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Bricktop
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:02 pm

PW100 wrote:
SC430 wrote:
Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal


As I read the Flight Global article, I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and put a negative headline spin to that. I just knew if would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom . . .

:rotfl:

I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and say "nothing to see here". I just knew I would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom. My money was on someone on a certain island around the 64th parallel north with a username evoking Norse mythology, and who is apparently an expert in aviation accounting. He surely would have risen to the defense of, and snuffed out this unseemly mockery of his beloved OEM. :wink2:
 
2175301
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:08 pm

The main split in opinion on this "issue" is that some people by their nature are "fudgers" and minor distortions do not bother them. Some people like this run very successful companies and other organizations (they just have accountants and other people doing formal reports who don't fudge).

Other people are detailed on you measure against the standard and you don't change or fudge. For them I believe that this change indicates a dishonest management team

In this case Airbus has clearly fudged/changed the standard by which they said they should be judged (800 deliveries of A319-A380).

Now they have changed that to 782 deliveries of A319-A380 and 18 A220 (a new aircraft design they purchased) for a total of 800.

It is in my opinion deceptive for anyone who does not study the details statement; and it is factually changing the standard by which they said they would measure their performance by.

I agree that this change and how it was done will not help Airbus with the investors... and raised doubts about their future statements on their intents.

Have a great day,

Edited to change a mistyped number
Last edited by 2175301 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:15 pm

2175301 wrote:
Now they have changed that to 682 deliveries of A319-A380 and 18 A220 (a new aircraft design they purchased) for a total of 800.

I suspect a typo in your quote, because if that's verbatim, pants are on fire at Airbus. :wink2:
 
smartplane
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:17 pm

Slug71 wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
How dare they include Airbus A220 in their production list! Blasphemy I tell you!


They are including C Series jets BBD produced and sold. That is not the point of the delivery number which is used to give investors guidance on expected revenue.

Including aircraft they have no right to list is borderline market manipulation. The A220 was not part of the 800 delivery forecast. If they want to include the A220 numbers they should revise the forecast up.

The OP is right about something that a lot of folks will miss: smart investors will see that and it will cost Airbus's new management team credability with the big investment houses. Those guys like full transparancy.


Airbus owns the product now. Of course they can include the deliveries.

Didn't Boeing do the same following the acquisition of McD?
 
2175301
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:29 pm

Bricktop wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Now they have changed that to 682 deliveries of A319-A380 and 18 A220 (a new aircraft design they purchased) for a total of 800.

I suspect a typo in your quote, because if that's verbatim, pants are on fire at Airbus. :wink2:



Opps. you are correct. Thanks for pointing that out. I mistyped the first number.

But the line should have read "Now they have changed that to 782 deliveries of A319-A380 and 18 A220 (a new aircraft design they have purchased) for a total of 800.

I will try to edit my previous post.

Have a great day,
 
2175301
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 pm

smartplane wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
osiris30 wrote:

They are including C Series jets BBD produced and sold. That is not the point of the delivery number which is used to give investors guidance on expected revenue.

Including aircraft they have no right to list is borderline market manipulation. The A220 was not part of the 800 delivery forecast. If they want to include the A220 numbers they should revise the forecast up.

The OP is right about something that a lot of folks will miss: smart investors will see that and it will cost Airbus's new management team credability with the big investment houses. Those guys like full transparancy.


Airbus owns the product now. Of course they can include the deliveries.

Didn't Boeing do the same following the acquisition of McD?


It may be hard to find the records; but, I think that Boeing also increased their estimated yearly delivery estimate to include the expected McD production.

Had Airbus done the same they would have changed their projected to 818, adjusted up by 18 due to the inclusion of the acquired A220. That is in fact what they should have done, in my opinion.

Have a great day,
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:27 pm

2175301 wrote:
It may be hard to find the records; but, I think that Boeing also increased their estimated yearly delivery estimate to include the expected McD production.

Had Airbus done the same they would have changed their projected to 818, adjusted up by 18 due to the inclusion of the acquired A220. That is in fact what they should have done, in my opinion.


The gist I am getting is that Airbus will now only reach their 800-delivery guidance by including the 18 A220 deliveries so they could not raise it higher.
 
smartplane
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:28 pm

2175301 wrote:
smartplane wrote:
It may be hard to find the records; but, I think that Boeing also increased their estimated yearly delivery estimate to include the expected McD production.

