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NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:44 am

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
I have no idea why an airline needs a 'flagship' aircraft whatever that actually is


I have no doubt that you don't know what a flagship aircraft is (or at least pretend not to) but airlines such as QF, EK, SQ, TG, MH, KA, CA, BA know exactly what they are and how they are viewed by the traveling public.

I assume you're talking about having the biggest, shiniest, newest toy which you show off to market your airline.

As I said, why compete in that game, sounds like another version of the America's cup to me. As an investor, I would prefer the airline focus on getting the right equipment for the business.

Given a huge chunk of the travelling public lack awareness of different aircraft in the market it's not really much of an issue.

Gasman wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
Interestingly, numbers 1 and 3 on your list don't feature in QF's long-term plans while number 2 does but for how long I wonder....


Speculating, and clutching at straws - which you do with monotonous regularity in attempted defence of NZ.


No QF have said the A380 will be replaced under project sunrise when that future aircraft is ordered and the 774 is going, gone by 2020. QF have stated both so it's not speculating or clutching at straws.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:31 am

NZ6 wrote:
I assume you're talking about having the biggest, shiniest, newest toy which you show off to market your airline.


No, I'm talking about having a high end product somewhere in the fleet, and I hope for the benefit of NZ's passengers (I don't give a rat's about the shareholders) they address this. Whether you'd call an NZ 787 "high end" is a matter of opinion; but I'm simply pointing out that all of QF's long haul fleet are objectively better, and I doubt it's all by fluke.

NZ6 wrote:
No QF have said the A380 will be replaced under project sunrise when that future aircraft is ordered and the 774 is going, gone by 2020. QF have stated both so it's not speculating or clutching at straws.


Have QF said the A380 will be replaced under project sunrise? Can you provide a reference please? And yes, speculating about what MIGHT happen to the A330s (or A380s for that matter) in the future to make an argument that the current quality differences between NZ and QF's fleet aren't relevant is indeed clutching at straws.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:26 am

NZ6 wrote:
The more I think about the 78J and NZ the more I believe it's politics and big money talking.

I've heard from a number people around NZ Airbus is in the box seat. I assume Boeing know this given their 787 family don't have the legs of the similar sized Airbus option and their 77X family is arguably too big for many NZ routes.

A 77X order while providing the legs for new ventures comes with a massive aircraft, this is avoided under Airbus. I NZ won't get the A359 in addition to the 787 and 77X.

Is Boeing fearing an Airbus takeover of NZ by Airbus offering A359 'options' which will be set to replace the 789's within the next decade and are Boeing countering this with an amazing 78J deal keeping Boeing in the game so to speak?

I struggle to see the point of keeping the 789 and A359 long term if there was an alternative given they are both 280-320 frames depending on the LOPA and intended use. The key difference is the capable range with 3 class config is so much greater on one.

Boeing and RR would really appreciate the symbolism of a NZ 787 top up order. But the marketplace has ears everywhere, so if such an order happens, it's value will be quickly diminished by the price paid (magnitude of the incentive).

NZ is a conservative airline, safety videos notwithstanding. Unlikely there will be more 777X orders until the aircraft flies, and EK and LH make at least some of their order unconditional.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:32 am

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I assume you're talking about having the biggest, shiniest, newest toy which you show off to market your airline.


No, I'm talking about having a high end product somewhere in the fleet, and I hope for the benefit of NZ's passengers (I don't give a rat's about the shareholders) they address this. Whether you'd call an NZ 787 "high end" is a matter of opinion; but I'm simply pointing out that all of QF's long haul fleet are objectively better, and I doubt it's all by fluke.


There's nothing wrong with the 787 & 777 then. It's is the world leading, no! Does it need to be, no! Should it be, no!

It's about having the best equipment and product seeing as it's been turned into that for the market. New Zealand is largely end of line, well in fact it is all end of line except Australia and a small bit of South America <> Asia. NZ's overall wealth and demand for premium air travel is low.

When EK entered the Tasman in the early 2000's people expected the collapse of NZ/QF given the high-end product and cheap fares offered. Take a quick look at what happened. The majority voted.

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
No QF have said the A380 will be replaced under project sunrise when that future aircraft is ordered and the 774 is going, gone by 2020. QF have stated both so it's not speculating or clutching at straws.


Have QF said the A380 will be replaced under project sunrise? Can you provide a reference please? And yes, speculating about what MIGHT happen to the A330s (or A380s for that matter) in the future to make an argument that the current quality differences between NZ and QF's fleet aren't relevant is indeed clutching at straws.


While QF is refurbing the A380's project sunrise fleet is expected to replace their A380 fleet mid to late 2020's. QF is getting another 5-10 years out of them with the refurb, much like NZ did with their 772 and 77W recently. SQ, has taken their options and replaced the original frames with newer ones, QF could have taken the same path but aren't as committed to the type.
 
NYKiwi
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:46 am

In my humble opinion I feel the 787 suits NZ. I recently flew it IAH - AKL return and enjoyed the smaller aircraft only gripe is pitch is too tight and would hate to fly from ORD. That said the 777-200 and 300 replacement should be the same aircraft maybe mix of 350-900 and 350-1000. That way the have good mix and only 2 real long haul types similar to what they have today
 
Unclekoru
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:49 am

zkncj wrote:
Unclekoru wrote:

For those in the previous thread who stated that the QF J hard product in the 738 is not up to standard, I offer a different opinion. For three hour Trans Tasman flights, much like the NZ 767s, the recliner seat is actually quite comfortable (I prefer it to the hearing bone if I'm not sleeping) and when combined with what was a very professional and well delivered soft product, it was a pretty good product IMHO. I wouldn't choose it for the red eyes though. As far as Y goes, I would take the NZ regional A320 over the QF 738 any day.


QF’s J product on the 738, is really more like NZ’s PE product on the Tasman. NZ has more legroom typically in PE, than in QF’s 738 J.

While NZ only offers PE on the Tasman ex-AKL it’s really to the same or just above the standard of VA/QF’s 738 J.

VA probably has the wrost J product on the Tasman;
- 38” pitch
- no leg reset
- basic cabin devieder
- no inbuilt IFE
- meal service all tray based.


There's a significant difference between the QF J product on the 738 and what NZ delivers in U on their WB's. That difference admittedly is largely around service, food and the intimacy of the cabin. I agreed with your assessment of VA's business class product, it was pretty disappointing.



NZ have said on a number of occasions that the 787 could be part of the 77E replacement project.

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ may well be able to get good deals on more 787’s given the issues and the fact they were the launch customer for the 789.

Either way they likely aren’t going to launch ULH NYC/GRU etc .before 2022/23 and an initial ULH order for 4-6 frames they may be able to hold off a little and get delivery slots still in 2022/23 when they require them. In the mean time order some 787-10’s for Asia.


I agree, you'd have to think that they'd be able to negotiate a good deal given the circumstances. I had assumed that the 789 could well be a contender to replace the 77E at the skinner end of the network. Provided that the 78J can do ~5000nm with a decent payload, then I guess it could well be a reasonable fit for SIN, NRT, PVG or HKG too. Code 2 789s (some of the code 1 machines could be refitted to code 2) can still be used for IAH, EZE, ORD and YVR once the RR engine issues are sorted out. That then allows them to potentially better optimise the aircraft they choose to replace both the remaining 77E's and eventually the 77W's, either the A35X or the 779. Yes, the 779 is big, but it's stills smaller than the 744. I get the feeling they won't want to touch the 778 as it will have a CASM disadvantage compared to it's bigger sibling and most likely the A350-1000, the payoff being range and performance they don't really need other than for a possible ULR route, and would've thought you'd want to start such routes with a smaller aeroplane. The missing part of this puzzle might be tied up with whatever comes out of project sunrise.

Or it's all just a bad rumour...
It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4990
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:10 am

NZ6 wrote:
No QF have said the A380 will be replaced under project sunrise when that future aircraft is ordered and the 774 is going, gone by 2020. QF have stated both so it's not speculating or clutching at straws.

Source, please? No doubt the A380s will leave the fleet eventually but as part of PS I really doubt. IMHO, they will be around at least another 10 years if not 20 years.
Again IMHO when QF are finished with them they should be transferred to JQ, reconfigured for 600 - 700 passengers, no F, no J, small amount of W [say about half the upper deck], the rest Y and put on SYD/MEL - LAX & SYD/MEL - DXB [assuming the JV holds or some alternative if required], at least daily.. With appropriate fares it would be a gold mine, at the right price demand Australia - Europe/North America is essentially unlimited.

