geg2rap
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Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:29 am

First time for the big bird at KDEN? Anyone know why she diverted!?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FHP ... /KLAX/LFPG
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:10 am

Medical diversion.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
max550
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:59 pm

It appears it was in fact the first A380 to land in Denver. https://coloradosun.com/2018/11/05/a380 ... irst-time/
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:00 pm

Fortunately the weather is much colder. I don't know if there were have been problems at DEN had it been a hot summer day.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:07 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Fortunately the weather is much colder. I don't know if there were have been problems at DEN had it been a hot summer day.

Likely no issues. The A380 has great hot and high performance because of its huge wing and DEN has nice long runways anyway.
 
Fatbus
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:08 pm

Not an issue. JNB about the same.
 
airbazar
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:10 pm

Actually Winter may pose a bigger problem if there is a need to de-ice. One reason the A380 can't fly to Boston in the Winter is because BOS doesn't have de-icing equipment for an A380. I'd be surprised if DEN has it.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:19 pm

airbazar wrote:
Actually Winter may pose a bigger problem if there is a need to de-ice. One reason the A380 can't fly to Boston in the Winter is because BOS doesn't have de-icing equipment for an A380. I'd be surprised if DEN has it.


How is de-icing a A380 so much different than de-icing a 747-8i?
 
max550
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:29 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Fortunately the weather is much colder. I don't know if there were have been problems at DEN had it been a hot summer day.

AF flies the A380 into MEX, which is about 2000ft (600m) higher than DEN and hotter than DEN as well. Can’t imagine they’d run into any issues in DEN that they don’t already deal with at MEX.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:34 pm

Yeah, quads tend to be great at hot and high because you only lose 25% with an engine out.
 
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Acey
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:49 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Actually Winter may pose a bigger problem if there is a need to de-ice. One reason the A380 can't fly to Boston in the Winter is because BOS doesn't have de-icing equipment for an A380. I'd be surprised if DEN has it.


How is de-icing a A380 so much different than de-icing a 747-8i?


Tail is 5 meters higher. That is presumably the limiting factor.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:30 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Actually Winter may pose a bigger problem if there is a need to de-ice. One reason the A380 can't fly to Boston in the Winter is because BOS doesn't have de-icing equipment for an A380. I'd be surprised if DEN has it.


How is de-icing a A380 so much different than de-icing a 747-8i?


As Acey said, tail height.
Deicing everything but the vertical stabilizer.... is not deicing.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:38 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Actually Winter may pose a bigger problem if there is a need to de-ice. One reason the A380 can't fly to Boston in the Winter is because BOS doesn't have de-icing equipment for an A380. I'd be surprised if DEN has it.


How is de-icing a A380 so much different than de-icing a 747-8i?


As Acey said, tail height.
Deicing everything but the vertical stabilizer.... is not deicing.


Serious question, would having a stronger compressor (a cheaper solution instead of a taller de-icing arm) solve this problem? It seems like allowing an A380 to land would pay for the upgrades.

I heard, anecdotally, from someone working at GRR that the detours from DTW and ORD during weather bring in quite a bit of money.

In addition, this would allow airlines to fly an A380 which could be filled during the winter with Ski traffic?
 
max550
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:57 am

WorldFlier wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:

How is de-icing a A380 so much different than de-icing a 747-8i?


As Acey said, tail height.
Deicing everything but the vertical stabilizer.... is not deicing.


Serious question, would having a stronger compressor (a cheaper solution instead of a taller de-icing arm) solve this problem? It seems like allowing an A380 to land would pay for the upgrades.

I heard, anecdotally, from someone working at GRR that the detours from DTW and ORD during weather bring in quite a bit of money.

In addition, this would allow airlines to fly an A380 which could be filled during the winter with Ski traffic?