Had Airbus done the same they would have changed their projected to 818, adjusted up by 18 due to the inclusion of the acquired A220. That is in fact what they should have done, in my opinion.

My recollection was that didn't occur until the start of the following financial year. But I'm old, and it's a couple of decades ago.

When all the sale/purchase formalities are completed, going forward, I'm sure the numbers will be harmonised.

Meanwhile, perhaps a correction / clarification in the next 48 hours.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:33 pm

Stitch wrote:
2175301 wrote:
It may be hard to find the records; but, I think that Boeing also increased their estimated yearly delivery estimate to include the expected McD production.

Had Airbus done the same they would have changed their projected to 818, adjusted up by 18 due to the inclusion of the acquired A220. That is in fact what they should have done, in my opinion.


The gist I am getting is that Airbus will now only reach their 800-delivery guidance by including the 18 A220 deliveries so they could not raise it higher.

Yep. Due to NEO delays (A320 and A330), the 800 deliveries in a year is a stretch goal. Meh...

A lot of noise over if they will cross the 800 threshold or not. Why me worry? ;)

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
marcelh
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:35 pm

PW100 wrote:
SC430 wrote:
Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal


As I read the Flight Global article, I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and put a negative headline spin to that. I just knew if would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom . . .


Yep, the usual suspects are at the front row....
 
SC430
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:15 pm

In 2014 John Leahy and other Airbus honchos held a press conference to announce a recently signed order with Amedeo,a leasing company. Leahy proudly announced " This FIRM order from Amedeo is a clear recognition of the A380's long-term market appeal" We later learned this was more of a re-marketing agreement with no real delivery criteria or penalties. The number might just as well been 10 frames or 50. The A380 was in an order drought at the time, so they created an order that is still lanquishing in the back log.

This A220 is more of the same. Airbus did not sell these planes, and the were built in Canada by Bombardier. Shame...
 
sciing
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:19 pm

Stitch wrote:
So according to the article, Airbus will be adding 18 A220 deliveries to their 2018 guidance.

Wikipedia says that 38 CSeries/A220 frames have been delivered by the end of September 2018. So Airbus is only claiming a subset of the total number of deliveries. Airbus took formal majority control of the program on 1 July, so how many frames were delivered and are scheduled to be delivered between 1 July and 31 December? If it is 18, I don't see an issue with them adding that to their guidance.

It is exactly that way. A220/CSeries deliveries are counted in Airbus O/D since July.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:20 pm

SC430 wrote:
In 2014 John Leahy and other Airbus honchos held a press conference to announce a recently signed order with Amedeo,a leasing company. Leahy proudly announced " This FIRM order from Amedeo is a clear recognition of the A380's long-term market appeal" We later learned this was more of a re-marketing agreement with no real delivery criteria or penalties. The number might just as well been 10 frames or 50. The A380 was in an order drought at the time, so they created an order that is still lanquishing in the back log.

This A220 is more of the same. Airbus did not sell these planes, and the were built in Canada by Bombardier. Shame...


Apples, meet oranges. If Amadeo has a firm order with flexible delivery dates, what’s the problem? Eventually it’ll be canceled if they don’t sell them.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
sciing
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:26 pm

SC430 wrote:
In 2014 John Leahy and other Airbus honchos held a press conference to announce a recently signed order with Amedeo,a leasing company. Leahy proudly announced " This FIRM order from Amedeo is a clear recognition of the A380's long-term market appeal" We later learned this was more of a re-marketing agreement with no real delivery criteria or penalties. The number might just as well been 10 frames or 50. The A380 was in an order drought at the time, so they created an order that is still lanquishing in the back log.

This A220 is more of the same. Airbus did not sell these planes, and the were built in Canada by Bombardier. Shame...

Airbus pays to run production and counts deliveries SINCE JULY. So you are a few months late for your SHAME claim. But I guess you missed some other crucial points, too.
Last edited by sciing on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sciing
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
SC430 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-absorbs-a220s-to-maintain-800-jet-delivery-ta-453172/?yptr=yahoo

TFA also says:

Airbus adds that it its working to resolve “certain commercial challenges” on the baseline A330 and A380 programmes, which it intends to complete by the end of this year.

