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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:00 am

Max Q wrote:
AA / US always seemed the weakest combination by far but there was no one else left for American to join up with, they should have done a deal with NW as was proposed years before the big wave of consolidation

It would have given them a Pacific network overnight, with their good European network, total domination of S America and robust domestic system they’d have had a
route system that could challenge United


Although with DL/NW the Pacific network is shrinking. Given AA’s relationship with JL and oneworld member CX I wonder if the Pacific network would have been stronger than DL’s is today.
 
Max Q
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:10 am

MSPNWA wrote:
N649DL wrote:
NW Cons: ..... old fleet, .... dated and crusty interiors.


At the end of 2007, NW's mainline average fleet age was 17.5 years (this included the aging cargo 742s as well). However, it was skewed by the DC-9s (which were anything but "dated and crusty" on the inside). If you remove the DC-9s, NW's average fleet age was only 11.1 years. And they likely had the youngest average PAX widebody age among the legacies at the time (6.3 years). DL's average mainline age at the end of 2007? 13.6 years (interesting to note how the average age for the combined carrier has risen since the merger, even with the DC-9s skewing the baseline). NW's regional fleet was younger as well (5.3 vs. 8.2). It's simply a misleading perception that NW had an old fleet, and DL had a young fleet.

I didn't fly DL prior to 2009 (and had not flown NW much either). However I did fly both carriers quite frequently in the years immediately after the tie-up. The "crustiest" interiors I found were usually DL. The 75Vs. The standard 752s. The 763 domestics and, at the time, the 763ERs. The AVOD-less 738s. On the regional side, the old CR1s. Much of DLs fleet was in rough shape in 2008 until interior mods hit full stride a couple years later. Aside from the 5500 series 752s, NW's aircraft interiors were generally well-maintained. Most weren't fancy, that's for sure, but crusty and old they were not.

Which brings up another thing I miss from NW and other airlines--cloth seats. So much more comfortable.

There's a reason these threads don't go well. Many still haven't rooted their outsider opinions of NW in reality. It's like an airline dead, buried, and then inaccurately smeared as the survivor stands over the grave.



All very good points


And I couldn’t agree with you more
about cloth seats, I can’t stand sitting
on a leather seat in an aircraft, it’s a
terrible idea
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
N649DL
Posts: 991
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:39 am

Max Q wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
N649DL wrote:
NW Cons: ..... old fleet, .... dated and crusty interiors.


At the end of 2007, NW's mainline average fleet age was 17.5 years (this included the aging cargo 742s as well). However, it was skewed by the DC-9s (which were anything but "dated and crusty" on the inside). If you remove the DC-9s, NW's average fleet age was only 11.1 years. And they likely had the youngest average PAX widebody age among the legacies at the time (6.3 years). DL's average mainline age at the end of 2007? 13.6 years (interesting to note how the average age for the combined carrier has risen since the merger, even with the DC-9s skewing the baseline). NW's regional fleet was younger as well (5.3 vs. 8.2). It's simply a misleading perception that NW had an old fleet, and DL had a young fleet.

I didn't fly DL prior to 2009 (and had not flown NW much either). However I did fly both carriers quite frequently in the years immediately after the tie-up. The "crustiest" interiors I found were usually DL. The 75Vs. The standard 752s. The 763 domestics and, at the time, the 763ERs. The AVOD-less 738s. On the regional side, the old CR1s. Much of DLs fleet was in rough shape in 2008 until interior mods hit full stride a couple years later. Aside from the 5500 series 752s, NW's aircraft interiors were generally well-maintained. Most weren't fancy, that's for sure, but crusty and old they were not.

Which brings up another thing I miss from NW and other airlines--cloth seats. So much more comfortable.

There's a reason these threads don't go well. Many still haven't rooted their outsider opinions of NW in reality. It's like an airline dead, buried, and then inaccurately smeared as the survivor stands over the grave.



All very good points


And I couldn’t agree with you more
about cloth seats, I can’t stand sitting
on a leather seat in an aircraft, it’s a
terrible idea


This is obviously extreme bias and dare I say "Fake News". How many DC-9s did NW have while merging with DL? I count at least 2 full pages on Planespotters.net with the -50s getting DL-based interiors and the -30s and -40s going right to the graveyard. They had some models from 1967 in the fleet which partner CO manically did the complete opposite of having a new fleet. Pros and cons to both strategies I suppose, more debt for CO and slightly less MX costs on old frames already paid off by NW.

