User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:46 am

Skywest continues its pursuit of EAS contracts, bidding for CRJ lights into two more small airports -- Massena and Ogdensburg. There are a few instances where Skywest's bid was not selected but most often it has been. These are the MSS and OGS bids:

Skywest
OGS $3.00m 2 daily CRJ, one each to ORD and IAD (all nonstop except the return from ORD stops in MSS)
MSS $3.00m 2 daliy CRJ, one each to ORD and IAD (all one-stop except the return from ORD is nonstop)

Cape
OGS $3.06m 3 daily Cessna to Albany-BOS, or $3.40m 3 daily Cessna nonstop to BOS
MSS $2.84m 3 daily Cessna to Albany-BOS, or $3.15m 3 daily Cessna nonstop to BOS

Boutique
OGS $3.23m 3 daily P12 to BOS, other higher-priced options to mixed hubs
MSS $3.23m 3 daily P12 to BOS, other higher-priced options to mixed hubs

Silver
OGS $3.58m 2 daily SF3 to-BOS
MSS $3.66m 2 daily SF3 to BOS

It will be interesting to see if the communities jump at the CRJ service or if they will go for the more frequent (and more expensive) small prop link to Boston.

Other than Alleigant's very limited OGS service (which is primarily about pulling the beach bound from across the boarder) I'm not coming up with anything bigger than a 15-seat Twin Otter in either city going back 40+ years.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1866
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:57 am

Where do you find this information? I'd love to take a look at other EAS markets and see similar bids.

I never realized the options that are available. Makes me wonder, as a resident, which I'd prefer.
With one non stop to ORD and one to IAD, I'm pretty sure you could connect easily just about anywhere depending on the timing, some 2nd and 3rd tier cities you might have a long connection wait. to BOS, you can fly non stop to just about anywhere. I think it would only bother people like me who hate flying east to connect out west to places like LAS, LAX and PHX.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:00 am

Ok, I'll bite with the obvious question:

How is EAS even eligible at both of these airports? They're 38 miles apart, not to mention OGS has the seasonal G4 service. MSS I could sort of understand... but even then, why not just have service at one?

I'm a big fan of the EAS program in general (I use it all the time in and out of DEN), but this is a classic example of the impracticality of it.
 
B595
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:52 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:08 am

knope2001 wrote:
Other than Alleigant's very limited OGS service (which is primarily about pulling the beach bound from across the boarder) I'm not coming up with anything bigger than a 15-seat Twin Otter in either city going back 40+ years.

Doesn't really alter your point, but Brockway Air used to fly B1900s into OGS, and I believe they were 19-seaters. I have a postcard of one on the ramp there.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:32 am

I believe Big Sky also flew the B1900 there during their brief experiment with BOS-based EAS flying.

Regardless, I expect the SkyWest bid will win. Bigger jets grow enplanements, even if there's an enroute stop and their bid is the lowest.

Enplanements in the WV cities OO took over with the dual IAD and ORD flights are through the roof (LWB and CKB).
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4365
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:53 am

As someone who just drove thru with cities I can say they are very close. Very easy drive, I understand one should get service but I don't see how both really need services.
 
CHOWahoo
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:16 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:55 am

Silver is back bidding for random EAS routes? I thought they were out of that game when they left IAD to concentrate on FL routes. Guess that hasn't gone too well for them.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:23 am

This was slightly talked about in the “Upstate New York” thread viewtopic.php?p=20827069#p20827069
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:41 am

Knope2001: Would Skywest ops be available for interline to UA (AA?) at ORD? Sold via their GDS' as codeshares?

Thanks for your illuminating work.
 
User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:59 am

B595 wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Other than Alleigant's very limited OGS service (which is primarily about pulling the beach bound from across the boarder) I'm not coming up with anything bigger than a 15-seat Twin Otter in either city going back 40+ years.

Doesn't really alter your point, but Brockway Air used to fly B1900s into OGS, and I believe they were 19-seaters. I have a postcard of one on the ramp there.


Duh on my part -- there were quite a few years after Air North twin otters but before Cape when it was 19-seaters.


joeblow10 wrote:
Ok, I'll bite with the obvious question:

How is EAS even eligible at both of these airports? They're 38 miles apart, not to mention OGS has the seasonal G4 service. MSS I could sort of understand... but even then, why not just have service at one?

I'm a big fan of the EAS program in general (I use it all the time in and out of DEN), but this is a classic example of the impracticality of it.