Gemuser
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:36 am

aerohottie wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ may well be able to get good deals on more 787’s given the issues and the fact they were the launch customer for the 789.

Either way they likely aren’t going to launch ULH NYC/GRU etc .before 2022/23 and an initial ULH order for 4-6 frames they may be able to hold off a little and get delivery slots still in 2022/23 when they require them. In the mean time order some 787-10’s for Asia.


For me, you'd need a bloody good deal.

Let's not forget the 789's where originally due for 2009ish (please correct me as I'm most likely wrong), then it was delay after delay after delay until they finally arrived in 2014. We're still receiving the fleet but we've already had a chunk of the fleet grounded with engine issues. In the meantime, Airbus has come in a delivered a frame with a similar size with a much greater range almost issue free.

Go back a calculate the cost this has had to NZ, not just with the engine issues but keeping the 763 flying, not just in the additional fuel and but also MX costs, crew costs, poor customer experience with recliner chairs in J, retrofitting the cabin etc.

The 787 nightmares have gone on almost a decade.

Yeah I agree. In hindsight, Air NZ of 2005-10 should have gone with a mixed 777-200ER and A330 fleet, or even A340/330 mix, with the fuel guarantees Airbus were giving for the A340 at that time, ala Lufthansa.
Would've made for an easy transition to A350's at this point in time


That would have been 2 new types at once potentially, the A330 in 2004 lacked the range, sure the 332 could have done Asia, probably would have been 270 seats or so, other than that PER/HNL and that’s about it for routes they flew back then. They would be glad they didn’t order another quad in the A340, not a bad aircraft however, they would have needed to have imo replaced the 744 if they got A340’s, maybe the 744 should have been replaced back then Or gradually by 2010 or so and they could have taken 77W’s much earlier, probably a mix 772/77W with some 763’s leaving but the rest having Business premier fitted which would have required the floor strengthening I believe. I doubt NZ was even thinking of a potential A350 15+ years later.

NZ6 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
PA515 wrote:
Steve Biddle of traveltalk.nz is suggesting Air NZ could order the 787-10 "before Christmas".

https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/are- ... ng-787-10/

Steve is usually well informed, but sometimes not fully informed. Three months ago Air NZ said the 77E replacement order would be announced about April 2019.

Maybe they will - they mentioned the -10 as an option in their last investor day presentation - but in the context of Asian routes as I recall. Biddle's idea that it would be an option as a 77E replacement for some North American' routes is downright wacky - NZ have been quite explicit that it doesn't have the payload/range for North America.


:checkmark:

The question really is, if this is true. What is more likely to happen..

1. 78J replace original older 789's (Being 6-8 years old at replacement time they are still very young)
2 78J replace buggered 789's quickly (somehow)
3. 78J fleet growth allowing 789s into new ports or additional services i.e HND 2x PVG/HKG/SIN
4. 78J fleet growth allowing increased capacity into Asia i.e SIN/HKG while deploying the 789 into IAH, YVR with higher year-round frequency.


5. What if fuel keeps rising? Some 777’s have early exit clauses I believe, 78J replace some 777’s.

Option 4 of yours would seem most likely imo followed by option 3.

NZ6 wrote:
The more I think about the 78J and NZ the more I believe it's politics and big money talking.

I've heard from a number people around NZ Airbus is in the box seat. I assume Boeing know this given their 787 family don't have the legs of the similar sized Airbus option and their 77X family is arguably too big for many NZ routes.

A 77X order while providing the legs for new ventures comes with a massive aircraft, this is avoided under Airbus. I NZ won't get the A359 in addition to the 787 and 77X.

Is Boeing fearing an Airbus takeover of NZ by Airbus offering A359 'options' which will be set to replace the 789's within the next decade and are Boeing countering this with an amazing 78J deal keeping Boeing in the game so to speak?

I struggle to see the point of keeping the 789 and A359 long term if there was an alternative given they are both 280-320 frames depending on the LOPA and intended use. The key difference is the capable range with 3 class config is so much greater on one.


Why order the 78J then? I would have thought 2 A359 configurations, heck the same A359 could probably do HKG/TYO/SIN/ORD/IAH/YVR.

The 78J as is can’t do outside of Asia/HNL so it doesn’t have the flexibility to go everywhere.

I doubt Boeing is fearing as such, just trying to sell aeroplanes, interesting times.
 
nz2
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:38 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:48 am

NYKiwi wrote:
In my humble opinion I feel the 787 suits NZ. I recently flew it IAH - AKL return and enjoyed the smaller aircraft only gripe is pitch is too tight and would hate to fly from ORD. That said the 777-200 and 300 replacement should be the same aircraft maybe mix of 350-900 and 350-1000. That way the have good mix and only 2 real long haul types similar to what they have today


I agree, it is a good sized plane for the airline, very comfortable and solid engineering behind it (current RR engine issues aside). I personally have only flown it in PE and think this is spot on, 2-3-2 cant be beat, big windows, nice humidity and good sized cabin thus top service, its a dream ! (liner)
 
Deepinsider
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:36 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:08 am

smartplane wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
The more I think about the 78J and NZ the more I believe it's politics and big money talking.

I've heard from a number people around NZ Airbus is in the box seat. I assume Boeing know this given their 787 family don't have the legs of the similar sized Airbus option and their 77X family is arguably too big for many NZ routes.

A 77X order while providing the legs for new ventures comes with a massive aircraft, this is avoided under Airbus. I NZ won't get the A359 in addition to the 787 and 77X.

Is Boeing fearing an Airbus takeover of NZ by Airbus offering A359 'options' which will be set to replace the 789's within the next decade and are Boeing countering this with an amazing 78J deal keeping Boeing in the game so to speak?

I struggle to see the point of keeping the 789 and A359 long term if there was an alternative given they are both 280-320 frames depending on the LOPA and intended use. The key difference is the capable range with 3 class config is so much greater on one.

Boeing and RR would really appreciate the symbolism of a NZ 787 top up order. But the marketplace has ears everywhere, so if such an order happens, it's value will be quickly diminished by the price paid (magnitude of the incentive).

NZ is a conservative airline, safety videos notwithstanding. Unlikely there will be more 777X orders until the aircraft flies, and EK and LH make at least some of their order unconditional.


Boeing and RR would appreciate a 787 top up order.!

Well Boeing would, I'm sure. Reading what's current here, the A350, is just so
close to the perfect choice for AirNZ. Here now, proven and working, A solid choice!
RR, on the other hand would win either way. And as we don't really know about any
further issues with the Trent 1000's, they may well want to sell the XWB instead.
 
Deepinsider
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:36 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:23 am

The vital payload/range capabilities of the various
new plane choices for AirNZ, will ultimately decide their choice.
(disregarding political/big money factors)

But from our purely customer point of view, AirNZ, like other carriers,
can completely ruin that decision with the wrong hard product interior.
For example, the truly terrible business class on the 767.
To be fair AirNZ never expected or planned to still have 767's as long
as they had to (787), but they could have renamed it premium economy
and chose not to!
Then they fitted the 787 with as we all know now, one row too many in J
reducing the appeal of their then popular layout, but was already losing the
leading edge in the market.
Then they did the dreaded 77W 3-4-3! say no more.

I like AirNZ, and I'm a committed future customer, but it's a bit like
pissing into wind, when they can so erode their advantages

787 vs 77X vs A350. Which ever , I beg them to move forward, not
backward with hard product. ( I would have liked to be a fly on the
wall when the various departments put their case for seating on the
787 v2. 7 good rows vs 9 substandard rows. the wrong team won! )

Of course, it's a business. (successful, so maybe the best team won!)
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:51 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
:checkmark:

The question really is, if this is true. What is more likely to happen..

1. 78J replace original older 789's (Being 6-8 years old at replacement time they are still very young)
2 78J replace buggered 789's quickly (somehow)
3. 78J fleet growth allowing 789s into new ports or additional services i.e HND 2x PVG/HKG/SIN
4. 78J fleet growth allowing increased capacity into Asia i.e SIN/HKG while deploying the 789 into IAH, YVR with higher year-round frequency.


5. What if fuel keeps rising? Some 777’s have early exit clauses I believe, 78J replace some 777’s.

Option 4 of yours would seem most likely imo followed by option 3.