Granted, impressive they kept them up that way but I'm sure DL HQ was thinking like "How in the hell can we afford to do this with fuel prices the way they are?" back in around 2011-2012. NW had vintage 1960s and 1970s DC-9s integrated into DL until up around 2013-2014 and NW was the last carrier to dump the DC-10s in the late 2000s. Believe me, DL was quick to retire the weak links of the NW fleet like the old 757s, DC-9s, A320 and soon to come a lot more MD-88 from PMDL. They aren't stupid, NW management knows how to fly a plane until it's desert ready for retirement. And those folks are largely in charge of making their 777s fly for another 20+ years.

And apologies, but what are you referring to with the DL domestic 763s? It's likely that ex-NW personnel spearheaded that project since it happened around 2007 and there was already lots of cross pollination between NW/DL via SkyTeam and management teams were already teaming up to merge. Crusty what? Those seats and AVOD systems were brand new at the time in aircraft that were scrapped recently pushing 30 years of age in the last few years (as in those 1980s interiors were removed and implemented from scratch except for the overhead bins which people exploit hard around here it seems).

It's absolutely misleading this data point picked out when, what, DL had maybe two dozen domestic 763s at most and they were delivered between 1987 and 1999 for the most part? DL had some 757s with modern day AVOD systems post merger from the "Song" days they carried over. They had several ships from 1985 that had those new interiors and people literally thought they were brand new aircraft and are now retired. So what's NW's excuse for busted up domestic interiors? The fact they have captive hub markets or something? Your point about 747-200s are meaningless as they were on the way out in 2009 when they merged with DL. They were the first to go.

I really do believe there is a significant bias with your opinion towards NW and DL merger. Query "Tower Air" 747 cloth seats. They were crusted over on relic ex-PA 747s and looked exactly like NW's old seats. Absolutely gross. It doesn't matter about material, it has to do with the condition of the seat installed. For instance I loved the PMUA 757 or A320 leather cloth seats that got removed in favor of those largely uncomfortable slimline seats or the PMCO 737s which were just anal hell in comparison.

DL literally just put over cheap leather and the public thought it was fine. What they have now with AVOD on the Airbus 319/320 is genuinely leaps ahead of what they had when they were NW, and certainly better than having cheap ass material or no IFE. DL worked wonders on those birds and made them look like a Greyhound Bust to a Cadillac in economy with the new AVOD systems.

I suppose some are just upset about not reporting to Eagan, MN anymore instead of ATL but give me a break. I worked for a company as part of an acquisition based in MSP in LA and they were nothing but passive aggressive scumbags. Sorry, but "Minnesota Nice" is a real thing. So thank God DL yanked them out in favor of ATL (not much better but really, com'on.)

I spent a lot of time writing this post late at night so I ask you to respond conveniently and accurately. I'm a new member and the spinning on this forum is absolute tragedy.
 
Max Q
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:44 am

What’s a ‘leather cloth seat’ ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
N649DL
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:22 pm

Max Q wrote:
What’s a ‘leather cloth seat’ ?


Are you a bot or something? I think you know those interiors quite well. The NW was all cloth, DL installed leather on the entire fleet post merger.
 
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compensateme
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:20 pm

I agree with @MSPNWA - a.net tends to manufacture its own facts and create fan fiction.

At the time of the merger’s announcement, NW operate 32 long-haul aircraft equipped with nose-to-tail AVOD. DL had -zero- (and just 8 log-haul aircraft equipped with PTVs in economy, showing limited looped programming). All of NW’s long-haul aircraft were configured with angled, lie flat business class seating. DL was using much older and inferior recliners. NW insiders (who now provide similar info for DL) claimed the airline was ready to announce its DC-9 replacement - shiny, new E-195. Meanwhile, DL was shopping for used MD-80 (but decided on MD-90 instead). Not what reading a.net would lead to believe, huh?

That’s not to say that NW was a better airline than DL — fact is, both airlines had their positives and negatives — just that the portrayal of NW (NW was a struggling, bankrupt airline that would’ve otherwise liquidated and DL played the role of a white knight) is completely false.

Comparing DL’s onboard product in 2018 to NW’s in 2008 is unfair - just like DL, Post-bankruptcy NW committed to investing in its product. NW insiders indicated that NW was about to place a large E-195 order, which would’ve replaced the DC-9 fleet, as well as many of the CR9 and E-75 routes, which in turn would’ve replaced many of the CRJ routes (beginning the process of phasing then out). One reliable NW source indicated that the remaining CRJ would receive First Class and that NW would begin to aggressively refurbish its mainline fleet, starting with the 5500 series 757. The source also indicated that they were exploring IFE options, and onboard product enhancements. Kar’s Nuts openly explores state incentives, saying they were competing for a contract (likely with King Nut) for a major airline consumer.