Simplified explanation (including stuff you might already know)
--EAS guaranteed minimal air service at any airport served by larger airlines as of the last day of regulation. If nobody will do it without subsidy then EAS money kicks in.
--All those airports will continue to get EAS year after year unless they fail to meet a qualification;
a.Fewer than 10 daily passengers
b. Too much per-passenger subsidy based on how close you are to a medium or large airport
.....(1) max subsidy $0 if within 70 miles of a medium or large airport (this distance has been increased over the years)
.....(2) max subsidy $200 if 71-210 miles to a medium or large airport
.....(3) max subsidy $1000 if 211+ miles to a medium or large airport

spinkid wrote:
Where do you find this information? I'd love to take a look at other EAS markets and see similar bids.


https://www.regulations.gov/advancedSearch

You'll probably want to narrow down the search by agency DOT. My own MO for this site is I search several times per week for all DOT items using a date range, and I tend to add one or two days on either end of what I really want. When you get your results then I suggest sorting by ID Number. That puts like items together. So not only will you (for example) find the EAS bids for a given market from all airlines sorted together, but it helps you to sort out big chunks of stuff you don't want. These days there are often dozen (or hundreds) of comments posted on this site on the topic of service / comfort animals on planes -- their ID is 2018-0124. So by sorting it's easier to skip that big block of comments and more easily see anything of interest to me.

One other note on EAS dockets in particular: it usually works this way:
1. A few months prior to the current EAS contract expiration an item will be posted requesting proposals-
2. Several weeks later after the bid deadline the DoT will post all bids received All will be posted on one day.
3. There may be some chatter during this timeframe where you could run into a letters of support of a particular bid posted, or the endorsement of the community of a bid, etc. These are somewhat more scattered and sometimes there's none of this.
4. Several week later there will be a posting of who the big was awarded to.
 
User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Knope2001: Would Skywest ops be available for interline to UA (AA?) at ORD? Sold via their GDS' as codeshares?

Thanks for your illuminating work.


These would be operated as UA* to both ORD and IAD.

I don't know the details but even though these Skywest EAS route are in a broad sense at-risk for Skywest, all the expansion is United. It's been years since any of their new EAS bidding has been for DL* or AA* service. Houghton MI (which has 2x/day to ORD as UA) has asked for their service to become DL* to DTW/MSP but it continues to be UA*.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:15 pm

If Silver is year round, that means it will be the first time one of their scheduled services see winter weather. That would be interesting to see.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:10 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
Ok, I'll bite with the obvious question:

How is EAS even eligible at both of these airports? They're 38 miles apart, not to mention OGS has the seasonal G4 service. MSS I could sort of understand... but even then, why not just have service at one?

I'm a big fan of the EAS program in general (I use it all the time in and out of DEN), but this is a classic example of the impracticality of it.


I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that these two cities are susceptible to heavy lake effect snows in the winter which would make driving between the two difficult? Snow squalls are no joke.
 
MO11
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:10 pm

evank516 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Ok, I'll bite with the obvious question:

How is EAS even eligible at both of these airports? They're 38 miles apart, not to mention OGS has the seasonal G4 service. MSS I could sort of understand... but even then, why not just have service at one?

I'm a big fan of the EAS program in general (I use it all the time in and out of DEN), but this is a classic example of the impracticality of it.


I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that these two cities are susceptible to heavy lake effect snows in the winter which would make driving between the two difficult? Snow squalls are no joke.


Both communities were designated as EAS by virtue of the fact that they were served by Allegheny (albeit Allegheny Commuter) when deregulation began. As Congress tightens the purse strings on EAS funding, the DOT amends the qualifications (e.g. distance from hub, number of passengers, subsidy cap) for communities to stay in the EAS program. But as remote as OGS and MSS are, both maintain their EAS qualifications. DOT can't go to one community and tell them that funding is being shut off without first changing the rules. Remember that UCA and GFL were shut off since they were too close to a medium hub.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3966
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:47 pm

Any EAS route that Skywest bids with jets they are going to win. These communities will never vote props over jets especially jets branded as united with seamless connections.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:58 pm

It’s weird that they will serve both Chicago and Washington DC, I wish they serve one or the other and make it 2x daily .

In places like Ogdensburg or Massena where it snows a lot, only 1x daily per destination could be a problem when flights get cancelled.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:03 pm

Discussions like these often lead someone to post something like "there should be a single airport in the middle to serve both". A few issues with those sort of ideas:

1 Building a new mid-city airport (here, or between similar small airports) would cost a boatload of money.

2 .Cities tend to not want to give up the convenience of their own airport.

