alan3
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Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:15 pm

If LHR slots are so expensive and hard to come by, why don't more airlines in particular the US3 add LGW, LTN or STN in order to get more frames to London in particular for Summer?

I realize LGW has fewer connection opportunities but for people staying in London the Gatwick Express can get you into central London almost as quick as from Heathrow, so wouldn't business travellers to London find it just as useful?

It's not as if LGW is entirely low-cost or charter....Emirates, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, China Eastern, Qatar and Turkish all fly to LGW in addition to LHR (and El Al flies to Luton and Emirates to Stansted).

Why does adding LGW work for them but not for US airlines?

I know AC tried adding LGW but pulled out ( but they were using Rouge to LGW and mainline to LHR ).
 
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Geminijets101
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:17 pm

Didn’t Continental fly to LGW?
Cíao
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London air

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:28 pm

Its Yield , yield , and yield.

There is already way too much capacity down the back of the bus much of year the so to speak,(leads to rather competitive fare offerings especially via the consolidators) so no need to chase or indeed move much of the marginal traffic elsewhere - this is a significant reason services tend to fail via Stansted and Gatwick in short order.
Oh and those in the front two cabins are either traveling on other peoples money or open to the usual bribes ( awards) that Heathrow simple remains dominant period stop.


This is a situation unlikely to change any time soon.

Your point re connections well self connects across Europe is factually wrong though . Both Gatwick and Stansted have flights to many more regional cities than Heathrow today.
 
Rudenko
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:29 pm

Geminijets101 wrote:
Didn’t Continental fly to LGW?

Continental, Delta, American, TWA, USair, ( US Airways) Northwest etc etc all served LGW.
But when they were told LHRs runways were paved with gold ( open skies) they relocated up the road apart from TWA who were long gone.
Also Pan Am served LGWafter selling LHR slots to UAL.

Regards Rudenko
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London air

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:40 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Oh and those in the front two cabins are either traveling on other peoples money or open to the usual bribes ( awards) that Heathrow simple remains dominant period stop.


I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London air

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:50 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.


And that might be exactly the problem, they don't want them to be significantly cheaper as this would eat into their yields. A cheap flight to Gatwick would compete with the more expensive flight to Heathrow, causing the Heathrow flight to make less money as well.

On top of that, I doubt if Gatwick would be that much cheaper than Heathrow. A little, but not significantly.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:55 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Oh and those in the front two cabins are either traveling on other peoples money or open to the usual bribes ( awards) that Heathrow simple remains dominant period stop.


I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.


Regrettably that’s not the business model employed by the US3 and European partners.

Outside of Heathrow a point where they regularly need to price dump the back of the bus, the costs of the front cabins must be maintained for the Yield potential else they fail to meet the commercial target levels. This is further emphasised by typically employing either the 752 or 763 with considered inferior hard product.

Hence the premiums still get on a shuttle or the Heathrow Express anyway.
 
Beatyair
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:01 pm

Because Heathrow is the crown jewel. It is the airport you think ok when you think London.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:11 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Oh and those in the front two cabins are either traveling on other peoples money or open to the usual bribes ( awards) that Heathrow simple remains dominant period stop.


I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.


Regrettably that’s not the business model employed by the US3 and European partners.

Outside of Heathrow a point where they regularly need to price dump the back of the bus, the costs of the front cabins must be maintained for the Yield potential else they fail to meet the commercial target levels. This is further emphasised by typically employing either the 752 or 763 with considered inferior hard product.

Hence the premiums still get on a shuttle or the Heathrow Express anyway.


I am wondering what the impact is of Norwegian ex-LGW regarding Premium Economy fares.
 
kavok
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:12 pm

And it is also important to note that while LHR slots are limited and expensive... they are not ‘that’ sparse. Point being, there really aren’t that many routes that AA/UA/DL would say: “Well we’d fly to XXX-LHR if we had another slot, but since we don’t, we instead have to fly lucrative route XXX-LGW”. Pretty much every lucrative route one of the US3 would want to operate to London can be done within the limited slots they have now.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:19 pm

Didn’t Continental fly to LGW?