DL, for its part, began exploring merger opportunities because it did not feel SLC or CVG were viable hubs, building NYC was risky and resource consuming and ATL was heavily exposed to junk traffic flows (e.g. Florida). NW was not its first but likely only option, but it worked out:

-LGA build up? Acquired with NW assets (DCA slots NW has acquired from EA and had been leading to US, now permanently traded for LGA).
-ATL superhub? Enhanced via NW traffic flows... there’s oodles of Midwest’s cities on which ATL was the 4th or 5th largest connecting point, and many where it didn’t have service, but is now #1.
-SEA hub? Made possible by leveraging NW’s FF base, which had been historically strong in SEA.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Max Q
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:38 am

N649DL wrote:
Max Q wrote:
What’s a ‘leather cloth seat’ ?


Are you a bot or something? I think you know those interiors quite well. The NW was all cloth, DL installed leather on the entire fleet post merger.




Your answer is incomprehensible



You can have a seat with a leather or cloth covering but not both normally



Hence my question ‘what is a leather cloth seat’ ?


It has still not been answered



I can’t help you with your ‘bot’ issue
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
BravoOne
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:11 am

B757Forever wrote:
Max Q wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I wanted a Delta/Continental merger. It would have been amazing. They were the two most professional workgroups in the industry. Both took pride in their work.



Have to disagreement, while both employee groups were and are very
professional a DL / CO merger would
not have been a good fit, no great strategic
advantages and the culture of the two
airlines was totally different


A merger was proposed in fact but shot
down by Continental’s CEO, Gordon Bethune when DL proposed ‘ stapling
all CO employees to the bottom of
a merged seniority list’


With the Western Merger, The Pan Am acquisition and the Northwest Merger, Delta integrated all of the seniority lists by DOE at the respective carrier. I've never heard this statement about the proposed DL/CO merger.




DOE/DOH?? I must have missed that one. Where do you come up with that stuff as it's simply not factual, but the I suppose you knew that already.
Regardless it worked pretty darn well. I cannot imagine CAL and DAL, way to many dead fish in that pond.
 
N649DL
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:11 pm

Max Q wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Max Q wrote:
What’s a ‘leather cloth seat’ ?


Are you a bot or something? I think you know those interiors quite well. The NW was all cloth, DL installed leather on the entire fleet post merger.




Your answer is incomprehensible



You can have a seat with a leather or cloth covering but not both normally



Hence my question ‘what is a leather cloth seat’ ?


It has still not been answered



I can’t help you with your ‘bot’ issue


It's simply because I'm not answering your question since you likely picked out a piece of my long post (likely a grammar issue) and using it as a distraction to my argument. If you actually make an argument or reply to my response then I'll answer you back. In the meantime keep up with the vague responses and continuing to sound like "The Borg" from Star Trek.
 
B757Forever
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:04 am

BravoOne wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
Max Q wrote:


Have to disagreement, while both employee groups were and are very
professional a DL / CO merger would
not have been a good fit, no great strategic
advantages and the culture of the two
airlines was totally different


A merger was proposed in fact but shot
down by Continental’s CEO, Gordon Bethune when DL proposed ‘ stapling
all CO employees to the bottom of
a merged seniority list’


With the Western Merger, The Pan Am acquisition and the Northwest Merger, Delta integrated all of the seniority lists by DOE at the respective carrier. I've never heard this statement about the proposed DL/CO merger.




DOE/DOH?? I must have missed that one. Where do you come up with that stuff as it's simply not factual, but the I suppose you knew that already.
Regardless it worked pretty darn well. I cannot imagine CAL and DAL, way to many dead fish in that pond.



BravoOne, I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you please clarify?
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
questions
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:22 am

Max Q wrote:
You can have a seat with a leather or cloth covering but not both normally


The original BusinessElite seats were a combination.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/14050
 
N649DL
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:13 am

compensateme wrote:
I agree with @MSPNWA - a.net tends to manufacture its own facts and create fan fiction.

