clear sky and a visible horizon. With a clear horizon and non-accurate speed/altitude reading, a bad pitot shouldn't be an issue... Looking at the flight radar data, it's clear that they;re having a difficult time maintaining level flight after leveling off at just above 5000ft. After about 8 min or so of some kind of struggle in maintaining altitude the 737 drops at over -7000ft/min into the sea.

With there being a clear and visible horizon it most likely wasn't and AF447 style of accident and seems to indicate some sort of troubles with the airplane or perhaps a struggle in the cockpit..
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:40 am

So there is an altitude drop when turning soon after take off and again at the end when the pilot rewquests a return and is turning, only this last one results in loss of control and the subsequent crash.
What causes an aircraft to loose altitude when turning?

If a 737 is anything like the small aircraft I used to fly, it was necessary to put some elevator in to prevent height loss.
Ruscoe
 
KICT
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:41 am

Just had a look at the "airspeed unreliable" chapter in the Max-9 QRH...
Without getting into details, there are a lot of "keyholes" the pilots could have flown through that would have led to disaster. For example, if you are flying the flight director and have the auto-throttle engaged (both of which should be turned off in this scenario) this could explain the "erratic" track observed from the raw data. FDR will reveal the cause in short order once located.
RIP to the victims.
Last edited by KICT on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:50 am

4 passenger already found and presumed dead, 185 others remain missing according to this source.
http://sumsel.tribunnews.com/2018/10/29 ... -4-jenazah
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:54 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
...

Two more things:
- I have noticed the drop on FlightAware too. @SpaceCadet, why did you think it was not there?
- Another conclusion from looking at the tracked data: compared to earlier flights, this flight had a much wider first turn.

To me it seems, something happened right after take off, that made them incapable to fly a consistent climb and to turn with standard turn rate (or at least the usual turn rate).
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:57 am

Jouhou wrote:
I read the headline on Reuters and when I saw the number of passengers I knew it was a max.

How did you know? The Lion Air 737-800 also seats 189.

At least according to Seatguru: "Lion Air flies their Boeing 737-800 with 189 seats in a one-class configuration of Economy."

Or does their MAX carry less passengers?
 
gia777
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Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:58 am

There's chatters among the Lion staff, there were tech issue with regards to its air speed display on the day before, but Lion air said that it was already fixed
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
zakelwe
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:59 am

log0008 wrote:
This a reportedly a filed incident report for the same aircraft from Yesterday

A: PK LQP, B737 Max 8

D: 28.10.2018

O: Airspeed unreliable and alt disagree shown after take off. STS was also running to the wrong direction, suspected because of speed difference. Identified that CAPT instrument was unreliable and handover control to FO. Continue NNC of Airspeed Unreliable and ALT disagree. Decide to continue flying to CGK at FL280, landed safely rwy 25L

R: DPS CGK LNI 043

E: AFML

R: Capt William Martinus/133031, FO M Fulki Naufan/ 144291


Thanks for that information on the previous issue. Once the recorders are found I am sure it will become clear the cause , luckily the water is not very deep.

Very sad they could not get a safe ditch or return to base.
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 619
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:59 am

Ignorant question: What kind of trimming and pre-flight adjustments are necessary on this AC? Could a faulty loadsheet cause the plane to be uncontrollable?
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:00 am

log0008 wrote:
This a reportedly a filed incident report for the same aircraft from Yesterday

A: PK LQP, B737 Max 8

D: 28.10.2018

O: Airspeed unreliable and alt disagree shown after take off. STS was also running to the wrong direction, suspected because of speed difference. Identified that CAPT instrument was unreliable and handover control to FO. Continue NNC of Airspeed Unreliable and ALT disagree. Decide to continue flying to CGK at FL280, landed safely rwy 25L

R: DPS CGK LNI 043

E: AFML

R: Capt William Martinus/133031, FO M Fulki Naufan/ 144291


Where did you get this info? And also, if this was the case with JT610, how would that cause a crash?