I flew there in a brand spanking new CO 777 back in the day, 2001, I think, then back in a 757 to CLE. Gatwick was much more convenient than Heathrow for this weary traveler.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:21 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.


Regrettably that’s not the business model employed by the US3 and European partners.

Outside of Heathrow a point where they regularly need to price dump the back of the bus, the costs of the front cabins must be maintained for the Yield potential else they fail to meet the commercial target levels. This is further emphasised by typically employing either the 752 or 763 with considered inferior hard product.

Hence the premiums still get on a shuttle or the Heathrow Express anyway.


I am wondering what the impact is of Norwegian ex-LGW regarding Premium Economy fares.


Very limited in reality; BA are on mission to destroy them one route at a time from Gatwick where they perceive any threat .
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:22 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Oh and those in the front two cabins are either traveling on other peoples money or open to the usual bribes ( awards) that Heathrow simple remains dominant period stop.


I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.


Regrettably that’s not the business model employed by the US3 and European partners.

Outside of Heathrow a point where they regularly need to price dump the back of the bus, the costs of the front cabins must be maintained for the Yield potential else they fail to meet the commercial target levels. This is further emphasised by typically employing either the 752 or 763 with considered inferior hard product.

Hence the premiums still get on a shuttle or the Heathrow Express anyway.


B6 could really mess with this model with a true J seat rather than Norwegian's premium economy offering.
 
OMAAbound
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:31 pm

The question i ask is, why?

Non of the US3 seem interested in adding capacity to London. So that begs the question of, why?

Also, even if they wanted to add capacity, they’d find a way of shoehorning there way into LHR, as that’s the golden goose.

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LH658
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:35 pm

I flew IAH - LGW many times.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?
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rutankrd
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:50 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?


Chicago and JFK both served at differing times

The JFK service was a diliberate move to destroy a few Business only offerings . Successfully done and subsequently withdrawn.
 
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STT757
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:58 pm

Geminijets101 wrote:
Didn’t Continental fly to LGW?


Yes, CO flew to Gatwick from:

CLE, DEN, IAH, MIA and EWR

CO also flew EWR-Stansted.
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iahcsr
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:00 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?

CO did. It had just started EWRSTN when 9/11 happened. It ended the route shortly after. There’s no way now to know how well it would have performed if that event didn’t take place.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:08 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

I am sure that if business class fares to LGW were significantly cheaper than to LHR, people would fly to LGW.


Regrettably that’s not the business model employed by the US3 and European partners.

Outside of Heathrow a point where they regularly need to price dump the back of the bus, the costs of the front cabins must be maintained for the Yield potential else they fail to meet the commercial target levels. This is further emphasised by typically employing either the 752 or 763 with considered inferior hard product.

Hence the premiums still get on a shuttle or the Heathrow Express anyway.


B6 could really mess with this model with a true J seat rather than Norwegian's premium economy offering.


But B6 would also need to go with a wide-body plane as well to properly utilize LGW slots. It would be a waste flying a narrow-body plane from the USA to Gatwick at least from JFK. They could pull off a J-W-Y+-Y model though, commanding significant yields and brand recognition at the US point of sale to mess with LGW, and I suspect they could have a few other destinations with wide-bodies too that could all target DY/DI/DU/D8.

While it's not the topic of the OP, one can also say the same thing about Paris---why does no US carrier fly to ORY, which is where the connection to the Air France domestic network (and overseas departments) is primarily? (The only link from the USA to Orly is Air France's JFK-ORY flight, which in winter is sub-daily.)
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:08 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?


Yep, to drive Maxjet out of business, once Maxjet went under they pulled out of the route.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:30 pm

alan3 wrote:
If LHR slots are so expensive and hard to come by, why don't more airlines in particular the US3 add LGW, LTN or STN in order to get more frames to London in particular for Summer?

I realize LGW has fewer connection opportunities but for people staying in London the Gatwick Express can get you into central London almost as quick as from Heathrow, so wouldn't business travellers to London find it just as useful?