Does anyone have any insights on that statement?

Hainan (no cash to take A330ceos) and Emirates (there are a bunch of stored EK A380 in TLS and XFW), what else?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:33 pm

Bricktop wrote:
PW100 wrote:
SC430 wrote:
Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal


As I read the Flight Global article, I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and put a negative headline spin to that. I just knew if would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom . . .

:rotfl:

I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and say "nothing to see here". I just knew I would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom. My money was on someone on a certain island around the 64th parallel north with a username evoking Norse mythology, and who is apparently an expert in aviation accounting. He surely would have risen to the defense of, and snuffed out this unseemly mockery of his beloved OEM. :wink2:


You seem to be a super hyper Boeing fan boy, fighting of attacks that have not happened or will never happen. I care about things that matter, If Airbus delivers 780 frames this year or 800 frames by coopting A220 deliveries since July this year, who cares?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:06 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
PW100 wrote:

As I read the Flight Global article, I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and put a negative headline spin to that. I just knew if would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom . . .

:rotfl:

I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and say "nothing to see here". I just knew I would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom. My money was on someone on a certain island around the 64th parallel north with a username evoking Norse mythology, and who is apparently an expert in aviation accounting. He surely would have risen to the defense of, and snuffed out this unseemly mockery of his beloved OEM. :wink2:


You seem to be a super hyper Boeing fan boy, fighting of attacks that have not happened or will never happen. I care about things that matter, If Airbus delivers 780 frames this year or 800 frames by coopting A220 deliveries since July this year, who cares?


Well it’s Airbus’ credibility so I’d assume that they care.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:42 am

MSPNWA wrote:
It's not an issue including A220 deliveries. What is the issue is not increasing the target by an equal amount. It's not being honest with the delivery target.


Its just a target. Airbus effectively lowered their target. Given all the powerplant issues, they probably wont reach their target anyway.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:28 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus press release speak about 330ceo issues, not NEO
Furthermore, Airbus is actively working to resolve certain commercial challenges on the A330ceo and A380 programmes that are targeted for completion by the year-end.

Maybe about HNA orders?

HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered, those in production lines are being delivered on time. As for their rumored A380, it's everyone guess if it will come to fruition. I highly doubt it.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:45 am

Well it’s Airbus’ credibility so I’d assume that they care.[/quote]
The question for me is why would management even try to fudge.
A sophisticated investor would pick this up immediately, so the comments must be for the non sophisticated or just as likely Govt.
I think the latter is the driver, and it is because of the size of Govt holdings and influence in Airbus.
For large investors credibility is everything, except for Govt where popularity is also a factor.

Once again (and I know I sound like a cracked record on this), Airbus will not reach it's full potential until it is free of the French, German and Spanish Govt holdings in itself)

Ruscoe.
 
Strato2
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:51 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
:rotfl:

I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and say "nothing to see here". I just knew I would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom. My money was on someone on a certain island around the 64th parallel north with a username evoking Norse mythology, and who is apparently an expert in aviation accounting. He surely would have risen to the defense of, and snuffed out this unseemly mockery of his beloved OEM. :wink2:


You seem to be a super hyper Boeing fan boy, fighting of attacks that have not happened or will never happen. I care about things that matter, If Airbus delivers 780 frames this year or 800 frames by coopting A220 deliveries since July this year, who cares?


Well it’s Airbus’ credibility so I’d assume that they care.



Only Boeing fanboys care. Even when Boeing said in the summer of 2007 that they will fly the 787 in the fall that year and first flight happened at the end of 2009 nobody seemed to care and we are talking orders of magnitude different things in that case.
 
2175301
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:08 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I care about things that matter, If Airbus delivers 780 frames this year or 800 frames by coopting A220 deliveries since July this year, who cares?


I never would have guessed that response from a person who has made such consistent statements that accuracy and not using different standards is so vital when discussing Boeing. Yet Airbus changing their standard mid year is just a "who cares" response from you....

In my opinion, this does not look good. It does not look good for Airbus. It does not look good for the new Airbus management. It does not look good for you. Might I suggest that you think through the issue and perhaps reevaluate your values and standards.

