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InnsbruckFlyer
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Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:19 pm

Anybody know anything about Pan Am's former European operations? I'm given to understand that they flew 737-200s and ATRs in Europe. What were their routes, and where did the crews fly out of? Were the crews American or Europe? Were these flights only for connecting passengers, or for anyone? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Greets,

InnsbruckFlyer
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BobbyPSP
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:22 pm

There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.
 
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STT757
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:36 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Anybody know anything about Pan Am's former European operations? I'm given to understand that they flew 737-200s and ATRs in Europe. What were their routes, and where did the crews fly out of? Were the crews American or Europe? Were these flights only for connecting passengers, or for anyone? Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Greets,

InnsbruckFlyer


You can start with timetables:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785intro.html

And route maps:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102989.html
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:54 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Anybody know anything about Pan Am's former European operations? I'm given to understand that they flew 737-200s and ATRs in Europe.


As well as B727s, A310s and perhaps, only perhaps, even A300s.

But as others have said, I encourage you to do a search in the database here since A.net has been around for 20 years and many people, especially in early years, were around when Pan Am was still alive, thus many topics about it have been posted.
I have discovered that once people are truly captivated in their ignorance, they are generally unwilling to let the facts interfere.
(Rick Drury's Flightlines "Paychecks", Airways April 2003)
 
jfk777
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:47 pm

Most of what you are asking about is the internal German flights to and from Berlin. When Germany was divided AF, BA and PA flew to Berlin not Lufthansa. PA also had some LHR to Europe flights.
 
zrs70
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:13 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"
18 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2018
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:15 pm

Pan Am flew so called feeder flights between various airports in Europe to other European airports in order to fill up their larger Boeing 747's that flew over to the USA. There were feeder flights from Oslo in Norway to London, England in order to fill up their Boeing 747 onward to New York for instance. They flew Boeing 737's, ATR 42's and Boeing 727-200's. From Norway they also flew in old times more direct to the US with Boeing 707 and Dc-8's.
 
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United787
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:25 pm

STT757 wrote:


Interesting that PanAm's network in Europe looked as extensive as it's network in the US, maybe even more so...
 
Crackshot
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:31 pm

The infamous Flight 103 (Lockerbie bombing) originated in Frankfurt as a 727 IIRC.

TWA did something similar, didn't it? They had 727's flying Euro ops, they were a popular target for hijackers (being an airline from the Great Satan that flew to the little Satan). Were they feeder flights as well?
 
Moosefire
Posts: 31
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:57 pm

zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"


Amen. Agreed on all counts
C-17 and MD-10/11 Pilot
 
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cathay747
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:30 pm

zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"


:rotfl: at your examples! But you left out "Why no nonstop from XXX to HNL?" or "Why doesn't XX fly from Zanesville to Zanzibar?"

Agreed, at least for this topic, I don't feel this comes up terribly often, and frankly, searching on this site is not the easiest thing to do.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:43 pm

zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"


Literally a couple of weeks ago this was discussed, both UA and DL taking over PA routes.

Either search or google.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:48 pm

Crackshot wrote:
The infamous Flight 103 (Lockerbie bombing) originated in Frankfurt as a 727 IIRC.

TWA did something similar, didn't it? They had 727's flying Euro ops, they were a popular target for hijackers (being an airline from the Great Satan that flew to the little Satan). Were they feeder flights as well?


In the pre-deregulation days of the U.S., if you were traveling to Europe, you were either going TWA, Pan Am, or the European airline of the country you were heading to. This was also pre-alliance days, and both Pan Am and TWA took you all the way to exotic destinations, even if it involved multiple stops, such as CAI-ATH-FCO-CDG-JFK-STL-XXX.

Also, until the Unification of Germany was completed, the Four Powers Agreement limited flights from West Berlin to carriers from the victors of WWII: Britain, France, and the U.S. Technically, the Soviet Union could have flown from West Berlin, but chose not to. Had there been a commercial airport within the boundaries of East Berlin, the same restrictions would have applied; however, because SXF was outside the boundaries of "Greater Berlin", there were no restrictions.

