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caliboy93
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Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:47 pm

North America has Boeing, Europe has Airbus. So it's logical that in the near future Asia, especially China may be developing its own commercial aircraft. What are your thoughts on this? If not China, the next logical would be a joint Japan-Korea-Taiwan venture.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:06 am

Umm...China had been building their aircraft for awhile, as did Japan.

China - Xian MA60, Harbin Y-12, Comac ARJ-21, and soon, C919 (although that had turn into a joint China-Russia effort). Are any of them any good? Not really. :white:
Japan - Former NAMC YS-11. Mitsubishi MRJ project is ongoing, although delayed many times. Japan also provides numerous components for projects like 767 (IIRC) and 787.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:41 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
C919 (although that had turn into a joint China-Russia effort).


No, the CR929 will be the one that has Russian components.

C919 is entirely designed in China but incorporates many western design elements, such as the engines, avionics, etc.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
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tjcab
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:14 am

Aviation building a global affair. I'm tired of reading comments like "...but it incorporates many western..."

When it comes to China and/or Russia, why do we always have to make it a point to say that it's not really Chinese because it has western components? So what? Seems like we are always trying to create some unnecessary double standard. Is it China vs the world? Airbus, for one, is a multi-national company with avionics and components from all over the world. Boeing has suppliers dased overseas in countries including Japan, Italy, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden and France. How often do we hear comments like "Bombardier aircraft are not really Canadian," or "Embraer planes are not really Brazilian" etc. Let's not make exceptions when it comes to China and Russia. There are few heavy industry products today that are 100% from one country.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:27 am

plus Indonesia...

 
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Aesma
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:23 am

An indication China is not yet up to snuff : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1N42QG
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:28 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
C919 (although that had turn into a joint China-Russia effort).


No, the CR929 will be the one that has Russian components.

C919 is entirely designed in China but incorporates many western design elements, such as the engines, avionics, etc.


You are correct. I type my reply completely from memory.

C919 maybe using “western elements” at least initially, but you can bet China is developing their own engine (in progress) and their own avionics (well, or “modify” it and call it Chinese). It is definitely a Chinese airplane, though.

tjcab wrote:
Aviation building a global affair. I'm tired of reading comments like "...but it incorporates many western..."

When it comes to China and/or Russia, why do we always have to make it a point to say that it's not really Chinese because it has western components? So what? Seems like we are always trying to create some unnecessary double standard. Is it China vs the world? Airbus, for one, is a multi-national company with avionics and components from all over the world. Boeing has suppliers dased overseas in countries including Japan, Italy, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden and France. How often do we hear comments like "Bombardier aircraft are not really Canadian," or "Embraer planes are not really Brazilian" etc. Let's not make exceptions when it comes to China and Russia. There are few heavy industry products today that are 100% from one country.


And it is something that many people actually don’t understand (not just airplanes, but automotives and electronics and pretty much everything nowaday), i.e. final assembly of a Boeing airplane maybe in US, but many of its components are not.

Speaking of China, there is that A320 Final Assembly Plant in Tianjin. Those planes are, well, “made in China” :duck: (although those planes only goes to Chinese airlines).
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:06 am

zakuivcustom wrote:

C919 maybe using “western elements” at least initially, but you can bet China is developing their own engine (in progress) and their own avionics (well, or “modify” it and call it Chinese). It is definitely a Chinese airplane, though.



There's actually an engine called the CJ-1000A (Chang Jiang 1000A) that COMAC hopes to put on the C919.
Also, don't forget the A330 cabin outfitting center in TSN as well! At least the interior is "made in China."
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:32 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
tjcab wrote:
Aviation building a global affair. I'm tired of reading comments like "...but it incorporates many western..."

When it comes to China and/or Russia, why do we always have to make it a point to say that it's not really Chinese because it has western components? So what? Seems like we are always trying to create some unnecessary double standard. Is it China vs the world? Airbus, for one, is a multi-national company with avionics and components from all over the world. Boeing has suppliers dased overseas in countries including Japan, Italy, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden and France. How often do we hear comments like "Bombardier aircraft are not really Canadian," or "Embraer planes are not really Brazilian" etc. Let's not make exceptions when it comes to China and Russia. There are few heavy industry products today that are 100% from one country.


And it is something that many people actually don’t understand (not just airplanes, but automotives and electronics and pretty much everything nowaday), i.e. final assembly of a Boeing airplane maybe in US, but many of its components are not.

Speaking of China, there is that A320 Final Assembly Plant in Tianjin. Those planes are, well, “made in China” :duck: (although those planes only goes to Chinese airlines).

Slight correction there, AirAsia has received several TSN built A320 recently. TLS and HAM can't produce fast enough for them.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:57 pm

juliuswong wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
tjcab wrote:
Aviation building a global affair. I'm tired of reading comments like "...but it incorporates many western..."

