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kiowa
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Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:46 pm

The Lion Air incident got me looking at safety ratings of US airlines. Most US carriers were a perfect 7/7. Southwest scores a dismal 3/7. I did minimal research to see if this was because of the 737 or if it was due to the fatality last year or perhaps a cumulative value. The website, although containing lots of info, did not explain their reasons real well.

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/
 
flyguy84
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:50 pm

This is how they come up with their ratings... It appears Southwest loses 3 stars for not being IOSA certified as most other major carriers are.

https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-criteria/
SFO
 
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FA9295
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:53 pm

I had heard somewhere that despite WN1380 back in April, their safety record was actually one of the better ones...
 
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Polot
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:55 pm

It actually explains it real well. There are 7 possible stars. 3 based on their IOSA rating, 1 if not on EU blacklist, 1 if no fatality in past 10years, 1 if FAA endorsed, 1 Star is ICAO country audit meets 6-8 ICAO safety parameters. WN has had a fatality in past 10 years, and does not have a IOSA rating (which is an optional audit), hence only 3/7 stars.

Now does that “safety rating” actually mean anything? No.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:56 pm

From https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-criteria/

Is the airline IOSA certified?

If yes three stars are awarded; if not, no star is given.

Has the airline maintained a fatality free record for the past 10 years?

If yes the airline is awarded a full star; if not then no star is given.

A fatality is deemed as the death of crew and/or passengers whilst on board the aircraft due to an accident. If deaths occurred through acts of terrorism, highjackings OR pilot suicide they have not been included. If an airline suffered a fatal accident through no fault of its own such as a runway incursion on the active runway (an incident where an unauthorized aircraft, vehicle or person is on a runway) this has also not been included.

One star is deleted from the rating if the airline has had any fatalities to passengers or crew in the prior 10 years. It is our view – and that of our safety consultants – that it takes up to 10 years for an airline’s safety culture to change after an accident. It can also take up to 10 years for the airline to replace older aircraft types, upgrade avionics or systems that may have contributed to the accident.


That’s why that website has removed 4 stars from Southwest - you can see the breakdown at https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-r ... ating=4140

Basically the website places significant value on IOSA certification, and also make no differentiation between an accident where a single passenger is killed, and one where all passengers, along with the aircraft, are lost. They probably need to be a bit more up front with that methodology, rather than placing it down two links.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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Polot
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:00 pm

Fun fact, according to that website Lionair has a safety rating of 6/7, only losing a star due to fatality requirement.

Now think for a moment, even before the 737Max8 crash do you think Lionair, with its apparent 3 star IOSA ranking, is safer than Southwest? ;) Proof enough there about how meaningless the rating is.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
n471wn
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:01 pm

Talk about a worthless safety site—-kind of like judging a beauty contest. SWA loses ONE Passenger life since they started in June 1971 and some idiot rates them a 3 out of 7—laughable...
 
Prost
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:03 pm

I think Polot’s example pretty much shuts down the usefulness of these ratings.
 
Prost
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:05 pm

n471wn wrote:
Talk about a worthless safety site—-kind of like judging a beauty contest. SWA loses ONE Passenger life since they started in June 1971 and some idiot rates them a 3 out of 7—laughable...

Southwest 1248 caused a fatality of a child in a car when they went off the runway. No, it wasn’t one of the passengers, but I don’t think the lives outside of a plane are any less valuable than the ones inside.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:12 pm

It is a joke. Southwest has not had a plane crash with fatalities on board in its history, and to my knowledge has only had two fatalities in all. One was on the ground from an overrun accident, and the other was due to an uncontained engine failure. The irony here is that the one due to the overrun, which was absolutely the airline’s fault, does not count against them since the fatality was not a passenger, while the one due to the engine failure, which almost certainly was not the airline’s fault, does. As for me, Southwest is my first choice when flying domestically and remains so. And I consider them one of the safest airlines in the world.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
alggag
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:19 pm

SEPilot wrote:
It is a joke. Southwest has not had a plane crash with fatalities on board in its history, and to my knowledge has only had two fatalities in all. One was on the ground from an overrun accident, and the other was due to an uncontained engine failure. The irony here is that the one due to the overrun, which was absolutely the airline’s fault, does not count against them since the fatality was not a passenger, while the one due to the engine failure, which almost certainly was not the airline’s fault, does. As for me, Southwest is my first choice when flying domestically and remains so. And I consider them one of the safest airlines in the world.