Since then:

* German unification
* Tear-down of the Iron Curtain
* Loss of monopoly of TWA and Pan Am
* The rise of the European Union & Schengen zone
* The decline of travel agents and package tours
* LCC's and ULCC's free to take any routes they feel they can fly.
* Airline alliances that make intra-European segments unnecessary (and too costly!)

An interesting topic that I haven't seen much discussion on recently - thanks for sharing!
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:14 pm

cathay747 wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"


:rotfl: at your examples! But you left out "Why no nonstop from XXX to HNL?" or "Why doesn't XX fly from Zanesville to Zanzibar?"

Agreed, at least for this topic, I don't feel this comes up terribly often, and frankly, searching on this site is not the easiest thing to do.


I agree. Not sure why some topics are discussed oveR and over in multiple threads, but this one is a problem

Oh, and we forgot the “bring back the 757 threads” and the “did United every fly NY to HKG and NRT”@

To answer the original question, they had connecting flights to European destinations from both LHR and FRA. As other have stated, the FRA operations were mostly Germany-centric, but I believe the LHR routes included AMS, BRU, OSL, FRA, TXL, MUC, HAM, etc.

On the question of TWA, they had a similar connecting point at CDG where I believe they offered service to GVA, ATH, CAI and a few others
 
Max Q
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:09 am

zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"




I couldn’t agree more, the beauty of A.Net
is the diversity of knowledge and interesting posts that come with that


If you don’t like a subject because it’s been discussed before don’t
click on it, pretty simple


But trying to suppress other members
contributions because they don’t fit in
your narrow view of suitable topics is
inappropriate


There’s always another ‘take’ or informative
opinion even when a subject is regularly
revisited
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Jalap
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:21 am

gwrudolph wrote:
To answer the original question, they had connecting flights to European destinations from both LHR and FRA. As other have stated, the FRA operations were mostly Germany-centric, but I believe the LHR routes included AMS, BRU, OSL, FRA, TXL, MUC, HAM, etc.

On the question of TWA, they had a similar connecting point at CDG where I believe they offered service to GVA, ATH, CAI and a few others

And when PanAm disappeared, we saw United and Delta 727's doing intra-European flying. Briefly, beause it didn't take long for Delta and United to expand their European network with direct flights so feeding with the 727's was no longer necessary.
 
klm617
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:05 am

Max Q wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"




I couldn’t agree more, the beauty of A.Net
is the diversity of knowledge and interesting posts that come with that


If you don’t like a subject because it’s been discussed before don’t
click on it, pretty simple


But trying to suppress other members
contributions because they don’t fit in
your narrow view of suitable topics is
inappropriate


There’s always another ‘take’ or informative
opinion even when a subject is regularly
revisited


Amen and thank you for this post.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Jetsgo
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:28 am

BobbyPSP wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"


Literally a couple of weeks ago this was discussed, both UA and DL taking over PA routes.

Either search or google.


298 posts in 14 years. Who are you? Sorry, but you don’t have enough weight around here to be telling a new member “search or Google” their questions.
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
soflaflyer
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:21 am

cathay747 wrote:
and frankly, searching on this site is not the easiest thing to do.


The search function on A.net is essentially worthless to put it bluntly...
 
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OA412
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:45 am

Most of PAs intra-Europe routes connected various outstations with FRA, although they did fly some intra-Europe from LHR as well (BRU and German cities come to mind). Most of the larger European cities were connected nonstop to the US. It was mainly cities such as BUD, OTP, ATH, and IST that were served exclusively via FRA.

Fun fact, TW and PA had a sort of gentleman’s agreement in place for several decades that saw each of them serving as the exclusive US carrier to certain cities. For instance, TW had served ATH since the late 40s, but PA didn’t connect ATH to FRA until 1985.

The history of PA and TW in Europe is really fascinating. The networks are a relic of a bygone era that will never return. I was around for the tail end of PAs existence, but it’s pretty neat to be able to say I flew them. In the mid 1980s, my family and I connected through Frankfurt, West Germany. The airport was chock full of PA 747s, 727s, and 737s.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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mats
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:44 am

There are several ways to look at this:

1. Tags and one-stop flights
Pan Am operated many flights within Europe that were one-stop. For example, New York/JFK - Oslo - Stockholm. This was an A310, which was the same aircraft through to Stockholm.
In many instances, the destination of the second leg varied based on the day of the week.

In other cases, the tag was a change-of-gauge, particularly to a 727 or 737.
Pan Am 103, sadly, was a change-of-gauge service. Flight 103A flew from Frankfurt to London/Heathrow on a 727; flight 103 flew onward from London to New York and San Francisco with a 747.

2. Hubs
Frankfurt was a Pan Am hub. The hub served as a feeder for transatlantic flights (Istanbul-Frankfurt-USA, for example), but it also served passengers who were flying entirely within Europe. This was mostly for flights within what was then the German Federal Republic (West Germany.)

US, French, and American carriers were allowed to fly between Berlin and West Germany while Lufthansa could not. As a result, Pan Am became the dominant carrier from Berlin/Tegel to the West.

Pan Am also served Frankfurt from Pakistan, India, Turkey, Kenya, etc. Flights from Tel Aviv, however, operated by way of Paris/Orly.

London/Heathrow served as a smaller hub, but it was to feed transatlantic flights (some services from Germany and Scandinavia transited London).

3. Pan Am Express
There was an Express operation as part of the Intra-German Service (IGS). Destinations like Bremen and Kiel were served by Pan Am Express turboprops.


Delta Air Lines maintained many of these routes when they purchased Pan Am's tranatlantic network. There was a substantial Delta hub in Frankfurt until it was deemed to be unprofitable.

United operated smaller hubs at London/Heathrow and Paris/Charles de Gaulle. There were United flights from London to Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, and more. They operated from Paris to Athens and Geneva, among others.

TWA's European services were more spread out. These included "triangle" 727 flights between Rome, Athens, Tel Aviv, and other destinations.

There are a long list of reasons that these flights are no longer viable:
1. Cost of maintaining employee bases and aircraft in Europe
2. Availability of aircraft for like the 787 for "long, thin" routes
3. Expansion of services by European carriers to many more US destinations as well as codesharing
4. Security requirements imposed by the US government for one-stop flights to the USA
5. Codesharing and alliances for more expeditious transfers in European airports
 
Max Q
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:59 am

mats wrote:
There are several ways to look at this:

1. Tags and one-stop flights
Pan Am operated many flights within Europe that were one-stop. For example, New York/JFK - Oslo - Stockholm. This was an A310, which was the same aircraft through to Stockholm.
In many instances, the destination of the second leg varied based on the day of the week.

In other cases, the tag was a change-of-gauge, particularly to a 727 or 737.
Pan Am 103, sadly, was a change-of-gauge service. Flight 103A flew from Frankfurt to London/Heathrow on a 727; flight 103 flew onward from London to New York and San Francisco with a 747.

2. Hubs
Frankfurt was a Pan Am hub. The hub served as a feeder for transatlantic flights (Istanbul-Frankfurt-USA, for example), but it also served passengers who were flying entirely within Europe. This was mostly for flights within what was then the German Federal Republic (West Germany.)

US, French, and American carriers were allowed to fly between Berlin and West Germany while Lufthansa could not. As a result, Pan Am became the dominant carrier from Berlin/Tegel to the West.

Pan Am also served Frankfurt from Pakistan, India, Turkey, Kenya, etc. Flights from Tel Aviv, however, operated by way of Paris/Orly.

London/Heathrow served as a smaller hub, but it was to feed transatlantic flights (some services from Germany and Scandinavia transited London).

