mjoelnir
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Max Q wrote:
A big ‘selling point’ for the A310 that turned out to be moot was its fuselage
diameter which allowed LD3 containers
to be carried side by side


This was thought to be a big advantage for
airlines operating DC10/ L1011 and B747
aircraft as it would allow the convenience
of interlining these containers between fleets



For some European airlines this may
have been a factor and a real advantage


But it wasn’t a consideration on the other
side of the Atlantic, in fact the narrower
fuselage of the 767 (and bigger wing)
significantly lowered drag and improved its
aerodynamics so much that it just blew
away the A310 on range and of course, sales


I am rather tired of this 767 blew the A310 away in sales. The 767 did not. The A310 competed with the 767-200/200ER and the 767-300 competed with the A300 and later with the A330.
At that time Airbus did not denote a different size of the same family with a dash -100 -200 and so on, but with a different A3xx number, as we still see in the A320 family. The dash than denoted a change to the frame of the same size.

The A310 is a shrink of the A300B1, B2, B4, done on the request of several airlines and perhaps to match the than introduced 767-200 in size. With a smaller wing that was never designed to carry a frame of the size of the A300 or 767-300. It had also a lighter landing gear. The rear fuselage was redesigned. Two men cockpit was introduced.
A little bit later a new version of the A300 was introduced, the A300-600. With a lot of the changes that had been introduced by the A310 including the two men cockpit. Same type rating as the A310 by the FAA.

Both the A310 and the A300 were overall lighter frames than the corresponding 767, not designed for increased range, but well designed for the MoM role, that is talked so much about today. To match the 767-300ER (later also 767-400ER) in range and capabilities, the A330 was introduced and we all know how that competition ended.
So if one talks about sales, A300 B versions, about 250 frames, A310 255 frames and A300-600 about 310 frames. That makes all together 816 frames sold. Not to bad for the first try of a twin wide body airliner.

The A300/310 is a far earlier design (EIS 1974) than the 767 (EIS 1982) and therefore perhaps not strange that it was earlier replaced. On the high end by the A330, on the low end by the A321. At that time Airbus also did convert to FBW.

In regards to the fuselage design, used unchanged on the A300/310 and A330/340, that has been sold now in nearly 3000 frames and delivered in 2620. Find a wide body fuselage design that holds better up against the test of time.
 
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fallap
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:58 pm

I was fortunate to experience the A310 on a single flight with Mahan Air last year. It didn't feel much different from the A300, but it was still a thrill to be able to fly in such a rare bird.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
787X30
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:11 pm

So, in at nutshell, Air Transat refuse to release this geeky... opinion piece? to service?

Naughty them.

Fading, as in fading into the sky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cWjY4-gBEU
 
YYZLGA
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:37 pm

TS operates them YYZ-YUL. Loads are often fairly light and obviously there isn't a need for too much fuel. It's the closest you'll get to being on a Saturn V.
 
westgate
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:10 pm

I pretty much consider the A330 a relatively straightforward stretch of the A300/310, just with new wings and engines and it was in fact classified as the A300B9 when first envisaged. But with the addition of fly-by-wire, side-stick control and glass cockpit taken from the A320, it ultimately ended up being such a different airplane internally that it was justifiably placed in its own family with the A340.

There are perhaps even greater differences between the 737-8MAX and the 737-100, yet the MAX is still very much considered a 737 nonetheless.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:10 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
It's the closest you'll get to being on a Saturn V.


:bouncy: :bigthumbsup:
 
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OA412
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:39 pm

DLHAM wrote:
AirbusOnly wrote:
LH used their 313 in their last operating Time only on very short but much frequented routes like HAM-FRA or TXL-FRA. As far as I know LH never flew TATL with their 313.


Lufthansa flew the A310 on HAM-EWR and DUS-EWR in the 90s. I think - but Im not sure - they even operated CGN-NYC for a short time with the A310.

This is a 1992 Hamburg Airport schedule:

Image

They also operated the A310 on DUS-ORD in the early 1990s.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
BojamDelta
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:20 pm

Jalap wrote:
All this chatter about Diamond Sakha but no pic. Tststs



Another remarkable colour scheme on the A310 was Balair’s with the yellow wings:



:bigthumbsup:

Bo)am
 
a300
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:36 pm

I think that the A-310 relatively low sales figure should be taken in context: the A-310 was not a separate model. It was a sub-model of the A-300. In fact it was initially known as the A300B10. Many of the updated features of the A310 were then used in the A300B4-600 series. If you like, there were the A300 original (B1, B2, B4, C4) and A300 new generation (A310-200, A310-300, A300B4-600, A300B4-600R, A300C4-600R, A300F4-600R, A300B4-600ST).

