Finally I can get a day of rest... so here goes...
The BBC piece noted above contains the following:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"
never heard of this problem or do we just have a troll looking for 30 seconds of notoriety???
It was a misquote.
I remember specifically that I said, "this flight seemed to have problems in maintaining a smooth straight and level flight".
That morning I was woken up by a call from my friend who told me about the crash. I immediately looked at FR24's data and thought, "this looks like an air data problem" (Don't ask me how I 'guessed' that, but seeing the filled out version of maintenance log reaching my phone within a few hours surely gave me a chill down my spine).
As soon as I put the phone down, the BBC called me.
Sorry, am not a troll looking for 30 seconds notoriety.
I can't remember which journo called me from the BBC and made that quote. I just chatted to another one I know from the same office who called me that day, she seems to remember that I also said what I meant was the specific flight in question and not the type in general. Hopefully the misquote can be corrected on monday. We'll see..
Does anyone know anything more on what he is talking about here? Or is it a case of media misreporting where he could have been just referring to the accident aircraft's ill-fated flightpath.
It happens... sadly
Unfotunately, some people are just too salty about it.
I haven't heard of these problems either, but I can assure you Mister Soejatman is not a troll.
Thank you. Those who know me personally here, do know me!
He also used to be an active member of this forum.
I still come here from time to time.
This is a place where I started my obsession with technical issues of airplanes. It is one of my "roots"...
If that is a forum member on this board, then hopefully he'll explain himself.
And here I am. Explained above.
I was inundated by calls from the airline, other airlines, the NTSC, the DGCA and countless media calls that day that I simply couldn't get back to the BBC to tell them early on about the misquote.
What I don't understand is how the Indonesian government didn't know that AirAsia Indonesia was flying that route without permission..."
The airline, the competitors, the airport, and the ATC are also still asking that question to this day. Without permission the slot wouldn't have been allocated. The airline's appeal seems to have been ignored. I have heard that the then minister was basically launching a personal vendetta as one of his friends was onboard, however, no one is willing to go on record on this.
Boeing's legal staff would be busy if they are suing everyone who's critical of their products.
Boeing actually has my phone number.
They can call me for an explanation.
I REFUSE to get on Lion Air, with their 18 year old pilots.
Me too... not because of their safety, but their passengers, are just too damn scary for me... I hate being on the same boarding gate as their flight.
Geez, thanks for that. As I was reading this topic this morning for the first time since the crash, the inundation surrounding this event made me forget that had posted that earlier. Lack of rest I guess...
His initial conclusions without root cause analysis are always wrong. But he is a one-man show, dines with aviation minister and on TV critique of government and consultant to everyone.
Which minister? The one during the Air Asia crash?
Just so that people don't get the wrong idea, for public record, to this date, I have not dined with any Indonesian transport minister.
And yes, when I'm wrong with an analysis, please do so say so. It's never a sin to criticize someone objectively. It makes us all better
https://news.detik.com/berita/d-4278530 ... -penumpang
A passenger on the same plane the night before from Denpasar Bali to Jakarta has the following story to relate regarding her flight:
- Late boarding, scheduled 6.15pm to 7.30pm
- During wait for puchback, ac shuts off intermittently
- Plane pushed back, heading to runway, experienced technical issue and return to gate, no explanation
- Stayed at gate about 30 minutes, ac shut down, very hot cabin conditions (children throwing up), no explanation
- Some passengers forced door to open to deplane (due to intolerable conditions without ac)
- Ground crew as confused as passengers, a ground crew admitted bad coordination with Lion Air plane crew
- Passengers asked to return to plane for engine checking
- Announced that take off would proceed
- 10 minutes after announcement, plane still at gate, with cabin light power flickering on and off
- Eventually taxied to the runway for take off
- Unusual right engine noise, as if it is working extra hard and surging constantly all the way from denpasar to jakarta
- Landed safely in jakarta
This has been proben to be false. Some tv personality or so, posted that on her social media, only for planegeeks to point out to her that her aircraft was not PK-LQP. She did not fly on JT043 but on JT033 (if I remember correctly) and that her aircraft was a 737NG not a Max. She has since apologized publicly for that.
Only mistakenly? Or intentionally too? Could the flight data we've seen show some kind of in-cockpit-struggle followed by a intentional dive?"
OMG! This is too soon for this for speculation... come on!
I've talked to those who knew both of the pilots, and also a former training captain at the airline. His description of their characters while does not rule out any potential CRM breakdowns, does not make "intentional dive" as a likely cause. However, this is a.net...