It's not as if LGW is entirely low-cost or charter....Emirates, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, China Eastern, Qatar and Turkish all fly to LGW in addition to LHR (and El Al flies to Luton and Emirates to Stansted).

Why does adding LGW work for them but not for US airlines?

I know AC tried adding LGW but pulled out ( but they were using Rouge to LGW and mainline to LHR ).


Because the US 3 are focusing on getting Premium travelers and their operating cost are set for that crowd. They see LHR as the place to fly into, while they see Gatters and the other two as lower end. Remember Emirates, Turkish do not just focus on high end travelers. They carry lots of cheap fares. The Chinese carriers are dumping prices to fill planes and are focusing on travels looking for the cheapest price.
 
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:33 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
rutankrd wrote:

Regrettably that’s not the business model employed by the US3 and European partners.

Outside of Heathrow a point where they regularly need to price dump the back of the bus, the costs of the front cabins must be maintained for the Yield potential else they fail to meet the commercial target levels. This is further emphasised by typically employing either the 752 or 763 with considered inferior hard product.

Hence the premiums still get on a shuttle or the Heathrow Express anyway.


B6 could really mess with this model with a true J seat rather than Norwegian's premium economy offering.


But B6 would also need to go with a wide-body plane as well to properly utilize LGW slots. It would be a waste flying a narrow-body plane from the USA to Gatwick at least from JFK. They could pull off a J-W-Y+-Y model though, commanding significant yields and brand recognition at the US point of sale to mess with LGW, and I suspect they could have a few other destinations with wide-bodies too that could all target DY/DI/DU/D8.

While it's not the topic of the OP, one can also say the same thing about Paris---why does no US carrier fly to ORY, which is where the connection to the Air France domestic network (and overseas departments) is primarily? (The only link from the USA to Orly is Air France's JFK-ORY flight, which in winter is sub-daily.)


US carriers fly into CDG because the French government forced them to the airport. They are not allowed US-ORY services.
 
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:37 pm

alan3 wrote:
If LHR slots are so expensive and hard to come by, why don't more airlines in particular the US3 add LGW, LTN or STN in order to get more frames to London in particular for Summer?

I realize LGW has fewer connection opportunities but for people staying in London the Gatwick Express can get you into central London almost as quick as from Heathrow, so wouldn't business travellers to London find it just as useful?

It's not as if LGW is entirely low-cost or charter....Emirates, Cathay Pacific, China Airlines, China Eastern, Qatar and Turkish all fly to LGW in addition to LHR (and El Al flies to Luton and Emirates to Stansted).

Why does adding LGW work for them but not for US airlines?

I know AC tried adding LGW but pulled out ( but they were using Rouge to LGW and mainline to LHR ).


LGW (and STN for that matter) works more as a point to point airport, where as the US majors try to use their European gateway cities as connecting hubs. Airlines coming from the east, like those you listed, don't really use London as a connecting hub, so LGW (or STN) is fine for them. El Al makes LTN work because a large part of London's Jewish community is clustered near together and it so happens LTN is well placed.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:38 pm

rbavfan wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:

B6 could really mess with this model with a true J seat rather than Norwegian's premium economy offering.


But B6 would also need to go with a wide-body plane as well to properly utilize LGW slots. It would be a waste flying a narrow-body plane from the USA to Gatwick at least from JFK. They could pull off a J-W-Y+-Y model though, commanding significant yields and brand recognition at the US point of sale to mess with LGW, and I suspect they could have a few other destinations with wide-bodies too that could all target DY/DI/DU/D8.

While it's not the topic of the OP, one can also say the same thing about Paris---why does no US carrier fly to ORY, which is where the connection to the Air France domestic network (and overseas departments) is primarily? (The only link from the USA to Orly is Air France's JFK-ORY flight, which in winter is sub-daily.)


US carriers fly into CDG because the French government forced them to the airport. They are not allowed US-ORY services.