Currently, only Mahan is flying the A-310 in Iran. In fact, it appears that they just added 2 ex-Tarom frames (not clear whether for the active fleet or for parts). The single Taban example is stored with an engine missing. As far as the Iran Air's: the recently overhauled EP-IBK (actually rebuilt after a major fuselage damage) has been on the ground at Mehrabad for the last 7 weeks. The other one, EP-IBL is stored at Tehran-IKA without engines.
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am

The A310 had great economics for it's time
I worked for a larger A310 operator in late 80s/early 90s and the frame was viable for both short hops along with medium/longhaul missions up to about 8hours in range. Add in the belly cargo capacity, in many ways it hit a sweet spot with multi class capacity around 200 seats.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
69bug
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:22 am

I used to do the loadsheet for the A310..you had to make sure that you had enough weight in the tail if you had a lot of cargo on pallets in the forward (no pallets in the back, only LD3. In some conditions this meant you may have needed to block off pax seats in the middle to have more people at the back. Easy enough if you did this early on before check-in opened but it could catch you out.

Later on I did the loadsheet for the A310F (Fedex) and this was usually a challenge to get a decent trim. Most of the time the trim would be near the forward limit.

At one point I was the ramp on duty for a German Air Force A310 which was configured for casualty evacuation. It had stretchers and medical stations in the mid and forward part of the aircraft and a small passenger cabin at the rear..20-30 pax. I got talking to the guy doing the loadsheet and he said that it was not an easy aircraft to get in trim. IIRC it also had long-range fuel tanks so the aft hold could only take 2 LD3s which were the spares kit. This was during the Indonesia Tsunami in 2004, the aircraft was staged out of KUL.

bug
 
RJMAZ
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:00 am

The biggest lost opportunity was a A310NEO or A300NEO.

The A330 stepped up to a whole different size category and created a MOM gap between it and the A320. When the A330 got a further maximum takeoff weight sales moved to the larger 300 version as the A330-200 was too capable. The MOM gap grew larger.

In 2006 when Airbus launched the A350XWB they should have launched simultaneously an A300NEO. The A300 was actually still in production until 2007 so it would have been straight forward. Rolls royce even had the engine called the trent 1500 that would have been perfect.

The A350 created a large MOM gap between it and the A321. An A300NEO would have sat perfectly in the middle. The A330NEO obviously wouldn't have been needed. The A330NEO turned out to sit far too close to the A350. The A330NEO was a last minute decision when Airbus realised it had a huge capability gap between the A350 and A321.
 
columba
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:34 am

The article is not 100 % correcht e.g. the German Air Force has a replacement plan, they will join OCCAR (Organisation Conjointe de Coopération en Matière d’ Armement/Organisation for Joint Armament Cooperation) and use A330MRTTs.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
mjoelnir
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:35 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The biggest lost opportunity was a A310NEO or A300NEO.

The A330 stepped up to a whole different size category and created a MOM gap between it and the A320. When the A330 got a further maximum takeoff weight sales moved to the larger 300 version as the A330-200 was too capable. The MOM gap grew larger.

In 2006 when Airbus launched the A350XWB they should have launched simultaneously an A300NEO. The A300 was actually still in production until 2007 so it would have been straight forward. Rolls royce even had the engine called the trent 1500 that would have been perfect.

The A350 created a large MOM gap between it and the A321. An A300NEO would have sat perfectly in the middle. The A330NEO obviously wouldn't have been needed. The A330NEO turned out to sit far too close to the A350. The A330NEO was a last minute decision when Airbus realised it had a huge capability gap between the A350 and A321.


Airbus offered an A330-100 in the early 2000. Keeping the advantages of the A330 like FBW, with the smaler redesigned wing of the A300. MTOW around 175 t, 210 to 260 pax, 4,200 nm range. No takers. They offered than an A330-500 as a simpler shrink of the A330, with more range than the A330-100, no takers either.

Airlines moved to single aisle for short to medium haul.
 
StTim
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:53 am

Is this not similar to the 797 that Boeing is pushing? Of course on the basis that it is a twin aisle.
 
MoonC
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:47 am

My second only widebody aircraft, besides the A330-200. Flown on it once, IST - GVA. Felt like a literal rocket on takeoff, insane rate of climb I was holding on to my seat for dear life.
 