I'm unfamiliar with the millenial-era 737's and this system, but would an altitude and IAS disagree really impact the trim?
I believe the pitch control system remains the same. Indicated airspeed comes from the Pitot-Static system through the ADR and onto the displays. There is however, an elevator feel computer or a feel computer that covers all primary control surfaces, which has it's own pitot system separate from the ones the rest of the aircraft use, and that if I remember correctly provides an artifical feel (simulating wind resistance) on the control yoke. If so, an unreliable airspeed would make the yoke resistance forces "feel" out of place. That's probably why we see the FEEL DIFF PRESS (or something) in the maintenance log.
So the actual actuator system for the elevator didn't change? Because an elevator issue could be one possible explanation for the observed data, no?
2. The second is related to the dynamic air pressure supply to the Elevator Feel Computer. It receives dynamic pressure from the two pitot tubes mounted on either side of the vertical stabilizer. When the computer receives an eratic signal it’d be the same as the pressure drop and the light illuminates. (failed probe heater and icing conditions)
3. The third is related to the Stall Management and Yaw Damper (SMYD), and a so called Elevator Feel Shift module (EFS), which creates a ±4 times higher forward control column force when approaching the stall region. This force uses a reduced system A pressure and when this reducer fails, opening prematurely providing a higher than normal A system pressure to the feel actuator, the FEEL DIFF PRESS also illuminates after 30 seconds.
Aha!!!! Thanks for this... was looking for this a while back. That point #3, is quite worrying. I'm trying to dig into my sources here because I heard the AOA vane may have been replaced the day before or something like that... still trying to get confirmation.
GS probably comes from a GPS source, or FlightRadar24 calculates it based of time/distance of position data.
GS speed is from onboard GPS source and transmitted by the aircraft.
There is a problem in Indonesian aviation but it is not confined to any airline in particular. The EU blacklisting of all Indonesian carriers shows that. And when aviation seems bad, don't even think of stepping foot on an indonesian road or boarding a ship. I've done that and never feared more for my life. I would still happily fly Lionair (not Sriwijaya Air though - too much duct tape for my taste).
The problem was real. We are now dealing with the remnants of the problem a the EU blacklisting has been lifted recently. And yes, the roads and ships here... no no for me...
I don't fly LionAir, not because of safety, but because their passengers are too damn scary! I really wouldn't want to be in an aircraft incident with them, let alone an accident. If I fly a LionAir group aircraft, I stick to BatikAir.
Sriwijaya? Too much duct tape? Finally I have someone in a.net who has also seen too much duct tape there at sometime in our lives!
Also, GPS without air data will give you ground speed, not IAS. Much better than nothing of course.
There are conflicting reports that the crew either asked "what's our/my speed" to ATC or asked "what's our/my groundspeed" to ATC... I hope the latter....
Pilot training and knowledge are the deciding factors.
LCC or not, Indonesia or not... THIS is absolutely correct, and limited to pilots, but also all persons with a safety role, no matter how small.
What I was interested in here is airspeed - since the ADS-B data only shows groundspeed, I plotted that in blue, and then took the square sum (sqrt(a^2 + b^2)) of the groundspeed in knots and vertical speed in knots to find an approximate airspeed in KTAS, assuming still air. That's plotted in grey. It shows an estimated airspeed of 472 KTAS at the time of the final ADS-B return.
Ah, this is what've been looking for! Thanks
Not a nice number.
Eye witnesses are important in any investigation. They are often accurate. What an eye witness should not do is reconstruct what they saw. "Just the facts, ma'am" Skilled investigators are able to take disparate eye witness data, assess its likely quality, and put it into context. And note: the fishermen are not explaining why the plane crashed, they are simply stating what they saw. Useful, but not infallible data.
Being in an air-accident prone country, one thing I've learnt about air accidents in Indonesia: 90% of witnesses who try to make it to the media, are liars!
However, the less descriptive and less fantastic the statement, usually, the more correct they are. Fantastic as in sensationalistic...
This two fishermen's statement does not come unto the Indonesian "sensationalistic statement", so it makes sense... albeit I think there's a mistranslation. What I heard about these 2 fishermen is that they saw the plane hit the water first, then hear the sound. Which makes sense.