No idea about the compressor vs. longer arm idea, but I'm sure they'd invest the money if someone were interested in serving DEN with an A380, even infrequently as subs or charters. As for bringing in diversions, the problem with that idea is that the closest airports served by A380's are 800+ miles away and generally not very prone to major weather issues. The fact that it took close to a decade to get one A380 diversion shows there's not that much demand for A380 diversions to DEN.

I'd love to see an A380 serving DEN, but at the moment it looks unlikely. Perhaps when BA eventually retires the 744's we'll see them more frequently.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:40 am

How can it be that a prominent airport such as BOS or DEN which are en route of several A380 flights each day are not equipped to handle a regularly scheduled aircraft in case of an emergency in a leading industrial country? I am just flabbergasted ....
 
FGITD
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:47 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
How can it be that a prominent airport such as BOS or DEN which are en route of several A380 flights each day are not equipped to handle a regularly scheduled aircraft in case of an emergency in a leading industrial country? I am just flabbergasted ....



An a380 capable deicing truck is amongst the most expensive piece of ramp equipment. They cost in the millions range.

BOS is actually capable now. I think 1 provider has the trucks. But it is a massive investment to make for an as needed basis.
 
tootallsd
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:03 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
How can it be that a prominent airport such as BOS or DEN which are en route of several A380 flights each day are not equipped to handle a regularly scheduled aircraft in case of an emergency in a leading industrial country? I am just flabbergasted ....


I would suggest the issue is economics. There is no economic basis for the investment in gates, de-icing equipment, etc if there is no expectation of service.
 
STLflyer
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:03 am

JayBCNLON wrote:
How can it be that a prominent airport such as BOS or DEN which are en route of several A380 flights each day are not equipped to handle a regularly scheduled aircraft in case of an emergency in a leading industrial country? I am just flabbergasted ....


The A380 has been in service for 13 years. This is the first time one has had to divert to DEN and airlines aren’t exactly rushing to buy more. Why buy equipment when the odds of not only receiving an A380 diversion, but receiving it during the few months out of the year where de-icing equipment is necessary, is minuscule?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:13 am

max550 wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:

As Acey said, tail height.
Deicing everything but the vertical stabilizer.... is not deicing.


Serious question, would having a stronger compressor (a cheaper solution instead of a taller de-icing arm) solve this problem? It seems like allowing an A380 to land would pay for the upgrades.

I heard, anecdotally, from someone working at GRR that the detours from DTW and ORD during weather bring in quite a bit of money.

In addition, this would allow airlines to fly an A380 which could be filled during the winter with Ski traffic?


No idea about the compressor vs. longer arm idea, but I'm sure they'd invest the money if someone were interested in serving DEN with an A380, even infrequently as subs or charters. As for bringing in diversions, the problem with that idea is that the closest airports served by A380's are 800+ miles away and generally not very prone to major weather issues. The fact that it took close to a decade to get one A380 diversion shows there's not that much demand for A380 diversions to DEN.

I'd love to see an A380 serving DEN, but at the moment it looks unlikely. Perhaps when BA eventually retires the 744's we'll see them more frequently.

Id say LH is more likely. They fly to DEN with the 744 and A350 daily from FRA and MUC respectively. But of course theyd upgauge to a 748 first.
When wasn't America great?


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expert7700
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:40 am

FGITD wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
How can it be that a prominent airport such as BOS or DEN which are en route of several A380 flights each day are not equipped to handle a regularly scheduled aircraft in case of an emergency in a leading industrial country? I am just flabbergasted ....



An a380 capable deicing truck is amongst the most expensive piece of ramp equipment. They cost in the millions range.

BOS is actually capable now. I think 1 provider has the trucks. But it is a massive investment to make for an as needed basis.


I'd love to know what contingency plans are among the airlines.... If an A380 lands in DEN (or anywhere without the right truck) and ice forms on descent or after landing.

does it wait for springtime?

does someone fudge paperwork and have it take off "partially" deiced?

do they do what Turkish airlines did and MacGyver a solution?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/dest ... -de-icing/

does someone transport a deice truck by ground from 1000 miles away?
 