At the time of the merger’s announcement, NW operate 32 long-haul aircraft equipped with nose-to-tail AVOD. DL had -zero- (and just 8 log-haul aircraft equipped with PTVs in economy, showing limited looped programming). All of NW’s long-haul aircraft were configured with angled, lie flat business class seating. DL was using much older and inferior recliners. NW insiders (who now provide similar info for DL) claimed the airline was ready to announce its DC-9 replacement - shiny, new E-195. Meanwhile, DL was shopping for used MD-80 (but decided on MD-90 instead). Not what reading a.net would lead to believe, huh?

That’s not to say that NW was a better airline than DL — fact is, both airlines had their positives and negatives — just that the portrayal of NW (NW was a struggling, bankrupt airline that would’ve otherwise liquidated and DL played the role of a white knight) is completely false.

Comparing DL’s onboard product in 2018 to NW’s in 2008 is unfair - just like DL, Post-bankruptcy NW committed to investing in its product. NW insiders indicated that NW was about to place a large E-195 order, which would’ve replaced the DC-9 fleet, as well as many of the CR9 and E-75 routes, which in turn would’ve replaced many of the CRJ routes (beginning the process of phasing then out). One reliable NW source indicated that the remaining CRJ would receive First Class and that NW would begin to aggressively refurbish its mainline fleet, starting with the 5500 series 757. The source also indicated that they were exploring IFE options, and onboard product enhancements. Kar’s Nuts openly explores state incentives, saying they were competing for a contract (likely with King Nut) for a major airline consumer.

DL, for its part, began exploring merger opportunities because it did not feel SLC or CVG were viable hubs, building NYC was risky and resource consuming and ATL was heavily exposed to junk traffic flows (e.g. Florida). NW was not its first but likely only option, but it worked out:

-LGA build up? Acquired with NW assets (DCA slots NW has acquired from EA and had been leading to US, now permanently traded for LGA).
-ATL superhub? Enhanced via NW traffic flows... there’s oodles of Midwest’s cities on which ATL was the 4th or 5th largest connecting point, and many where it didn’t have service, but is now #1.
-SEA hub? Made possible by leveraging NW’s FF base, which had been historically strong in SEA.


Regarding PTV that's not exactly true. At the time of the merger DL had the ex-Song 757s which had nose to tail AVOD (close to 50 of them), the domestic 763s (AVOD) and around 30 738s as well (AVOD). Internationally you're correct that DL didn't have any, except the 77L's which had AVOD (under 10 of them) and the looped video on the 777-200s. NW definitely had a nice product on the 330s, no question about it. It was the domestic fleet that was barebones.

Up front both airlines were similar with video systems. NW it was the 744 and 330 that had AVOD and DL definitely the 763s and I think the 764. Going way back I believe both airlines had PTV in F on the D10 and M11 as well.
 
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klm617
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:02 am

I think what really upsets most people is the Delta took all the best parts of Northwest and moved them to ATL. MSP and DTW were more than adequate connecting hubs for most east west traffic but Delta took that and moved that capacity to ATL. MSP and DTW were going places in the Northwest network but when Delta came in they brought those two hubs to a screeching halt for many years and they slowly quarter by quarter moved traffic that flowed over DTW and MSP to ATL by reducing capacity and making using DTW or MSP to get from east to west or vice versa inconvenient even though DTW was a far superior connecting point than Atlanta was for ease of connections. They made DTW RJ heaven while they kept adding more mainline to ATL. CAK is a great example of that Delta doesn't like low yielding traffic but yet retains only ATL-CAK nonstop meaning it can only get you south from CAK meaning for the most part low yielding traffic now if they had dropped everything from CAK expect Detroit the high end passengers could connect almost any where in the Delta network through Detroit with a very short stage length of less than an hour. Being they shifted everything to ATL they have cut off 2/3 of their network from CAK. These are the things that are upsetting about Delta ATL is the only hub that has benefitted from this merger as it keeps growing there at the expense of the former Northwest hubs mainly MSP and more so DTW.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Fargo
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:09 am

klm617 wrote:
I think what really upsets most people is the Delta took all the best parts of Northwest and moved them to ATL. MSP and DTW were more than adequate connecting hubs for most east west traffic but Delta took that and moved that capacity to ATL. MSP and DTW were going places in the Northwest network but when Delta came in they brought those two hubs to a screeching halt for many years and they slowly quarter by quarter moved traffic that flowed over DTW and MSP to ATL by reducing capacity and making using DTW or MSP to get from east to west or vice versa inconvenient even though DTW was a far superior connecting point than Atlanta was for ease of connections. They made DTW RJ heaven while they kept adding more mainline to ATL. CAK is a great example of that Delta doesn't like low yielding traffic but yet retains only ATL-CAK nonstop meaning it can only get you south from CAK meaning for the most part low yielding traffic now if they had dropped everything from CAK expect Detroit the high end passengers could connect almost any where in the Delta network through Detroit with a very short stage length of less than an hour. Being they shifted everything to ATL they have cut off 2/3 of their network from CAK. These are the things that are upsetting about Delta ATL is the only hub that has benefitted from this merger as it keeps growing there at the expense of the former Northwest hubs mainly MSP and more so DTW.