That's possible however I'd imagine they'd look to keep them even for Tasman flying given the unknown end to the 789 engine issue and recent interior investment. If something was to happen I guess it would depend on when deliveries took place.

ZK-NBT wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
The more I think about the 78J and NZ the more I believe it's politics and big money talking.

I've heard from a number people around NZ Airbus is in the box seat. I assume Boeing know this given their 787 family don't have the legs of the similar sized Airbus option and their 77X family is arguably too big for many NZ routes.

A 77X order while providing the legs for new ventures comes with a massive aircraft, this is avoided under Airbus. I NZ won't get the A359 in addition to the 787 and 77X.

Is Boeing fearing an Airbus takeover of NZ by Airbus offering A359 'options' which will be set to replace the 789's within the next decade and are Boeing countering this with an amazing 78J deal keeping Boeing in the game so to speak?

I struggle to see the point of keeping the 789 and A359 long term if there was an alternative given they are both 280-320 frames depending on the LOPA and intended use. The key difference is the capable range with 3 class config is so much greater on one.


Why order the 78J then? I would have thought 2 A359 configurations, heck the same A359 could probably do HKG/TYO/SIN/ORD/IAH/YVR.

The 78J as is can’t do outside of Asia/HNL so it doesn’t have the flexibility to go everywhere.

I doubt Boeing is fearing as such, just trying to sell aeroplanes, interesting times.


Well, that's the conclusion I've come to also and why I stated NZ has the wrong plane in the 787.

NZ is nicely placed to increase capacity into the likes of SIN/HKG/ORD/IAH and arguably NRT/ORD, these are or have been fantastic 789 routes. Some could and do manage the size of the 772 well but would or have benefited from the efficiency of the 787, this is where the 78J comes in, well it does for those ports it can reach.

But this is where the A359 also comes in.... it offers the extra capacity with the extra range.

While, yes the 772 fleet size could reduce and/or the entire 777 fleet could be merged into a new single type 778 or A35K... So why order the 78J as you ask?
1. A deal too good to turn down
2. A sign NZ is going 778 and will remain all Boeing (10x 77X and 19x 787) ?
3. A reduced 777 replacement order for either the 77X or A35K and increased 787 fleet family, as above but leaving door open for Airbus.
5. False news and never happening.
6. Something odd like switching out some 789 frames for 78J
7. Jut growth - nothing more, 78J to pick up HKG/SIN and freeing up 2-3 units for new ventures. 772 plans continue as expected.

Looking at NZ's 772 replacement work, I'm almost 100% certain NZ is looking for an aircraft with long range in the 300-320 seat market, this leaves the A359 as the 778 will sit around 340-350ish.

But perhaps, looking at the longer routes, there really is only a small handful of ports where the A359 is needed over the 789 so is the A359 order going to be small and the A35K be similar i.e 5 of each? (point 2 and 3 above). The extra capacity into IAH/ORD will comes from the 789's taken off Asia and converted into Code 2 for America and enable year round services?

So many ways to skin the cat.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:10 pm

Deepinsider wrote:
The vital payload/range capabilities of the various
new plane choices for AirNZ, will ultimately decide their choice.
(disregarding political/big money factors)

But from our purely customer point of view, AirNZ, like other carriers,
can completely ruin that decision with the wrong hard product interior.
For example, the truly terrible business class on the 767.
To be fair AirNZ never expected or planned to still have 767's as long
as they had to (787), but they could have renamed it premium economy
and chose not to!
Then they fitted the 787 with as we all know now, one row too many in J
reducing the appeal of their then popular layout, but was already losing the
leading edge in the market.
Then they did the dreaded 77W 3-4-3! say no more.

I like AirNZ, and I'm a committed future customer, but it's a bit like
pissing into wind, when they can so erode their advantages

787 vs 77X vs A350. Which ever , I beg them to move forward, not
backward with hard product. ( I would have liked to be a fly on the
wall when the various departments put their case for seating on the
787 v2. 7 good rows vs 9 substandard rows. the wrong team won! )

Of course, it's a business. (successful, so maybe the best team won!)


I agree with the 767 Premium product, while it wasn't a choice to keep the aircraft as long as they did but it was a choice to keep calling it 'Business Class'. I was very vocal at the time around this and was shot down very quickly.

Apparently 'Business Premier' and 'Business Class' suggests there is a difference in the offering. I think the suggestion I made at the time was to label is 'Business Lite' but was seen introducing a 'new product' which was going to be removed in the near future...

As for not calling it Premium Economy, I tend to agree with this, it was seen as confusing the market by introducing a 3rd type of product and one superior to the 772 and to some the controversial 77W at the time. There was also the wrap around entitlements which people wanted and expected on the routes it was used in.

With regards to the 787, under Mr Luxon money always wins. Provided you can cover off the customer experience (CX) piece and demonstrate a higher return you'll always win. Contrary to popular belief the CX for the in-flight piece of the overall product rates highly. This takes nothing away from opinions here, as the old saying goes, you can't please everyone. NZ is also far from perfect.

I suspect this may change on the A321 and I wouldn't be surprised to see 1 or 2 rows removed at some point.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4315
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:51 pm

NZ6 wrote:
The more I think about the 78J and NZ the more I believe it's politics and big money talking.

I've heard from a number people around NZ Airbus is in the box seat. I assume Boeing know this given their 787 family don't have the legs of the similar sized Airbus option and their 77X family is arguably too big for many NZ routes.

A 77X order while providing the legs for new ventures comes with a massive aircraft, this is avoided under Airbus. I NZ won't get the A359 in addition to the 787 and 77X.

Is Boeing fearing an Airbus takeover of NZ by Airbus offering A359 'options' which will be set to replace the 789's within the next decade and are Boeing countering this with an amazing 78J deal keeping Boeing in the game so to speak?

I struggle to see the point of keeping the 789 and A359 long term if there was an alternative given they are both 280-320 frames depending on the LOPA and intended use. The key difference is the capable range with 3 class config is so much greater on one.

Once you have a widebody fleet of over 10x frames it doesn’t really matter if you diversify into another fleet generally. If NZ were to have 14x 787 and 14x A350 then that would not be an issue at all. In fact it does have advantages of right sizing routes as well as not having all eggs in one basket.
I’m actually thinking that NZ might go for A35J since it actually as more range than the A359 and should be fine for EWR without resorting to the A359ULR. This would be a competitive advantage over the likes of QF which is going to need heavier planes to serve NY.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:45 pm

My preference is also on the A350 but hey let's not count our chickens folks. Boeing will be driving a hard bargain here. They are desperate to win more 77x orders. Especially with what is up with the ME carriers. Let's hope we see NZ make a sensible choice and it is one consistent with a decent hard product for travellers on long routes. IMHO the 789 has fallen short here. Agree that we could see some A35K in future to replace 77W.
Plane mad!
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:53 pm

NZ321 wrote:
My preference is also on the A350 but hey let's not count our chickens folks. Boeing will be driving a hard bargain here. They are desperate to win more 77x orders. Especially with what is up with the ME carriers. Let's hope we see NZ make a sensible choice and it is one consistent with a decent hard product for travellers on long routes. IMHO the 789 has fallen short here. Agree that we could see some A35K in future to replace 77W.


Unless there's a complete philosophy change at the airline they will configure whatever aircraft they chose to the maximum density they perceive they can get away with. And as they've demonstrated with the 77W, 772, 789 and most recently the A321, that isn't a "decent hard product" place to be. But yes, it does seem that Boeing make it way easier than Airbus to cram in that extra Y seat widthwise.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:34 pm

Assuming any 78J order is it's own thing and focusing back on the 772 order.

I've said before NZ wants something about 300 seat market, well both the 789 and 772 fit into this, it's more about the cabin splits which make up that 300 seats.

My thoughts are that NZ wouldn't want to go any 'bigger' in aircraft size and focus instead on frequency and yield. Let assume NZ was to keep the 787 family for now and purely look to replace the 772's with something of similar size but also something to enable new ventures, lets now compare OZ's A359.

NZ 772: C:26 U:40 Y: 246
OZ 359 C: 28 U:36 Y: 247

The question is, what range can be obtained from such a configuration? We know OZ can do ICN-NYC which is a similar distance to AKL-YVR (excludes other variables) etc but how much further before you'd need to look at a second lighter LOPA? and NZ would need one to reach NYC.

I'm thinking NZ could look at something like...

NZ 359 C: 26 U: 34/38 Y: 245
NZ 359 C: 34 U: 48 Y: 210

This just raises the point the A359 is very similar to the 772 what we need to know is, what's the range like over different config options and how does this stack up against the proposed design for the 778.

The length of the 778 sits in between the A359 and A35K but has more range and a lot more than the 78J.

So I'll raise this question/options.

To get the range for the likes of NYC is NZ substituting too much payload on the A359, this bringing the larger 778 into play. NZ ordering 5-6 frames, 789's picking up ORD/IAH and the new 78J's picking up Asia. This keeping high premium numbers and still 230+ economy pax deep into the USA.

77W replacement may just be additional 778 with a different heavier LOPA designed for LAX/SFO/LHR etc.

So, NZ fleet at 2028
787x 21 (789 & 78J)
778x 10
 
Deepinsider
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:36 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:05 am

78J. Seems to be talked about lately. Is this one of
those things that gets planted here, and then somehow
becomes fact, or is something going on?
Could I suggest out of left field, that should this happen,
the GEnx is a viable option. Seems to be working well
for QF, and these days with heavy maintenance offshore,
commonality isn't really a biggy. Is loyalty to RR a factor?
Do they deserve it? Are we contracted?
Went on a 78J recently SIN-BKK when one replaced an
A330. Very nice regional business product installed by SQ,
not as good as their long haul version, but up with most
latest J seating that's about.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:48 am

PA515 wrote:
Steve Biddle of traveltalk.nz is suggesting Air NZ could order the 787-10 "before Christmas".

https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/are- ... ng-787-10/

Steve is usually well informed, but sometimes not fully informed. Three months ago Air NZ said the 77E replacement order would be announced about April 2019.

PA515


Came from this post. The 78J has been in the mix for some time. Weather this is true remains to be seen. Personally I didn’t think we would see both 78J and 359 in the fleet, and we might not yet.

Deepinsider wrote:
78J. Seems to be talked about lately. Is this one of
those things that gets planted here, and then somehow
becomes fact, or is something going on?
Could I suggest out of left field, that should this happen,
the GEnx is a viable option. Seems to be working well
for QF, and these days with heavy maintenance offshore,
commonality isn't really a biggy. Is loyalty to RR a factor?
Do they deserve it? Are we contracted?
Went on a 78J recently SIN-BKK when one replaced an
A330. Very nice regional business product installed by SQ,
not as good as their long haul version, but up with most
latest J seating that's about.



NZ6 wrote:
Assuming any 78J order is it's own thing and focusing back on the 772 order.

I've said before NZ wants something about 300 seat market, well both the 789 and 772 fit into this, it's more about the cabin splits which make up that 300 seats.

My thoughts are that NZ wouldn't want to go any 'bigger' in aircraft size and focus instead on frequency and yield. Let assume NZ was to keep the 787 family for now and purely look to replace the 772's with something of similar size but also something to enable new ventures, lets now compare OZ's A359.

NZ 772: C:26 U:40 Y: 246
OZ 359 C: 28 U:36 Y: 247

The question is, what range can be obtained from such a configuration? We know OZ can do ICN-NYC which is a similar distance to AKL-YVR (excludes other variables) etc but how much further before you'd need to look at a second lighter LOPA? and NZ would need one to reach NYC.

I'm thinking NZ could look at something like...

NZ 359 C: 26 U: 34/38 Y: 245
NZ 359 C: 34 U: 48 Y: 210

This just raises the point the A359 is very similar to the 772 what we need to know is, what's the range like over different config options and how does this stack up against the proposed design for the 778.

The length of the 778 sits in between the A359 and A35K but has more range and a lot more than the 78J.

So I'll raise this question/options.

To get the range for the likes of NYC is NZ substituting too much payload on the A359, this bringing the larger 778 into play. NZ ordering 5-6 frames, 789's picking up ORD/IAH and the new 78J's picking up Asia. This keeping high premium numbers and still 230+ economy pax deep into the USA.

77W replacement may just be additional 778 with a different heavier LOPA designed for LAX/SFO/LHR etc.

So, NZ fleet at 2028
787x 21 (789 & 78J)
778x 10


So OZ have 311 seats on the 359 in A very similar configuration to NZ’s 772, that’s a good comparison size wise.

Either way I would go with some slightly more premium 78J’s into Asia SIN/HKG/TYO say an initial 4-5 frames with some code 1 789’s becoming code 2 and used to IAH/YVR. Or A359’s when they could arrive doing IAH/YVR/ORD initially and 789 code 2 into Asia, smaller than 78J but allows more frequency increase slots depending.

Agree with your other post 772’s will likely stay till 2022 atleast given current 787 issues and their lift is required on the US routes.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:20 am

Deepinsider wrote:
78J. Seems to be talked about lately. Is this one of
those things that gets planted here, and then somehow
becomes fact, or is something going on?


Raised on the back of this article

https://traveltalk.nz/news-opinion/are- ... ng-787-10/

That's all, Everything is good fun speculation assuming there is truth to it.
 
PA515
Posts: 1541
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:47 pm

Air NZ A321-271NX ZK-NNB (msn 8542) has just about completed it's first flight as D-AVZU.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/D-AVZU

Also, Air NZ A320s ZK-OJN (msn 2594) and ZK-OJO (msn 2663) are still owned by AerCap and will be going to Canadian Jetlines about April 2019. I thought they had been purchased from AerCap by Air NZ, so must be another two.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... ement.html

PA515
 
NZ321
Posts: 1078
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:21 pm

Gasman wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
My preference is also on the A350 but hey let's not count our chickens folks. Boeing will be driving a hard bargain here. They are desperate to win more 77x orders. Especially with what is up with the ME carriers. Let's hope we see NZ make a sensible choice and it is one consistent with a decent hard product for travellers on long routes. IMHO the 789 has fallen short here. Agree that we could see some A35K in future to replace 77W.


Unless there's a complete philosophy change at the airline they will configure whatever aircraft they chose to the maximum density they perceive they can get away with. And as they've demonstrated with the 77W, 772, 789 and most recently the A321, that isn't a "decent hard product" place to be. But yes, it does seem that Boeing make it way easier than Airbus to cram in that extra Y seat widthwise.


Yes evidence does suggest this unfortunately, but then they stand to lose more premium travellers to other carriers. I assume those of us who have left have not been sufficient to have made any dent on yields whatsoever because of growth from the bottom - emerging fliers. However, an A350 choice does bode better for the customer in terms of flying comfort by quite a margin over the current 787 and I believe a 777x choice which increasingly to me seems to be too much plane for NZ. So there could be hope.
Plane mad!
 
NZ321
Posts: 1078
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:23 pm

I also think it's kind of weird that as a Star gold elite flier for years I only once remember filling in any kind of NZ survey form emailed to me. This is in stark contrast to other carriers that I fly that survey your customer experience far more proactively. Interesting point of difference to me.
Plane mad!
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:29 pm

NZ321 wrote:
I also think it's kind of weird that as a Star gold elite flier for years I only once remember filling in any kind of NZ survey form emailed to me. This is in stark contrast to other carriers that I fly that survey your customer experience far more proactively. Interesting point of difference to me.


NZ tried this a while back, I can't recall if they still use it. It was found to largely entice complaints vs reflecting overall customer feedback.

By memory, there was a website on the back of your boarding pass along a PA announcement to go online and provide feedback post-flight. External consultants highlighted this approach unevenly attracts in those with issues/complaints vs those happy customers which is normal human behaviour.

When I think about it, I'm really lazy and I don't take time to provide feedback on good experiences... I just happily move on meanwhile, if I'm given the avenue to vent on an issue, I'll jump all over it.

So while this feedback is valuable, it doesn't reflect the overall customer 'feeling' and NZ now uses several other methods. I know of times where they've 'tested' products and services out on selected Gold and Elite members for example.

Another way to look at this is, NZ will know what their most common issues/complaints are, the real hard data to get is how many feel this way for each of these issues.
 
ZKOAB
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:59 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:33 pm

NZ6 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
I also think it's kind of weird that as a Star gold elite flier for years I only once remember filling in any kind of NZ survey form emailed to me. This is in stark contrast to other carriers that I fly that survey your customer experience far more proactively. Interesting point of difference to me.


NZ tried this a while back, I can't recall if they still use it. It was found to largely entice complaints vs reflecting overall customer feedback.