My trust only with Garuda Indonesia - Citilink - Sriwijaya (yes). These 3 airlines you can count on them. As for Batik Airlines, they are still under Lion Group. Regardless what happened to the Lion accident, still, there is no excuse that the plane suffered technical issues the day before and they did not perform the repair for whatever reason 100% otherwise the accident will not occurred. Sure, they could say they performed the safety check under boeing guidelines...but who knows? Just like Adam Air, they notorious in cheating the safety check. Of course the Lion Air management will say we did the repair and the plane was good to go. Like hell they gonna say...yes we flew the broken plane. The amount compensation given by the Lion Air also a joke... $500 per passenger for burial process and $1000 for immediate cash relief and $5000 for accident compensation. I still can't believe the government did not shut down this airlines long time ago. If Qantas never involved in accident means they have a very solid system in safety check. So again there is no excuse for this accident. Avoid Lion at all cost!
1. You don't know what they did to the airplane the day before. You won't have a clue.
2. One of those 3 airlines above there I wouldn't even want to touch let alone get on board unless I really really have to. I know too many people who told me how things work there (not just the haters, but those who somehow love the company), and you putting it in that list, to me strengthens my view on point #1.
3. $5000 for accident compensation? That's the IMMEDIATE compensation. The total is much much larger (over 1 Billion IDR according to the government regulation on air accident compensation).
Never say never. Solid safety checks are just quality assurances and not absolute assurances. There are no absolute assurances that air accidents will not happen to an airline (no matter how good), except for grounding the airline.
Lion Air Group just fired their Director Technical Operation today
Let me correct you on this: Lion Air Group has temporarily relieved Lion Air's Director of Engineering to assist the investigation process and has put in a temporary replacement.
That guy who was "grounded" has only been on the job for a few weeks. His previous job was Director of Engineering at Batik Air.
The reason why people think he got fired is because the media misunderstood what the minister said... he said "temporarily relieved of duty", and the media quoted "terminated". It got so out of control that a few hours later the ministry has to make a press conference to clarify what the minister actually said (Which one media who paid attention, got correctly)... What a waste of time for the ministry...
The airline, spooked by the previous transport minister's reaction on the previous accident (who basically ended up being a megalomaniac dictator on how the accident was handled), made the wrong press release statement too.
Sad... We worked hard as hell up to 2014... our accident rates were still going down, even with that accident in 2014... and one person's reaction, changed all that, and basically blew over 5 years of hard work by the industry in implementing safety management systems, just culture and no-blame environments, etc, into an environment where submitting a safety report can lead to dismissal or punishment for "wrong doing"... by the government... We do not want to go back to those dark days where safety management system was secondary to public appeasement!
Even assuming perfection is possible can lead to hubris.
It leads to accidents...
you can see the terrible CRM and state of training for pilots in the Lion Air Group(this guy is employed by Batik Air). In some videos when the FO is PF and the Captain is PM, he retracts flaps etc. without any callout from the FO. Even worse, in one of the videos when the FO is PF on the landing, they forgot to arm the spoilers. The captain notices right on touchdown and manually pulls the lever and laughs about it. Terrible, absolutely terrible
It appears that many people can't wait for this guy to retire. Btw, he's in Lion Air, not Batik Air.
Any maintenance that involves air speed indicatior altitude, primary flight system or major parts of the plane, a test flight must be performed. Changing light bulbs? no need test flight. Use common sense.
No, not even your beloved (and may I say, loss-making) Garuda does that unless the manuals say so.
Use your common sense. Go and obtain an aircraft's approved troubleshooting manual, MEL, and AMM... then we can talk.
Pretty much my contemplation in a nutshell, here. For all the talk about pitot tube issues, unreliable airspeed indicators etc., the possibilities of spatial-D etc. - there are two big discerning differences with this Lion Air flight. 1) flight was during daylight in fine weather/visibility (except if in some of the scattered clouds), and 2) flight only topped out at 5,000ft.
Fine weather was near the airport. I live a west of HLP/WIHH airport, and the airplane flew some 8NM from my house. At 9AM it was cloudy with BKN to OVC over my house and to the northeast and southeast... I suspect it would have been cloudier in the morning... Unfortunately, I don't know how high the cloud tops were... But to me, there is always a possibility that the aircraft entered IMC from time to time. We'll have to wait though...
Yesterday I had enough with politicians trying to get the spotlight in this accident. A member of parliament went on radio yesterday to criticize the SAR agency for "moving too slowly" and saying that "collecting airplane debris instead of bodies / bodyparts is a waste of public funds"... In disgust, the radio station put me on air within 5 minutes and I almost lost my temper...
And then this morning, this morning, we lost one SAR diver due to decompression
If I see that member of parliament I might end up getting arrested for assault and battery!