adam47150
Posts: 67
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:38 pm

Noob question so please don't pounce on me, but is it possible that Indigo pulled out of talks in order to let WOW fold so that they could then swoop in and purchase the AOC and remnants at below firesale prices?
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 323
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:41 pm

max999 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:
santi319 wrote:
RIP WOW

Long haul low cost in the western world just doesnt work...


People got used to cheap air fares and think it's normal to pay money for tickets, which barely cover the costs and provide low wage jobs. So unfortunately others will try, fill the gap ...and probably fail too. I blame the passengers, who want to pay less and less for a ticket (but expect full service). Yes, I agree, low cost air fares have opened the air travel market to people who would otherwise travel less, or not travel at all. But obviously in the longterm it's not viable/sustainable.

I feel sorry for the staff of WOW.


It seems like you want air travel to regress to the way it was in this picture. I'm not talking about the way people dressed; instead I'm referring to how only the select few could afford to travel by air. I disagree with you and I think we need more airlines like WOW. Air travel, especially long haul, should be available to as many people as possible.

Image


The European legacies sell dirt cheap tickets as well. And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel. Things can always happen when abroad which requires extra cash. If one is on such an extreme small budget things can only go one way.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 462
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:44 pm

Sad for the employees , but good riddance to a leech airline that dropped airfares to such low unsustainable levels. If they had more money they'd of gladly priced their competition into the same situation they now find themselves in. Hopefully Norwegian is next.
 
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TWA302
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:45 pm

adam47150 wrote:
Noob question so please don't pounce on me, but is it possible that Indigo pulled out of talks in order to let WOW fold so that they could then swoop in and purchase the AOC and remnants at below firesale prices?


I really do not think so. I think they opened up WOW's bank register, laughed, closed it and walked away.
 
max999
Posts: 1131
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:48 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
max999 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:

People got used to cheap air fares and think it's normal to pay money for tickets, which barely cover the costs and provide low wage jobs. So unfortunately others will try, fill the gap ...and probably fail too. I blame the passengers, who want to pay less and less for a ticket (but expect full service). Yes, I agree, low cost air fares have opened the air travel market to people who would otherwise travel less, or not travel at all. But obviously in the longterm it's not viable/sustainable.

I feel sorry for the staff of WOW.


It seems like you want air travel to regress to the way it was in this picture. I'm not talking about the way people dressed; instead I'm referring to how only the select few could afford to travel by air. I disagree with you and I think we need more airlines like WOW. Air travel, especially long haul, should be available to as many people as possible.

Image


The European legacies sell dirt cheap tickets as well. And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel. Things can always happen when abroad which requires extra cash. If one is on such an extreme small budget things can only go one way.


You're making a broad and unfounded generalization that people who pay for lower fares are poor.
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wexfordflyer
Posts: 184
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:56 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
max999 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:

The European legacies sell dirt cheap tickets as well. And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel. Things can always happen when abroad which requires extra cash. If one is on such an extreme small budget things can only go one way.


That's incredibly narrow minded and elitist. Making travel affordable for all is a positive thing. Sometimes people have no choice but need to fly, for things like family bereavements, medical treatment or relocation for jobs, etc. Maybe these people do not have much money, but surely they shouldn't be excluded from flying? Yes, in many cases they may not have sufficient "spare change" while abroad, but not all of us have that luxury.

No need to further separate the "haves" and "have nots".

While the WOW business model proved to be unsustainable, them being part of opening up the opportunity to travel to more people was a positive thing.
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
minilinde
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:57 pm

sw733 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Norwegian next please!


I don't understand this. Do you want to live in a world with less competition and less options for more people to see the world and learn the cultures around them? Get to their families that may otherwise be inaccessible due to expense? More people living their dream of traveling the world while working for an airline be put out of work? Are you being force to fly Norwegian in some capacity?


No, but what we need in any market is sustainable competition. WOW was never a sustainable business model, and just destroyed the market for other more serious carriers. I for one are glad that WOW is gone, now the market at large are more fair. Remember that its really easy to fill a plane with passengers, the trick is to get paid!
 