3. Pan Am Express
There was an Express operation as part of the Intra-German Service (IGS). Destinations like Bremen and Kiel were served by Pan Am Express turboprops.


Delta Air Lines maintained many of these routes when they purchased Pan Am's tranatlantic network. There was a substantial Delta hub in Frankfurt until it was deemed to be unprofitable.

United operated smaller hubs at London/Heathrow and Paris/Charles de Gaulle. There were United flights from London to Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, and more. They operated from Paris to Athens and Geneva, among others.

TWA's European services were more spread out. These included "triangle" 727 flights between Rome, Athens, Tel Aviv, and other destinations.

There are a long list of reasons that these flights are no longer viable:
1. Cost of maintaining employee bases and aircraft in Europe
2. Availability of aircraft for like the 787 for "long, thin" routes
3. Expansion of services by European carriers to many more US destinations as well as codesharing
4. Security requirements imposed by the US government for one-stop flights to the USA
5. Codesharing and alliances for more expeditious transfers in European airports



Interesting and a good analysis



I’d just disagree with one of your points
European ‘long and thin’ routes were taken
care of decades ago by 767 and 757
aircraft, the former has more than adequate performance and the latter usually does to fly these routes


It’s not like the 787 is finally the solution
to these markets, it’s impressive range
(except for the -10 version which is more suited to larger cities) is better used on
longer thin Pacific routes
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:02 am

Love this thread. Learning a great deal. Despite being born late 1980s, not many of us (especially millennial and Gen Y) know about Pan Am, TWA and many other great airlines which have gone bellied up. Thanks OP.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
PanHAM
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:41 am

Well, the BER ops was an Airline within the Airline. I the days before 1990 the sovereignty pver Berlin was with the Allied Forces.. Each had their own Airport, THF for the US, Gatow for the British and TXL for the French. TXL had a daily PA707 to JFK,and AF ad three daily Caravelle flights via DUS to Paris.. The rest was concentrated on THF, later was moved to TXL as well.
One of the busiest routes was THF to HAJ. the shortest and cheapest way to fly from Berlin to the Federal Republic of Germany. PanAm shared the intra German flights/Destination with BEA , both of them making THF their base. For PA, FRA and LHR where European hubs, Berlin was the base.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:00 am

A few things that haven’t been mentioned here regarding the PA flights to and from TXL/THF and FRA before 1990:

1. Pan Am (and BA/AF) we’re conducting their flights using a loop hole in the agreements of the allied powers over the status of Berlin where military supply flights were allowed through 3 tightly limited air corridors (1 to Hamburg, 1 to Hannover, 1 to Frankfurt at an altitude of IIRC ca 2-3000m) -> PA’s flights to NUE and MUC had to use the FRA corridor and then make a sharp left turn and all flights would maintain the limited altitude until they reached West German airspace)

2. PA and BA (BEA in the 70s) divided up the intra-German routes from West Berlin, PA got MUC, NUE, FRA, HAM, BRE while BA got DUS, CGN, HAJ (?) and STR was shared between the two, while AF only had a few flights from TXL to DUS as tag ins to their DUS-Paris flights)

3. PA had one odd route when they introduced TXL-ZRH, which obviously did not fall into the military supply flights category, I heard that those flights required the pilots to announce these flights to Soviet ATC as flights to FRA and then changed their destination in flight once they reached West German air space.

4. don’t forget that PA‘s around-the-world flights included LHR and FRA (and may be other European cities such as ATH and IST) connecting these cities with destinations such as THR, KHI, BOM, DEL, BKK, HGK, HND, LAX, HNL, JFK.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 957
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:28 am

In the late 80’s I flew
HAM -TXL PA A310..54 DM... about £18
TXL-HAM PA 732 same cost
LHR-FRA-TXL-FRA-LHR PA 722 about £80 iirc

Great Flights...
 
Noshow
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 am

The west german government subsidized those flights as many people could not just pass through east germany because they could have been arrested there or were banned for political reasons.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:27 am

zrs70 wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
There’s tons of info right here on A.net, no reason to start another thread.