WIederling
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:54 am

mjoelnir wrote:
With a smaller wing that was never designed to carry a frame of the size of the A300 or 767-300. It had also a lighter landing gear. The rear fuselage was redesigned. Two men cockpit was introduced.


The A310 was Airbus major/full step into a fully supercritical wing. Very up front at the time.
And also very much ahead of the Boeing 767 wing.

The significantly improved lift distribution ( supercritical wing feature )
allows higher wing loading. The A310 wing was "right sized".
Murphy is an optimist
 
Max Q
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:22 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Max Q wrote:
A big ‘selling point’ for the A310 that turned out to be moot was its fuselage
diameter which allowed LD3 containers
to be carried side by side


This was thought to be a big advantage for
airlines operating DC10/ L1011 and B747
aircraft as it would allow the convenience
of interlining these containers between fleets



For some European airlines this may
have been a factor and a real advantage


But it wasn’t a consideration on the other
side of the Atlantic, in fact the narrower
fuselage of the 767 (and bigger wing)
significantly lowered drag and improved its
aerodynamics so much that it just blew
away the A310 on range and of course, sales


I am rather tired of this 767 blew the A310 away in sales. The 767 did not. The A310 competed with the 767-200/200ER and the 767-300 competed with the A300 and later with the A330.
At that time Airbus did not denote a different size of the same family with a dash -100 -200 and so on, but with a different A3xx number, as we still see in the A320 family. The dash than denoted a change to the frame of the same size.

The A310 is a shrink of the A300B1, B2, B4, done on the request of several airlines and perhaps to match the than introduced 767-200 in size. With a smaller wing that was never designed to carry a frame of the size of the A300 or 767-300. It had also a lighter landing gear. The rear fuselage was redesigned. Two men cockpit was introduced.
A little bit later a new version of the A300 was introduced, the A300-600. With a lot of the changes that had been introduced by the A310 including the two men cockpit. Same type rating as the A310 by the FAA.

Both the A310 and the A300 were overall lighter frames than the corresponding 767, not designed for increased range, but well designed for the MoM role, that is talked so much about today. To match the 767-300ER (later also 767-400ER) in range and capabilities, the A330 was introduced and we all know how that competition ended.
So if one talks about sales, A300 B versions, about 250 frames, A310 255 frames and A300-600 about 310 frames. That makes all together 816 frames sold. Not to bad for the first try of a twin wide body airliner.

The A300/310 is a far earlier design (EIS 1974) than the 767 (EIS 1982) and therefore perhaps not strange that it was earlier replaced. On the high end by the A330, on the low end by the A321. At that time Airbus also did convert to FBW.

In regards to the fuselage design, used unchanged on the A300/310 and A330/340, that has been sold now in nearly 3000 frames and delivered in 2620. Find a wide body fuselage design that holds better up against the test of time.




The A310 was actively promoted as a long range, transatlantic competitor to all versions of the 767, as mentioned Airbus
made a very big deal about the wider fuselage cross section and ability to carry
LD3 containers side by side.


It was a selling point for a minority of operators, the 767 vastly out ranged it
and out sold it as a result


FYI new 767’s are still rolling out of Boeing’s production line



Unlike the A310
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
RJMAZ
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:33 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Airbus offered an A330-100 in the early 2000. Keeping the advantages of the A330 like FBW, with the smaler redesigned wing of the A300. MTOW around 175 t, 210 to 260 pax, 4,200 nm range. No takers. They offered than an A330-500 as a simpler shrink of the A330, with more range than the A330-100, no takers either.

Airlines moved to single aisle for short to medium haul.

Both the A330-100 and A330-500 were a little premature. They couldn't provide a CASM advantage over the standard A330.

Waiting for the Trent 1500 would have been the key. This engine was a scaled down 787 Trent 1000 engine. The basic A300 design would have reached 5000nm range.

The A330-100 would have used 767 engines or the Trent 500. It would have struggled to compete with the CASM of the larger A330. The A330-500 was pretty much a derated A330. Without a big reduction in empty weight it's CASM wouldn't have been competitive with a standard A330.

This A300NEO with the trent 1500 would be sitting in a very good position right now. With equal engine tech of the 787 and a significant empty weight advantage it would be the perfect complement to the long haul A350.