3. The traffic at a new combined airport like this wouldn't amount to a game-changing volume.

4. The farther you make people drive to a regional airport, the more likely they'll keep right on driving to a comparably large airport with more flights and better fares. If they were to close MSS in favor of building OGS as the region's airport (for example) there's a good chance many of the Massena people would keep on driving down to Syracuse.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2773
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:06 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Any EAS route that Skywest bids with jets they are going to win. These communities will never vote props over jets especially jets branded as united with seamless connections.


Unless DOT doesn't go with their choice because they cost more. That is what happened at DEC. Community picked SkyWest and DOT gave it to Cape because they were cheaper.
UIN (Quincy, IL) originally picked Boutique but then later changed their mind to SkyWest last minute. Not that I blame them but it was odd how it went down.
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:13 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Any EAS route that Skywest bids with jets they are going to win. These communities will never vote props over jets especially jets branded as united with seamless connections.


Unless they cost more. That is what happened at DEC. Community picked SkyWest and DOT gave it to Cape because they were cheaper.
UIN (Quincy, IL) originally picked Boutique but then later changed their mind to SkyWest last minute. Not that I blame them but it was odd how it went down.


That was a quicky situation as there was a "mini" govt. shutdown right around the time Skywest was going to file a petition so they dropped that effort due to these unusual circumstances. Of course no guarantee they would have won the petition anyway!
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5461
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:30 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
If Silver is year round, that means it will be the first time one of their scheduled services see winter weather. That would be interesting to see.


Silver has had year-round service in the past at airports in Ohio/Pennsylvania/West Virginia....all of which have winter weather.


I'll agree with others that this EAS service seems wasteful, but I think SkyWest's bid should be a shoe-in. Splitting across the two hubs has some advantages, though I wonder how much UA wants to congest ORD with EAS regional jet flights.
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1711
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:34 pm

knope2001 wrote:
I don't know the details but even though these Skywest EAS route are in a broad sense at-risk for Skywest, all the expansion is United. It's been years since any of their new EAS bidding has been for DL* or AA* service. Houghton MI (which has 2x/day to ORD as UA) has asked for their service to become DL* to DTW/MSP but it continues to be UA*.


I'm guessing that SkyWest's contract with UA allows them to freely pursue at-risk/pro-rate flying under the UAX banner, where their contracts with AA and DL may be more restrictive.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
oosnowrat
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:40 pm

FlyPNS1 wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

I'll agree with others that this EAS service seems wasteful, but I think SkyWest's bid should be a shoe-in. Splitting across the two hubs has some advantages, though I wonder how much UA wants to congest ORD with EAS regional jet flights.


OO would not make the application if UA had not already given its blessing.
 
KCaviator
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:55 pm

Honestly, SkyWest is what these EAS communities need. Reliable service and codeshare one-stop connections worldwide should always win over turboprop or piston service to, say, Albany, NY. The numbers don't lie either; passenger numbers skyrocket when SkyWest enters a market. Just look at UIN, SLN, CGI, CNY, etc, etc, etc.
 
dc10co
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:15 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

I'll agree with others that this EAS service seems wasteful, but I think SkyWest's bid should be a shoe-in. Splitting across the two hubs has some advantages, though I wonder how much UA wants to congest ORD with EAS regional jet flights.


OO would not make the application if UA had not already given its blessing.

UA doesn’t have to give it’s blessing. These flights are operated completely at risk by SkyWest and are not covered by the CPA agreement. OO pays all the costs associated with the flights and assumes all profit or loss responsibility, the only part UA plays in the transaction is allowing the flights to be sold on their code and booked in their GDS (which OO pays UA for the privilege of doing). OO did tons of this kind of flying on the west coast with the Brasilias until they were retired
Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:52 pm

The flag marketing carrier may not need to give its nod to each individual bid, but it does have to give permission to OO to bid services under their flag. OO has no means to sell or market flights on their own, so they have at-risk agreements with UA/DL which outlines what they (OO) can and can't do. So, I'm probably 99% certain that the head of network planning at UA is quite aware of what OO is bidding on, and how it impacts the UA system/network/operations, etc.
xx
 
User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:40 pm

Something interesting (and perhaps somewhat telling) regarding United’s involvement is that when it came time to bid RJ’s flying for Presque Isle the bid was from United for UA* RJ service to Newark. And it’s been Commutair which has been flying it, not Skywest (who doesn’t fly UA* at EWR) nor Skywest-subsidiary ExpressJet (who does). That it was United who bid for and won PQI it begs the question if that particular route is United’s risk, not the regional carrier risk. And it suggests that United is attracted to this segment beyond simply being a disinterested bystander to Skywest’s efforts.