Why is it that some topics are allowed to come up over and over without snark, yet others (like this) get shot down?

Just because someone discussed it in a thread 8 years ago, does that mean that another thread can't be started?

I find this topic (one that is fact based) more interesting than the dozens of new posts like:

"What if Eastern were still around, would they be flying the 787?"
"If Dayton were still a hub, what would the nonstop destinations be?"
"If NW and Piedmont had merged, would there be nonstop service to Mars by now?"


:checkmark: :checkmark:

Agree. We have some of most boring stuff going on forever (e.g. 'What's happening in Crapville") and lots of silly 'what ifs', and then we get snarky with a genuine and interesting question....
 
bx737
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:14 am

I remember being astounded at seeing a Pan Am 737 in Palma in 1987. It was the only Pan Am aircraft I ever saw. I think it was operating a Berlin flight.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:14 am

I would not call the 4 powers Agreement a loophole. The air corridors served as an Access to Berlin which became important in the days of the Blockade. Whuch started the first large scale air cargo Transport Event in the world. The mother of modern logistics.. The Russians got the lesson that the western allied powers would do everything to Keep Berlin open.

The limited height which the flights where allowed based on the then available Equipment.

HAM and HAJ had Service from both PA and BEA, BEA also had flights to LHR, isiaööy bac1-11 500
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
chiad
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:29 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Pan Am flew so called feeder flights between various airports in Europe to other European airports in order to fill up their larger Boeing 747's that flew over to the USA. There were feeder flights from Oslo in Norway to London, England in order to fill up their Boeing 747 onward to New York for instance. They flew Boeing 737's, ATR 42's and Boeing 727-200's. From Norway they also flew in old times more direct to the US with Boeing 707 and Dc-8's.


They also flew the A310 directly between OSL and JFK. The route was later taken over by Delta me thinks.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 312
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:27 pm

United787 wrote:
STT757 wrote:


Interesting that PanAm's network in Europe looked as extensive as it's network in the US, maybe even more so...


Even more interesting -- for most of its history, until ~1979, Pan Am was actually banned from serving US domestic flights. As the joke went, Pan Am was allowed to serve any country on Earth, except one country -- its own.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
United787 wrote:
STT757 wrote:


Interesting that PanAm's network in Europe looked as extensive as it's network in the US, maybe even more so...


Even more interesting -- for most of its history, until ~1979, Pan Am was actually banned from serving US domestic flights. As the joke went, Pan Am was allowed to serve any country on Earth, except one country -- its own.


Actually that isn't totally true. Pan Am couldn't serve flights in the Continental US. They flew domestic passengers to HNL and FAI from the mainland (and for a short time ITO).

Pan Am had a fleet of 727-100s to fly the Germany routes and to Berlin in the 1970s. Given they were a long haul airline not much of their route structure could use the 727. They flew a few on short routes to Mexico and the Caribbean also.

I agree this is an interesting topic. Good on the OP. The people who criticized it can go read another endless worthless thread about what new routes should airline XX be flying (because their route planning department isn't smart enough to figure it out........).
 
klm617
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:48 pm

PanHAM wrote:
I would not call the 4 powers Agreement a loophole. The air corridors served as an Access to Berlin which became important in the days of the Blockade. Whuch started the first large scale air cargo Transport Event in the world. The mother of modern logistics.. The Russians got the lesson that the western allied powers would do everything to Keep Berlin open.

The limited height which the flights where allowed based on the then available Equipment.

HAM and HAJ had Service from both PA and BEA, BEA also had flights to LHR, isiaööy bac1-11 500


Dan Air I believe served Saarbrucken with the HS7 from Berlin and BA also served Sylt with the B11. Air France also had inter German service 727 I believe DUS but not 100% sure.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:04 pm

OA412 wrote:
Most of PAs intra-Europe routes connected various outstations with FRA, although they did fly some intra-Europe from LHR as well (BRU and German cities come to mind). Most of the larger European cities were connected nonstop to the US. It was mainly cities such as BUD, OTP, ATH, and IST that were served exclusively via FRA.