Not true in the US- EU openskys treaty US carriers can fly into Orly any time they want . That said the market differential of Paris airports is rather similar to London in many ways
 
Galwayman
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:41 pm

US3 Are lazy lazy lazy and entitled . Don’t really want to fly anywhere, just want to rely on code shares and JVs and FF schemes ...
 
cedarjet
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:42 pm

I am surprised Gatwick doesn’t work for the US3, I live in its catchment area and the money here is unbelievable. As you get closer to LGW itself if anything that becomes even more true. Funny to think everyone in all the mansions of Surrey Sussex and Brighton all schlepping to Heathrow. At least their kids are all flying to NY LA and Thai beaches on Norwegian...!
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metaldirtnskin
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:43 pm

Rudenko wrote:
Geminijets101 wrote:
Didn’t Continental fly to LGW?

Continental, Delta, American, TWA, USair, ( US Airways) Northwest etc etc all served LGW.


I seem to recall Piedmont starting up TATL operations in the mid-to-late 1980s, serving CLT-LGW with the 767. This of course was shortly before they merged into USAir.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:46 pm

cedarjet wrote:
I am surprised Gatwick doesn’t work for the US3, I live in its catchment area and the money here is unbelievable. As you get closer to LGW itself if anything that becomes even more true. Funny to think everyone in all the mansions of Surrey Sussex and Brighton all schlepping to Heathrow. At least their kids are all flying to NY LA and Thai beaches on Norwegian...!


As others have said, it could work for B6, but B6 would need wide-bodies to make it work. This is where a 10-plane 12-year lease (with option to buy after 8 years) could work for B6 (given that B6 does have a model of long-term ownership)...the question is finding delivery slots for the B789, which would be the ideal aircraft, since there would be also a desire to serve TLV as well.
 
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:10 pm

Galwayman wrote:
US3 Are lazy lazy lazy and entitled . Don’t really want to fly anywhere, just want to rely on code shares and JVs and FF schemes ...

Trying to replicate US domestic profitability on international routes. Don't want to upset JV arrangements, or allow customers of non-legacy carriers (or upstarts) to make easier or cheaper connections to / from the USA. Hire professionals to lobby against proposed improvements to any London airport - status quo is great for legacy business model.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:12 pm

Also worth remembering JVs. Both AA and DL fly to LGW, it's just on BA and VS metal respectively.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:31 pm

I guess it's great the US3 are so addicted to LHR. Seems like an opportunity for LHR management to crank fees into the stratosphere...
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:44 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I guess it's great the US3 are so addicted to LHR. Seems like an opportunity for LHR management to crank fees into the stratosphere...


Can’t - the fees are regulated by the CAA using some complex algebra.

HAL have had fees and charges pegged on quite a number occasions in recent times
 
crescent
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:10 pm

US carriers except AA all flew to LGW when LHR was strictly slot-controlled. They all went to LHR when it opened up and haven't gone back to LGW since, and a large reason besides yields is the lack of alliance connections at LGW.
 
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chepos
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:41 pm

crescent wrote:
US carriers except AA all flew to LGW when LHR was strictly slot-controlled. They all went to LHR when it opened up and haven't gone back to LGW since, and a large reason besides yields is the lack of alliance connections at LGW.
mm

AA flew to LGW, due to Bermuda 2 not all AA markets into London could use Heathrow (DFW for example). PM UA was the US major that did not fly LGW on a scheduled basis.
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jfk777
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:53 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?


AA will never admit it but they flew from JFK to Stansted to out Max jet out of business and they and 9/11 did bankrupt them. Max jet also expanded to all kinds of places like LAX and few other cities, they flew very old 767's.
 
Rudenko
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:54 pm

metaldirtnskin wrote:
Rudenko wrote:
Geminijets101 wrote:
Didn’t Continental fly to LGW?

Continental, Delta, American, TWA, USair, ( US Airways) Northwest etc etc all served LGW.


I seem to recall Piedmont starting up TATL operations in the mid-to-late 1980s, serving CLT-LGW with the 767. This of course was shortly before they merged into USAir.