The DoT tends to honor community preference for carrier as long as the bid is cheapest or only marginally more expensive than the lowest. They will also throw out of consideration cheaper bids which don’t meet requirements if the community chooses not to waive the requirement – the most common one is EAS requires twin-engine aircraft unless the community waives the requirement for the bid. If both MSS and OGS agree on Skywest they are virtually certain to get the award.

Although I don’t wish ill to carriers like Cape and Boutique I’m very glad to see RJ’s continue to push into more EAS markets. A lot of these remote places don’t really need the frequency which comes with a 9-seat prop; they need reliable, code-share branded service to a hub on a cabin-class regional aircraft. So many EAS markets have seen the vast majority of their traffic leak to distant, larger airports, and as smaller aircraft moved in it only led to further leakage. There are some EAS airports which would legitimately struggle to generate more than 15 people per day even if Southwest brought 737’s in. And carriers like Boutique and Cape are great for them. But quite a few airports getting 3-5 nine-seat props would generate enough traffic to bring in a couple daily RJ’s, often with lower total costs (and often much lower per-passenger costs) to the EAS program than the little props needed. And this seems to be the only possibility for some of these carriers to either get off EAS totally (like MHK, SUX and COU have) or survive should EAS die. OGS and MSS may never be strong enough to drop EAS subsidy, but maybe someday if EAS dies the subsidy needed will be low enough that state and local funds can be cobbled together to keep service.
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:53 pm

At least Boutique and Cape offer interline and codeshare, both. A recent situation in Silver City whereby Boutique was dropped and handed to an unknown -Advantage Air - with zero connectivity, bowing to the communities whims of replacement desire, possibly unwarranted due to some operational issues over the past winter. Its starting to pit these operators against each other in unfair ways. JST won Boutique recently for same reason they lost SVC. Southern was blamed for operational instability. UA/OO partnership does bring increased ridership and more stability than some of these Part 135 operators do , but they wont bid on all the markets , I am certain. The Air Choice One "success" in the Midwest puzzles me. I would think those communities would push for better connectivity at STL or ORD.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 784
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:00 pm

My cousin lives in Ogdensburg-I've been there many times.

Two CRJ 200's per day is huge overkill but what the heck, it's only a small part of the massive annual government debt so who cares right?

I hope our grandchildren don't hate us for this type of thing when they get stuck with this bill (and much else).
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:57 pm

Cape Air’s Cessna 402 are so uncomfortable and loud. Maybe when they introduce their new Tecnam P2012 I’d be more likely to fly them again.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
sbaflyer
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:30 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Something interesting (and perhaps somewhat telling) regarding United’s involvement is that when it came time to bid RJ’s flying for Presque Isle the bid was from United for UA* RJ service to Newark. And it’s been Commutair which has been flying it, not Skywest (who doesn’t fly UA* at EWR) nor Skywest-subsidiary ExpressJet (who does). That it was United who bid for and won PQI it begs the question if that particular route is United’s risk, not the regional carrier risk. And it suggests that United is attracted to this segment beyond simply being a disinterested bystander to Skywest’s efforts.


PQI was interesting because UA themselves bid on the service to Newark and Skywest also bid for service to IAD. The community preferred UA to EWR, but I've heard it's not as reliable as they hoped due to EWR weather delays. With UA moving a lot of short-haul to IAD, I wonder if they'll consider moving service to IAD at some point - would that be allowed under EAS?
 
User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:46 pm

sbaflyer wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Something interesting (and perhaps somewhat telling) regarding United’s involvement is that when it came time to bid RJ’s flying for Presque Isle the bid was from United for UA* RJ service to Newark. And it’s been Commutair which has been flying it, not Skywest (who doesn’t fly UA* at EWR) nor Skywest-subsidiary ExpressJet (who does). That it was United who bid for and won PQI it begs the question if that particular route is United’s risk, not the regional carrier risk. And it suggests that United is attracted to this segment beyond simply being a disinterested bystander to Skywest’s efforts.


PQI was interesting because UA themselves bid on the service to Newark and Skywest also bid for service to IAD. The community preferred UA to EWR, but I've heard it's not as reliable as they hoped due to EWR weather delays. With UA moving a lot of short-haul to IAD, I wonder if they'll consider moving service to IAD at some point - would that be allowed under EAS?