Fun fact, TW and PA had a sort of gentleman’s agreement in place for several decades that saw each of them serving as the exclusive US carrier to certain cities. For instance, TW had served ATH since the late 40s, but PA didn’t connect ATH to FRA until 1985.

The history of PA and TW in Europe is really fascinating. The networks are a relic of a bygone era that will never return. I was around for the tail end of PAs existence, but it’s pretty neat to be able to say I flew them. In the mid 1980s, my family and I connected through Frankfurt, West Germany. The airport was chock full of PA 747s, 727s, and 737s.


This agreement also covered LHR where they divided up the markets they served.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PanHAM
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:04 pm

Dan Air had BAC 1-11 as wll IIRC so did Laker and PA served Mediterranean routex. AF may have chartered 727 but I cannot rememner to have seen them in Berlin.

The IGS (Intra German Service) was unique, an Airline inside the airline
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timz
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:12 pm

OA412 wrote:
TW and PA had a sort of gentleman’s agreement in place for several decades that saw each of them serving as the exclusive US carrier to certain cities.

TW didn't fly to London until PA took over AOA in 1950. I'm guessing TWA wasn't allowed to fly to London until then -- no gentlemen involved. (Not sure -- no PA at Paris until then?)
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:18 pm

timz wrote:
OA412 wrote:
TW and PA had a sort of gentleman’s agreement in place for several decades that saw each of them serving as the exclusive US carrier to certain cities.

TW didn't fly to London until PA took over AOA in 1950. I'm guessing TWA wasn't allowed to fly to London until then -- no gentlemen involved. (Not sure -- no PA at Paris until then?)


From "The Aviator", and Howard Hughes' decision to compete with monopolistic Pan Am. Eventually the two found a "co-existence" together, even though TWA was smaller internationally, it at least had a domestic network. Pan Am did not until JUST before deregulation, when it bought National Airlines.

In the days of the Bermuda II treaty, only TWA and Pan Am could operate to LHR, and it wasn't slot restricted, so both airlines were free to add tag-on flights to elsewhere. I don't think TWA did much from LHR, but as discussed already, Pan Am did. TWA concentrated on Paris, and Pan Am at Frankfurt.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:16 pm

klm617 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
I would not call the 4 powers Agreement a loophole. The air corridors served as an Access to Berlin which became important in the days of the Blockade. Whuch started the first large scale air cargo Transport Event in the world. The mother of modern logistics.. The Russians got the lesson that the western allied powers would do everything to Keep Berlin open.

The limited height which the flights where allowed based on the then available Equipment.

HAM and HAJ had Service from both PA and BEA, BEA also had flights to LHR, isiaööy bac1-11 500


Dan Air I believe served Saarbrucken with the HS7 from Berlin and BA also served Sylt with the B11. Air France also had inter German service 727 I believe DUS but not 100% sure.


I recall seeing one schedule in the mid-1970s were PA served Saarbrucken with the 727-100. The destination didn't show up on most of their other schedules though.

Didn't PA fly DC-6s on their Germany flights prior to the 727-100?
 
timz
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:36 pm

DC-4s at Berlin until 1960, then DC-6Bs until the 727 appeared around 1966-67.
 
highflier92660
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:21 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Didn't PA fly DC-6s on their Germany flights prior to the 727-100?


Indeed they did, with Douglas DC-6Bs at Tempelhof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTZ3aOaeLto
 
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OA412
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 pm

chiad wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Pan Am flew so called feeder flights between various airports in Europe to other European airports in order to fill up their larger Boeing 747's that flew over to the USA. There were feeder flights from Oslo in Norway to London, England in order to fill up their Boeing 747 onward to New York for instance. They flew Boeing 737's, ATR 42's and Boeing 727-200's. From Norway they also flew in old times more direct to the US with Boeing 707 and Dc-8's.