FGITD
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:20 am

expert7700 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
JayBCNLON wrote:
How can it be that a prominent airport such as BOS or DEN which are en route of several A380 flights each day are not equipped to handle a regularly scheduled aircraft in case of an emergency in a leading industrial country? I am just flabbergasted ....



An a380 capable deicing truck is amongst the most expensive piece of ramp equipment. They cost in the millions range.

BOS is actually capable now. I think 1 provider has the trucks. But it is a massive investment to make for an as needed basis.


I'd love to know what contingency plans are among the airlines.... If an A380 lands in DEN (or anywhere without the right truck) and ice forms on descent or after landing.

does it wait for springtime?

does someone fudge paperwork and have it take off "partially" deiced?

do they do what Turkish airlines did and MacGyver a solution?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/dest ... -de-icing/

does someone transport a deice truck by ground from 1000 miles away?



A partial deice is a good way to rapidly disassemble the airplane.

Most likely they would pay to have one trucked to wherever it's needed. Or just wait out, let the plane sit out in the sun for awhile.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:51 am

max550 wrote:
I'd love to see an A380 serving DEN, but at the moment it looks unlikely. Perhaps when BA eventually retires the 744's we'll see them more frequently.


I would too, though it seems like the A350-1000 is probably the ideal plane for BA on that route. I think LH would consider it, but it's sounding like a second DEN-FRA on UA metal is more likely. Plus, would the airport really want to spend the money to be A380 capable for one, at most two flights a day?
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Fatbus
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:06 am

380 can be de-iced in BOS and DEN
 
csavel
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:37 am

LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, quads tend to be great at hot and high because you only lose 25% with an engine out.


I thought twins were actually good at hot and high because you have to be able to lose 50% with engine out which means each engine has to pack a lot of power. For example, wasn't July in Denver one factor (of many) as to why the 757 is called the rocket?
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
Fatbus
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:13 am

Quad is able to attain the min climb gradient at a higher relative weight with an eng out
 
airbazar
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:12 pm

FGITD wrote:
expert7700 wrote:
FGITD wrote:


An a380 capable deicing truck is amongst the most expensive piece of ramp equipment. They cost in the millions range.

BOS is actually capable now. I think 1 provider has the trucks. But it is a massive investment to make for an as needed basis.


I'd love to know what contingency plans are among the airlines.... If an A380 lands in DEN (or anywhere without the right truck) and ice forms on descent or after landing.
[...]


A partial deice is a good way to rapidly disassemble the airplane.

Most likely they would pay to have one trucked to wherever it's needed. Or just wait out, let the plane sit out in the sun for awhile.


Or it wouldn't land there in the first place if the weather was such that required de-icing. I'm sure airlines are aware of the airport's capabilities.

But as stated above, it looks like both BOS and DEN are now capable of de-icing the A380 so this is a moot point.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:41 pm

DFW gets occasional ice storms and snow so are they equipped to de-ice a A380?
 
anon2070
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:34 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
DFW gets occasional ice storms and snow so are they equipped to de-ice a A380?

They have scheduled A380 service on at least 2 and sometimes up to 4 carriers, so why wouldn't they be?
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:00 pm

anon2070 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
DFW gets occasional ice storms and snow so are they equipped to de-ice a A380?

They have scheduled A380 service on at least 2 and sometimes up to 4 carriers, so why wouldn't they be?


Only 1 carrier (QF) so that is why was asking the question.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:46 am

csavel wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, quads tend to be great at hot and high because you only lose 25% with an engine out.


I thought twins were actually good at hot and high because you have to be able to lose 50% with engine out which means each engine has to pack a lot of power. For example, wasn't July in Denver one factor (of many) as to why the 757 is called the rocket?


The 757 is a rocket with both engines working.

Quads are better at hot and high because the calculations are done with one engine out. It has nothing to do with the performance when all engines are OK.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
csavel
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:29 am

Aesma wrote:
csavel wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, quads tend to be great at hot and high because you only lose 25% with an engine out.