The community would have to approve a move from EWR to IAD, but they wouldn't be able to get any more money for it. Mid-contract changes normally have to be no additional cost. As for PQI in particular on wonders how much of their historical traffic has been local to BOS, and what portion of that traffic deal with PQI-EWR-BOS or simply doesn't fly. I recall a number of years back when some tiny Montana EAS airports switched from Billings flights to 1-stop Denver flights traffic tanked because a lot of their customers were simply flying to from/the big city (Billings) for business, medical or education. Hopefully PQI doesn't have a similar situation going on.
 
kalvado
Posts: 1809
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:54 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
My cousin lives in Ogdensburg-I've been there many times.

Two CRJ 200's per day is huge overkill but what the heck, it's only a small part of the massive annual government debt so who cares right?

I hope our grandchildren don't hate us for this type of thing when they get stuck with this bill (and much else).

As far as I remember, Allegiant started Ogdenburg to capture Ottawatraffic going to Florida vacations. Maybe this is the same tune?
 
desertjets
Posts: 7693
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:30 pm

If it weren't for that pesky international border both YOW and YUL would be very usable airports for both communities. Otherwise it is a long and not so great drive to get to SYR for these places. And winters can really make traveling suck up there.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
mwmav8r01
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:42 pm

EAS to cities like these just seem like wasteful spending to me.
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1711
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:26 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Something interesting (and perhaps somewhat telling) regarding United’s involvement is that when it came time to bid RJ’s flying for Presque Isle the bid was from United for UA* RJ service to Newark. And it’s been Commutair which has been flying it, not Skywest (who doesn’t fly UA* at EWR) nor Skywest-subsidiary ExpressJet (who does). That it was United who bid for and won PQI it begs the question if that particular route is United’s risk, not the regional carrier risk. And it suggests that United is attracted to this segment beyond simply being a disinterested bystander to Skywest’s efforts.


Several years ago, when a bunch of the northern Michigan cities went up for EAS renewal, Delta submitted a bid (rather than Mesaba or Pinnacle or any of the other regional operators), and the reason they cited for submitting a bid directly was so that they could have the same scheduling flexibility on that route that they do on other regional routes as far as choosing which operator and which aircraft to send as opposed to being tied to specific regional operator because they hold the contract.

I forget if Delta won those contracts or not.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2137
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:55 pm

B595 wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
Other than Alleigant's very limited OGS service (which is primarily about pulling the beach bound from across the boarder) I'm not coming up with anything bigger than a 15-seat Twin Otter in either city going back 40+ years.

Doesn't really alter your point, but Brockway Air used to fly B1900s into OGS, and I believe they were 19-seaters. I have a postcard of one on the ramp there.


Also, weren’t Commutair B1900s a regular sight at both airports back in the day when they were based at Plattsburgh?

Both of these EAS towns have historically pulled in traffic from the Canadian side too.

desertjets wrote:
If it weren't for that pesky international border both YOW and YUL would be very usable airports for both communities. Otherwise it is a long and not so great drive to get to SYR for these places. And winters can really make traveling suck up there.


Border or not, you’ll see New York plates parked at YOW all the time and I’d imagine it’s the same at YUL.

For anyone from the “North Country“ wanting to fly to a Canadian destination or the likes of LHR, the 60-90 minute drive to YOW is by far the easiest option.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:56 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Cape Air’s Cessna 402 are so uncomfortable and loud. Maybe when they introduce their new Tecnam P2012 I’d be more likely to fly them again.

For short hops between BOS, the Cape, ACK and MVY I find them pretty manageable. They also serve a distinct purpose for airports like RUT, a bit further from BOS but would not be able to sustain any service without 9K and their 402s. BOS-OGS is much further...not sure how great the 402 would be on that route from a passenger comfort perspective.
 
oosnowrat
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:20 am

dc10co wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:


OO would not make the application if UA had not already given its blessing.

UA doesn’t have to give it’s blessing. These flights are operated completely at risk by SkyWest and are not covered by the CPA agreement. OO pays all the costs associated with the flights and assumes all profit or loss responsibility, the only part UA plays in the transaction is allowing the flights to be sold on their code and booked in their GDS (which OO pays UA for the privilege of doing). OO did tons of this kind of flying on the west coast with the Brasilias until they were retired


I'm fully aware how the process works, and OO does indeed need the major partner's blessing.
 
pgh234
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:48 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:34 am

knope2001 wrote:

Other than Alleigant's very limited OGS service (which is primarily about pulling the beach bound from across the boarder) I'm not coming up with anything bigger than a 15-seat Twin Otter in either city going back 40+ years.