They also flew the A310 directly between OSL and JFK. The route was later taken over by Delta me thinks.

Indeed they did, and DL continued those flights for a couple years after they bought PAs Atlantic routes. I had an old DL timetable from 1992 (wish I still had it) that had all sorts of interesting flights. JFK-OSL, JFK-CPH, JFK-WAW, ATL-HAM-BUD, JFK-LIS, etc. Some of these have come back, which is nice to see.
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panamair
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:37 pm

mats wrote:
There are several ways to look at this:

1. Tags and one-stop flights
Pan Am operated many flights within Europe that were one-stop. For example, New York/JFK - Oslo - Stockholm. This was an A310, which was the same aircraft through to Stockholm.
In many instances, the destination of the second leg varied based on the day of the week.

In other cases, the tag was a change-of-gauge, particularly to a 727 or 737.
Pan Am 103, sadly, was a change-of-gauge service. Flight 103A flew from Frankfurt to London/Heathrow on a 727; flight 103 flew onward from London to New York and San Francisco with a 747.

2. Hubs
Frankfurt was a Pan Am hub. The hub served as a feeder for transatlantic flights (Istanbul-Frankfurt-USA, for example), but it also served passengers who were flying entirely within Europe. This was mostly for flights within what was then the German Federal Republic (West Germany.)

US, French, and American carriers were allowed to fly between Berlin and West Germany while Lufthansa could not. As a result, Pan Am became the dominant carrier from Berlin/Tegel to the West.

Pan Am also served Frankfurt from Pakistan, India, Turkey, Kenya, etc. Flights from Tel Aviv, however, operated by way of Paris/Orly.

London/Heathrow served as a smaller hub, but it was to feed transatlantic flights (some services from Germany and Scandinavia transited London).



While LHR and FRA had the bulk of the intra-European flights, they also operated them from MUC and ZRH during the '80s. On different days of the week, there was narrow-body service MUC-VIE-WAW, MUC-BUD-OTP, and MUC-BUD-DBV as a continuation of the JFK-MUC 747 flight; similarly there was ZRH-GVA-IST and ZRH-STR-TXL on 727s as continuation of the JFK-ZRH 747 service.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:53 pm

:) An anecdotical and funny side note :) - Allegedly the "evil yanks/imperialist war mongerers" had cast masses of colorado beatles from their planes while overflying the GDR/Soviet-Russian occupational zone in order to destroy the potato crops and cause a famine.

Well, those heatles had been a matter of fact and there had been dramatic campaigns forcing all school children to pick up those bugs from the fields. However, that plague had most likely been caused by naval vessels during WWI and not by aeroplanes during or after WWII.

Image

:) Fight for peace, the above poster says. :D

Image
 
seaniez
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:54 pm

My grandfather flew the Internal German Service for a few years before returning back to the US, he was on the 727 flying out of Tempelhof, he would fly all over Europe and occasionally the USSR. I was told that he and the rest of the crew felt like they were being watched all the time while in Moscow.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:29 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

In the days of the Bermuda II treaty, only TWA and Pan Am could operate to LHR, and it wasn't slot restricted, so both airlines were free to add tag-on flights to elsewhere. I don't think TWA did much from LHR, but as discussed already, Pan Am did. TWA concentrated on Paris, and Pan Am at Frankfurt.


National in fact flew to LHR, one of the US3 that were allowed. But NA was bought by PA and then it was down to 2. Bermuda II would have allowed Texas International to fly MIA-LHR if they had succeeded in buying NA as it would have been grandfathered.
Next up: STL-DAL-ABQ-DAL-STL. A little December day trip. Because that's what av-geeks do. :airplane:
 
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Polot
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:49 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

In the days of the Bermuda II treaty, only TWA and Pan Am could operate to LHR, and it wasn't slot restricted, so both airlines were free to add tag-on flights to elsewhere. I don't think TWA did much from LHR, but as discussed already, Pan Am did. TWA concentrated on Paris, and Pan Am at Frankfurt.