Have a great day,
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:09 am

Oh the horror!
@DadCelo
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:18 am

Stock market regulators insist that they have to give information to investors. Airbus made just update to their FY2018 outlook and actually give more detailed information about their FY2018 delivery expectations. Obviously they should give own releases to fanboys, so that they not be upset.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:22 am

juliuswong wrote:
HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered, those in production lines are being delivered on time. As for their rumored A380, it's everyone guess if it will come to fruition. I highly doubt it.

Ok, thanks about HNA info. If I look it right EK has taken this year only 4 A380's so far, maybe there is some delays ongoing?
 
sciing
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:47 am

juliuswong wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus press release speak about 330ceo issues, not NEO
Furthermore, Airbus is actively working to resolve certain commercial challenges on the A330ceo and A380 programmes that are targeted for completion by the year-end.

Maybe about HNA orders?

HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered, those in production lines are being delivered on time.

I doubt that looking on the production list.
What‘s about MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880? Just 1862 for Capital and 1851 for Lucky flew out this month!
Also most of the remaining A320neo gliders are for HNA airlines.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 am

sciing wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus press release speak about 330ceo issues, not NEO

Maybe about HNA orders?

HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered, those in production lines are being delivered on time.

I doubt that looking on the production list.
What‘s about MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880? Just 1862 for Capital and 1851 for Lucky flew out this month!
Also most of the remaining A320neo gliders are for HNA airlines.

I think he confused the A330 with the 787. Airbus still has an issue with the A330 deliveries to the HNA group airlines.

As for this thread, this is of course clear "fanboy" vs "fanboy"material, everybody else don't really care. And as always here the biggest "fanboys" accuse the others of being even bigger "fanboys".

I think it should be a rule on a-net that when you use the term "fanboy" in an argument you automatically lose the argument.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:17 am

sciing wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus press release speak about 330ceo issues, not NEO

Maybe about HNA orders?

HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered, those in production lines are being delivered on time.

I doubt that looking on the production list.
What‘s about MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880? Just 1862 for Capital and 1851 for Lucky flew out this month!
Also most of the remaining A320neo gliders are for HNA airlines.

Those A330ceo you have listed: MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880 are all flown from TLS to TSN for cabin fit. TSN cabin fit will take slightly longer time compared to TLS. HNA Group will eventually take all these A330ceo. They took in a few recently after earlier debacle.

As for the A320neo glider, it is most probably PW engines issue though, but don't quote me on it.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
TN486
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:34 am

So now we are comparing apples with aircraft. Oh deary deary me. Is this climate change, or what? Seesh.
remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:56 am

Strato2 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

You seem to be a super hyper Boeing fan boy, fighting of attacks that have not happened or will never happen. I care about things that matter, If Airbus delivers 780 frames this year or 800 frames by coopting A220 deliveries since July this year, who cares?


Well it’s Airbus’ credibility so I’d assume that they care.



Only Boeing fanboys care. Even when Boeing said in the summer of 2007 that they will fly the 787 in the fall that year and first flight happened at the end of 2009 nobody seemed to care and we are talking orders of magnitude different things in that case.


That’s rich coming from you. And are you suggesting that FlightGlobal are Boeing fanboys?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:09 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
That’s rich coming from you. And are you suggesting that FlightGlobal are Boeing fanboys?

I think that FlightGlobal article was quite neutral and they just repeat what Airbus said. They not write about trickery, what someones here do. Would you be happy if Airbus said that they expect around 780 deliveries + 18 A220?, instead all together 800 including 18 A220?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:17 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
That’s rich coming from you. And are you suggesting that FlightGlobal are Boeing fanboys?

I think that FlightGlobal article was quite neutral and they just repeat what Airbus said. They not write about trickery, what someones here do. Would you be happy if Airbus said that they expect around 780 deliveries + 18 A220?, instead all together 800 including 18 A220?


I wasn’t criticizing the article, I was pointing to an article as a source vs something conceived by “fanboys”. I already addressed that I neither like the tone or the OP’s approach in AvB discussions but that doesn’t change that there’s a bit of fudging going on.

Do I think it’s that big of a deal? Of course not. But I do find it unnecessary and a bit self-serving for Airbus to not be more clear.