There was definitely service to PIT from both cities during the US Hub days of the 90's on B1900's.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:46 am

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
It’s weird that they will serve both Chicago and Washington DC, I wish they serve one or the other and make it 2x daily .

In places like Ogdensburg or Massena where it snows a lot, only 1x daily per destination could be a problem when flights get cancelled.

Not really..
UA, is on a mission to build up IAD again, space at EWR is at a premium now, and adding ORD gets it back to the CRJ base, with cross-country connections, and a bit of OD.
 
Chuska
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:44 am

Sounds like SkyWest is focusing on connecting the two EAS cities to two hubs with a ORD-OGS-MSS-IAD routing, like the DEN-HYS-SLN-ORD route they currently do. I could see OO bidding on PIR and ATY and doing a DEN-PIR-ATY-ORD route versus the current provider doing DEN-PIR-ATY twice per day with tag-on segment (PIR-ATY) that's only carrying thru passengers.
 
User avatar
knope2001
Topic Author
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm

Chuska wrote:
Sounds like SkyWest is focusing on connecting the two EAS cities to two hubs with a ORD-OGS-MSS-IAD routing, like the DEN-HYS-SLN-ORD route they currently do. I could see OO bidding on PIR and ATY and doing a DEN-PIR-ATY-ORD route versus the current provider doing DEN-PIR-ATY twice per day with tag-on segment (PIR-ATY) that's only carrying thru passengers.


For whatever reason when the PIR/ATY contract came up for bids Skywest did not submit one. The route has done great for ADI (now California Pacific).

I'd like to see Skywest do a similar bridge between DEN and ORD over Mason City and Fort Dodge to what they've done at Hays and Salina, only the 2x would be ORD. We'll see if they bid when it comes up next .
 
nomorerjs
Posts: 876
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:13 pm

Skywest seems to be doing well on these EAS routes to DEN, IAD, and ORD.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3095
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:37 pm

nomorerjs wrote:
Skywest seems to be doing well on these EAS routes to DEN, IAD, and ORD.


If they can keep staffing it (and only if), it’s an easy way to print money using basically paid for airplanes.
From my cold, dead hands
 
Chuska
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:53 pm

Yes, I'd like to see SkyWest do DEN-FOD-MCW-ORD too. Ozark actually used DC-9's at both cities in the early 1980's. Can't believe anyone would travel on Caravans for two hour flights like FOD-STL or MCW-ORD.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:03 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Any EAS route that Skywest bids with jets they are going to win. These communities will never vote props over jets especially jets branded as united with seamless connections.

Decatur, IL.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:33 pm

SkyWest brought a CRJ200 into Massena to show off. People from Boutique and Cape Air also went to Massena to pitch to the town. Silver not showing up basically ruins any chance they had of getting a recommendation from the town. None of the airlines made a pitch in Ogdensburg which I think is odd.

http://northcountrynow.com/news/skywest ... burlington

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/news ... t-20181127
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:49 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
SkyWest brought a CRJ200 into Massena to show off. People from Boutique and Cape Air also went to Massena to pitch to the town. Silver not showing up basically ruins any chance they had of getting a recommendation from the town. None of the airlines made a pitch in Ogdensburg which I think is odd.

http://northcountrynow.com/news/skywest ... burlington

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/news ... t-20181127



Ogdensburg is already on board with UA option. Massena is the hard sell and stubbonly seems resisant. I think Boutique promises to set up a small maintenance facility in a hangar at the airport. UA doesn't happen without both on board. DOT made award it to UA anyway
 
drdisque
Posts: 1057
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:55 pm

Massena is worried that since OGS is more central and has existing G4 service, that if they have the same service as OGS, that they will get ignored or go over $200/enplanement due to lack of traffic. That's why they are open to the possibility of keeping BOS service, which OGS, ART, and PBG all would now lack, despite historically having. The theory is that if MSS sticks with BOS service that they could have catchment of the entire North Country's demand to BOS. A quote from a city councilman was basically "We don't want to compete with Ogdensburg".
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Skywest pursues Massena and Ogdensburg EAS

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:00 pm

True, I still feel like Silver should have made a pitch to the towns. They would have BOS service, plus it would avoid the 1.5hr trip on a Cessna 402 (soon to be P2012) . But if SkyWest does end up at OGS, MSS it will leave Saranac Lake the only EAS city in NY without service from at least one of the big 3
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos