Dieuwer wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

The question now becomes whether another crooked Scandinavian CEO will fool investors and pax alike and start another ULCC that will survive for a couple of years before folding.

I don’t think calling Skuli crooked is fair. Sure, he lost alot of money for his investors, but he also put all his personal money into the company and has almost nothing left after the bankruptcy. His reasons for starting WOW were idealistic and came from a good place. It just wasn’t executed correctly, and the A330s, especially the A330neo’s, along with all the statements about becoming “not just bigger than Icelandair but bigger than SAS”, show he became overambitious.

Really? How about Primera Air. Another Scandinavian airline that folded recently. How about Norwegian? Not in the best financial shape either.

Note how I said “calling Skuli”, as in Skuli Mogensen CEO and founder of WOW air. Primera is a different ballgame, especially as more facts come out after their bankruptcy. Norwegian isn’t exactly crooked, and one can’t forget they’re an old operation that used to operate F50s and 733s in and out of Norway. However, in recent years it seems they’ve gone in a bit over their head. Having said that, I hope they survive.

hvusslax wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Virgin Atlantic just posted on their Facebook page they're offering
special " Rescue fares" to WW pax stranded by the shutdown.

Great move by VS. What they lose in short term revenue
will be made up by long term goodwill

Icelandair and Wizz have also offered such fares. Icelandair has also offered stranded WOW employees abroad free tickets to get back home.

That's good to hear as well

Sooner787 wrote:

Virgin Atlantic just posted on their Facebook page they're offering
special " Rescue fares" to WW pax stranded by the shutdown.

Great move by VS. What they lose in short term revenue
will be made up by long term goodwill

Lose a little on every seat but make it up with volume. It's worked brilliantly for years. WOW is the current poster child for said strategy.

WOW once again established that the longhaul market can quite easily be stimulated with non-compensatory fares.

The trick is to be able to accomplish this with compensatory fares.

Easy to talk about, very difficult to achieve.

Did Wow have at any time of their history crews based out of KEF?

a350lover wrote:

Did Wow have at any time of their history crews based out of KEF?

The only time I know they had crews based anywhere else than Iceland was during the short lived India route. The FAs on that route were based in DEL.

a350lover wrote:

Did Wow have at any time of their history crews based out of KEF?

Yes, from the first day to the last.

Cabin crew from startup 2012, cockpit crew since they got their AOC in 2014 IIRC.

hvusslax wrote:

a350lover wrote:

Did Wow have at any time of their history crews based out of KEF?

The only time I know they had crews based anywhere else than Iceland was during the short lived India route. The FAs on that route were based in DEL.

That's what I thought when looking at some pictures of the route launch. Interesting move...That lasted little.

I wonder if they ever thought of replicating somehow the model which Norwegian started with via the BKK base, via DEL crews.

How many slots did they have at key airports such as FRA, CDG,AMS?

Dieuwer wrote:

The question now becomes whether another crooked Scandinavian CEO will fool investors and pax alike and start another ULCC that will survive for a couple of years before folding.

Why do you talk about crooked? Starting a business, putting ones own money up and failing is crocked according to your definition?

I hope that JetBlue will take advantage of this, and take the extra gates/capacity at KEF to make a small scissor hub.

It's interesting to me as someone not in the industry that an immediate shutdown is how this played out here. Couldn't Wow have looked down the road and realized the end was near and set a date in the near future--a day or two or a week even--when operations would stop? Some people would still be stranded, but not as many as they have left in a predicament today. Perhaps announcing an imminent shutdown is worse since it is likely cause all sorts of panic, anger, etc., that ends up burning what little money is left even faster. Or is this the norm?

SRQKEF wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

It just wasn’t executed correctly, and the A330s, especially the A330neo’s, along with all the statements about becoming “not just bigger than Icelandair but bigger than SAS”, show he became overambitious.

Overambitious? I think the word you’re looking for is “delusional.”

AirCalSNA wrote:

It's interesting to me as someone not in the industry that an immediate shutdown is how this played out here. Couldn't Wow have looked down the road and realized the end was near and set a date in the near future--a day or two or a week even--when operations would stop? Some people would still be stranded, but not as many as they have left in a predicament today. Perhaps announcing an imminent shutdown is worse since it is likely cause all sorts of panic, anger, etc., that ends up burning what little money is left even faster. Or is this the norm?