Yeah that’s true with the 762, thus becoming USAir.
Hey also I am forgetting Eastern with the DC10 too, and World, ATA on the charter side of things.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:55 pm

Galwayman wrote:
US3 Are lazy lazy lazy and entitled . Don’t really want to fly anywhere

If you were going for the "Most Thoughtless Post of the Thread" award... you may have just won it.


crescent wrote:
US carriers except AA all flew to LGW when LHR was strictly slot-controlled.

You're confusing AA with UA, and confusing slots with bilateral route authority.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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777PHX
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:57 pm

crescent wrote:
US carriers except AA all flew to LGW when LHR was strictly slot-controlled. They all went to LHR when it opened up and haven't gone back to LGW since, and a large reason besides yields is the lack of alliance connections at LGW.


AA flew to LGW from RDU, DFW and STL at varying times.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:30 pm

what you also need to bear in mind for the US3 is that they're all operating metal neutral TATL jointventures, and as BA/IB/AY (for AA), LH/LX/OS/SN (for UA) and VS/AF/KL/AZ (for DL) all primarily operate from LHR, any flights put onto LGW/STN/LTN would effectively be point to point, so much greater yields can be made operating to LHR and having the option of selling connecting flights, too.

The US3 also have more than one base each, whereas Emirates, Turkish, Cathay and Qatar all just operate from one hub each, so it's easier for them to offer numerous nonstop options to all their Passengers depending where in London they're heading, whereas the US3 would have to run numerous flights from different Hubs to have all the same nonstop possibilities.

The Chinese carriers for the most part are not big on premium classes, so without any joint ventures of their own, they'll just look to wherever they can operate the cheapest.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airs

Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:56 pm

rutankrd wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

But B6 would also need to go with a wide-body plane as well to properly utilize LGW slots. It would be a waste flying a narrow-body plane from the USA to Gatwick at least from JFK. They could pull off a J-W-Y+-Y model though, commanding significant yields and brand recognition at the US point of sale to mess with LGW, and I suspect they could have a few other destinations with wide-bodies too that could all target DY/DI/DU/D8.

While it's not the topic of the OP, one can also say the same thing about Paris---why does no US carrier fly to ORY, which is where the connection to the Air France domestic network (and overseas departments) is primarily? (The only link from the USA to Orly is Air France's JFK-ORY flight, which in winter is sub-daily.)


US carriers fly into CDG because the French government forced them to the airport. They are not allowed US-ORY services.


Not true in the US- EU openskys treaty US carriers can fly into Orly any time they want . That said the market differential of Paris airports is rather similar to London in many ways


Open sky's allows them to fly to any airport France allows. US carriers were moved a long time ago. When they tried for new slots France has not made any available. They want ORY as more of a EU to EU airport. Show us where there are slots to add flights by the US3.
 
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mooseofspruce
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:58 pm

I'd particularly echo the replies of metal-neutral JVs or yields as for going to LHR. I do remember flying LGW-DFW on AA a while ago though.

You might know this already about AC's attempt into LGW but pax flying into LHR on AC mainline but getting the Rouge product out of LGW may be what threw that off, where even intending to aim at different markets gets ruined by the system offering mix and match return itineraries on price.
aemoreira1981 wrote:

While it's not the topic of the OP, one can also say the same thing about Paris---why does no US carrier fly to ORY, which is where the connection to the Air France domestic network (and overseas departments) is primarily? (The only link from the USA to Orly is Air France's JFK-ORY flight, which in winter is sub-daily.)

USA-ORY has grown fast over the past year though indeed with no US/3 carrier, with La Compagnie (moved from CDG to ORY in April), Level (with Openskies' AOC) and Norwegian all serving ORY-EWR with a combined 21x weekly this winter. Level's ORY-EWR initially looked to be 2x weekly, but by late December will be 4x weekly since the 2x YUL was cut until May 2019 and will be used for EWR. In addition is French bee's 3x weekly ORY-SFO as their intermediate stop to PPT.

Presumably ORY slots are harder to come by anyway (as far as I can tell, Norwegian swapped the OSL slot to CDG so they could join the EWR-ORY bloodbath).
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rbavfan
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:09 pm

mooseofspruce wrote:
I'd particularly echo the replies of metal-neutral JVs or yields as for going to LHR. I do remember flying LGW-DFW on AA a while ago though.