There was a third fatality back in 2000 that came about when a passenger attempted to breach the cockpit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest ... light_1763

Of course, that wasn't a result of an aircraft accident but I suppose it's debatable on how much the crew was involved or if they could have done something differently.
 
n471wn
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:20 pm

SEPilot wrote:
It is a joke. Southwest has not had a plane crash with fatalities on board in its history, and to my knowledge has only had two fatalities in all. One was on the ground from an overrun accident, and the other was due to an uncontained engine failure. The irony here is that the one due to the overrun, which was absolutely the airline’s fault, does not count against them since the fatality was not a passenger, while the one due to the engine failure, which almost certainly was not the airline’s fault, does. As for me, Southwest is my first choice when flying domestically and remains so. And I consider them one of the safest airlines in the world.


You are 100% correct—-SWA is my airline for life and flying them tomorrow on a MAX 8!
 
MCIRNO
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:25 pm

Wouldn't the plain, simple truth about factoring in the number of safe flown passenger miles be an actual way to determine who's the "safest" airline to fly? It's like the US's most-delay prone airlines articles...and somehow Hawaiian Airlines is practically rated as the least delayed :lol:
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:37 pm

Most LCCs are not IOSA audited. Negative 3 stars.
One fatality. Negative 1 star.

A perfect example of how skewed these aviation rating systems are.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:37 pm

alggag wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
It is a joke. Southwest has not had a plane crash with fatalities on board in its history, and to my knowledge has only had two fatalities in all. One was on the ground from an overrun accident, and the other was due to an uncontained engine failure. The irony here is that the one due to the overrun, which was absolutely the airline’s fault, does not count against them since the fatality was not a passenger, while the one due to the engine failure, which almost certainly was not the airline’s fault, does. As for me, Southwest is my first choice when flying domestically and remains so. And I consider them one of the safest airlines in the world.


There was a third fatality back in 2000 that came about when a passenger attempted to breach the cockpit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest ... light_1763

Of course, that wasn't a result of an aircraft accident but I suppose it's debatable on how much the crew was involved or if they could have done something differently.

I was not aware of this. But again, this would be held against them as well according to the rules had it happened in the last 10 years. And no WN personnel were even involved.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:40 pm

This is very bad math.
 
smartplane
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:43 pm

Insurers use their own KT based modelling, separate (with different weightings) for hull and liability, which include areas of operation (to/from), number of movements, IOSA rated and rating score.

Major financiers often purchase insurer modelling, which they incorporate into their own tools (bespoke credit scoring on steroids) for funding approvals and margins.

Insurers and financiers reward airlines that are IOSA compliant, and financially penalise those that are not compliant or that fail. Some will not write business if not IOSA compliant.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:50 pm

Using fatal accidents as any kind of safety measure (predictor of future) is expressly-rejected by NASA, because they are so rare as to be statistically-meaningless.

There are many other factors to take into account when looking at "safety", and this dumb web site really touches none of them.
 
neutronstar73
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:04 pm

Polot wrote:
Fun fact, according to that website Lionair has a safety rating of 6/7, only losing a star due to fatality requirement.

Now think for a moment, even before the 737Max8 crash do you think Lionair, with its apparent 3 star IOSA ranking, is safer than Southwest? ;) Proof enough there about how meaningless the rating is.


I think you bring up a very good point. Looks like someone is trying to unnecessarily rough up Southwest
 
slvrblt
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:35 pm

Polot wrote:
Fun fact, according to that website Lionair has a safety rating of 6/7, only losing a star due to fatality requirement.

Now think for a moment, even before the 737Max8 crash do you think Lionair, with its apparent 3 star IOSA ranking, is safer than Southwest? ;) Proof enough there about how meaningless the rating is.