Yeah, this is pretty much the norm, for the reasons you speculate. It does an airline no good to confirm that they are in trouble, which will cause passengers to panic and go elsewhere, and thus speeding up your demise even more than it would have been otherwise. So they have to put a good face forward and assure the public up until the bitter end - just in case a new investor deal can save the company.

Gulfstream500 wrote:

I hope that JetBlue will take advantage of this, and take the extra gates/capacity at KEF to make a small scissor hub.

Can US airlines fly Europe to Europe? I thought they had to start or end in the US?

klm617 wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

a350lover wrote:

Considering only 1 out of 10 planes is at home.... does anyone know what's the current situation of the crews down route?

FI is flying all stranded WOW crews home for free today/tonight.

Priceless first they help put WOW Air out of business and cause these people to lose their jobs and then fly them home for free very tacky.

Right. Should they have charged them normal premium for last minute ad-hoc service?
I'm sure you would be the first to complain on here how bad they are in taking advantage of a bad situation making big money over those poor passengers.

Jshank83 wrote:

Gulfstream500 wrote:

I hope that JetBlue will take advantage of this, and take the extra gates/capacity at KEF to make a small scissor hub.

Can US airlines fly Europe to Europe? I thought they had to start or end in the US?

Yes, just not within the same country.

Though the thought that JetBlue "should take advantage of this" is absurdity.

akb88 wrote:

And it took Icelandair all of 10 seconds to increase their fares by 100%

If those fares were not sustainable for WOW, what makes you believe they would be sustainable for FI?

Gulfstream500 wrote:

I hope that JetBlue will take advantage of this, and take the extra gates/capacity at KEF to make a small scissor hub.

They already codeshare on all FI flights from BOS/JFK/EWR/TPA/MCO, so they kind of already have a scissor hub at KEF via that.

lowfareair wrote:

Crazy if it is approved - I think this will put Norwegian as the last independent ULCC with a decent network across the Atlantic (for now).

The most interesting this is that it values Wow at about 1/19th of Icelandair (WOW shareholders and debtholders would get 5.4% of the combined company) - is WOW really in that much financial trouble relative to Icelandair?

I'm interested in why you think its crazy if approved? I'm not from that region so on the outside it would seem like a good thing for WOW and its employees and stockholders?

voiceofgoa wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

It just wasn’t executed correctly, and the A330s, especially the A330neo’s, along with all the statements about becoming “not just bigger than Icelandair but bigger than SAS”, show he became overambitious.

Overambitious? I think the word you’re looking for is “delusional.”

I agree, but his intentions were never disingenous.

SoCalFlyer wrote:

How many slots did they have at key airports such as FRA, CDG,AMS?

2x daily at each, a turn around 10am-12pm and another around 7pm-9pm. I think the only airport of those that really is slot constrained is AMS, although FRA could be as well.

PW100 wrote:

akb88 wrote:

And it took Icelandair all of 10 seconds to increase their fares by 100%

If those fares were not sustainable for WOW, what makes you believe they would be sustainable for FI?

This kind of thinking that air travel should be borderline free and that airlines are evil and shouldn't make any money makes me scratch my head sometime. I started traveling 24 years ago and airfares are close to the same and cheaper on lots of routes. I can fly FC to pretty much anywhere in the USA first class for under 1k. Small, medium and large airports alike.

SoCalFlyer wrote:

How many slots did they have at key airports such as FRA, CDG,AMS?

At most, it was 2x daily. They operated out of Terminal 1 at CDG. They gave up their slot at LGW in favor of STN in an effort to save cash. Obviously, it was unsuccessful.

jimbo737 wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Virgin Atlantic just posted on their Facebook page they're offering
special " Rescue fares" to WW pax stranded by the shutdown.

Great move by VS. What they lose in short term revenue
will be made up by long term goodwill

Lose a little on every seat but make it up with volume. It's worked brilliantly for years. WOW is the current poster child for said strategy.

WOW once again established that the longhaul market can quite easily be stimulated with non-compensatory fares.

The trick is to be able to accomplish this with compensatory fares.

Easy to talk about, very difficult to achieve.

I had to laugh when I read this. My first boss in the grocery business, some 50 years ago, used to say something very similar - "We lose money on every sale but we make it up in volume." Except that my old boss made money on every sale.

klm617 wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

a350lover wrote:

Considering only 1 out of 10 planes is at home.... does anyone know what's the current situation of the crews down route?

FI is flying all stranded WOW crews home for free today/tonight.

Priceless first they help put WOW Air out of business and cause these people to lose their jobs and then fly them home for free very tacky.

What?!?!?! How did they help put WW out of business? How did they cause anyone to lose their jobs?? And please explain how it's tacky that FI is going to fly the crew members home... FOR FREE?!?!? I mean I read your posts about your beloved DTW and the horrible, mean Delta but what planet do you reside on??

MAH4546 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Gulfstream500 wrote:

I hope that JetBlue will take advantage of this, and take the extra gates/capacity at KEF to make a small scissor hub.

Can US airlines fly Europe to Europe? I thought they had to start or end in the US?

Yes, just not within the same country.

Though the thought that JetBlue "should take advantage of this" is absurdity.

Actually, this isnt true. To fly within Europe, an airline has to be owned 50% by European investors. U2 and/or FR have this issue on Brexit and one of them is right on the line. So B6 could not fly within Europe, though maybe Iceland-Europe is theoretically possible as Iceland is only part of the EEA, not the EU

MAH4546 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Gulfstream500 wrote:

I hope that JetBlue will take advantage of this, and take the extra gates/capacity at KEF to make a small scissor hub.

Can US airlines fly Europe to Europe? I thought they had to start or end in the US?

Yes, just not within the same country.

Though the thought that JetBlue "should take advantage of this" is absurdity.

Ok now Jetblue flying to Europe is imminent!

klm617 wrote:

N383SW wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Priceless first they help put WOW Air out of business and cause these people to lose their jobs and then fly them home for free very tacky.

What?!?!?! How did they help put WW out of business? How did they cause anyone to lose their jobs?? And please explain how it's tacky that FI is going to fly the crew members home... FOR FREE?!?!? I mean I read your posts about your beloved DTW and the horrible, mean Delta but what planet do you reside on??

Icelandair should have kept their nose out. They had no intention of helping WOW and kept them on a string and then when they saw the chance to capture all the summer traffic for themselves they pulled the plug.

Just so you know, it was WOW that called FI with a desperate plea for help. Twice. Not the other way around. So no, FI was never keeping WOW on a string. Both those times FI did their due diligence in a matter of days, and both times they unfortunately didn’t see any way the risk was worth it. One can maybe argue that Indigo Partners kept WOW on a string, but in reality the reason for WOW’s downfall is only WOW itself.

Dieuwer wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

The question now becomes whether another crooked Scandinavian CEO will fool investors and pax alike and start another ULCC that will survive for a couple of years before folding.

I don’t think calling Skuli crooked is fair. Sure, he lost alot of money for his investors, but he also put all his personal money into the company and has almost nothing left after the bankruptcy. His reasons for starting WOW were idealistic and came from a good place. It just wasn’t executed correctly, and the A330s, especially the A330neo’s, along with all the statements about becoming “not just bigger than Icelandair but bigger than SAS”, show he became overambitious.

Really? How about Primera Air. Another Scandinavian airline that folded recently. How about Norwegian? Not in the best financial shape either.

Norwegian has assets though. 10 Dreamliners (3 B788s and 7 B789s) of 34 Boeing 787s are owned, and 103 of 129 Boeing 737 aircraft (92 B738s, and 11 B38M) currently delivered are owned. The MAX 8 grounding has increased the value of its owned Boeing 737-800 aircraft. If Norwegian needs cash, it can enter into sale-leaseback deals. (Norwegian's headquarters are technically leased, but the lessor is majority-owned by Norwegian's CEO.) Primera Air's entire fleet was leased, as was WOW air's fleet.

The MAX grounding has delayed the sale of 6 Boeing 737-800 aircraft, but Norwegian could get more money by putting planes up for dry lease once the grounding ends (LATAM Airlines Group has been doing this, dry-leasing out both excess A320 and A350 capacity). That's a potential gold mine for Arctic Aviation Assets (a Norwegian company).

ELBOB wrote:

okjet wrote:

Now official, WW is over

WOW Air was not an IATA member so referring to them as WW is incorrect.

Their flights were listed as "WWnnn" on the relevant flight tracker sites, so I don't see how this is incorrect.

akb88 wrote:

Icelander here too. Just booked flights to NY this morning at prices way higher than few days ago when I checked. Should have booked then, but oh well.

An instant reduction of WW's 200 available seats per day can quickly ramp up the demand of FI's remaining 350-450 daily seats. Including from those who lost their WW seat. Supply and demand needs to regain its balance.

At least you had the option of checking Delta fares and United (if flying during the summer season) to compare against the evil Icelandair *typed-tounge-in-cheek" (nothing amusing about the demise of WW though).

Detroit313 wrote:

Norwegian next please!

WOW folding is likely the salvation of Norwegian TATL.

klm617 wrote:

senatorflyer wrote:

klm617 wrote:

If you live outside the major markets travel is outragesly expensive.

Detroit to London for GBP 430 with AA/BA, not exactly outragesly expensive. You could have it 20 pounds cheaper if don’t want to fly AA.

Looks like AA might be my new airline of choice in the future.

Lucky them! I'm sure they are raising fares as we speak just to make sure that doesn't happen.

grbauc wrote:

PW100 wrote:

akb88 wrote:

And it took Icelandair all of 10 seconds to increase their fares by 100%

If those fares were not sustainable for WOW, what makes you believe they would be sustainable for FI?

This kind of thinking that air travel should be borderline free and that airlines are evil and shouldn't make any money makes me scratch my head sometime. I started traveling 24 years ago and airfares are close to the same and cheaper on lots of routes. I can fly FC to pretty much anywhere in the USA first class for under 1k. Small, medium and large airports alike.

Are you talking about domestic USA ....flying so called FC in the USA is nothing more than a pathetic joke compared to the rest of the airlines offering FC. A hamburger on a New York Miami flight is hardly what the rest of the world calls 1st class.

Think UA might want the 321 to reopen JFK?

Who will pick up the slack besides Icelandair? They are light on aircraft, so it won't be easy for them. WOW showed that a few markets can support more capacity.

I think certain U.S. cities could support service to KEF like 3x weekly with that as the destination. Some places have the O & D to make it work. I would love to see a U.S. LCC or UlCC pick up the slack

Or perhaps Norwegian. They are short aircraft at the moment and not flying several of their MAX routes, but can they legally fly KEF to USA?

SRQKEF wrote:

klm617 wrote:

N383SW wrote:

What?!?!?! How did they help put WW out of business? How did they cause anyone to lose their jobs?? And please explain how it's tacky that FI is going to fly the crew members home... FOR FREE?!?!? I mean I read your posts about your beloved DTW and the horrible, mean Delta but what planet do you reside on??

Icelandair should have kept their nose out. They had no intention of helping WOW and kept them on a string and then when they saw the chance to capture all the summer traffic for themselves they pulled the plug.

Just so you know, it was WOW that called FI with a desperate plea for help. Twice. Not the other way around. So no, FI was never keeping WOW on a string. Both those times FI did their due diligence in a matter of days, and both times they unfortunately didn’t see any way the risk was worth it. One can maybe argue that Indigo Partners kept WOW on a string, but in reality the reason for WOW’s downfall is only WOW itself.

Blaming Icelandair for WOW’s failure is like blaming Delta for the collapse of Pan Am.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

I don’t think calling Skuli crooked is fair. Sure, he lost alot of money for his investors, but he also put all his personal money into the company and has almost nothing left after the bankruptcy. His reasons for starting WOW were idealistic and came from a good place. It just wasn’t executed correctly, and the A330s, especially the A330neo’s, along with all the statements about becoming “not just bigger than Icelandair but bigger than SAS”, show he became overambitious.

Really? How about Primera Air. Another Scandinavian airline that folded recently. How about Norwegian? Not in the best financial shape either.

Norwegian has assets though. 10 Dreamliners (3 B788s and 7 B789s) of 34 Boeing 787s are owned, and 103 of 129 Boeing 737 aircraft (92 B738s, and 11 B38M) currently delivered are owned. The MAX 8 grounding has increased the value of its owned Boeing 737-800 aircraft. If Norwegian needs cash, it can enter into sale-leaseback deals. (Norwegian's headquarters are technically leased, but the lessor is majority-owned by Norwegian's CEO.) Primera Air's entire fleet was leased, as was WOW air's fleet.

The MAX grounding has delayed the sale of 6 Boeing 737-800 aircraft, but Norwegian could get more money by putting planes up for dry lease once the grounding ends (LATAM Airlines Group has been doing this, dry-leasing out both excess A320 and A350 capacity). That's a potential gold mine for Arctic Aviation Assets (a Norwegian company).

Yes Norwegian has assets but they are already collaterals for their huge debt. So it doesn't make much of a difference if they do a sale and leaseback.
On the balance sheet you swap aircraft for cash, but your debt remains unless you use the cash to repay it. Sure, you secure short-term cash flow but you're going to lose even more money because your capital cost increases and whomever is going to lease it back to you will charge you top dollars for your high risk lease.
It's one thing to do a paper sale and leaseback when an aircraft is ordered new by a blue chip airline, it's another when a cash-strapped ailing airline does it on an owned aircraft to secure short-term cash flow.

Here is a clip of the last flight in and out of BWI - using A320 NEO... looks like it left nearly empty with the short takeoff roll.
https://youtu.be/0k-SaluUnLs

Too bad WoW could not get financing, they provided another option to Europe and to Iceland.

Very, very interesting

This is truly unfortunate, but many observers of the airline industry saw this coming. While it may be difficult to sustain transatlantic flight operations on low airfares, WW certainly helped make travel much more affordable to many people who would have otherwise not been able to travel/fly. I am pretty puzzled by some comments on here that seem to suggest or imply that the collapse of Wow air is somehow a good thing for the airline industry. I fail to see how this can ever be a good thing. Job losses aside, the outcome of the demise of WW will most certainly result in higher transatlantic airfares.

spinkid wrote:

Who will pick up the slack besides Icelandair? They are light on aircraft, so it won't be easy for them. WOW showed that a few markets can support more capacity.

I think certain U.S. cities could support service to KEF like 3x weekly with that as the destination. Some places have the O & D to make it work. I would love to see a U.S. LCC or UlCC pick up the slack

Or perhaps Norwegian. They are short aircraft at the moment and not flying several of their MAX routes, but can they legally fly KEF to USA?

Yes they can legally do that, because Iceland and Norway play with EU rules in aviation. They are part of EU-USA open skies deal.

FlyingElvii wrote:

Detroit313 wrote:

Norwegian next please!

WOW folding is likely the salvation of Norwegian TATL.

Could be helpful for Norwegian, but they need to be careful. They recently asked for more money from investors as they have come to the conclusion that they are growing too rapidly and need to get their yields up on the routes they already fly.

They are going to axe most of TATL routes out of EDI, but after the WOW failure, things might change. Interesting times ahead........

With SAS ordering A321LR's now, I hope they will commence more TATL routes.

Seems like Skyteam will benefit the most.

Iluvtofly wrote:

grbauc wrote:

PW100 wrote:

If those fares were not sustainable for WOW, what makes you believe they would be sustainable for FI?

This kind of thinking that air travel should be borderline free and that airlines are evil and shouldn't make any money makes me scratch my head sometime. I started traveling 24 years ago and airfares are close to the same and cheaper on lots of routes. I can fly FC to pretty much anywhere in the USA first class for under 1k. Small, medium and large airports alike.

Are you talking about domestic USA ....flying so called FC in the USA is nothing more than a pathetic joke compared to the rest of the airlines offering FC. A hamburger on a New York Miami flight is hardly what the rest of the world calls 1st class.

Wait, what? Have you flown FC elsewhere?

Europe: "Let's block a middle seat for the first three rows and call that first class"
Latin America: Many airlines don't even have FC
Asia: Old, tired FC hard product on most airlines I have flown there

So compared to "the rest of the airlines", Delta domestic FC is a joke? Great! Stay away and I'll keep enjoying the unlimited free upgrades as a DL Diamond.

spinkid wrote:

Who will pick up the slack besides Icelandair? They are light on aircraft, so it won't be easy for them. WOW showed that a few markets can support more capacity.

I think certain U.S. cities could support service to KEF like 3x weekly with that as the destination. Some places have the O & D to make it work. I would love to see a U.S. LCC or UlCC pick up the slack

Or perhaps Norwegian. They are short aircraft at the moment and not flying several of their MAX routes, but can they legally fly KEF to USA?

There is no slack to pick up that is profitable. A bubble burst in a sense. Fares needs to go up to profitable levels and markets will thus shrink. The traffic that Wow was carrying was artificial. Also no US ULCC is able to serve Iceland.

The demise of WOW would make the more prudent among us to think twice about booking on Norwegian for the summer and beyond.