Ok, how many daily departures did DTW and MSP have at the peak of the NW hub days?
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5112
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:17 pm

Fargo wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think what really upsets most people is the Delta took all the best parts of Northwest and moved them to ATL. MSP and DTW were more than adequate connecting hubs for most east west traffic but Delta took that and moved that capacity to ATL. MSP and DTW were going places in the Northwest network but when Delta came in they brought those two hubs to a screeching halt for many years and they slowly quarter by quarter moved traffic that flowed over DTW and MSP to ATL by reducing capacity and making using DTW or MSP to get from east to west or vice versa inconvenient even though DTW was a far superior connecting point than Atlanta was for ease of connections. They made DTW RJ heaven while they kept adding more mainline to ATL. CAK is a great example of that Delta doesn't like low yielding traffic but yet retains only ATL-CAK nonstop meaning it can only get you south from CAK meaning for the most part low yielding traffic now if they had dropped everything from CAK expect Detroit the high end passengers could connect almost any where in the Delta network through Detroit with a very short stage length of less than an hour. Being they shifted everything to ATL they have cut off 2/3 of their network from CAK. These are the things that are upsetting about Delta ATL is the only hub that has benefitted from this merger as it keeps growing there at the expense of the former Northwest hubs mainly MSP and more so DTW.


Ok, how many daily departures did DTW and MSP have at the peak of the NW hub days?


Detroit is down about 200 departures from it's peak.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Breathe
Posts: 687
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:24 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Just something very trivial/cosmetic...

When United Air Lines merged with Continental Airlines, the name of the new airline was United Airlines.

When Delta Air Lines merged with Northwest Airlines, the name of the new airline was Delta Air Lines.

UAL was known as United Airlines before the merger with Continental Airlines.
The Accident Report for N612UA (UAL Flight 175 on 9/11/01) lists the airline as United Airlines, the newspapers articles about the merger list the airline as United Airlines.

I cannot pinpoint when United Air Lines became United Airlines, but it was before the UAL-COA merger.

I stand corrected then. I think I probably thought it was still called United Air Lines because of the name of the corporate holding company UAL Corp.
 
Fargo
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
Fargo wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think what really upsets most people is the Delta took all the best parts of Northwest and moved them to ATL. MSP and DTW were more than adequate connecting hubs for most east west traffic but Delta took that and moved that capacity to ATL. MSP and DTW were going places in the Northwest network but when Delta came in they brought those two hubs to a screeching halt for many years and they slowly quarter by quarter moved traffic that flowed over DTW and MSP to ATL by reducing capacity and making using DTW or MSP to get from east to west or vice versa inconvenient even though DTW was a far superior connecting point than Atlanta was for ease of connections. They made DTW RJ heaven while they kept adding more mainline to ATL. CAK is a great example of that Delta doesn't like low yielding traffic but yet retains only ATL-CAK nonstop meaning it can only get you south from CAK meaning for the most part low yielding traffic now if they had dropped everything from CAK expect Detroit the high end passengers could connect almost any where in the Delta network through Detroit with a very short stage length of less than an hour. Being they shifted everything to ATL they have cut off 2/3 of their network from CAK. These are the things that are upsetting about Delta ATL is the only hub that has benefitted from this merger as it keeps growing there at the expense of the former Northwest hubs mainly MSP and more so DTW.


Ok, how many daily departures did DTW and MSP have at the peak of the NW hub days?


Detroit is down about 200 departures from it's peak.


So you are saying they had around 650 with NW and now with DL, they only have around 450?
 
N212R
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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:27 pm

max999 wrote:
Your best course of action is to contact the SEC if you believe Delta is making false public statements and is printing misleading infographics.


Delta has plenty of friend among the Safeguards of Economic Cronyism...
 
winginit
Posts: 2970
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:54 am

Fargo wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Ok, how many daily departures did DTW and MSP have at the peak of the NW hub days?


Detroit is down about 200 departures from it's peak.


So you are saying they had around 650 with NW and now with DL, they only have around 450?