By memory, there was a website on the back of your boarding pass along a PA announcement to go online and provide feedback post-flight. External consultants highlighted this approach unevenly attracts in those with issues/complaints vs those happy customers which is normal human behaviour.

When I think about it, I'm really lazy and I don't take time to provide feedback on good experiences... I just happily move on meanwhile, if I'm given the avenue to vent on an issue, I'll jump all over it.

So while this feedback is valuable, it doesn't reflect the overall customer 'feeling' and NZ now uses several other methods. I know of times where they've 'tested' products and services out on selected Gold and Elite members for example.

Another way to look at this is, NZ will know what their most common issues/complaints are, the real hard data to get is how many feel this way for each of these issues.


I recall getting emailed My Voice survey invitations after every flight which got annoying when I traveled a lot.
They magically dialed that back without asking and you're right, I was more inclined to vent at the bad things.

My role revolves around customer experience and being at the receiving end of both good and bad gives me perspective, so when I have a great customer experience with ANZ (or any company for that matter), I am motivated to provide feedback. Why? Great customer experiences don't happen often and they're good to point out IMHO.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:51 pm

ZKOAB wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
I also think it's kind of weird that as a Star gold elite flier for years I only once remember filling in any kind of NZ survey form emailed to me. This is in stark contrast to other carriers that I fly that survey your customer experience far more proactively. Interesting point of difference to me.


NZ tried this a while back, I can't recall if they still use it. It was found to largely entice complaints vs reflecting overall customer feedback.

By memory, there was a website on the back of your boarding pass along a PA announcement to go online and provide feedback post-flight. External consultants highlighted this approach unevenly attracts in those with issues/complaints vs those happy customers which is normal human behaviour.

When I think about it, I'm really lazy and I don't take time to provide feedback on good experiences... I just happily move on meanwhile, if I'm given the avenue to vent on an issue, I'll jump all over it.

So while this feedback is valuable, it doesn't reflect the overall customer 'feeling' and NZ now uses several other methods. I know of times where they've 'tested' products and services out on selected Gold and Elite members for example.

Another way to look at this is, NZ will know what their most common issues/complaints are, the real hard data to get is how many feel this way for each of these issues.


I recall getting emailed My Voice survey invitations after every flight which got annoying when I traveled a lot.
They magically dialed that back without asking and you're right, I was more inclined to vent at the bad things.

My role revolves around customer experience and being at the receiving end of both good and bad gives me perspective, so when I have a great customer experience with ANZ (or any company for that matter), I am motivated to provide feedback. Why? Great customer experiences don't happen often and they're good to point out IMHO.


My Voice, that's what it's called and the website is still active. I don't recall hearing or seeing anything last time I flew so not sure if it's still promoted or if I just completely zoned it out however TPE is on the destination list so that's a strong sign it's used.

https://www.airnzmyvoice.co.nz/myvoice/
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3881
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:29 am

Gasman wrote:
smartplane wrote:
EK store new 777 and A380 parts for Boeing and Airbus respectively, on a sale or return basis. Free storage, but the quid pro quo, EK only pay when they use or sell parts, and share the margin when sold to third parties.

Yet another reason why the reported price of a new aircraft is for the most purposes, irrelevant.


Sounds like there might be a good buck in this racket. I'm going to store a couple of Trent 1000s in my garage and sit back & wait.


Just spat out a lot of coffee when reading that comment! :rotfl:

NZ6 wrote:
I'm wondering if he's hearing of a potential -10 order and somehow this has become the 772 replacement order where in fact it's, it's own order. Or someone who shared this info has. I've heard a few mutters over the last 12 months around an increase in frames for the 787 fleet at some point. A lot like the A320 family it could see two types, in this case, that being the -9 and -10.

NZ's been clear the A350 and 77X are the two on the table and both offer a greater range which enables routes NZ's had their eyes on for a while without compromising capacity or weight. I can't see NZ giving this up for a -10 order.

That would make much more sense the 787-10s replacing 77Es.

NZ6 wrote:
That said, this is marginally feasible, say they order 8-10 frames, deploy them all into Asia and release that the -9's which are used on PVG, SIN, NRT, TPE, DPS, KIX etc for North America flying.

I think this would have to happen. They will need to reconfigure all the Config 1 787-9s to Config 2 and have the 787-10s take up the 787-9 Config 1 flying. It would make no sense for the airline to have potentially three different aircraft types in a similar capacity range. 787-9 Config 1, 787-9 Config 2, 787-10 and A350-900/777-8 would all be too close to each other in terms of capacity.

Gasman wrote:
......... and I feel fairly confident that this order wouldn't be too far different from most people's (at least amongst the few that care about such things). NZ lost a lot when they retired the 744 and 763 without replacing that pax experience.


I strongly agree with this, though since it is hard to quantify, most of the accountants will assume it to be non-existent.

planemanofnz wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
I just flew into Bali this afternoon on MH from KUL A333. And friends arrived on EK this week direct from AKL. Said it was very light in economy - they had a whole row in the middle to sleep. Wonder really how EK can sustain this given aforementioned info re loads.

Have a similar story - from the past week too - extremely light loadings. Will be very interesting to see whether the DPS - AKL tag lasts.

I wonder if they could do 3x weekly via DPS, and 4x weekly via somewhere else, like BKK, given neither could likely support 7x weekly?.

Some competition through Singapore would be good.

NZ6 wrote:
I have no idea why an airline needs a 'flagship' aircraft whatever that actually is.... the airline needs the best equipment for their business model and their routes. Interestingly, numbers 1 and 3 on your list don't feature in QF's long-term plans while number 2 does but for how long I wonder....

Qantas wouldn't be undertaking expensive A380 refits next year if the aircraft didn't feature in their long term plans...

NZ6 wrote:
Lastly, you're talking about interior product whereas this is talking about aircraft performance and capability. The A350 if ordered may still see 10 abreast along with a similar seat pitch.

That would be such an Air New Zealand like thing to do. :lol: Guaranteed that Grant Bradley would forget to mention this in the NZHerald puff piece when the airline takes delivery of the first one.

NZ6 wrote:
I'd also disagree with your thoughts on all decisions since the Electra being bad, I believe the 777 family was the best choice at the time. It's the 787 which has perhaps been the wrong move.


Read what he said again: ;)
I've said previously that NZ haven't made a bad purchasing decision since the Electra, but I agree what you've proposed above might have turned out better for the present moment.


Gasman wrote:
I'm simply pointing out that all of QF's long haul fleet are objectively better, and I doubt it's all by fluke.

Qantas has competition on nearly all their long haul routes. Qantas hence needs to compete in terms of product, to get bums on seats. Nearly all of Air New Zealand's long haul routes are monopolies or JV monopolies, so they don't need to compete in terms of product at all.

NZ321 wrote:
My preference is also on the A350 but hey let's not count our chickens folks. Boeing will be driving a hard bargain here. They are desperate to win more 77x orders. Especially with what is up with the ME carriers. Let's hope we see NZ make a sensible choice and it is one consistent with a decent hard product for travellers on long routes. IMHO the 789 has fallen short here. Agree that we could see some A35K in future to replace 77W.

:checkmark: That's my main concern here. I'm sure Boeing know that if they can't sell the 777X to Air New Zealand and Qantas, the program is in serious trouble and the 777-8X is probably dead on arrival. NZ & QF should be in theory the perfect 777X customers due to their very long average sector lengths.


PA515 wrote:
Air NZ A321-271NX ZK-NNB (msn 8542) has just about completed it's first flight as D-AVZU.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/D-AVZU

Also, Air NZ A320s ZK-OJN (msn 2594) and ZK-OJO (msn 2663) are still owned by AerCap and will be going to Canadian Jetlines about April 2019. I thought they had been purchased from AerCap by Air NZ, so must be another two.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... ement.html

PA515

Thanks for your updates on these things. Do you know which A320Internationals are going to be switched to the domestic fleet now that the 321neos have started to arrive? Or are they all just rotated through as needed?


NZ6 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
I also think it's kind of weird that as a Star gold elite flier for years I only once remember filling in any kind of NZ survey form emailed to me. This is in stark contrast to other carriers that I fly that survey your customer experience far more proactively. Interesting point of difference to me.


NZ tried this a while back, I can't recall if they still use it. It was found to largely entice complaints vs reflecting overall customer feedback.