Quite true..........I may be wrong, but aside from some ''ooops'' moments....I can't remember Southwest ever having a major fatal accident, in other words, a fatal plane crash with heavy loss of life.
..everything works out in the end.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:27 am

smartplane wrote:
Insurers use their own KT based modelling, separate (with different weightings) for hull and liability, which include areas of operation (to/from), number of movements, IOSA rated and rating score.

Major financiers often purchase insurer modelling, which they incorporate into their own tools (bespoke credit scoring on steroids) for funding approvals and margins.

Insurers and financiers reward airlines that are IOSA compliant, and financially penalise those that are not compliant or that fail. Some will not write business if not IOSA compliant.

Something tells me that the 745 airplane deep WN doesn’t struggle to get financing or insurance
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
smartplane
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:57 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Insurers use their own KT based modelling, separate (with different weightings) for hull and liability, which include areas of operation (to/from), number of movements, IOSA rated and rating score.

Major financiers often purchase insurer modelling, which they incorporate into their own tools (bespoke credit scoring on steroids) for funding approvals and margins.

Insurers and financiers reward airlines that are IOSA compliant, and financially penalise those that are not compliant or that fail. Some will not write business if not IOSA compliant.

Something tells me that the 745 airplane deep WN doesn’t struggle to get financing or insurance

WN has no problems sourcing highly competitive finance and insurance. If you could find a similar sized airline, with the same fleet, flying fewer, longer routes (but the same average utilisation) in the US, WN would be paying a fraction more for their insurance.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:10 am

Worthless website and worthless rating. Fake news website. Sad.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
lowfareair
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:33 pm

This almost sounds like the site is somehow (directly or indirectly) affiliated with IOSA. Whether it is a good audit or not, I can't imagine an airline that meets everything else but the IOSA metric being considered as unsafe as an airline that has had multiple accidents with fatalities, is on the EU blacklist, and is not FAA endorsed. And as said before, these are fairly meaningless metrics to score airlines equally by, especially the fatality aspect.
 
BAeRJ100
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:59 pm

As soon as I saw the title, I thought "I bet it will be an AirlineRatings.com link"...

The founder of that site - Geoffrey Thomas - is touted as an Australian "aviation professional" but is nothing more than a glorified enthusiast. 7 West Media loves to parade him around in our newspapers and on tv when any sort of incident occurs, as if he is the hottest thing in the industry.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
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E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:28 pm

Let us now see, Southwest had a dead passenger this year, because of a known problem with aged CFM56 engines. While discussing with the FAA how fast they should inspect all similar engines, because of an earlier similar failure on a similar aged engine. It was an uncontained engine failure while in the air. The outcome could have been worse.
After the accident, inspections of the CFM56 engines went into overgear.

How is everything so perfect in the US of A and at Southwest?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:33 pm

neutronstar73 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Fun fact, according to that website Lionair has a safety rating of 6/7, only losing a star due to fatality requirement.

Now think for a moment, even before the 737Max8 crash do you think Lionair, with its apparent 3 star IOSA ranking, is safer than Southwest? ;) Proof enough there about how meaningless the rating is.


I think you bring up a very good point. Looks like someone is trying to unnecessarily rough up Southwest

Not necessarily.

But, giving Southwest 3 stars while giving Lion Air 6 stars shows the rating is skewed. The emphasis on the IOSA rating is somewhat ridiculous (it's almost half the rating): Canadian North, Air Inuit, Air North, Porter, Allegiant and Spirit all lose those 3 points.
 
n471wn
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:57 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Let us now see, Southwest had a dead passenger this year, because of a known problem with aged CFM56 engines. While discussing with the FAA how fast they should inspect all similar engines, because of an earlier similar failure on a similar aged engine. It was an uncontained engine failure while in the air. The outcome could have been worse.
After the accident, inspections of the CFM56 engines went into overgear.

How is everything so perfect in the US of A and at Southwest?