To put some numbers behind his statement, DTW peaked in 2005 at an average of 573 daily departures (that's combining only NW and DL). As of 2018, DL averages 393 departures per day, so down 179 daily departures from the 2005 peak.
 
mutu
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:19 pm

The infographic posted above has some interesting interpretations comparing 2008 with 2018:

With a 10% increase in passengers carried, and a nearly flat headcount, newDelta has managed to nearly double revenue......NO wonder it is such a powerful business today!
 
Max Q
Posts: 8514
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:27 pm

questions wrote:
Max Q wrote:
You can have a seat with a leather or cloth covering but not both normally


The original BusinessElite seats were a combination.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/14050



Thanks for your informative and rational
reply


A picture is worth a thousand words !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
jfern022
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:42 pm

winginit wrote:
Fargo wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Detroit is down about 200 departures from it's peak.


So you are saying they had around 650 with NW and now with DL, they only have around 450?


To put some numbers behind his statement, DTW peaked in 2005 at an average of 573 daily departures (that's combining only NW and DL). As of 2018, DL averages 393 departures per day, so down 179 daily departures from the 2005 peak.


To be fair, how many of those "departures lost" have been due to up gauging?

We all know Concourse B/C isn't as full as it was in it's heyday. I have a feeling that a lot lost was due to up gauging, which no matter the opinion is better for the customer.
 
MSPNWA
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:35 pm

mutu wrote:
The infographic posted above has some interesting interpretations comparing 2008 with 2018:

With a 10% increase in passengers carried, and a nearly flat headcount, newDelta has managed to nearly double revenue......NO wonder it is such a powerful business today!


I called that out earlier in the thread. It's not accurate. Actual revenue for both companies in 2008 was in the $32-33B range. So still a significant increase, but only in the high-20s to near 30%.

jfern022 wrote:
To be fair, how many of those "departures lost" have been due to up gauging?

We all know Concourse B/C isn't as full as it was in it's heyday. I have a feeling that a lot lost was due to up gauging, which no matter the opinion is better for the customer.


It's definitely not objectively better for the consumer. Losing frequency or service entirely is a 100% downgrade for the customer that would booked those flights if they existed. And for the flights that do exist, many upgauges have no significant advantages to the customer. Sure, there are some winners in upgauging, but the net effect is very debatable.

But there is one stat that can't be argued with in the thread's context. Since 2008, DTW and MSP are two of the slower growing top-25 airports in the U.S in enplanements (4th and 9th-slowest by percentage). And MSP's growth is primarily due to non-DL carriers.

It's tough to argue that the tie-up was a success for the MSP and DTW hubs in light of the sector as a whole.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:07 pm

Max Q wrote:
questions wrote:
Max Q wrote:
You can have a seat with a leather or cloth covering but not both normally


The original BusinessElite seats were a combination.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/14050



Thanks for your informative and rational
reply


A picture is worth a thousand words !


Oh yeh, sure. No problem dude.
 
SteelChair
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mutu wrote:
The infographic posted above has some interesting interpretations comparing 2008 with 2018:

With a 10% increase in passengers carried, and a nearly flat headcount, newDelta has managed to nearly double revenue......NO wonder it is such a powerful business today!


I called that out earlier in the thread. It's not accurate. Actual revenue for both companies in 2008 was in the $32-33B range. So still a significant increase, but only in the high-20s to near 30%.

jfern022 wrote:
To be fair, how many of those "departures lost" have been due to up gauging?

We all know Concourse B/C isn't as full as it was in it's heyday. I have a feeling that a lot lost was due to up gauging, which no matter the opinion is better for the customer.


It's definitely not objectively better for the consumer. Losing frequency or service entirely is a 100% downgrade for the customer that would booked those flights if they existed. And for the flights that do exist, many upgauges have no significant advantages to the customer. Sure, there are some winners in upgauging, but the net effect is very debatable.

But there is one stat that can't be argued with in the thread's context. Since 2008, DTW and MSP are two of the slower growing top-25 airports in the U.S in enplanements (4th and 9th-slowest by percentage). And MSP's growth is primarily due to non-DL carriers.

It's tough to argue that the tie-up was a success for the MSP and DTW hubs in light of the sector as a whole.


"Not better for the consumer." In 2008, the industry was in free fall, tens of billions of dollars in debt, loss making operations, economically unable to invest in new flight or ground equipment.

Today, with only a very slight increase in airfares, the industry is growing again. Higher load factors and newer airplanes have led to significant improvements in efficiency, and more is on the way. Investments are being made across the spectrum, service levels are increasing. Its been interesting to watch airlines put back in stuff, plus new stuff, that they took out from the late 90s to the early teens.