National in fact flew to LHR, one of the US3 that were allowed. But NA was bought by PA and then it was down to 2. Bermuda II would have allowed Texas International to fly MIA-LHR if they had succeeded in buying NA as it would have been grandfathered.

Remember the Bermuda 2 agreement only came into effect in 1978. I believe National was allowed to continue flying into LHR because at the time they were the only US carrier flying the route.

There is no gaurentee that if anyone merged with NA that they could keep the route. CAB looked at the route authority separate from the merge and could have stripped it from say TI/NA and given it to PA or TW.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:31 am

Polot wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

In the days of the Bermuda II treaty, only TWA and Pan Am could operate to LHR, and it wasn't slot restricted, so both airlines were free to add tag-on flights to elsewhere. I don't think TWA did much from LHR, but as discussed already, Pan Am did. TWA concentrated on Paris, and Pan Am at Frankfurt.


National in fact flew to LHR, one of the US3 that were allowed. But NA was bought by PA and then it was down to 2. Bermuda II would have allowed Texas International to fly MIA-LHR if they had succeeded in buying NA as it would have been grandfathered.

Remember the Bermuda 2 agreement only came into effect in 1978. I believe National was allowed to continue flying into LHR because at the time they were the only US carrier flying the route.

There is no gaurentee that if anyone merged with NA that they could keep the route. CAB looked at the route authority separate from the merge and could have stripped it from say TI/NA and given it to PA or TW.


Correct, but the Bermuda air services agreement that preceeded Bermuda II limited LHR flights to Pan Am, TWA, and BOAC. Within both treaties, though, were cities listed in the U.S. that could be served from Heathrow, and since no one else was offering that flight, I assume this is why National obtained this route authority.

However, Pan Am is showing a single daily non-stop from MIA to LHR in 1980, so it looks like Pan Am picked up National's authority after the merger:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042780p26.html
 
Cunard
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:39 am

That is correct and it is well documentated that Pan Am picked up the route authority for MIA to LHR after they had merged with National which took effect in 1980.
 
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Polot
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Re: Pan Am European Ops

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:20 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Polot wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

National in fact flew to LHR, one of the US3 that were allowed. But NA was bought by PA and then it was down to 2. Bermuda II would have allowed Texas International to fly MIA-LHR if they had succeeded in buying NA as it would have been grandfathered.

Remember the Bermuda 2 agreement only came into effect in 1978. I believe National was allowed to continue flying into LHR because at the time they were the only US carrier flying the route.

There is no gaurentee that if anyone merged with NA that they could keep the route. CAB looked at the route authority separate from the merge and could have stripped it from say TI/NA and given it to PA or TW.


Correct, but the Bermuda air services agreement that preceeded Bermuda II limited LHR flights to Pan Am, TWA, and BOAC. Within both treaties, though, were cities listed in the U.S. that could be served from Heathrow, and since no one else was offering that flight, I assume this is why National obtained this route authority.

However, Pan Am is showing a single daily non-stop from MIA to LHR in 1980, so it looks like Pan Am picked up National's authority after the merger:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042780p26.html

AFAIK nothing about the Bermuda I agreement limited LHR to PA, TW, and BOAC...it was just US and UK policy/decision to give the (Atlantic) international routes primarily to those carriers. NA just happened to be an outlier in terms of US Atlantic route authority decisions. AOA flew to LHR until purchased by PA in 1950 (iirc PA was not at LHr at the time), in a merger that was against the CAB’s wishes but authorized by the President (Bermuda I signed in 1946). Bermuda II of course came about because the UK feared that the US carriers were basically going to overrun BA due to their growing strength and size hence the two carrier restriction.

As you noted the CAB decided to let PA/NA keep the Miami London authority. A few years later they set up the second authority which was awarded to Air Florida (flying to LGW of course).

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