I thought twins were actually good at hot and high because you have to be able to lose 50% with engine out which means each engine has to pack a lot of power. For example, wasn't July in Denver one factor (of many) as to why the 757 is called the rocket?


The 757 is a rocket with both engines working.

Quads are better at hot and high because the calculations are done with one engine out. It has nothing to do with the performance when all engines are OK.


That is what I mean.. If a twin loses an engine it has lost half its power but a quad only loses a quarter of its power. The quad equivalent of a 757 losing an engine would be losing both engines on one side. So you would want the engines of a twin to be a bit "overpowered."
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
2175301
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 am

FGITD wrote:
Most likely they would pay to have one trucked to wherever it's needed. Or just wait out, let the plane sit out in the sun for awhile.


Most likely they would just let the aircraft sit a day for when the ice melts off. Denver weather rarely stays bad for long. Even major snowstorms typically melt off roads in a few days (Denver has very limited snow plowing equipment - just enough for the major highways - the rest of the city pretty much waits for the snow to melt).

Have a great day,
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:26 am

csavel wrote:
Aesma wrote:
csavel wrote:

I thought twins were actually good at hot and high because you have to be able to lose 50% with engine out which means each engine has to pack a lot of power. For example, wasn't July in Denver one factor (of many) as to why the 757 is called the rocket?


The 757 is a rocket with both engines working.

Quads are better at hot and high because the calculations are done with one engine out. It has nothing to do with the performance when all engines are OK.


That is what I mean.. If a twin loses an engine it has lost half its power but a quad only loses a quarter of its power. The quad equivalent of a 757 losing an engine would be losing both engines on one side. So you would want the engines of a twin to be a bit "overpowered."


They are a bit 'overpowered'. But the ability to run hot and high depends on the 1 engine out scenario. So it's the difference of operating at 75% of capacity or 50%.

I think we're talking past each other though. You're talking when everything runs normally. Unfortunately the performance you have to plan for isn't based on that.
 
BKKA350
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:44 am

Hi,
First post here, despite lurking for a long time.
The article in the Colorado Sun states that
"The airport has one of the longest runways in the U.S., meaning it can accommodate an A380 without issue. It also can handle one of the planes at a gate, but last night the plane was parked away from the terminal."
My question is: Wouldn't they have had to dump fuel to land so close to LAX, and wouldn't they have had to refuel in any case due to the diversion? If so, why were the passengers left on board?

Thanks

Paul
 
WIederling
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:55 am

csavel wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Yeah, quads tend to be great at hot and high because you only lose 25% with an engine out.


I thought twins were actually good at hot and high because you have to be able to lose 50% with engine out which means each engine has to pack a lot of power. For example, wasn't July in Denver one factor (of many) as to why the 757 is called the rocket?


capabilities under "One Engine Out" goes into runway requirements and such.
Both engines running is irrelevant in that context.
Murphy is an optimist
 
mcg
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:36 pm

Where did the airplane park?
 
max550
Posts: 725
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Re: Air France A380 diverts to Denver

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:38 pm

BKKA350 wrote:
Hi,
First post here, despite lurking for a long time.
The article in the Colorado Sun states that
"The airport has one of the longest runways in the U.S., meaning it can accommodate an A380 without issue. It also can handle one of the planes at a gate, but last night the plane was parked away from the terminal."
My question is: Wouldn't they have had to dump fuel to land so close to LAX, and wouldn't they have had to refuel in any case due to the diversion? If so, why were the passengers left on board?

Thanks

Paul


They flew south east and did a loop around 27000 feet before coming in but I didn’t hear anything on liveatc about dumping fuel. They did close runway 34L for an inspection after it landed, but no idea if that was due to it being overweight or if that’s sop after an A380 lands.

mcg wrote:
Where did the airplane park?

On the parking area off the south side of the taxiway that connects 34L to the concourses. Hopefully I’m explaining that properly.

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