Aside from that, you’re cool with labeling anyone who disagrees with Airbus’ approach as fanboys? Because you’re quick to address me but not the person I was replying to.

I actually like one aspect of this thread, and that’s getting to see everyone put their cards on the table.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:20 am

Airbus old delivery outlook was:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft, without the A220 Family.
• On top, around 18 A220 deliveries are targeted for H2.

new delivery outlook is:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft in 2018, now including around 18 A220 aircraft and the updated commercial aircraft delivery schedule.

Hard to see trickery here, just outlook update.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:28 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus old delivery outlook was:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft, without the A220 Family.
• On top, around 18 A220 deliveries are targeted for H2.

new delivery outlook is:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft in 2018, now including around 18 A220 aircraft and the updated commercial aircraft delivery schedule.

Hard to see trickery here, just outlook update.


True. Were those Airbus quotes?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
DGVT
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:28 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Well it’s Airbus’ credibility so I’d assume that they care.



Only Boeing fanboys care. Even when Boeing said in the summer of 2007 that they will fly the 787 in the fall that year and first flight happened at the end of 2009 nobody seemed to care and we are talking orders of magnitude different things in that case.


That’s rich coming from you. And are you suggesting that FlightGlobal are Boeing fanboys?


To me it seems that FlightGlobal did skew the facts. First of all yesterday’s event was mainly there to present 9M financial results. FlightGlobal seemed to put an emphasis on deliveries and not the financial results per se. Second it seems that they do not know what a consolidated financial statement is. Under IFRS it is the first quarter that Airbus is required to include the C Series in their financial statement. As this impacts the three financial statements, it does make sense to include A220 deliveries on. Also The FlightGlobal article left out what Airbus‘ CFO said to the analysts. According to the FT, he clearly stated that the delivery target of 800 will not be met without the A220, as the company is having issues with the A330neo and other aircraft. As a matter of fact he didn’t seem to give a very positive picture at all about the deliveries.

In the end what can be said is that every release of financial results can be interpreted differently. Analysts, investors, websites and fanboys can often pick out what suits them and portray it how they want. Instead of talking about not meeting the delivery target, one could be boosting how Airbus increased their 9M EBiT by 1bn €.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:31 am

DGVT wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Strato2 wrote:


Only Boeing fanboys care. Even when Boeing said in the summer of 2007 that they will fly the 787 in the fall that year and first flight happened at the end of 2009 nobody seemed to care and we are talking orders of magnitude different things in that case.


That’s rich coming from you. And are you suggesting that FlightGlobal are Boeing fanboys?


To me it seems that FlightGlobal did skew the facts. First of all yesterday’s event was mainly there to present 9M financial results. FlightGlobal seemed to put an emphasis on deliveries and not the financial results per se. Second it seems that they do not know what a consolidated financial statement is. Under IFRS it is the first quarter that Airbus is required to include the C Series in their financial statement. As this impacts the three financial statements, it does make sense to include A220 deliveries on. Also The FlightGlobal article left out what Airbus‘ CFO said to the analysts. According to the FT, he clearly stated that the delivery target of 800 will not be met without the A220, as the company is having issues with the A330neo and other aircraft. As a matter of fact he didn’t seem to give a very positive picture at all about the deliveries.

In the end what can be said is that every release of financial results can be interpreted differently. Analysts, investors, websites and fanboys can often pick out what suits them and portray it how they want. Instead of talking about not meeting the delivery target, one could be boosting how Airbus increased their 9M EBiT by 1bn €.


I don’t think there’s any issue at all with listing A220 deliveries. I also agree that they did not cast a positive delivery outlook.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:35 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus old delivery outlook was:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft, without the A220 Family.
• On top, around 18 A220 deliveries are targeted for H2.

new delivery outlook is:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft in 2018, now including around 18 A220 aircraft and the updated commercial aircraft delivery schedule.

Hard to see trickery here, just outlook update.


True. Were those Airbus quotes?

From Airbus press releases: https://www.airbus.com/investors/financ ... ports.html
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Aside from that, you’re cool with labeling anyone who disagrees with Airbus’ approach as fanboys? Because you’re quick to address me but not the person I was replying to.