You might know this already about AC's attempt into LGW but pax flying into LHR on AC mainline but getting the Rouge product out of LGW may be what threw that off, where even intending to aim at different markets gets ruined by the system offering mix and match return itineraries on price.
aemoreira1981 wrote:

While it's not the topic of the OP, one can also say the same thing about Paris---why does no US carrier fly to ORY, which is where the connection to the Air France domestic network (and overseas departments) is primarily? (The only link from the USA to Orly is Air France's JFK-ORY flight, which in winter is sub-daily.)

USA-ORY has grown fast over the past year though indeed with no US/3 carrier, with La Compagnie (moved from CDG to ORY in April), Level (with Openskies' AOC) and Norwegian all serving ORY-EWR with a combined 21x weekly this winter. Level's ORY-EWR initially looked to be 2x weekly, but by late December will be 4x weekly since the 2x YUL was cut until May 2019 and will be used for EWR. In addition is French bee's 3x weekly ORY-SFO as their intermediate stop to PPT.

Presumably ORY slots are harder to come by anyway (as far as I can tell, Norwegian swapped the OSL slot to CDG so they could join the EWR-ORY bloodbath).


Yes and they are all EU based airlines that have always had option to do ORY-US.
 
jfk777
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:16 am

The US3 don;t fly to Gatwick because they no longer have to, LHR was opened in 2008 and all flights which could go to LHR did. LGW was an edict by the British Government and the Bermuda 2 agreement, the most socialist air treaty ever, forcing none BA, TWA and Pan AM to fly from LGW. Those three's new routes were from LGW like TWA to STL. Only cities flown from the USA in 1977 could continue flying to LHR and by the 3 airlines listed. SO if a new airline like British Calendonian wanted to fly from London to JFK they were Gatwicked. Braniff, Delta, Continental, Northwest, Piedmont, Virgin Atlantic and British Caledonian were LGW.

In 2008 things opened up at LHR and the race to go to LHR began, Delta even purchased 49% of Virgin Atlantic to get to LHR. AA & UA got the core of their slots from TWA & PA in 1991. Continental spent USD 200 million for four slots. AA ditched LGW becoming quite the purchaser of LHR slots, it even traded one to Air China for a slot at the Peking airport. The Life and Times of Heathrow Slots, a great novel of nonfiction.
 
phllax
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:22 am

jfk777 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?


AA will never admit it but they flew from JFK to Stansted to out Max jet out of business and they and 9/11 did bankrupt them. Max jet also expanded to all kinds of places like LAX and few other cities, they flew very old 767's.


I swear that the AA JFK STN flight was Pre- 9/11 and flown with a 757 sold as all coach. Maxjet didn’t come until 2004 unless AA flew it twice.
 
ty97
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:35 am

phllax wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?


AA will never admit it but they flew from JFK to Stansted to out Max jet out of business and they and 9/11 did bankrupt them. Max jet also expanded to all kinds of places like LAX and few other cities, they flew very old 767's.


I swear that the AA JFK STN flight was Pre- 9/11 and flown with a 757 sold as all coach. Maxjet didn’t come until 2004 unless AA flew it twice.


Started in 2007, ended in 2008, to drive MaxJet off (not sure about any prior service)

https://www.vosizneias.com/16502/2008/0 ... d-flights/
 
DeltaPrince
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:09 am

jfk777 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Didn't AA experiment with STN for a short time?


AA will never admit it but they flew from JFK to Stansted to out Max jet out of business and they and 9/11 did bankrupt them. Max jet also expanded to all kinds of places like LAX and few other cities, they flew very old 767's.


How did 9/11 help bankrupt Maxjet?

