LondonXtreme
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LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:26 pm

Is it feasible for LGA to add west coast service upon new terminal completion?
Will AA&DL intend to move their premium service routes(SFO&LAX) to LGA if LGA drops its perimeter rule?
If that happens, will UA, AS, BS be the loser in NYC-SFO/LAX market if they don't follow? or any chances for transatlantic flights being added such as LGA-LCY by BA, LGA-DUB by EI?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:32 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
Is it feasible for LGA to add west coast service upon new terminal completion?
Will AA&DL intend to move their premium service routes(SFO&LAX) to LGA if LGA drops its perimeter rule?
If that happens, will UA, AS, BS be the loser in NYC-SFO/LAX market if they don't follow? or any chances for transatlantic flights being added such as LGA-LCY by BA, LGA-DUB by EI?

Since the perimeter rule is highly unlikely to change, it would not be feasible.

Edit: I suppose it would be remiss of me to fail to mention the fact that a new terminal doesn't even come close to fixing LGA's real issues. Namely, a poor runway configuration, and airspace saturation. LGA already handles so much traffic that holding for arrivals is a daily occurrence. Additional flights to the west coast or internationally — politics aside — would be virtually impossible for the airport to handle logistically. It's already failing to cope with current traffic levels.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:40 pm

Multiple airlines, including DL, have attempted LGA Saturday-only service to the west coast (in DL's case, I believe to LAX and LAS) and have apparently not found it to be successful.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:41 pm

The perimeter rule is an artificial constraint. Airlines should be allowed to fly wherever they want to with their slots. JFK is well established and will not be hurt by opening up LGA.
 
timz
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:51 pm

No one is worried about hurting JFK. Apparently the Port Authority thinks transcons out of LGA will make LGA too busy.
 
jplatts
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:55 pm

I think that WN might add nonstop service to a few places beyond the current LGA perimeter such as AUS, PHX, and SAT if the perimeter rule is loosened at LGA.
 
airliner371
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:07 pm

The modern argument for the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA is that it accommodates service to smaller cities. Cities like XNA, CAE, CHA, and others would likely lose NYC service without the LGA perimeter rule.

We're even seeing examples of this at EWR as UA refocuses on O&D traffic. They're cutting smaller cities from EWR to allow for increased frequencies to larger cities.

Would JFK backfill some of these cities with domestic, long-haul flying shifting to LGA? I don't know, I don't have an opinion on the issue either way because I don't have research to estimate what would actually happen without the perimeter rule, but there would be considerable shifts in traffic patterns if the rule went away and I think it needs to be researched more.

--

What I don't think is fair is having special exemptions as we see at DCA. A set number of exemptions is fine, but why should the legacies be allowed to shift service to different cities with their exemptions, while WN and B6 are required to serve the cities they applied for. There should be a set number of exemptions, and perhaps they should be up for review every 2 years with rewards based on an ideal competitive landscape founded on research. There are a lot of different ways to do it, but the current DCA practices are not fair.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:07 pm

The perimeter rule at LGA and DCA are bygone era-remnants of the "bigger planes mean more noise!" cry from the late 1950's/early 1960's. The effort was to keep close-in areas quiet by sending airplanes to larger airports, where, presumably the noise wouldn't bother anyone. And at the time of the perimeter rules' implementation, this was the case.

But like a tax, regulations like this are almost impossible to get rid of, even though planes are orders of magnitude quieter than they were when John F. Kennedy took office. Ironically enough, the same plane can fly LGA/DCA-DEN-SAN, but it can't fly LGA/DCA-SAN, because "it's against the rules". And getting rid of that rule isn't likely to happen unless something changes drastically.