I don't see reason to react if someone write about something what happened or not happened decade ago. ;)
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:42 am

armchairceonr1 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus old delivery outlook was:

new delivery outlook is:

Hard to see trickery here, just outlook update.


True. Were those Airbus quotes?

From Airbus press releases: https://www.airbus.com/investors/financ ... ports.html
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Aside from that, you’re cool with labeling anyone who disagrees with Airbus’ approach as fanboys? Because you’re quick to address me but not the person I was replying to.

I don't see reason to react if someone write about something what happened or not happened decade ago. ;)


I’m not even sure what that last part means but it’s 12:30a so I’ll let you have the last word.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
gadFly
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:56 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:32 am

Perhaps I don't understand the outrage here; I mean this is a corporate approach, not much morality here in any case. Didn't Boeing make a similar claim when it took over MDD in the 1990s? The MD-95 became the poorly named 717, and the 50 orders booked with ValueJet became part of Boeing's list. When you look at the WIkipedia entry, managed by someone in Seattle, it sounds like Boeing had a vision for the plane (not really--that's just want the page projects). It is standard corporate practice to claim as yours something you acquire even if you had no role in its creation. Going a bit off-topic, Volvo in the 1970s bought a small car brand called DAF and promptly canned the production, but it now had the patents for the steering system they implemented on the the 240 340-440-940 series and claimed in commercials it was their know-how!
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:39 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
PW100 wrote:

As I read the Flight Global article, I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and put a negative headline spin to that. I just knew if would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom . . .

:rotfl:

I was wondering how long it would take for A.net to come out and say "nothing to see here". I just knew I would not be disappointed. It was not question of if, just a question of when, and by whom. My money was on someone on a certain island around the 64th parallel north with a username evoking Norse mythology, and who is apparently an expert in aviation accounting. He surely would have risen to the defense of, and snuffed out this unseemly mockery of his beloved OEM. :wink2:


You seem to be a super hyper Boeing fan boy, fighting of attacks that have not happened or will never happen. I care about things that matter, If Airbus delivers 780 frames this year or 800 frames by coopting A220 deliveries since July this year, who cares?

Try defrosting your sense of humor, my friend. See the smilies?
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14094
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:45 am

SC430 wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-absorbs-a220s-to-maintain-800-jet-delivery-ta-453172/?yptr=yahoo

Airbus is counting A220 planes it did not sell or build in it's delivery total. Not good leadership.


If this was about Boeing, the article would start with the last 3 lines (most people don't read).

Airbus’ adjusted earnings for its commercial aircraft division at the nine-month stage trebled to €2.34 billion, with revenues increasing by 11% to €30.5 billion.

Its third-quarter performance has benefited, it says, from improvements to ramp-up on the A320neo-family programme and good progress on the A350 programme.


Great reporting,

juggling around the facts to work towards a predefined header.

:worried:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:44 am

SC430 wrote:
Of course it's not an issue. I forgot... Airbus invented an $8 billion order to Amedeo, what's the big deal with adding a dozen regional jets to the delivery total!! Boeing would be hung by the SEC for a lot less.


Lol. You have no clue what you are talking about. Is that the same SEC that missed the pile of bull$hit Enron heaped on their plate? Or the same SEC that audited Madoff for over a decade and couldn't spot a fraud? Or the same SEC that oversaw the financial disclosures of the large financial institutions while they bought/sold/repackaged AAA rated debt they knew was bull$hit and then tanked the global ecomomy?

I work for a firm that is subject to SEC and FINRA regulation. The regulators don't work like the public think they do. The bigger the firm that is being subjected to regulation and review, the less the chance that the regulators will catch a firm that is squirrely and then send enforcement after the firm in question (happy to explain the mechanism in more detail). The only time enforcement is sent in, is when a firm commits a crime or acts in a way that is so deplorable that it becomes a matter of political nature (like Wells Fargo opening millions of fraudulent accounts for example).

Just to check on my experience relative to Boeing, I looked up Boeing's past with the SEC. And I pretty much found nothing. Boeing was probed for its program accounting practices by the SEC, but the regulators made it clear from the start they did not think they would send this to enforcement. This was effectively a CYA effort. Beyond that, the next item I found was from 1982 or thereabouts when Boeing was fined 400k plus 50k court costs for hiding 7 million in commissions for sales between 1971 and 1974. They have been virtually untouched for the better part of 50 years despite running one of the most complex global organizations on the planet.