Maxjet operated between 2003 and 2007.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:21 pm

Probably the only reasons one might see a US3 airline in LGW or STN or LTN (!), is, when there's a demand (read seasonal operations) and:
1 it can't get aircraft capacity upgrade in flights to LHR.
2 it can't get that specific time slot for a new flight suitable for its hub bank arrival/departure times,
3 It's planning to offer red-eyes flights from LON to one of its hubs (for departures after midnight, only STN could work),
4 It's after a niche market, like a UA EWR-LTN and/or EWR-LGW.
5 Wants to fly B737/A320 non-stop from BOS but tries to ensure that air traffic congestion - landing and taking-off - will be bearable.
I'd dare to write, that a return of UA EWR-BRS may aslo be conditioned to most of the same reasons why US3 would fly to the other LON airport.
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Breathe
Posts: 516
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:22 pm

I wonder if the common ownership of LHR and LGW in the BAA days played a factor in deciding which flights went into which airport. This was certainly the case when GLA and EDI were both owned by BAA.
 
Cunard
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Re: Why don't the US3 fly to other London airports?

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:11 am

Breathe wrote:
I wonder if the common ownership of LHR and LGW in the BAA days played a factor in deciding which flights went into which airport. This was certainly the case when GLA and EDI were both owned by BAA.


The former BAA British Airports Authority was a wholly owned government body that controlled the three major London airports of LGW, LHR and STN.

In 1977 the British government of the day declared that LHR was full and after spending a huge amount of money upgrading Gatwick as an alternative international gateway to London and supplementing Heathrow and therefore all new airlines entering the London market would have to use Gatwick as their London gateway.

This move then saw a huge growth in long haul traffic to Gatwick with major airlines from all over the world commencing service plus with US deregulation in 1977 and with the Bermuda II agreement being signed saw a huge increase of flights between Gatwick and the USA especially by the US airlines.


Heathrow was finally opened up to new entrants in 1991 and many of the airlines uprooted from Gatwick except the US airlines that under Bermuda II still had to remain at Gatwick until 2008 when the new European Open Skies agreement came into place.

Although not operating all at the same time London Gatwick Airport in the past has seen scheduled connections to many destinations in the USA from many US airlines including the following, Braniff and Delta being the first of the US airlines with both commencing Transatlantic scheduled service to Gatwick in 1978.

Air Florida...Miami, Tampa
Air Total...Pittsburgh
Arrow Air...Denver, Tampa
American Airlines...Chicago, Dallas/Ft Worth, Miami, Nashville, New York JFK, Raleigh/Durham, St. Louis
Braniff International...Dallas/Ft Worth
Continental Airlines...Cleveland, Denver, Houston, Miami, Newark
Delta Air Lines...Atlanta, Boston?, Cincinnati, Detroit, Miami, New York JFK
Eastern Airlines...Miami
Laker (Bahamas/US Based) Ft Lauderdale
Northwest Airlines...Boston, Detroit, Minneapolis/St Paul
Pan Am...Detroit, Houston, Miami
Piedmont Airlines...Charlotte
Peoplexpress...Newark
Trans World Airlines...Baltimore, New York JFK, St. Louis
US Airways...Baltimore, Charlotte, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
Western Airlines...Anchorage, Denver, Honolulu
World Airways...Baltimore, Boston

Various airlines from the USA also undertook charter flights into Gatwick and during the eighties and early nineties there were many flights operated, various US airlines used Gatwick including the following,

American Trans Air
Capitol Airlines
Hawaiian Airlines
Global International Airlines
Metro International
Overseas National Airlines
Rich International
Saturn Airways
Tower Air
Transamerica/Trans International
United Airlines (1983 only)
World Airways

Currently London Gatwick Airport sees service to the following destinations in the USA

Austin...Norwegian
Boston...Norwegian
Chicago...Norwegian
Denver...Norwegian
Ft Lauderdale...British Airways, Norwegian
Las Vegas...British Airways, Norwegian, (Virgin Atlantic until March 2019)
Los Angeles...Norwegian
New York JFK...British Airways, Norwegian
Oakland...Norwegian
Orlando...British Airways, Norwegian, Virgin Atlantic
Seattle...Norwegian
Tampa...British Airways, Norwegian

LGW is well covered with flights to the USA with the above mentioned flights although I can see Honolulu being added at some point in the future, with Hawaiian Airlines maybe :-)
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