The desire to fly West Coast-DCA I understand - DCA is, in my opinion, one of THE most convenient airports in the world, tied in nicely with mass transit & trains (quick jump to Union Station) and the road system. LGA is my absolute last choice for airports when flying to NYC, partially because there is no non-stop, but mostly because it is, at the end of the day, just like JFK and EWR, subject to delays in getting to/from the airport, and it is the most lacking in a mass transit option. But it does serve a vital part in the NYC network, so please don't anyone think I am advocating for its closure - I'm just doing my part to keep NYC as uncrowded as I can by not ever considering LGA for my needs.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:15 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

The perimeter rule at LGA and DCA are bygone era-remnants of the "bigger planes mean more noise!" cry from the late 1950's/early 1960's. The effort was to keep close-in areas quiet by sending airplanes to larger airports, where, presumably the noise wouldn't bother anyone. And at the time of the perimeter rules' implementation, this was the case.


True enough but there really weren't any jets that COULD fly LGA-West Coast when the perimeter rule was established. A 727 "may" have made it to SLC/PHX, maybe LAS. Then again the shorter runways may have put an end to that possibility anyways.
Next up: STL-DAL-ABQ-DAL-STL. A little December day trip. Because that's what av-geeks do. :airplane:
 
gsg013
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Re: LGA to west coast

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:56 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

The perimeter rule at LGA and DCA are bygone era-remnants of the "bigger planes mean more noise!" cry from the late 1950's/early 1960's. The effort was to keep close-in areas quiet by sending airplanes to larger airports, where, presumably the noise wouldn't bother anyone. And at the time of the perimeter rules' implementation, this was the case.


True enough but there really weren't any jets that COULD fly LGA-West Coast when the perimeter rule was established. A 727 "may" have made it to SLC/PHX, maybe LAS. Then again the shorter runways may have put an end to that possibility anyways.


I know the 767-400ER was designed to be able to fly in and out of LGA although no one really does anymore.. I suppose it could make it to the west coast... It's far fetched but it would be interesting if DL or AA got special approval for lets call an executive flight all J maybe on an A220 going LGA-LAX or LGA-SFO.
 
lat41
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:08 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

The perimeter rule at LGA and DCA are bygone era-remnants of the "bigger planes mean more noise!" cry from the late 1950's/early 1960's. The effort was to keep close-in areas quiet by sending airplanes to larger airports, where, presumably the noise wouldn't bother anyone. And at the time of the perimeter rules' implementation, this was the case.


True enough but there really weren't any jets that COULD fly LGA-West Coast when the perimeter rule was established. A 727 "may" have made it to SLC/PHX, maybe LAS. Then again the shorter runways may have put an end to that possibility anyways.

What issues still remain for nonstop West Coast operations from LGA's 7000' runways. Is hot humid still an issue for today's most likely aircraft to fly those routes. How about on contaminated runways especially in the Winter along with a strong Jetstream. What type of weight limitations might still be in the picture when conditions are less than ideal?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
The perimeter rule is an artificial constraint. Airlines should be allowed to fly wherever they want to with their slots. JFK is well established and will not be hurt by opening up LGA.


Your view of what should happen has really never existed in U.S. interstate commercial aviation. It's not going to happen any time soon. (Example: Why do slots belong to carriers? For the most part they didn't buy them - they were allocated. Carriers don't want to risk them being re-allocated, or market-allocated as via auction.)
 
timz
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:12 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The perimeter rule at LGA and DCA are bygone era-remnants of the "bigger planes mean more noise!" cry from the late 1950's/early 1960's.

Far as we know, LGA's perimeter rule dates from around 1984. (DCA's rule was for jets only, starting in 1966.)

Think the first 1500+ mile jet flight out of LGA was CO to Denver about 1981. There were a couple of 1500+ mile flights to-but-not-from LGA in the late 1960s.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:42 am

No one should be entitled to LGA service. Either the demand is there or it isn't. If there is more demand to LAX, SFO, SEA from LGA than ROA, LIT, GRR then the airlines should be allowed to operate those flights.
 
ericm2031
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:31 am

jplatts wrote:
I think that WN might add nonstop service to a few places beyond the current LGA perimeter such as AUS, PHX, and SAT if the perimeter rule is loosened at LGA.


WN already runs PHX-LGA seasonally on Saturdays. I believe this is the 2nd year, but not positive.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:50 am

gsg013 wrote:
I know the 767-400ER was designed to be able to fly in and out of LGA although no one really does anymore.. I suppose it could make it to the west coast.

If BA can do MSY-LHR with a full load+cargo off of a 7000ft runway (video and map with directional arrow below), then DL shouldn't have much issue doing LGA-LAX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmxW9V0g-vY

Image
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
n7371f
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:06 am

TZ ran some Sat-only LGA-SFO/LAX flights with the 753.
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:27 am

LAX772LR wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
I know the 767-400ER was designed to be able to fly in and out of LGA although no one really does anymore.. I suppose it could make it to the west coast.

If BA can do MSY-LHR with a full load+cargo off of a 7000ft runway (video and map with directional arrow below), then DL shouldn't have much issue doing LGA-LAX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmxW9V0g-vY

Image


That’s a 787 in the video... also how do you know the aircraft was fully loaded? What was the passenger load? Cargo load? Fuel load? It was an east bound flight of 4100nm for an aircraft with a range of 7355nm. Surely they didn’t need full fuel? What were the winds on takeoff? Over the ocean? Was an alternate airport needed upon landing, and thus extra fuel? So many unknowns to this statement to consider :-)

I’ve actually been researching this very issue in regards to 767s operating at LGA, and reached out to a friend who flies the 767 at Delta. He said the 767-300 can handle LGA’s runways most days, but if they were contaminated, it would be problematic. Regarding the 767-400, he said that plane is quite a dog, and struggles to climb transatlantic. He said Delta did fly it into LGA, but it had to be weight restricted. I wish we had performance sheets to figure out just how much of a penalty it would take.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:34 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
That’s a 787 in the video... also how do you know the aircraft was fully loaded?

Because I was on it... duh. :lol:

Well that, and paying attention to the flight stats given at the inaugural party.


CRJ200flyer wrote:
What was the passenger load?

J and W full, 12 unsold in Y, 7 nonrevs.


CRJ200flyer wrote:
Cargo load?

Just shy of 4 tonnes, largest being frozen blue crab


CRJ200flyer wrote:
Fuel load?

RELEVANT ANSWER: more than any 767 would ever need on a US transcon.


CRJ200flyer wrote:
What were the winds on takeoff?

190@17


CRJ200flyer wrote:
Was an alternate airport needed upon landing, and thus extra fuel?

*whispers* "Psst, that's every routing."
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tallis
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:16 am

LAX772LR wrote:
If BA can do MSY-LHR with a full load+cargo off of a 7000ft runway (video and map with directional arrow below), then DL shouldn't have much issue doing LGA-LAX.


Whilst it might not be an issue everyday or even every week, there would definitely be issues under certain circumstances (hot days, calm wind, low pressure) that can cause havoc with loads.

I operate from an airfield that’s not dissimilar from LGA and under such circumstances we often need to offload people.

The first argument we hear is pretty much the one you make above ‘if such and such an airline can do it from x airport then why can’t you?’

Just because BA operate MSY-LHR (which I’m sure has performance penalties from time to time) that doesn’t mean things would therefore be plain sailing for transcons out of LGA.
 
mmo
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:53 am

I can assure you the 787 was not even close to MTOW (structural). It might have been close to MTOW based on performance. Just because it's full of people and 4 tons of cargo doesn't mean too much.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:26 am

LAX772LR wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
That’s a 787 in the video... also how do you know the aircraft was fully loaded?

Because I was on it... duh. :lol:

Well that, and paying attention to the flight stats given at the inaugural party.


CRJ200flyer wrote:
What was the passenger load?

J and W full, 12 unsold in Y, 7 nonrevs.


CRJ200flyer wrote:
Cargo load?

Just shy of 4 tonnes, largest being frozen blue crab


CRJ200flyer wrote:
Fuel load?

RELEVANT ANSWER: more than any 767 would ever need on a US transcon.


CRJ200flyer wrote:
What were the winds on takeoff?

190@17


CRJ200flyer wrote:
Was an alternate airport needed upon landing, and thus extra fuel?

*whispers* "Psst, that's every routing."


Ok, being on an inaugural flight is pretty sweet. I’ll give you that. ;-) Thank you for more data! I love discussions because I truly want to figure this out.

Yes, every ETOPs TATL route includes mandatory diversion airports, but that doesn’t mean you’re carrying full fuel.

Let’s look at some charts for takeoff performance. Pulling up some basic runway performance data, briefly assuming zero wind, let’s refer to chart 3-5 from this airport briefing guide:

https://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/comme ... ps/787.pdf

Looking at a 787-8 at MTOW, assuming no headwind, standard day, and sea level, the aircraft would need 10,200 feet of runway. Sadly this basic guide does not provide us any insight into headwind reductions. Is a 17 knot headwind enough to shave off 30% of the takeoff roll? I am honestly not sure!

Let’s switch gears a second though to the airplane we actually want to determine performance for out of LaGuardia. To your point that a 767 must surely be able to do it, let’s take a peak at the 767-400ER takeoff data located on page 81 of this airport briefing guide.

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commer ... ps/767.pdf

Note: This is some very basic paper napkin style math. I wish I had the full spread of takeoff performance charts and computers to play with.

Assumptions:
-Dry runway
-No wind
-Sea level
-Standard temperature

We must assume no wind because wind is never a guarantee, and as I’ve seen departing LaGuardia at the controls of many flights, many times it’s a direct crosswind!

MTOW (450000 lbs) takeoff roll: 10,300 feet

Uh oh, LGA’s runway is 7,000 feet. Airplane is definitely in need of weight restrictions. What weight gives us our assumed takeoff roll? 385000 lbs. So, we’ve already lost 65000 lbs of takeoff weight.

But wait! We just assumed we would use every foot of that runway! Let’s assume we are daring and go for 6500 feet for takeoff margin. Now we’re at 370000 lbs, or 70000 lbs under MTOW.

Alright, so now in our perfect temperature, low pressure altitude day, we are flying LGA to LAX. 2,200NM. The stated max range of the 764 is 5625nm, and max fuel 161740 lbs. Let’s use some proportions here since we don’t have cruise performance charts. Rounding up to 3000NM worth of fuel required for flight plus reserves, that’s (3000/5625) x 161740 lbs = 86300 lbs. (Note this is only 53% of the fuel load, but ok let’s roll with it).

Let’s do some math:
Empty weight: 229000 lbs
Fuel weight: 86300 lbs
People: 180 lbs x 246 pax = 44280 lbs
Bags: 35lbs/person x 246 pax = 8610lbs
Cargo: None

Total weight = 368190 lbs

Well, assuming basically no cargo (Delta is crying hard right now) and our passengers having a light bag load, as well as no headwinds on our westbound flight, plus direct routing to LAX, we are around 1800 lbs under our restricted MTOW on this day.

Now if we return to the tables, if we crank up the temperature to ISA + 17, we are restricted to 360000 lbs. Or if we have a wet runway on a hot day, 350000 lbs. So, more weight restrictions, meaning we are leaving bags and people behind, still without any valuable cargo. Now toss some storms on our route and a 100 knot headwind... I could see why this might not be an economically feasible plan.

Obviously this was just a fun, rough math game.

Edit: If you see a glaring math error, let me know. It just took me an hour and a half to write this post. :flamed:
 
xdlx
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:48 am

86300 lbs of fuel in a 764 is enough to go around the world!
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:05 pm

[*]
xdlx wrote:
86300 lbs of fuel in a 764 is enough to go around the world!


Well do you have some reliable 764 fuel burn rates so I may improve this figure? Because from what I’ve seen with full pax, 86300 is definitely not enough for around the world! We are trying to do a simple feasibility study here, so any info helps! :bouncy:

Edit: Just to be clear to all, I appreciate feedback and discussion. The point of that calculation exercise was to stop the speculation, and try to get to some rough numbers so we had a basis for our conclusions. I don’t fly a 767-400, so I’m relying on charts and basic flight planning numbers.
Last edited by CRJ200flyer on Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:06 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The perimeter rule at LGA and DCA are bygone era-remnants of the "bigger planes mean more noise!" cry from the late 1950's/early 1960's. The effort was to keep close-in areas quiet by sending airplanes to larger airports, where, presumably the noise wouldn't bother anyone. And at the time of the perimeter rules' implementation, this was the case.

But like a tax, regulations like this are almost impossible to get rid of, even though planes are orders of magnitude quieter than they were when John F. Kennedy took office. Ironically enough, the same plane can fly LGA/DCA-DEN-SAN, but it can't fly LGA/DCA-SAN, because "it's against the rules". And getting rid of that rule isn't likely to happen unless something changes drastically.

The desire to fly West Coast-DCA I understand - DCA is, in my opinion, one of THE most convenient airports in the world, tied in nicely with mass transit & trains (quick jump to Union Station) and the road system. LGA is my absolute last choice for airports when flying to NYC, partially because there is no non-stop, but mostly because it is, at the end of the day, just like JFK and EWR, subject to delays in getting to/from the airport, and it is the most lacking in a mass transit option. But it does serve a vital part in the NYC network, so please don't anyone think I am advocating for its closure - I'm just doing my part to keep NYC as uncrowded as I can by not ever considering LGA for my needs.


FYI. DC10, L1011, A300 and 767 all designed to be able to operate from LGA. The perimeter rule was implemented in 1984. Please use facts
Last edited by BobbyPSP on Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stlgph
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:07 pm

You all can sit here and talk runway length and aircraft performance all you want, etc. etc., but what hasn't been discussed is said certain New York City-based airline who benefits greatly from its operation at JFK who has all the major Tri-state region politicians in their corner.

So, I'll just toss that out there.
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lat41
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
I know the 767-400ER was designed to be able to fly in and out of LGA although no one really does anymore.. I suppose it could make it to the west coast.

If BA can do MSY-LHR with a full load+cargo off of a 7000ft runway (video and map with directional arrow below), then DL shouldn't have much issue doing LGA-LAX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmxW9V0g-vY

Image

MSY does not have snow or sand on the runway for departing flights to contend with, nor do the flights fly directly into the Winter jet stream.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:08 pm

Peformance issues out of LGA generally are related to climb, not so much runway length. The Whitestone climb off 13 is a real performance killer when it comes to engine out scenarios.
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DL747400
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:40 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
The perimeter rule is an artificial constraint. Airlines should be allowed to fly wherever they want to with their slots. JFK is well established and will not be hurt by opening up LGA.


Agreed. NYC is too large of a metropolitan area to still have such an archaic rule in place with no strong case to do so.

timz wrote:
No one is worried about hurting JFK. Apparently the Port Authority thinks transcons out of LGA will make LGA too busy.


JFK will be just fine when the LGA perimeter rule is dropped. Regardless of what the PANYNJ thinks, the traveling public is increasingly wanting the option of domestic transcon flights at LGA as an alternative to having to schlep over to EWR or out to JFK. Ask all the NYC air travelers who primarily use LGA because it is their closest and most convenient airport. They want transcons.

I strongly believe that the dominoes will begin to fall once the LGA rebuild is completed. Only a matter of time.
Last edited by DL747400 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jfklganyc
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:40 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
Is it feasible for LGA to add west coast service upon new terminal completion?
Will AA&DL intend to move their premium service routes(SFO&LAX) to LGA if LGA drops its perimeter rule?
If that happens, will UA, AS, BS be the loser in NYC-SFO/LAX market if they don't follow? or any chances for transatlantic flights being added such as LGA-LCY by BA, LGA-DUB by EI?



You just stated why it will never happen.

People underestimate how politically connected JetBlue is in NY. They are very savvy on all levels of State government.

I believe they have a lease renewal on their headquarters coming up in Long Island city.

I’m sure that will play central part in LGA slot exemptions. No way NY is going to imperil their hometown airline on Mint transcons with LGA wesr coast ops.

I believe if any West Coast slots to LaGuardia open up, they will be limited in nature, they will be equally distributed among airlines already serving the west coast from JFK And they will be in addition to LaGuardia slots already existing.

This will pacify Delta and protect B6
 
tphuang
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:09 pm

DL747400 wrote:
JFK will be just fine when the LGA perimeter rule is dropped. Regardless of what the PANYNJ thinks, the traveling public is increasingly wanting the option of domestic transcon flights at LGA as an alternative to having to schlep over to EWR or out to JFK. Ask all the NYC air travelers who primarily use LGA because it is their closest and most convenient airport. They want transcons.

I strongly believe that the dominoes will begin to fall once the LGA rebuild is completed. Only a matter of time.


I live in NYC and I haven't heard of anyone saying that. The current setup works for people of New York pretty well.
 
evank516
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:48 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
Is it feasible for LGA to add west coast service upon new terminal completion?
Will AA&DL intend to move their premium service routes(SFO&LAX) to LGA if LGA drops its perimeter rule?
If that happens, will UA, AS, BS be the loser in NYC-SFO/LAX market if they don't follow? or any chances for transatlantic flights being added such as LGA-LCY by BA, LGA-DUB by EI?



You just stated why it will never happen.

People underestimate how politically connected JetBlue is in NY. They are very savvy on all levels of State government.

I believe they have a lease renewal on their headquarters coming up in Long Island city.

I’m sure that will play central part in LGA slot exemptions. No way NY is going to imperil their hometown airline on Mint transcons with LGA wesr coast ops.

I believe if any West Coast slots to LaGuardia open up, they will be limited in nature, they will be equally distributed among airlines already serving the west coast from JFK And they will be in addition to LaGuardia slots already existing.

This will pacify Delta and protect B6


The A321 isn't exactly nimble on shorter runways. There's no way it can do transcons from LGA. Those things are runway hogs as it is, so for a transcon I wouldn't bet on an A321 doing it. Might be a reason to bring the 757s back to LGA though, I miss those!
 
twaconnie
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:14 pm

To CRJFLYER200 keep in mind LGA runway decks are limited to 363,000 lbs. All your math sounds good but that is the bottom line.
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:38 pm

twaconnie wrote:
To CRJFLYER200 keep in mind LGA runway decks are limited to 363,000 lbs. All your math sounds good but that is the bottom line.


Interesting, I had not heard of this. Thanks for your insight. So now we’ve lost another 7000 pounds off our theoretical limiting weight (down 87000 from MTOW).
 
codc10
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Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:45 pm

Delta is really the only one of the big NY carriers that wants the LGA perimeter down fully. One thing is for sure, if LGA fence goes away entirely, JFK transcon yields (and those of EWR, to a lesser extent) go down the tubes. DL has the critical mass at JFK that it can move or duplicate premium transcons at LGA without a massive negative impact to its JFK franchise.

JetBlue has equipment constraints with the standard 321 on westbound TCON, and much more capital tied up in its JFK facility to suddenly extract a profitable component of its operation (Mint) and move it elsewhere, or partially replicate it, as a competitive response. B6 is already under fire from the investment community and this would be a lose-lose scenario for the company, IMO.

The transcons are AA's most valuable pieces at JFK, and while it has the LGA slots to develop a competitive TCON schedule, the redundancy would further weaken AA's JFK operation. On the flip side, moving the bulk of the frequencies to LGA might free up sufficient real estate to bring BA in-house at T8, creating a true OW international facility.

Alaska doesn't have the LGA slot portfolio.

UA doesn't really have a dog in the fight, but could take the opportunity to 'clean slate' and re-launch perhaps a premium SFO service from LGA using various slots cobbled together from ORD/CLE/IAD/IAH service.

More realistic, in my view, and as others have suggested, is a small-scale process whereby existing slotholders can apply to convert limited pairs to 'exception' flights. That would mostly preserve the status quo while adding what would be very lucrative, albeit limited, new flights. Washington is a different market, but it seems to have worked reasonably well for DCA.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 5429
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:32 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:

I’ve actually been researching this very issue in regards to 767s operating at LGA, and reached out to a friend who flies the 767 at Delta. He said the 767-300 can handle LGA’s runways most days, but if they were contaminated, it would be problematic. Regarding the 767-400, he said that plane is quite a dog, and struggles to climb transatlantic. He said Delta did fly it into LGA, but it had to be weight restricted. I wish we had performance sheets to figure out just how much of a penalty it would take.


Remember that the 767-300 flies out of OGG and even LIH, both of which have shorter runways than LGA. Although those runways probably aren't icy very often.

The 767-400 is a good airplane in some ways, but would have sold a lot better if a proper investment was made in range and a higher thrust.

Didn't AA try LGA-LAX on Saturdays too, or was that DL as someone else mentioned? I remember when some tried that on a 757.
 
lat41
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:27 pm

Remember also OGG and LIH have no sand or slush on the strip and that Eastbound flights have the jet strem at their back. East Coast to West Coast can sometimes take easily a full hour longer fighting the Winter stream instead of the nice kick in the tail heading East.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:33 pm

Didn’t SouthWest do PHX and/or LAS on Saturday’s only in the past? There’s no restrictions that day...
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:28 pm

You need a LGA like this

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405669
 
stlgph
Posts: 10605
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:35 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
You need a LGA like this

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405669


Dude. No.

Just. no.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: LGA to west coast

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:36 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Didn't AA try LGA-LAX on Saturdays too, or was that DL as someone else mentioned? I remember when some tried that on a 757.

AA has done outside-perimiter flights out west to places like EGE; not sure if they have ever flown LGA-LAX, though as I said DL has. I believe US also flew Saturday only LAS and PHX from LGA in the past; not sure if they also tried LAX.
 
Cunard
Posts: 1723
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:58 am

chunhimlai wrote:
You need a LGA like this

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405669


Oh no not another attempt at your ridiculous mega airport ideas, I have to say that I missed this one but looking at the replies from other posters you've got similar responses to your other ridiculous ideas including your stupid suggestions regarding making Exeter Airport in England a six runway mega hub.

You come across as a very immature person with these ridiculous suggestions and you have obviously not even checked out Google Earth beforehand to see if any part of your plans are even feasible which by the way they are not.

Personally and I think others would agree with me but could you kindly stop posting your silly suggestions and these ridiculous graphics because in reality and in actually believing that any of them are at all feasible I'm afraid that you come across as being absolutely and totally dilusional.

Honestly it does make me wonder how old you actually are or at least your mental age!
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2071
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: LGA to west coast

Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:01 am

Cunard wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
You need a LGA like this

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405669


Oh no not another attempt at your ridiculous mega airport ideas, I have to say that I missed this one but looking at the replies from other posters you've got similar responses to your other ridiculous ideas including your stupid suggestions regarding making Exeter Airport in England a six runway mega hub.

You come across as a very immature person with these ridiculous suggestions and you have obviously not even checked out Google Earth beforehand to see if any part of your plans are even feasible which by the way they are not.

Personally and I think others would agree with me but could you kindly stop posting your silly suggestions and these ridiculous graphics because in reality and in actually believing that any of them are at all feasible I'm afraid that you come across as being absolutely and totally dilusional.

Honestly it does make me wonder how old you actually are or at least your mental age!


I seriously doubt the new congresswoman who represents that area would be interested in such a plan.
 
AndrewJM70
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:08 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:21 am

They managed to extend the piers to accomodate EMAS so surely it would not be beyond the wit of man to extend them further to get the runways up to say 8,000ft. The extra 1000ft would not need a weight rating for touchdown so wouldn't require the strength of the original extensions.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:16 pm

AndrewJM70 wrote:
They managed to extend the piers to accomodate EMAS so surely it would not be beyond the wit of man to extend them further to get the runways up to say 8,000ft. The extra 1000ft would not need a weight rating for touchdown so wouldn't require the strength of the original extensions.


It's my under standing they couldn't extend the decks any more because of water depth,but with todays technology I don't see why they can't find another solution.How ever it would require weight bearing strength for take off.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5008
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: LGA to west coast

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:20 pm

Delta flew Saturday only LGA LAX in the past.

It didnt work

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