So let's please stop the faux outrage against Euro regulating entities and pretending that if only Boeing was under their purview that they would not have such a massive disadvantage. If anything, my experience dealing with UK regulators tells me that Euro regulators are far more thorough and demanding than US regulators.
 
sciing
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:54 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:54 am

juliuswong wrote:
sciing wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered, those in production lines are being delivered on time.

I doubt that looking on the production list.
What‘s about MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880? Just 1862 for Capital and 1851 for Lucky flew out this month!
Also most of the remaining A320neo gliders are for HNA airlines.

Those A330ceo you have listed: MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880 are all flown from TLS to TSN for cabin fit. TSN cabin fit will take slightly longer time compared to TLS.

Only 1860 and 1880 flew to TSN in April and June, the rest was fitted out in TLS. MSN 1881 and 1885 for MU and CZ arrived later in TSN and have been delivered.
http://a380.boards.net/post/32818

HNA Group will eventually take all these A330ceo.

Last time you wrote they "have been delivered".

but don't quote me on it.

Yes, better not! The Hainan A330 story is clearly not solved.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19279
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:25 am

SC430 wrote:
Shame on Airbus... This was done to mislead the general public on the severity of the on going delays.


The 'general public' couldn't care less about Airbus deliveries. There's also no misleading going on if one actually reads Airbus's presser. You did read the Airbus presser, didn't you?

Revelation wrote:
Airbus has a history of dodginess when it comes to this kind of thing, such as the well known "5th quarter" bookings


I really thought we'd all grown up beyond this...

Geoff1947 wrote:
So you raised this thread without reading the Airbus statement......


It would appear so.

flee wrote:
Yes, they own a majority stake of the C-series program from 1 July 2018 and they can include deliveries from that date.


That would seem entirely reasonable.

armchairceonr1 wrote:
No they don't. They make pretty clear that they have challenges with deliveries and their current estimate is 800 including A220. Mean that they actually downgrade delivery target.


To accept that requires reading the Airbus presser which some clearly haven't. That and comprehension.

Stitch wrote:
If it is 18, I don't see an issue with them adding that to their guidance.


Indeed not, especially as they specifically state that the 800 guidance now includes the 18 A220s whereas it previously didn't.

smartplane wrote:
Didn't Boeing do the same following the acquisition of McD?


I believe so. The fact that Boeing and McD merged and Airbus has bought a single program from BBD make no difference. The A220 is an Airbus product since the deal was completed. Sales and deliveries from the completion of the purchase are now Airbus's.

Stitch wrote:
The gist I am getting is that Airbus will now only reach their 800-delivery guidance by including the 18 A220 deliveries so they could not raise it higher."

Exactly!

armchairceonr1 wrote:
Airbus old delivery outlook was:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft, without the A220 Family.
• On top, around 18 A220 deliveries are targeted for H2.

new delivery outlook is:
• Airbus targets to deliver around 800 commercial aircraft in 2018, now including around 18 A220 aircraft and the updated commercial aircraft delivery schedule.

Hard to see trickery here, just outlook update.


Apparently not hard enough for those that want to see "trickery".

The rest of this thread is, to use a popular coloqualism, a big, fat nothingburger. No cheathing, no deception, no lying, no trickery. As you were. Keep calm and carry on.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Geoff1947
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Airbus revises 2018 delivery target

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:30 pm

Think this is really about bragging rights. In the current febrile US political environment it is important to some that Boeing is seen to triumph over the evil aliens !!

Geoff
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:34 pm

sciing wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
sciing wrote:
I doubt that looking on the production list.
What‘s about MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880? Just 1862 for Capital and 1851 for Lucky flew out this month!
Also most of the remaining A320neo gliders are for HNA airlines.

Those A330ceo you have listed: MSN 1860, 1863, 1865, 1866, 1871, 1874, 1875, 1880 are all flown from TLS to TSN for cabin fit. TSN cabin fit will take slightly longer time compared to TLS.

Only 1860 and 1880 flew to TSN in April and June, the rest was fitted out in TLS. MSN 1881 and 1885 for MU and CZ arrived later in TSN and have been delivered. http://a380.boards.net/post/32818

HNA Group will eventually take all these A330ceo.

Last time you wrote they "have been delivered".

but don't quote me on it.

Yes, better not! The Hainan A330 story is clearly not solved.

Do you have an axe to grind with me or something? In which part have I stated all of HNA Group A330ceo have been delivered? I was saying those six which were backlogged and spotted at TLS during A220 unveiling ceremony, all built and ready to be delivered have been delivered subsequently. Those seven backlogged were:
1840 Airbus A330-343 B-1045 Tianjin Airlines
1843 Airbus A330-343 B-1004 Lucky Air
1847 Airbus A330-243 B-1043 Capital Airlines
1849 Airbus A330-343 B-302D Tianjin Airlines
1851 Airbus A330-343 B-1014 Lucky Air
1855 Airbus A330-343 B-1048 Hainan Airlines
1862 Airbus A330-343 B-1042 Capital Airlines

The remaining A330-343 which were "new" in production line and not backlogged, are now being cleared or being prepared for deliveries or may not get delivered at all (if you want to put it that way):
1860 Airbus A330-343 B-1097 Hainan Airlines- In TSN for cabin fit
1863 Airbus A330-343 B-LHF Hong Kong Airlines
1865 Airbus A330-343 B-LHG Hong Kong Airlines
1866 Airbus A330-343 B- Lucky Air
1871 Airbus A330-343 B- Hainan Airlines
1874 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines
1875 Airbus A330-343 B-1098 Hainan Airlines
1880 Airbus A330-343 B- Capital Airlines- In TSN for cabin fit
1893 Airbus A330-343 B-304L Hainan Airlines- In TSN for cabin fit
1896 Airbus A330-343 B-303C Hainan Airlines
1898 Airbus A330-343 B-303Z Hainan Airlines
1899 Airbus A330-343 B-304K Hainan Airlines
1902 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines
1907 Airbus A330-343 B- Hong Kong Airlines
Source: https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... tus=future

Fine, just to satisfy you further: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... rder-books
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Airbus revises 2018 delivery target

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:01 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
Think this is really about bragging rights. In the current febrile US political environment it is important to some that Boeing is seen to triumph over the evil aliens !!

Geoff

:lol: :shakehead: You'll pull a hamstring stretching like that mate!
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Airbus revises 2018 delivery target

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:08 pm

I think the true story here is Airbus is not hitting their delivery targets. I do not see deception on their part. I see a company with significant problems.

Those are:

1. New management struggling to find its way.

2. Poorly selling products in the A380 and a misread of the market with the A330 neo.

3. Engine problems with two programs, one of which, the A320 neo PW issue is really hurting deliveries.

4. An underestimation of Boeing and their ability to bring down production costs on the 787 program, and Boeing's ability to accurately predict trends in commercial aviation.

Airbus will get it's act together eventually, but no question right now they are going through a rough time.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
sciing
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:54 am

Re: Airbus resorts to trickery on delivery goal

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:17 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Do you have an axe to grind with me or something? In which part have I stated all of HNA Group A330ceo have been delivered?

There
juliuswong wrote:
HNA Group A3300ceo order has been sorted, all backlogged aircraft have been delivered


A reminder of the discussion
1st Airbus said they have commercial issue with the A330
2nd Someone ask what does it mean and someone said its is about HNA.
3rd You said (more or less) the HNA issues are solved. At least I understood your 1st comment, "all frame have been delivered", in that way.
That means for me no delayed ones waiting for delivery, no new issues for the one in production, if there are still delayed ones they would explain the comment by Airbus which we are talking about on this thread.
4th I show you a bunch of delayed ones, which you claim they are in TSN (where just 2 were in reality and even this 2 ones are delayed).

To come back on topic, Airbus is talking about HNA! Do you disagree?
 
armchairceonr1
Posts: 293
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Airbus revises 2018 delivery target

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:21 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
4. An underestimation of Boeing and their ability to bring down production costs on the 787 program, and Boeing's ability to accurately predict trends in commercial aviation.

You seems to be very clever guy and that's why I want you tell us how much 787-9 production cost is now and how much in the future? I and many analyst will be very grateful about your knowledge.

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