Elementalism
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:58 pm

What were the sticking points with Icelandair and Indigo? Seemed like they went at least 2 rounds with both and failed to come up with a solution.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:06 pm

Elementalism wrote:
What were the sticking points with Icelandair and Indigo? Seemed like they went at least 2 rounds with both and failed to come up with a solution.


Too much debt with little to no assets, basically. It just wasn't worth the risk, especially for FI.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:09 pm

Maybe AA can grab an available A321 for use in their grounded Max fleet...
 
lowfareair
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:10 pm

adam47150 wrote:
Noob question so please don't pounce on me, but is it possible that Indigo pulled out of talks in order to let WOW fold so that they could then swoop in and purchase the AOC and remnants at below firesale prices?


They could be doing this, but they run the risk of someone else bidding for that AOC as well. With the MAX 8 issue, lessors are already probably working on short-term leases for the aircraft so those likely won't be immediately available either.

It's probably a matter of seeing way too much debt, zero assets, and potentially a dumpster fire of their accounting standards.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14318
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:11 pm

A co-worker had bought WOW tickets about a month ago via Travelosity to go to Germany in the fall. I just told him the bad news. He isn't happy. I hope his credit card or Travelosity as bought the ticket insurance can do something about getting a refund. Still a mess for many. But I guess if the price it too low...
 
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Revelation
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Re: WOW Financial Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:12 pm

BritishB747 wrote:
Yes its all bad teeth, bowler hats, rain and queuing over here.

Aren't you obliged to mention the Queen somewhere in your statement?

BritishB747 wrote:
As a Scotsman I also eat haggis most of the time (as you alluded to in the Edinburgh/Dusseldorf thread), and I am sitting in Central London in my kilt. It is part of my 'everyday range'.

Enjoy your cheeseburger tonight!

P.S. I forgot to mention the stereotypical heavy doses of sarcasm

When my European relatives used to visit in the old days, they expected to find cowboys with six shooters in ten gallon hats, covered wagons, saloons, etc.

It was quite a let down for them, it must be said.

These days all we get is the six shooter, along with the Glocks, ARs, etc.

They did enjoy discovering McDonalds, but now I bet they regret their glee.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:14 pm

minilinde wrote:
No, but what we need in any market is sustainable competition. WOW was never a sustainable business model, and just destroyed the market for other more serious carriers. I for one are glad that WOW is gone, now the market at large are more fair. Remember that its really easy to fill a plane with passengers, the trick is to get paid!


Which "Serious carriers" are you referring to? And how is the market "not as fair" when WW was in business?

CobaltScar wrote:
Hopefully Norwegian is next.


Oh well...typical a.net, where they want monopoly and ultra expensive fares just so they can feel "elite".
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
Elementalism
Posts: 466
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:16 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
What were the sticking points with Icelandair and Indigo? Seemed like they went at least 2 rounds with both and failed to come up with a solution.


Too much debt with little to no assets, basically. It just wasn't worth the risk, especially for FI.


Yeah, I can see that as a roadblock. Shame.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:22 pm

It's a sad day, but it was largely expectable.
Wow Air's problem wasn't that they were cheap, quite the opposite.
Their no frills fares couldn't measure up to the low fares offered by the legacies, except the promotional fares which were again too low but flyable only to those who were extremely flexible with their schedules.

I predicted their demise a couple of years ago much to the dismay and disbelief of airliners.net members back then viewtopic.php?t=1351955
 
Blueknows
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:24 pm

Here comes B6
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: WOW Financial Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
No need to worry guys WOW Air has got this. The little engine that could when most people didn't want them to succeed.


And they're no doubt making already safe planes even safer.
 
Brickell305
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:25 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
minilinde wrote:
No, but what we need in any market is sustainable competition. WOW was never a sustainable business model, and just destroyed the market for other more serious carriers. I for one are glad that WOW is gone, now the market at large are more fair. Remember that its really easy to fill a plane with passengers, the trick is to get paid!


Which "Serious carriers" are you referring to? And how is the market "not as fair" when WW was in business?

CobaltScar wrote:
Hopefully Norwegian is next.


Oh well...typical a.net, where they want monopoly and ultra expensive fares just so they can feel "elite".


I don't think that's necessarily it. Many of the people on the site work for airlines and as such have never paid for travel a day in their lives and as such, it's very easy to say that airfares should double and triple when you won't be directly impacted by it.
 
IADCA
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:26 pm

minilinde wrote:
sw733 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Norwegian next please!


I don't understand this. Do you want to live in a world with less competition and less options for more people to see the world and learn the cultures around them? Get to their families that may otherwise be inaccessible due to expense? More people living their dream of traveling the world while working for an airline be put out of work? Are you being force to fly Norwegian in some capacity?


No, but what we need in any market is sustainable competition. WOW was never a sustainable business model, and just destroyed the market for other more serious carriers. I for one are glad that WOW is gone, now the market at large are more fair. Remember that its really easy to fill a plane with passengers, the trick is to get paid!


Considering the amount of money the major alliances made on transatlantic last year, I don't think the market at large needed to be "more fair." FI will benefit from this, but let's not pretend that the three JVs actually needed help competing. It's also hard to take seriously a claim of an entity that had such a tiny market share in transatlantic overall seriously affecting anyone but FI, let alone "destroy[ing] a market." No entity that small relative to its competitors and which didn't compete at all for premium cabins had the ability to make any serious dent in the big carriers' profits. What they could do was bring expanded options to extremely price-conscious customers, the kind the bigger carriers have been running away from for years now.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:27 pm

Pretty sad to see them going.

Airlines will be very keen on getting their hands on that fleet as soon as possible. Wonder who will be taking those new A330NEOs.
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
minilinde
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:28 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
minilinde wrote:
No, but what we need in any market is sustainable competition. WOW was never a sustainable business model, and just destroyed the market for other more serious carriers. I for one are glad that WOW is gone, now the market at large are more fair. Remember that its really easy to fill a plane with passengers, the trick is to get paid!


Which "Serious carriers" are you referring to? And how is the market "not as fair" when WW was in business?


Well Icelandair for one.
WW was selling tickets way below cost, which isn't healthy in any market.
 
IADCA
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:32 pm

minilinde wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
minilinde wrote:
No, but what we need in any market is sustainable competition. WOW was never a sustainable business model, and just destroyed the market for other more serious carriers. I for one are glad that WOW is gone, now the market at large are more fair. Remember that its really easy to fill a plane with passengers, the trick is to get paid!


Which "Serious carriers" are you referring to? And how is the market "not as fair" when WW was in business?


Well Icelandair for one.
WW was selling tickets way below cost, which isn't healthy in any market.


When you use a plural, I hope we can be forgiven for asking you to list more than just Icelandair.

And selling below cost is a time-honored way of building market share, even if it's not a viable long-term strategy. I find it odd that people complain when small upstart companies try something risky to compete against entrenched, much larger (and exceedingly profitable) existing competitors.

I understand the concern about FI. I'm an FI fan and fly them reasonably often, but I'm also a fan of competition. My thought about WOW has always been that Iceland was exactly the wrong place to try what they did given FI's depth of experience in the market. They could have tried the same thing via Glasgow and likely made a better fist of it, using tourist demand to Scotland instead of Iceland to blend with the connecting itineraries.
Last edited by IADCA on Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BritishB747
Posts: 239
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Re: WOW Financial Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
BritishB747 wrote:
Yes its all bad teeth, bowler hats, rain and queuing over here.

Aren't you obliged to mention the Queen somewhere in your statement?

BritishB747 wrote:
As a Scotsman I also eat haggis most of the time (as you alluded to in the Edinburgh/Dusseldorf thread), and I am sitting in Central London in my kilt. It is part of my 'everyday range'.

Enjoy your cheeseburger tonight!

P.S. I forgot to mention the stereotypical heavy doses of sarcasm

When my European relatives used to visit in the old days, they expected to find cowboys with six shooters in ten gallon hats, covered wagons, saloons, etc.

It was quite a let down for them, it must be said.

These days all we get is the six shooter, along with the Glocks, ARs, etc.

They did enjoy discovering McDonalds, but now I bet they regret their glee.


Very true. I did forget the Queen. I must bumble over there apologising profusely!

It sounds like a bit of a let down. I have the image of Clint Eastwood in a dusty western town waiting for the inevitable shootout. I must admit, I have never seen any cowboys in any of the US cities I have visited. Not cowboys in the traditional sense anyway.

Yes quite. McDonald's would not be top of my list when dining in the US, despite the familiar sounding surname.
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Revelation
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:39 pm

santi319 wrote:
RIP WOW

Long haul low cost in the western world just doesnt work...

Yet we have the rumor that B6 is about to jump in to the fray...

AIRT0M wrote:
People got used to cheap air fares and think it's normal to pay money for tickets, which barely cover the costs and provide low wage jobs. So unfortunately others will try, fill the gap ...and probably fail too. I blame the passengers, who want to pay less and less for a ticket (but expect full service). Yes, I agree, low cost air fares have opened the air travel market to people who would otherwise travel less, or not travel at all. But obviously in the longterm it's not viable/sustainable.

I feel sorry for the staff of WOW.

It seems you are saying WOW indicates the TATL LCC model is doomed, but I wouldn't go that far.

When people are willing to work for less than you, wages drop, or at least cease increasing, and the market shifts.

I know, I've helped train people in India how to maintain software I wrote.

Just because WOW failed doesn't mean there isn't a sustainable business model for TATL LCC operations.

max999 wrote:
I'm not talking about the way people dressed; instead I'm referring to how only the select few could afford to travel by air. I disagree with you and I think we need more airlines like WOW. Air travel, especially long haul, should be available to as many people as possible.

Sure, but supply vs. demand still apply.

IMHO WOW's investors made it possible for WOW to establish itself at a low price point, they over-expanded, the investors stopped investing, they've now ceased operations, and the investors will lose their shirts.

Hopefully the next batch of investors and the managers they chose will do better.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
5NFGS
Posts: 84
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:47 pm

I don't work for an airline yet,but I hope to someday!!
However my belief that fares should be at a level to allow for financially sustainable operations (min. breakeven)
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senatorflyer
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:52 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
max999 wrote:


That's incredibly narrow minded and elitist. Making travel affordable for all is a positive thing. Sometimes people have no choice but need to fly, for things like family bereavements, medical treatment or relocation for jobs, etc. Maybe these people do not have much money, but surely they shouldn't be excluded from flying? Yes, in many cases they may not have sufficient "spare change" while abroad, but not all of us have that luxury.

No need to further separate the "haves" and "have nots".

While the WOW business model proved to be unsustainable, them being part of opening up the opportunity to travel to more people was a positive thing.


I don’t think you understood what I was saying. You can book a BA ticket from LHR to BOS or NYC from GBP 260 (includes even food and drinks), if this is too expensive for someone then I am really puzzled. Fares are already as low as they can get, even with legacies.

Bereavements are ‚last minute’ events, and as a result most airfares will be expensive at short notice, even LCC.
 
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hvusslax
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:53 pm

adam47150 wrote:
Noob question so please don't pounce on me, but is it possible that Indigo pulled out of talks in order to let WOW fold so that they could then swoop in and purchase the AOC and remnants at below firesale prices?


WOW turned in their AOC this morning and the company was declared bankrupt by an Icelandic court a couple of hours ago. The AOC is linked to the company and is not transferrable. It's gone now and there is nothing left to resurrect. If anyone wants to try doing a WOW 2.0, they would need to start at square one and file for a new AOC.

As for this whole thing in general, I feel genuinely sad that it had to come to this but in no way surprised. It was fairly clear from at least November last year that the odds were stacked heavily against WOW surviving the winter. I don't think it had to come to this if they had made better choices back in 2015-2016 but hubris and over expansion got the better of them. That time when they ordered a bunch of A330s without even knowing what routes to use them for it seemed clear to me that this would likely end in tragedy.
 
ExpatVet
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Re: WOW Financial Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
BritishB747 wrote:
Yes its all bad teeth, bowler hats, rain and queuing over here.

Aren't you obliged to mention the Queen somewhere in your statement?


And cricket. Mustn't forget cricket.
Last edited by ExpatVet on Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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minilinde
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:55 pm

IADCA wrote:

When you use a plural, I hope we can be forgiven for asking you to list more than just Icelandair.

And selling below cost is a time-honored way of building market share, even if it's not a viable long-term strategy. I find it odd that people complain when small upstart companies try something risky to compete against entrenched, much larger (and exceedingly profitable) existing competitors.



Too me in northern Europe I can one-stop to most of the US with plenty of, what I see as, good carriers: SK, BA, AF/KL, LH, FI, AY. I fail to see what was so disruptive about WW except their stupid, stupid as in they'll never make money stupid, low prices.
 
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ChaseCLT
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:03 pm

That’s sad. I used WOW before from BWI to CDG. Heard lots of American families who are so nkt aviation experts saying how they always took WOW and they were pros at the WOW process (connecting through Iceland, etc.)

They were nice and it’s sad for the nice employees. I will say though, some of the comments have been cynical on here about WOW. Particularly comments acting like WOW customers were poor or something. I certainly am not, but when they are $370 vs. $1100.. why wouldn’t you take them? And also; I rather spend my miles to South America.
 
senatorflyer
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:04 pm

max999 wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
max999 wrote:

It seems like you want air travel to regress to the way it was in this picture. I'm not talking about the way people dressed; instead I'm referring to how only the select few could afford to travel by air. I disagree with you and I think we need more airlines like WOW. Air travel, especially long haul, should be available to as many people as possible.

Image


The European legacies sell dirt cheap tickets as well. And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel. Things can always happen when abroad which requires extra cash. If one is on such an extreme small budget things can only go one way.


You're making a broad and unfounded generalization that people who pay for lower fares are poor.


No I don’t, I was simply referring to your statement about ‘the select few’.
 
wexfordflyer
Posts: 184
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Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:05 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:


That's incredibly narrow minded and elitist. Making travel affordable for all is a positive thing. Sometimes people have no choice but need to fly, for things like family bereavements, medical treatment or relocation for jobs, etc. Maybe these people do not have much money, but surely they shouldn't be excluded from flying? Yes, in many cases they may not have sufficient "spare change" while abroad, but not all of us have that luxury.

No need to further separate the "haves" and "have nots".

While the WOW business model proved to be unsustainable, them being part of opening up the opportunity to travel to more people was a positive thing.


I don’t think you understood what I was saying. You can book a BA ticket from LHR to BOS or NYC from GBP 260 (includes even food and drinks), if this is too expensive for someone then I am really puzzled. Fares are already as low as they can get, even with legacies.

Bereavements are ‚last minute’ events, and as a result most airfares will be expensive at short notice, even LCC.


I understood that you said "And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel.". And I think that's narrow minded and elitist. And I stand by that.

BA having tickets for £260 is irrelevant. I'm also sure that LHR-NYC for £260 on BA is few and far between.

I never commented on whether fares should increase, decrease or anything. I said opening up travel to all (regardless of whether you can fork out 100eur or more) is a good thing. Prices of tickets is one aspect, limiting flying to those who can afford certain prices is completely another. Bringing in whether people can have comfort money while away is a whole other ballgame. In the elite world you might have it, in the real world alot of people don't. They should still be able to fly if they either want or need to.

If the business model can't sustain lower fares, then fair enough. And it may exclude people from being able to access travel, which is unfortunate. Excluding them because of what they can afford I think is bad form.

WOW tried, and they failed. Norwegian are trying, whether they succeed only time will tell.
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
FlapsOne
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:10 pm

Here's betting that most of those who say people shouldn't fly if they're on a right budget are no doubt the same type who pretend to look out for those less well off. It makes them look good online but we all know they detest the poor. They 'stand by' the less well off but sneer at them and want to dictate how they live their lives.

As a true democrat I believe in fares for all budgets and the freedom of the individual to choose when and where they spend their money.

Are we to have credit checks to buy a plane ticket in future? Should we exclude people based on how much they earn?
Last edited by FlapsOne on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DDR
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Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:10 pm

My thoughts are with all of the WOW employees. Sad when anyone loses their job!
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:11 pm

Interesting to see how this affects KEF's expansion plan and FI's response to this. It's doubtful they can come up with something for this summer, but they will probably be breathing much easier coming next winter. Also wonder if some 7M8 operators will jump on those A321s.
 
minilinde
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:15 pm

Let's not get carried away. The demised of WOW will not stop airfares to get cheaper, not in the long run. The yield of airlines are steadily declining, and have done as all as the airline business has existed.

I did a quick search for CPH-NYC on Lufthansa, and easily found tickets for a round trip for about 330 EUR. That's really cheap! I wound rather pay that and fly Lufthansa, on a proper long haul aircraft, then say 160 EUR for a ticket of WW and risk getting stuck. Seems like the market though so too.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2801
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:16 pm

IADCA wrote:
When you use a plural, I hope we can be forgiven for asking you to list more than just Icelandair.

And selling below cost is a time-honored way of building market share, even if it's not a viable long-term strategy. I find it odd that people complain when small upstart companies try something risky to compete against entrenched, much larger (and exceedingly profitable) existing competitors.

I understand the concern about FI. I'm an FI fan and fly them reasonably often, but I'm also a fan of competition. My thought about WOW has always been that Iceland was exactly the wrong place to try what they did given FI's depth of experience in the market. They could have tried the same thing via Glasgow and likely made a better fist of it, using tourist demand to Scotland instead of Iceland to blend with the connecting itineraries.


Indeed. New entrant compete on price 99.9% of the time. Hack, even short-haul LCCs does the same thing. It's not necessarily a zero-sum game when it comes to aviation anyway.

BritishB747 wrote:
It sounds like a bit of a let down. I have the image of Clint Eastwood in a dusty western town waiting for the inevitable shootout. I must admit, I have never seen any cowboys in any of the US cities I have visited. Not cowboys in the traditional sense anyway.


(Getting Off topic)
Come to West Texas or New Mexico or Arizona, you can still find cowboys. Not that they'll go around towns and go to those bars and have shootouts everyday, Wild West style, though

But hey, I'm (now former) Houstonian and my relatives from HK thinks everyone is a cowboy there anyway (Trust me, good luck finding one there), so there's that...

ExpatVet wrote:
Revelation wrote:
BritishB747 wrote:
Yes its all bad teeth, bowler hats, rain and queuing over here.

Aren't you obliged to mention the Queen somewhere in your statement?


And cricket. Mustn't forget cricket.


What? No mention of the crappy British food? Ok, that's actually not a stereotype :duck: :duck:
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
IADCA
Posts: 1864
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:16 pm

minilinde wrote:
IADCA wrote:

When you use a plural, I hope we can be forgiven for asking you to list more than just Icelandair.

And selling below cost is a time-honored way of building market share, even if it's not a viable long-term strategy. I find it odd that people complain when small upstart companies try something risky to compete against entrenched, much larger (and exceedingly profitable) existing competitors.



Too me in northern Europe I can one-stop to most of the US with plenty of, what I see as, good carriers: SK, BA, AF/KL, LH, FI, AY. I fail to see what was so disruptive about WW except their stupid, stupid as in they'll never make money stupid, low prices.


Their "stupid, low prices" made it possible for a lot of people to travel who otherwise might not have been able to. On certain city pairs, their one-stop fares via Iceland forced carriers to lower one-stop fares via European hubs, which saved me money, especially to Northern Europe when I was being cheap. I'm not going to complain about saving money. They were also a significant part of what caused competitors - even legacies - to introduce no-frills products on transatlantic. I don't buy those fares, but a lot of people do. Causing carriers as big as LH and UA to introduce a new fare product into the market sure seems like some innovative disruption to me.

You've also still failed to cite any evidence that any one of those carriers besides FI was materially negatively impacted by WOW. So, again that pesky plural.
 
Fex180
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:33 pm

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:17 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Here's betting that most of those who say people shouldn't fly if they're on a right budget are no doubt the same type who pretend to look out for those less well off. It makes them look good online but we all know they detest the poor.


I tend to agree, I do think that there is an active segment of frequent flyers and aviation enthusiasts who genuinely don't want to see "the masses" flying. Maybe they're blinded by nostalgia, or they simply hate how crowded modern flying can be, but the amount of hatred I see for any and all LCC's on this forum is kind of ridiculous.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4243
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:18 pm

adam47150 wrote:
Noob question so please don't pounce on me, but is it possible that Indigo pulled out of talks in order to let WOW fold so that they could then swoop in and purchase the AOC and remnants at below firesale prices?


I would not be surprised if Indigo spent some time looking at the books and made the ultimate decision to let the airline go under.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8507
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: WOW Financial Discussion Thread

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:21 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
a350lover wrote:

I don't think so. The model of low fares TATL is here to stay. The issue is the economies of scale, which for players like WOW were terrible and continue to be challenging for all little airlines which have little level of cooperation or integration. We have several brands/airlines which are doing sort of "the same thing" powered by big air groups like Lufthansa (Eurowings) or IAG (LEVEL). I don't see the low fares going...


I hope you’re right. I always support the little guy and the underdogs and I’m genuinely sad it didn’t work out as I was Primera.

One good thing about it being a leased fleet and A320 type is that Icelandair can’t simply pick over the carcus and cherry pick the last pieces of meat on WOW’s bones. There’s no 737MAX, used 737-800 won’t be as easy to come by, the 757 even more difficult. It’s not like WOW can be absorbed into Icelandair which I think is good. Bringing a new type in house isn’t going to be quick and easy.


Was there overcapacity into KEF though? FI might still own some of that 20-order B738 order it did in the 2000s (these planes have the code 737-808), but again, they have no pilots qualified on the 737-800. They would have to scout the market for any secondhand B752s that freight forwarders haven't already purchased.


I would assume that the pilots at Icelandair trained for the 737MAX, should be perfectly safe to fly 737-800 after a 1 hour I-pad training. Icelandair does not own lift laying about. I assume lift will increase by moving to two banks in KEF. The frames going out to the longer destination in North America and hitting a second bank on their direct return flight. We will see 757 with 17 hours a day usage in the summer.

Icelandair had the biggest December with 12% increase of December 2018 over December 2017. January and February have brought Icelandair a 9% increase in 2019 over 2018. I expect Icelandair to considerable increase passenger numbers, but they have to look for additional lift.

It could even be that Icelandair could get an offer to overtake the leases and pilots of the WOW frames.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3428
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:35 pm

Always sad to see an airline fold. I think WOW made too many mistakes - notably expanding too much, too quickly - but it still illustrates how difficult it is to start an airline. That barrier to entry is a major issue.

Less supply TATL is not going to be good for consumers. My one hope is that Norwegian is more viable without WOW.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 323
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:42 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:

That's incredibly narrow minded and elitist. Making travel affordable for all is a positive thing. Sometimes people have no choice but need to fly, for things like family bereavements, medical treatment or relocation for jobs, etc. Maybe these people do not have much money, but surely they shouldn't be excluded from flying? Yes, in many cases they may not have sufficient "spare change" while abroad, but not all of us have that luxury.

No need to further separate the "haves" and "have nots".

While the WOW business model proved to be unsustainable, them being part of opening up the opportunity to travel to more people was a positive thing.


I don’t think you understood what I was saying. You can book a BA ticket from LHR to BOS or NYC from GBP 260 (includes even food and drinks), if this is too expensive for someone then I am really puzzled. Fares are already as low as they can get, even with legacies.

Bereavements are ‚last minute’ events, and as a result most airfares will be expensive at short notice, even LCC.


I understood that you said "And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel.". And I think that's narrow minded and elitist. And I stand by that.

BA having tickets for £260 is irrelevant. I'm also sure that LHR-NYC for £260 on BA is few and far between.

I never commented on whether fares should increase, decrease or anything. I said opening up travel to all (regardless of whether you can fork out 100eur or more) is a good thing. Prices of tickets is one aspect, limiting flying to those who can afford certain prices is completely another. Bringing in whether people can have comfort money while away is a whole other ballgame. In the elite world you might have it, in the real world alot of people don't. They should still be able to fly if they either want or need to.

If the business model can't sustain lower fares, then fair enough. And it may exclude people from being able to access travel, which is unfortunate. Excluding them because of what they can afford I think is bad form.

WOW tried, and they failed. Norwegian are trying, whether they succeed only time will tell.


Travel is already open to everyone even on legacies. Flying has never been as cheap as it is today. Hence your statement makes no sense. But the reality is there are always people who can’t afford one thing or the other.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 663
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:44 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A co-worker had bought WOW tickets about a month ago via Travelosity to go to Germany in the fall. I just told him the bad news. He isn't happy. I hope his credit card or Travelosity as bought the ticket insurance can do something about getting a refund. Still a mess for many. But I guess if the price it too low...


They should be able to call travelocity and get a refund or an exchange. Thats one of the main benefits of a travel agency. They can provide the buyer some protection for situations like this.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:49 pm

Could B6 fly to Iceland? The A321 LR could certainly do it if they are doing LHR, DUB, CDG...that would be another LCC with a decent route across the Atlantic.

Next question, is B6 a LCC?
 
wexfordflyer
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:48 pm

Re: WOW Airlines Officially Done

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:50 pm

senatorflyer wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
senatorflyer wrote:

I don’t think you understood what I was saying. You can book a BA ticket from LHR to BOS or NYC from GBP 260 (includes even food and drinks), if this is too expensive for someone then I am really puzzled. Fares are already as low as they can get, even with legacies.

Bereavements are ‚last minute’ events, and as a result most airfares will be expensive at short notice, even LCC.


I understood that you said "And in all fairness, if one can’t fork out 100 eur more for a ticket then I think he/she shouldn’t travel.". And I think that's narrow minded and elitist. And I stand by that.

BA having tickets for £260 is irrelevant. I'm also sure that LHR-NYC for £260 on BA is few and far between.

I never commented on whether fares should increase, decrease or anything. I said opening up travel to all (regardless of whether you can fork out 100eur or more) is a good thing. Prices of tickets is one aspect, limiting flying to those who can afford certain prices is completely another. Bringing in whether people can have comfort money while away is a whole other ballgame. In the elite world you might have it, in the real world alot of people don't. They should still be able to fly if they either want or need to.

If the business model can't sustain lower fares, then fair enough. And it may exclude people from being able to access travel, which is unfortunate. Excluding them because of what they can afford I think is bad form.

WOW tried, and they failed. Norwegian are trying, whether they succeed only time will tell.


Travel is already open to everyone even on legacies. Flying has never been as cheap as it is today. Hence your statement makes no sense. But the reality is there are always people who can’t afford one thing or the other.


Yes, there are people who can't afford things. That's totally different to saying they should be excluded "unless they can afford XXXeur". You still haven't given any reason to support your initial statement. Travel has never been as cheap, in part due to the like of WOW. Although it seems you would rather is wasn't open to everyone.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as it's getting quite off topic.
Come with me, there's a place I want you to see, where the leaves are dark, I've got a hiding place in central park.
 
gen2stew
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:51 pm

Travel low cost or otherwise is not a right.
When a carrier comes onto the scene with loss making prices it hurts not just the foolish investors but the established carriers who have to offer matching flights at the same or greater loss. The public and employees benefit from strong and profitable carriers with better ability for quality maintenance, training, and job security.
I don't know why blessings wear disguises. If I were a blessing, I'd run around nude!
 
B747forever
Posts: 13788
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:55 pm

Sad to see yet another carrier ceasing ops, though this one was the least surprising. Best of luck to all WW employees.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
OB1504
Posts: 3680
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: WOW Ceases Operations

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:59 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
I don't think that's necessarily it. Many of the people on the site work for airlines and as such have never paid for travel a day in their lives and as such, it's very easy to say that airfares should double and triple when you won't be directly impacted by it.


Or perhaps airline employees—like any other people—enjoy making a living wage with benefits. As it is, some airline staff in the United Stars have to go on food stamps and sell blood to get by. And those are people working for a full service airline.

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