But other airlines don't experience this phenomenon? Weirdly the only time I've noticed Air New Zealand being proactive with seeking feedback was when flying on other Star Alliance carriers (not that I don't think that they should do this). I try to be proactive with MyVoice. :)
First to fly the 787-9
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:32 am

zkojq wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
....

That would make much more sense the 787-10s replacing 77Es.

NZ6 wrote:
...

I think this would have to happen. They will need to reconfigure all the Config 1 787-9s to Config 2 and have the 787-10s take up the 787-9 Config 1 flying. It would make no sense for the airline to have potentially three different aircraft types in a similar capacity range. 787-9 Config 1, 787-9 Config 2, 787-10 and A350-900/777-8 would all be too close to each other in terms of capacity.


What's proposed here, correct me I'm wrong. NZ orders the 78J to replace the 772, the 78J goes into Asia ports freeing up 789's to pick up longer services which are/have been/could be 772 operated IAH/YVR/ORD/EZE for example. So it's a big game of shuffling the deck chairs around.

That isn't such an issue unless you're worried about giving up the 31Y seats and 7Y+ seats? which is what happens when you replace the 722 with the 789 V2, or worse, if you keep V1 give up 8C seats, 19Y+ seats but gain 17Y seats.

zkojq wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
I have no idea why an airline needs a 'flagship' aircraft whatever that actually is.... the airline needs the best equipment for their business model and their routes. Interestingly, numbers 1 and 3 on your list don't feature in QF's long-term plans while number 2 does but for how long I wonder....

Qantas wouldn't be undertaking expensive A380 refits next year if the aircraft didn't feature in their long term plans...


I can't find any public reference to it other than forum posts, 'Project sunrise' primary focus is connection SYD/MEL with LON/PAR and NYC but is also about their next generation aircraft for their fleet, when I've spoken with industry associates they're expecting QF to have options which will likely be taken towards the second half of 2020 and will replace the A380. The refurb starting next year will see another 10 years use. Remember, NZ recently refurbed the 77W and they're going 2025 ish.

I personally suspect QF will go 77X and also get more 787 phasing out the A330 aircraft.

zkojq wrote:

Gasman wrote:
I'm simply pointing out that all of QF's long haul fleet are objectively better, and I doubt it's all by fluke.

Qantas has competition on nearly all their long haul routes. Qantas hence needs to compete in terms of product, to get bums on seats. Nearly all of Air New Zealand's long haul routes are monopolies or JV monopolies, so they don't need to compete in terms of product at all.

QF has the A380, it's hard to get wrong. Similarly, the 747 is always a customer delight but airline nightmare due to its cost. First class is amazing but sadly not something little old NZ can afford to have and I'll agree the NZ C cabin is showing its design age. It's still a really nice cabin and very competitive Business Cabin globally.

zkojq wrote:

NZ6 wrote:
...


But other airlines don't experience this phenomenon? Weirdly the only time I've noticed Air New Zealand being proactive with seeking feedback was when flying on other Star Alliance carriers (not that I don't think that they should do this). I try to be proactive with MyVoice. :)


Every industry and trade experiences this phenomenon. The whole measuring customer experience topic is a science in its own right, google it and it'll keep you busy for a long time. It all depends if you see this as a problem or what your intentions / use is for your data.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:05 am

NZ6 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
I also think it's kind of weird that as a Star gold elite flier for years I only once remember filling in any kind of NZ survey form emailed to me. This is in stark contrast to other carriers that I fly that survey your customer experience far more proactively. Interesting point of difference to me.


NZ tried this a while back, I can't recall if they still use it. It was found to largely entice complaints vs reflecting overall customer feedback.

So while this feedback is valuable, it doesn't reflect the overall customer 'feeling' and NZ now uses several other methods. I know of times where they've 'tested' products and services out on selected Gold and Elite members for example.

Another way to look at this is, NZ will know what their most common issues/complaints are, the real hard data to get is how many feel this way for each of these issues.

Seems a very simplistic response, which suggests NZ didn't receive good advice on targets customers, target data, result mining, and analysis.

Feedback definitely does reflect overall customer 'feeling'.

For example, NZ could compare the ratio of negative responses, by class, to the number of passengers flown in a finite period. Or negative responses per passenger hour flown. Apart from measuring NZ trends, comparable information can be acquired from other airlines (airlines not identified).

Then you analyse the actual complaints, and classify them from serious to trivial, apply weightings, and compare based on routes, flight duration, aircraft type, etc. Again, it's trends you are looking for, as well as the specifics.

For example, if the only complaints are of a very trivial nature, it indicates a high service standard, because human nature is generally it's the worst experiences and memories that are recall worthy.
 
Deepinsider
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:36 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:07 am

78J. A US blog which is extremely pro Boeing, (so much so
that it's server is probably in Chicago or Seattle) said this
today;

" Air New Zealand is weighing an order for its fleet renewal and for fleet expansion. The 787-10 is on the watch list for a decision by the end of this year. If it goes with Airbus A-350 it will be a complete fleet renewal with Airbus. If it goes with Boeing it will expand its Boeing types into different models down the road such as 787-10's or 777X's."

Backs up local news that a 78J order may be soon.
What happens after that of course, may not be as
that writer hopes.
 
PA515
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:58 am

zkojq wrote:
PA515 wrote:
Air NZ A321-271NX ZK-NNB (msn 8542) has just about completed it's first flight as D-AVZU.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/D-AVZU

Also, Air NZ A320s ZK-OJN (msn 2594) and ZK-OJO (msn 2663) are still owned by AerCap and will be going to Canadian Jetlines about April 2019. I thought they had been purchased from AerCap by Air NZ, so must be another two.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... ement.html

PA515

Thanks for your updates on these things. Do you know which A320Internationals are going to be switched to the domestic fleet now that the 321neos have started to arrive? Or are they all just rotated through as needed?


Don't know what's happening with the other International A320s. Only found out about ZK-OJN and ZK-OJO while trying to find out which leasing outfit the next 789 is coming from.

Correction to my original post. ZK-OJN and ZK-OJO are going to Canada Jetlines (not Canadian).

PA515
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:25 pm

Deepinsider wrote:
78J. A US blog which is extremely pro Boeing, (so much so
that it's server is probably in Chicago or Seattle) said this
today;

" Air New Zealand is weighing an order for its fleet renewal and for fleet expansion. The 787-10 is on the watch list for a decision by the end of this year. If it goes with Airbus A-350 it will be a complete fleet renewal with Airbus. If it goes with Boeing it will expand its Boeing types into different models down the road such as 787-10's or 777X's."

Backs up local news that a 78J order may be soon.
What happens after that of course, may not be as
that writer hopes.


I don't buy a complete fleet renewal that means 789 are out; how can NZ afford this? I think this statement is pertaining more to renewal of 777s. BTW if suggested above NZ is considering 10 abreast on the 350 then I'd sooner go with Boeing, but I somehow doubt this is the case. By the end of the year? Sounds like we may have a decision by Christmas.
Plane mad!
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:11 pm

smartplane wrote:
Seems a very simplistic response, which suggests NZ didn't receive good advice on targets customers, target data, result mining, and analysis.

Feedback definitely does reflect overall customer 'feeling'.

For example, NZ could compare the ratio of negative responses, by class, to the number of passengers flown in a finite period. Or negative responses per passenger hour flown. Apart from measuring NZ trends, comparable information can be acquired from other airlines (airlines not identified).

Then you analyse the actual complaints, and classify them from serious to trivial, apply weightings, and compare based on routes, flight duration, aircraft type, etc. Again, it's trends you are looking for, as well as the specifics.

For example, if the only complaints are of a very trivial nature, it indicates a high service standard, because human nature is generally it's the worst experiences and memories that are recall worthy.


So understanding that seeking post service feedback attracts an unbalanced view of overall customer satisfaction is simplistic? I would have thought, understanding this and then trying to calculate overall customer satisfaction by offsetting negative feedback against passengers numbers was simplistic.

While the airline does report or at least review the number of complaints per passenger flow - this isn't used to measure overall customer satisfaction. These are two very different things.

Let's make up some numbers here and say for any given period 100,000 passengers have flown. You receive 10,000 complaints / negative survey results whichever method you use.

Where do the other 90,000 sit? they haven't complained or given feedback, so are they happy? Never flying again. Over the moon?