Please do your homework—-SWA actually and voluntary exceeded the requirement for engine inspections and the CFM56 engines are not now and never were “aged”. One dead passenger in a 47 year history—yes not perfect but alas close to perfect as any airline can get
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:58 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Let us now see, Southwest had a dead passenger this year, because of a known problem with aged CFM56 engines. While discussing with the FAA how fast they should inspect all similar engines, because of an earlier similar failure on a similar aged engine. It was an uncontained engine failure while in the air. The outcome could have been worse.
After the accident, inspections of the CFM56 engines went into overgear.

How is everything so perfect in the US of A and at Southwest?

Who said they were perfect or that America was perfect? You're the one stirring the pot.

Everyone recognizes the fatality onboard a WN aircraft. But with a fleet 700 strong and thousands of daily flights, it's absolutely laughable to put them in a lower category than Lion Air, who seems to have a nasty habit of writing off aircraft.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:41 pm

n471wn wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Let us now see, Southwest had a dead passenger this year, because of a known problem with aged CFM56 engines. While discussing with the FAA how fast they should inspect all similar engines, because of an earlier similar failure on a similar aged engine. It was an uncontained engine failure while in the air. The outcome could have been worse.
After the accident, inspections of the CFM56 engines went into overgear.

How is everything so perfect in the US of A and at Southwest?


Please do your homework—-SWA actually and voluntary exceeded the requirement for engine inspections and the CFM56 engines are not now and never were “aged”. One dead passenger in a 47 year history—yes not perfect but alas close to perfect as any airline can get


Not BEFORE the second accident.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:56 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Let us now see, Southwest had a dead passenger this year, because of a known problem with aged CFM56 engines. While discussing with the FAA how fast they should inspect all similar engines, because of an earlier similar failure on a similar aged engine. It was an uncontained engine failure while in the air. The outcome could have been worse.
After the accident, inspections of the CFM56 engines went into overgear.

How is everything so perfect in the US of A and at Southwest?

Who said they were perfect or that America was perfect? You're the one stirring the pot.

Everyone recognizes the fatality onboard a WN aircraft. But with a fleet 700 strong and thousands of daily flights, it's absolutely laughable to put them in a lower category than Lion Air, who seems to have a nasty habit of writing off aircraft.


If any other country would have delayed inspections after the first uncontained engine failure, waiting for the second to happen, we would hear a lot about that on this site It was a complete unnecessary, preventable accident. If the FAA and in this case Southwest would have done a similar high speed inspection program before the second engine failure, like they did after the second engine failure, this accident would not have happened. The number of engines to inspect, anyway not 1400 in that pool, did not seem to have mattered after the second accident.

The talking here about how it was crazy to give a good old USA airline a low safety rating, brought me to mention that not everything in the USA airline business is perfect. Southwest and the passengers were lucky this time, that engine failure could have crashed that frame.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:10 pm

smartplane wrote:
Insurers use their own KT based modelling, separate (with different weightings) for hull and liability, which include areas of operation (to/from), number of movements, IOSA rated and rating score.

Major financiers often purchase insurer modelling, which they incorporate into their own tools (bespoke credit scoring on steroids) for funding approvals and margins.

Insurers and financiers reward airlines that are IOSA compliant, and financially penalise those that are not compliant or that fail. Some will not write business if not IOSA compliant.

Southwest will just keep having to buy aircraft outright... Oh wait, that is their business model.

I wouldn't be surprised if they self insured with reinsurance for a huge liability.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
kiowa
Topic Author
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest safety rating 3 out of 7

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:12 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Let us now see, Southwest had a dead passenger this year, because of a known problem with aged CFM56 engines. While discussing with the FAA how fast they should inspect all similar engines, because of an earlier similar failure on a similar aged engine. It was an uncontained engine failure while in the air. The outcome could have been worse.
After the accident, inspections of the CFM56 engines went into overgear.

How is everything so perfect in the US of A and at Southwest?

Who said they were perfect or that America was perfect? You're the one stirring the pot.


Everyone recognizes the fatality onboard a WN aircraft. But with a fleet 700 strong and thousands of daily flights, it's absolutely laughable to put them in a lower category than Lion Air, who seems to have a nasty habit of writing off aircraft.


The ratings were before the latest crash. Did Lion Air have many deaths before this incident?

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