Simply put, the old model was unsustainable.

Edit: "Nearly flat headcount" Airlines have contracted out thousands of jobs. Not good for airline employees.
 
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klm617
Posts: 5112
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:05 pm

jfern022 wrote:
winginit wrote:
Fargo wrote:

So you are saying they had around 650 with NW and now with DL, they only have around 450?


To put some numbers behind his statement, DTW peaked in 2005 at an average of 573 daily departures (that's combining only NW and DL). As of 2018, DL averages 393 departures per day, so down 179 daily departures from the 2005 peak.


To be fair, how many of those "departures lost" have been due to up gauging?

We all know Concourse B/C isn't as full as it was in it's heyday. I have a feeling that a lot lost was due to up gauging, which no matter the opinion is better for the customer.


To be fare if that was the case ATL departures would have decreased also with all the up gauging there. DTW like MSP was trimmed to feed the expansion in other parts of the Delta network while ATL continued to grow.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5112
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:08 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mutu wrote:
The infographic posted above has some interesting interpretations comparing 2008 with 2018:

With a 10% increase in passengers carried, and a nearly flat headcount, newDelta has managed to nearly double revenue......NO wonder it is such a powerful business today!


I called that out earlier in the thread. It's not accurate. Actual revenue for both companies in 2008 was in the $32-33B range. So still a significant increase, but only in the high-20s to near 30%.

jfern022 wrote:
To be fair, how many of those "departures lost" have been due to up gauging?

We all know Concourse B/C isn't as full as it was in it's heyday. I have a feeling that a lot lost was due to up gauging, which no matter the opinion is better for the customer.


It's definitely not objectively better for the consumer. Losing frequency or service entirely is a 100% downgrade for the customer that would booked those flights if they existed. And for the flights that do exist, many upgauges have no significant advantages to the customer. Sure, there are some winners in upgauging, but the net effect is very debatable.

But there is one stat that can't be argued with in the thread's context. Since 2008, DTW and MSP are two of the slower growing top-25 airports in the U.S in enplanements (4th and 9th-slowest by percentage). And MSP's growth is primarily due to non-DL carriers.

It's tough to argue that the tie-up was a success for the MSP and DTW hubs in light of the sector as a whole.


And Detroit's growth has come though all the Spirit additions. Do you have a link to that data would love to take a look at it perhaps we can also link it to population growth in the top 25 markets.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Elementalism
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:40 pm

As a life long resident of MSP. I do not miss NWA much. I mean I do miss the red tails a little and feel MSP does not have as much of an international presence from the hub airline as it did under NWA. But I do not miss NWAs customer service. Gate agents, flight attendants all had their arrogant attitude like they were doing us a favor to allow us to buy a seat on their airplane. Delta has cleaned that up quite a bit. I fly Delta everywhere except Chicago for business now(Southwest). Prices are competitive, customer service is good, and the planes are comfortable. Couldn't say the same for NWA.

I do remember local politicians rallying to keep the HQ in MN instead of Atlanta. We all knew that wasnt going to happen with the taxes in MN. Delusional politicians.
 
n2dru
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:23 am

klm617 wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
winginit wrote:

To put some numbers behind his statement, DTW peaked in 2005 at an average of 573 daily departures (that's combining only NW and DL). As of 2018, DL averages 393 departures per day, so down 179 daily departures from the 2005 peak.


To be fair, how many of those "departures lost" have been due to up gauging?

We all know Concourse B/C isn't as full as it was in it's heyday. I have a feeling that a lot lost was due to up gauging, which no matter the opinion is better for the customer.


To be fare if that was the case ATL departures would have decreased also with all the up gauging there. DTW like MSP was trimmed to feed the expansion in other parts of the Delta network while ATL continued to grow.


Klm617 I have an honest question. If DL rerouted all ATL flows to DTW, how would you feel about that? If DL pumped over 900 flights thru DTW, would you find fault with that? I remember you mentioned standing in Concourse A at DTW and it being quiet and imagining the throngs of passengers at ATL scrambling to get to their connecting flights. Do you wish DTW was that busy? Honest question...hope you will provide some insight.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:59 am

Elementalism wrote:
As a life long resident of MSP. I do not miss NWA much. I mean I do miss the red tails a little and feel MSP does not have as much of an international presence from the hub airline as it did under NWA. But I do not miss NWAs customer service. Gate agents, flight attendants all had their arrogant attitude like they were doing us a favor to allow us to buy a seat on their airplane. Delta has cleaned that up quite a bit. I fly Delta everywhere except Chicago for business now(Southwest). Prices are competitive, customer service is good, and the planes are comfortable. Couldn't say the same for NWA.