Do we say 10% of customers are unhappy with NZ

Are mentioned yesterday, knowing you top issues or most common issues shouldn't be anything new or difficult to work out, however measuring overall customer feedback is a lot more tricky and not a simple task.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:16 pm

Deepinsider wrote:
78J. A US blog which is extremely pro Boeing, (so much so
that it's server is probably in Chicago or Seattle) said this
today;

" Air New Zealand is weighing an order for its fleet renewal and for fleet expansion. The 787-10 is on the watch list for a decision by the end of this year. If it goes with Airbus A-350 it will be a complete fleet renewal with Airbus. If it goes with Boeing it will expand its Boeing types into different models down the road such as 787-10's or 777X's."

Backs up local news that a 78J order may be soon.
What happens after that of course, may not be as
that writer hopes.


Any chance you can post the link?

Semi supports my thoughts earlier this week of an increase in the 787 fleet size, 78J into Asia / new some routes freeing up 789's for the USA and seeing the 77X replace both the 772 and 77W.

If it goes this way, I don't think we'll see 13x 77X.

Interestingly, I've been repeatedly told Airbus was the preferred option. I wonder if this is Boeing coming in very late with something very attractive.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:17 am

NZ321 wrote:
Deepinsider wrote:
78J. A US blog which is extremely pro Boeing, (so much so
that it's server is probably in Chicago or Seattle) said this
today;

" Air New Zealand is weighing an order for its fleet renewal and for fleet expansion. The 787-10 is on the watch list for a decision by the end of this year. If it goes with Airbus A-350 it will be a complete fleet renewal with Airbus. If it goes with Boeing it will expand its Boeing types into different models down the road such as 787-10's or 777X's."

Backs up local news that a 78J order may be soon.
What happens after that of course, may not be as
that writer hopes.


I don't buy a complete fleet renewal that means 789 are out; how can NZ afford this? I think this statement is pertaining more to renewal of 777s. BTW if suggested above NZ is considering 10 abreast on the 350 then I'd sooner go with Boeing, but I somehow doubt this is the case. By the end of the year? Sounds like we may have a decision by Christmas.


Yes I would say they mean it would be likely all 777’s would be replaced by A350’s over the next decade or so.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:43 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Megatop747-412 wrote:
nz2 wrote:
Hi all, does anyone know what version of the A380 SQ flies to AKL? I am off the Singapore this Sunday and NZ is sold out in PE so I am trying SQ on SQ 286 at 3.15pm. Hopefully it is version 3 with PE in the nose, just curious thats all

Thanks


Unfortunately SQ286 is not likely to get the Version 3 A380, the newest config A380s, of which SQ has only 5 at the moment (9V-SKU to SKZ with the exception of SKX). SQ285/286 is likely to get version 1, which has economy on the rear end of the upper deck.



Version 1 is all AKL has ever got bar 1-2 subs 1 year. There are 6 9V-SKF-SKK with version 1 which have done all AKL services so far this season. SQ don’t sub to often.

They will refit all of them to version 3 in 2019/20.


There have been 3 subs to version 2 A380’s this week, these are the All J upper deck, registrations SKL-SKT, looks like V1 SKK hasn’t flown for a few days.

The 6 V1 frames don’t do a lot of long haul looking at where they go they seem to do AKL/SYD/MEL/DEL/BOM/KIX/PEK, plenty of medium haul with AKL easily the longest regular flight of late.
 
nz2
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:38 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:35 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Megatop747-412 wrote:

Unfortunately SQ286 is not likely to get the Version 3 A380, the newest config A380s, of which SQ has only 5 at the moment (9V-SKU to SKZ with the exception of SKX). SQ285/286 is likely to get version 1, which has economy on the rear end of the upper deck.



Version 1 is all AKL has ever got bar 1-2 subs 1 year. There are 6 9V-SKF-SKK with version 1 which have done all AKL services so far this season. SQ don’t sub to often.

They will refit all of them to version 3 in 2019/20.


There have been 3 subs to version 2 A380’s this week, these are the All J upper deck, registrations SKL-SKT, looks like V1 SKK hasn’t flown for a few days.

The 6 V1 frames don’t do a lot of long haul looking at where they go they seem to do AKL/SYD/MEL/DEL/BOM/KIX/PEK, plenty of medium haul with AKL easily the longest regular flight of late.


I was surprised with the SQ premium eco, seat pitch did not seem as good as NZ and some garish colours, the large IFE screen was pretty good though. The food wasn't bad but came on plastic plates so again the quality of the experience did not stack up to NZ. The small drinks ledge was annoying by not being a flat table surface but rather round receptacles, while a glass could fit in, a beer can could not meaning you had to have your tray table deployed. Still its better than Y especially when work is paying for it....
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:32 am

NZ6 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Seems a very simplistic response, which suggests NZ didn't receive good advice on targets customers, target data, result mining, and analysis.

Feedback definitely does reflect overall customer 'feeling'.

For example, NZ could compare the ratio of negative responses, by class, to the number of passengers flown in a finite period. Or negative responses per passenger hour flown. Apart from measuring NZ trends, comparable information can be acquired from other airlines (airlines not identified).

Then you analyse the actual complaints, and classify them from serious to trivial, apply weightings, and compare based on routes, flight duration, aircraft type, etc. Again, it's trends you are looking for, as well as the specifics.

For example, if the only complaints are of a very trivial nature, it indicates a high service standard, because human nature is generally it's the worst experiences and memories that are recall worthy.


So understanding that seeking post service feedback attracts an unbalanced view of overall customer satisfaction is simplistic? I would have thought, understanding this and then trying to calculate overall customer satisfaction by offsetting negative feedback against passengers numbers was simplistic.

While the airline does report or at least review the number of complaints per passenger flow - this isn't used to measure overall customer satisfaction. These are two very different things.

Let's make up some numbers here and say for any given period 100,000 passengers have flown. You receive 10,000 complaints / negative survey results whichever method you use.

Where do the other 90,000 sit? they haven't complained or given feedback, so are they happy? Never flying again. Over the moon?

Do we say 10% of customers are unhappy with NZ

Are mentioned yesterday, knowing you top issues or most common issues shouldn't be anything new or difficult to work out, however measuring overall customer feedback is a lot more tricky and not a simple task.

Gasman and others. I'm beginning to understand.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3260
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:16 am

nz2 wrote:
I was surprised with the SQ premium eco, seat pitch did not seem as good as NZ and some garish colours, the large IFE screen was pretty good though. The food wasn't bad but came on plastic plates so again the quality of the experience did not stack up to NZ. The small drinks ledge was annoying by not being a flat table surface but rather round receptacles, while a glass could fit in, a beer can could not meaning you had to have your tray table deployed. Still its better than Y especially when work is paying for it....


NZ defiantly sets the Food/Bereave service pretty high for PE, when most airlines its basically the same as Y and shares crew with Y. When NZ PE shares crew and catering with J.
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 945
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:37 am

Having worked a fair bit with customer service and its handling, I am a bit surprised to hear the view taken by NZ. Its a very different view to most other organisations who believe that communication with customers are good. Not to mention research which clearly shows that providing a customer the oppurtunity to went any frustrations reduces the risk of reduced loyalty. Most hotelchains for example use this first to build loyalty by acknowledging each client but then they use the information for data-mining.
Whine a bit on a Accor survey following a stay and 3 days later you get a reply from someone saying thank you for your points etc, we will look into them...

I hope NZ, whom I think is a professional organisation despite what NZ6 is alluding to, have a more enlightened view of what customer data and customer communication means in the 21st century. I dont know I stopped flying them a decade ago but I dont have anything against the company, just found the competitors were better and offered things and service that better aligned with me and my expectations.
Hmm and customer data tend to be quite a bit more than thematic analysis. The data mining softwares of today are damn excellent tools to pinpoint even the smallest issue.
In regards to receiving mainly complaints, most professionals would argue that its how you ask questions that determines the quality of your feedback. Worth keeping in mind.
With that said, NZ has its captive market of loyal kiwis who fly the flag. Maybe they know that most of them will continue to fly NZ is large enough numbers to make feedback unnecessary. After all there isn't much local competition and when we see the seeds of such, theministry of transport quickly jumps in and ensures that they can have a partnership benefitting absolutely no one but the airlines. Hence, instead of having it like in Australia where SQ and CX offer frequent one-stops to the world, have their own co-branded bank cards and chase market share we are stuck with a cozy monopoly/oligopoly which really helps the local incumbent.
Those cooperation between specific companies and the ministry is one reason why we are slipping on the international institutionalised corruption rankings.