My thoughts with the families and friends of all those on board.

Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGO < A320 HA-LWC < A320 HA-LWV < A320 SX-DVT < A320 SX-DVK < B733 LZ-BVU < E190 LZ-SOF < A320 D-AIUQ < DH8D OE-LGJ < A321 D-AIRN < A319 LZ-FBB < DH8D OE-LGO < B772 OE-LPC < A346 D-AIHX
 
Virtual737
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:03 am

gia777 wrote:
Air Asia = they flew to Singapore without proper authorization. enough said. If they can do that, let alone...the safety
Air Asia = flights delay, cancellation are very frequent without any compensation.


Do you mean Air Asia specific to Indonesia or Air Asia as a whole? I fly Air Asia in Asia very frequently and although delays are not uncommon, I've yet to have a cancellation (>100 flights).

Don't get me wrong, they are far from my favourite airline, but they operate many routes from my locality that others do not.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19390
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:06 am

Virtual737 wrote:
gia777 wrote:
Air Asia = they flew to Singapore without proper authorization. enough said. If they can do that, let alone...the safety
Air Asia = flights delay, cancellation are very frequent without any compensation.


Do you mean Air Asia specific to Indonesia or Air Asia as a whole? I fly Air Asia in Asia very frequently and although delays are not uncommon, I've yet to have a cancellation (>100 flights).

Don't get me wrong, they are far from my favourite airline, but they operate many routes from my locality that others do not.


Either way tou can't generalise since Air Asia is not one airline. Each of the Air Asias operates under a different certificate, with common marketing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
loalq
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 am

Will the market pull a Bobby Axelrod and short Boeing? If this is established to be a birth defect it wont go down well for them. Maybe they will take a hit regardless, until the time its proven otherwise. The fact that it is a brand new airplane plays against them now.

RIP to the victims and families, a very sad day.
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1154
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:08 am

Elshad wrote:
I think it’s extremely unlikely that the engines were responsible for the erratic behaviour of the aircraft.

An engine issue can distract the flight crew. Any other malfunction could do so too, though.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19390
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:09 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
log0008 wrote:
This a reportedly a filed incident report for the same aircraft from Yesterday

A: PK LQP, B737 Max 8

D: 28.10.2018

O: Airspeed unreliable and alt disagree shown after take off. STS was also running to the wrong direction, suspected because of speed difference. Identified that CAPT instrument was unreliable and handover control to FO. Continue NNC of Airspeed Unreliable and ALT disagree. Decide to continue flying to CGK at FL280, landed safely rwy 25L

R: DPS CGK LNI 043

E: AFML

R: Capt William Martinus/133031, FO M Fulki Naufan/ 144291


Where did you get this info? And also, if this was the case with JT610, how would that cause a crash?

My thoughts with the families and friends of all those on board.


If you have unreliable airspeed information, you're having a very bad day. Since we are taught to fly off the flight directors, if said FDs are receiving bad data they can easily lead you astray. At low altitude, there is little time to react.

Once unreliable airspeed is discovered, e.g. a discrepancy between the speed displays, or things like pitch down with a decrease in speed, the procedure typically involves switching off flight directors and autoflight, then setting a known pitch and power to stabilise the aircraft. Only then would you troubleshoot. Obviously easier in visual conditions.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
loalq
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:18 am

In this case Id suppose an experienced crew would proceed to go manual and keep some pre-defined settings flying straight and level while troubleshooting the matter, remember "aviate" comes first. For some reason this crew apparently panicked and decided to turn around immediately, which might have expedited a negative outcome.
Last edited by loalq on Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19390
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:25 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
log0008 wrote:
Same flight yesterday to today

Image


Pitots? That just looks really erratic.

No stall, urgent RTB request. Control issues?


You can't tell if there was a stall or not from that readout, even assuming the airspeed on that graph is the actual airspeed experienced by the aircraft.

Aircraft can stall at any speed and any attitude.
Last edited by Starlionblue on Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
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