I do remember local politicians rallying to keep the HQ in MN instead of Atlanta. We all knew that wasnt going to happen with the taxes in MN. Delusional politicians.


I have never understood what exactly NW fans were trying to hang on to.
 
questions
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Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:01 am

While it would have been more challenging, I was hoping DL would acquire UA.

JFK - build up to current state
IAD - turn into focus city
ATL - current state
CVG - draw down to current state
ORD - current state
DEN - absorb SLC
SLC - draw down
LAX - focus city
SFO - current state
SEA - never would have happened

Which brand would have survived, Delta or United?
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:19 am

questions wrote:
While it would have been more challenging, I was hoping DL would acquire UA.

JFK - build up to current state
IAD - turn into focus city
ATL - current state
CVG - draw down to current state
ORD - current state
DEN - absorb SLC
SLC - draw down
LAX - focus city
SFO - current state
SEA - never would have happened

Which brand would have survived, Delta or United?


Reputable media reports from 2007 indicate that UA was DL’s primary target, and the two were in advanced merger talks. DL ended its pursuit of UA after concluding that there was virtually no chance the DOJ would approve such merger. Most of a.net doesn’t recognize the size discrepency — AA, UA and DL were at least double the size of CO, NW and US. On paper, a combined DL-UA would’ve been larger than a combined AA-CO-NW-US.

Put simply, there was no way such merger would’ve been remotely realistic and thus it’s fruitless to think of “what if?”
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
deltatim
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:46 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:23 am

Welcome to the airline world, where promises are made, and fewer kept. I worked for Delta for more than twenty years, and during that time we had to endure pay cuts, a merger with Western, and an influx of Pan American people... nothing is ever guaranteed in this industry. After September 11th, I was laid off with no benefits, no severance, and only a small pension. Most NW people I know did quite well, and still are!
 
jplatts
Posts: 3717
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:36 am

klm617 wrote:
NO HUB CLOSURES; IMPROVED INTERNATIONAL ACCESS TO BENEFIT SMALL COMMUNITIES

https://ir.delta.com/news-and-events/ne ... fault.aspx


While DL did promise to keep all of the hubs of the combined DL-NW carrier 10 years ago, DL did end up completely dehubbing MEM and dropping a lot of nonstop routes out of CVG.

While MEM used to be the former Southern hub for NW prior to the DL-NW merger, DL only now serves its ATL, DTW, LAX, MSP, and LGA hubs nonstop from MEM. While I do not expect DL to ever bring back nonstop service to any destinations other than DL hubs or focus cities out of MEM, DL could bring back MEM-SLC, MEM-RDU, and MEM-BOS nonstop service in order to fill in the void left behind by the DL dehubbing at MEM.

Even though DL did discontinue many nonstop routes out of CVG subsequent to the DL-NW merger, DL still maintains a focus city at CVG and DL also still has nonstop service from CVG to some domestic destinations that aren't hubs or focus cities for DL.

Unlike DL and UA, AA has kept the PHX, PHL, DCA, and CLT hubs that were inherited through the AA-US merger, and AA has also kept the LAX, DFW, ORD, LGA, JFK, and MIA hubs that were AA hubs prior to the AA-US merger.
 
questions
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: 10 yrs since DELTA & NORTHWEST merge!

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:51 am

compensateme wrote:
Reputable media reports from 2007 indicate that UA was DL’s primary target, and the two were in advanced merger talks. DL ended its pursuit of UA after concluding that there was virtually no chance the DOJ would approve such merger. Most of a.net doesn’t recognize the size discrepency — AA, UA and DL were at least double the size of CO, NW and US. On paper, a combined DL-UA would’ve been larger than a combined AA-CO-NW-US.

Put simply, there was no way such merger would’ve been remotely realistic and thus it’s fruitless to think of “what if?”


Wow, that’s impressive... the size of AA-CO-NW-US. I didn’t know that. My sense is that a DL-UA merger would have eventually shrunk the combined airline — i.e., 1 + 1 would not equal 2 — regardless of what the DOJ would have wanted. I also believe the combined entity would have dumped Sky Team for Star Alliance.

*If* it had happened we probably would have seen a three way with AA-NW-US with CO being left out in the cold.

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