When it comes to China and/or Russia, why do we always have to make it a point to say that it's not really Chinese because it has western components? So what? Seems like we are always trying to create some unnecessary double standard. Is it China vs the world? Airbus, for one, is a multi-national company with avionics and components from all over the world. Boeing has suppliers dased overseas in countries including Japan, Italy, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden and France. How often do we hear comments like "Bombardier aircraft are not really Canadian," or "Embraer planes are not really Brazilian" etc. Let's not make exceptions when it comes to China and Russia. There are few heavy industry products today that are 100% from one country.


And it is something that many people actually don’t understand (not just airplanes, but automotives and electronics and pretty much everything nowaday), i.e. final assembly of a Boeing airplane maybe in US, but many of its components are not.

Speaking of China, there is that A320 Final Assembly Plant in Tianjin. Those planes are, well, “made in China” :duck: (although those planes only goes to Chinese airlines).

Slight correction there, AirAsia has received several TSN built A320 recently. TLS and HAM can't produce fast enough for them.


Forgot about AirAsia :cry2: .

N14AZ wrote:
plus Indonesia...


To be fair, CN-235 is half Spain half Indonesia (it was a joint venture). Too bad N-250 (which would be 100% Indonesian) didn’t went anywhere. There is N-219 that has some potential for commercial use, at least for hopping between Indonesian islands (right now seems like Thailand is also interested).

FlightLevel360 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

C919 maybe using “western elements” at least initially, but you can bet China is developing their own engine (in progress) and their own avionics (well, or “modify” it and call it Chinese). It is definitely a Chinese airplane, though.



There's actually an engine called the CJ-1000A (Chang Jiang 1000A) that COMAC hopes to put on the C919.
Also, don't forget the A330 cabin outfitting center in TSN as well! At least the interior is "made in China."


And maybe Chinese can actually build a better engine than “western” manufacturers. Not hard to beat PW1000 or Trent 1000. :duck:
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:43 pm

I'm waiting for China to develop a reliable aircraft. Over 99% dispatch reliability (with 15 minutes) is required to sell new. One also must be more efficient than the prior generation, have equivalent or lower maintenance costs, and offer something other than being an indigenous product. Aviation is built off economy of scale.

Not one MA-60 made it to the first heavy maintenance check that I know of. If you know of any, please let me know (all parked early).
The MA-600 wasn't much better, so another version is being developed.
The ARJ-21 requires 7 planes to perform the duty of 2 (if say replaced by an E2-190). If this was being fixed... But the reality is it wasn't ready to be certified when it was certified.
The C919 isn't meeting FAA or EASA cockpit quidelines, so isn't Western certifiable.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -standards

The C929 is ambitious.

People give the Trents and PW1500Gs grief, but despite the issues, both have 99% dispatch reliability (they just both go through spare engines a wee bit too quickly). But the issues are being engineered out. Engines are even harder to support than aircraft. Recall about half the maintenance expenses are the engines. Most of the scrap value of an airframe is the engines. Part of the ARJ-21 issues is the engines were starved cooling (a quick and easy way to improve fuel burn, if it works...) creating issues.

You need to listen to lower level engineers to correct products. China has too much top down direction to fix issues.

Lightsaber
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Super80Fan
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:51 pm

I don't think they are active anymore, but didn't Delta have a couple of MD-90's that were built in China?
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
spacecadet
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The C919 isn't meeting FAA or EASA cockpit quidelines, so isn't Western certifiable.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -standards


That seems like a pretty major oversight!

They didn't even check the FARs until the design had been finalized and implemented in prototypes?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Blervis
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:03 pm

Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:01 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
I don't think they are active anymore, but didn't Delta have a couple of MD-90's that were built in China?


To my knowledge there were only two, N964DN and N965DN; both of which were put into storage earlier this year.
 
global2
Posts: 522
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
An indication China is not yet up to snuff : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1N42QG


Thank you for posting this. It's a whole lot more than just not being "up to snuff".
 
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c933103
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Re: Commercial Aircraft built in Asia

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:16 am

tjcab wrote:
Aviation building a global affair. I'm tired of reading comments like "...but it incorporates many western..."

When it comes to China and/or Russia, why do we always have to make it a point to say that it's not really Chinese because it has western components? So what? Seems like we are always trying to create some unnecessary double standard. Is it China vs the world? Airbus, for one, is a multi-national company with avionics and components from all over the world. Boeing has suppliers dased overseas in countries including Japan, Italy, Korea, Germany, the United Kingdom, Sweden and France. How often do we hear comments like "Bombardier aircraft are not really Canadian," or "Embraer planes are not really Brazilian" etc. Let's not make exceptions when it comes to China and Russia. There are few heavy industry products today that are 100% from one country.

Maybe because of the Chinese ambition to lead the west, and also the desire for China to create a complete, individual, compering industrial system that would still be functional even if the west stop trading with China
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