However its not all bad, sometimes its better not to do customer surveys.
Earlier this year I flew Philippine airlines between SIN and MNL. About one month after I had completed my flight, I received an email from PAL asking for my thoughts about the service. Since I fly a fair bit it seemed a bit late, but well, I thought Id fill it in.
Their survey was made with google docs. I am not kidding. They sent a google doc survey to a paying client (and I assume they send them to all customers but that's just my assumption).
The questions asked were all quantitative and mainly in likhert-scale format. But, what made it laughable was that the questions weren't objective like you'd expect but by default subjective. I have never seen such utterly unprofessional corporate communication from a company of decent size (and google forms its just mind boggling when you consider privacy, anonymity etc).
There used questions such as:
How good was the crew on your flight?
Pls rate the food with the choices of: ok, good, very good , excellent !!!
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
GW54
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:05 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:00 pm

I see Air NZ Airbus A320 ZK-OJG has been withdrawn from service following the introduction of A321 ZK-NNA. Clearly not destined for service in the Domestic fleet. Looks like additional aircraft for domestic will be rotated through from the regional fleet on a ad-hoc basis? Anyone know where OJG maybe heading?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:36 pm

GW54 wrote:
I see Air NZ Airbus A320 ZK-OJG has been withdrawn from service following the introduction of A321 ZK-NNA. Clearly not destined for service in the Domestic fleet. Looks like additional aircraft for domestic will be rotated through from the regional fleet on a ad-hoc basis? Anyone know where OJG maybe heading?


I’m pretty sure it will be 3 specific frames that stay till 2020 and move to domestic, not to say they might not cover international if required? Not sure which 3 though.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
Having worked a fair bit with customer service and its handling, I am a bit surprised to hear the view taken by NZ. Its a very different view to most other organisations who believe that communication with customers are good. Not to mention research which clearly shows that providing a customer the oppurtunity to went any frustrations reduces the risk of reduced loyalty. Most hotelchains for example use this first to build loyalty by acknowledging each client but then they use the information for data-mining.
Whine a bit on a Accor survey following a stay and 3 days later you get a reply from someone saying thank you for your points etc, we will look into them...

I hope NZ, whom I think is a professional organisation despite what NZ6 is alluding to, have a more enlightened view of what customer data and customer communication means in the 21st century.


To put my comments back in perspective.

1. NZ321 raised the comment he had only filled out one post fly survey where other carriers appear to proactively survey their customer experience.
2. I then raised the point that NZ has done this in the past and was unsure if they still promoted it.
3. I added to this that research done by specialists on this methodology demonstrates results from this approach do not accurately reflect your overall customer feeling as human behaviour is to complain more than they compliment.
4. I also stated NZ uses a number of approaches to measure customer experience which may still include using this survey.
5. I've raised that knowing the number of complaints, knowing the most common complaints and knowing your overall customer satisfaction/feeling are two different numbers.

So I'm not sure what "view" NZ has taken? other than to pursue more relevant accurate data via multiple means.

A real quick example is using modern social media tools which predict the user's mood based on the selection of words used and then ranks their positive/negative demeanour on this.

The good old-fashioned complaints department also reflect the number of complaints received in proportion to the customer flown. But, as I've said before, this is an easy stat to capture and while you may have a complaint to passenger flown ratio of say 1/1000, this says nothing for the other 999. Based on my original point, getting the 999 to complete the survey is difficult so the challenge is getting insight into how the value, rate their Air NZ experience.

We can use all the big buzzwords and can all proclaim to be experts in this field, however, this topic is a minefield of complexities and there are organisations out there who specialize in this topic and are continually pursuing the most accurate data for their clients so they can remain competitive in their industry and as we live in such a time poor society today creating new ways to capture this do need to be explored.
 
NYKiwi
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:08 am

I can't see the 78J as replacement for the 772. It may match seat count but doesn't have the range and I know many have said the 789 will pick up the slack there but these are smaller planes so would they do daily into IAH year round or double daily as example....I think it makes more sense to replace the 772 with an aircraft that will also replace the 77W...ie 350.

Issue I see with 78J also is what happens if Asia goes into recession these birds are limited and can't do other flying except HNL and OZ
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:43 am

NYKiwi wrote:
I can't see the 78J as replacement for the 772. It may match seat count but doesn't have the range and I know many have said the 789 will pick up the slack there but these are smaller planes so would they do daily into IAH year round or double daily as example....I think it makes more sense to replace the 772 with an aircraft that will also replace the 77W...ie 350.

Issue I see with 78J also is what happens if Asia goes into recession these birds are limited and can't do other flying except HNL and OZ


I agree with you re the 78J not being flexible should Asia go into recession, I’d say we might be looking at 4-6 frames to cover SIN/HKG/TYO mainly with a similar premium count to the code 2 789’s with an extra 5-6 rows of Y so 260-269Y giving a 320-330 seater. HNL and PER can be done with 78J while the plan would be to increase SIN/HKG/TYO also PVG frequency to double daily, some of these ie SIN/HKG would be in connection with SQ/CX so double daily NS for NZ while CX/SQ operate 2 flights in NW, I’d probably see NZ have 1 78J and a 789 on the second flight.

They would certainly do IAH daily year round with a 789 while probably boosting ORD frequency rather than more than 1 IAH service.

They may replace 77W with 77X, I’d find it interesting with both the 78J and A359 in the fleet however, the 359 could be used to Asia, though I believe the 78J will be more efficient on those legs.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:50 am

So we've ascertained the new aircraft will definitely be the 78J. Or the 778 or A350-1000. Or a targeted mixture of all three.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6970
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:59 am

Gasman wrote:
So we've ascertained the new aircraft will definitely be the 78J. Or the 778 or A350-1000. Or a targeted mixture of all three.


I’d say so, the 359 will definitely be in the mix aswell, the 78J here seems to be getting talked about as an expansion aircraft and seperate order however. Who actually knows, pure speculation really.

I guess the 78J would form part of a larger 787 fleet which will be atleast 14 789’s unless any are replaced early which I can’t see personally. As I say I’d have thought the 359 would be good for Asia hence I’d personally find it odd if they got both the 78J and 359.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:23 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Gasman wrote:
So we've ascertained the new aircraft will definitely be the 78J. Or the 778 or A350-1000. Or a targeted mixture of all three.


I’d say so, the 359 will definitely be in the mix aswell, the 78J here seems to be getting talked about as an expansion aircraft and seperate order however. Who actually knows, pure speculation really.

I guess the 78J would form part of a larger 787 fleet which will be atleast 14 789’s unless any are replaced early which I can’t see personally. As I say I’d have thought the 359 would be good for Asia hence I’d personally find it odd if they got both the 78J and 359.


One definitely gets the impression they're in no rush. And why would they be - the airline is printing money as it is, and a bad decision now could upset the applecart somewhat.

If it ain't broke.....
 
NZ6
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:29 am

Gasman wrote:
So we've ascertained the new aircraft will definitely be the 78J. Or the 778 or A350-1000. Or a targeted mixture of all three.


Well, we've always known it would be the A350 or 77X (77W replacement options will be considered as part of any purchase so forget varients for now). It's the 78J article which has just put the cat amongst the pigeons.

If true.... Is this additional frames for growth or to free up 789's which will then, in turn, pick up some existing 772 operations meaning any new types would see reduced numbers or be used for new ventures.

I don't for a second expect to see the 78J order in lieu of a 772 replacement order.

So, we'll see one new type, ordered next year and maybe a new variant.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - November 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:53 pm

When you wind it back, there's very little we actually know.

1. We know that NZ have voiced plans to expand further into North & South America. But we haven't been given a timeline, and it actually happening is far from a certainty even if the intent is genuine.

2. NZ would require additional aircraft from what they currently have to execute these plans.

3. There are several contenders from both Boeing and Airbus but they all would come with compromises.

4. We have no idea what (if any) discussions are taking place with the manufacturers, how far along they are, or when to expect an announcement. An announcement tomorrow, next year or in three years would all be consistent with how NZ have played it.

5. Purchase price will have a major impact on the decision made and that's something we won't have a clue on. No one is suggesting the A380 as a contender. But if Airbus suddenly donated six A380s to NZ for free; that would pretty quickly become the perfect aircraft for the network.
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