Airbus has made plenty of strategic mistakes. They realised far too late they had a big gap underneith the A350. The A330NEO was a desperate attempt to slow down the 787, but what they really needed was the A300NEO to attack the 787 from below.
 
Adipocere
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:55 am

What’s so special about Diamond Sakha? Lot of insider talk but no stories yet ..
 
rocketPower
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:02 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
Still see them at YUL often with Air Transat. Won't be much longer I suppose.


Yep, it's one of the loudest when landing over Marcel Laurin park. Only thing worse are the 732s going up north.

I'm not even sure the AF 744s were louder.
rocketPower

Life is about enjoying being uncomfortable. If you're complacent, something is wrong!
 
soyuz
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:44 pm

I loved flying in CSA's A310s back in the 90s between Singapore and Prague, always with a short stop in the Middle East. One time I thought I was going to have a heart attack when I realised that they had started the takeoff roll without extending flaps. I literally sat there in quiet panic as I tried to come to terms with the fact that we were shortly all going to die. And after half a minute, we were up like a rocket. Wish someone would have told me about the 310's flapless takeoff ability BEFORE that flight!
 
WIederling
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:04 pm

Max Q wrote:
The A310 was actively promoted as a long range, transatlantic competitor to all versions of the 767,

"all versions" of the 767 was exactly the 767-200. nothing else existed at the time.
interesting article on dead tree Flight International comparing A310 and 767-200.
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%200397.html?search=A310%20versus%20767-200
and keep in mind that Airbus was small fry at the time.
before 1983 Airbus had delivered just 204 frames ( all non-600 versions of the A300

Max Q wrote:
FYI new 767’s are still rolling out of Boeing’s production line


Charity and el Cheapo.

overall your argument is unreasonable.
Murphy is an optimist
 
bunumuring
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:51 pm

Hey guys,
I well remember my one and only A310 flight on the one and only Australian registered A310... Sydney to Adelaide on Compass Mk1...
So glad I made he effort to book that specific flight!
Cheers,
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
airbazar
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:51 pm

seabosdca wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The same size 767-200/200ER sold slightly fewer frames. The A310-300 offered slightly more payload than the 767-200ER, but less range.


The problem was that the A310 ended up competing with the 767-300ER, not the -200ER, over range longer than the A300 could fly. Once the -300ER entered service in 1988, it was curtains for both the A310 and the 767-200ER.

IMO, that wasn't the real problem. The real problem was that Airbus was a relative unknown in the commercial aviation market and had very little market penetration.
10 years passed between the launch of the A310 and 763ER. Had Airbus not been such a new OEM, it would have sold a lot more A310's and A300's.

RJMAZ wrote:
The biggest lost opportunity was a A310NEO or A300NEO.

They did. First the A321 and then the A321NEO to replace the A310.
It seats about 20 fewer pax but it's significantly more fuel efficient :)
 
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terrificturk
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:57 pm

The A310 - the first MoM aircraft in history.
 
bgoody
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:12 pm

Air Transat still flies them.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:31 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Its combination of barely enough wing and a whole lot of engine wasn't really ideal, unless the goal was spectacular takeoffs.
...
Over long range, the 767 with its superior wing and ~20 t heavier MTOW was the better product.

You are aware, that the A310 wing demonstrated miraculous capabilities and outperformed Boeings estimations by far?

The A310 seems to have stirred up a formidable PR war between Seattle and Toulouse. All documented in the flightglobal archives:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 00394.html
Airbus gloves off as A310 is certificated
Some quotes:
- At the Farnborough Air Show last year Airbus expressed anger at the fact that it always uses Boeing's own figures to draw comparisons, whereas Boeing "apparently knows more about our aircraft than we do".
- Looking at the latest relative fuel burn chart compiled by Boeing to compare Airbus, McDonnell Douglas, Lockheed, and Boeing products, a senior Airbus marketing man declared angrily that "This has reached a situation I can only describe as grotesque, even in the most sales-oriented situation."
- A310 test results: The A310's test to certification went well. The major achievements are as follows: • It can fly 2,000ft higher than predicted, or alternatively carry 11 tonnes more weight for a given altitude. At maximum take-off weight even the highest, grossweight version can climb immediately to 37,000ft at MTOW. These improvements result from a better wing maximum lift co-efficient than was expected—3 • 1, compared with the predicted 3 • 0. • Average fuel burn is 7 to 8 per cent below prediction. • Range is greater than expected, and the A310 can fly up to Mach 0 • 81 and give the same economy level of specific fuel consumption that had been predicted for cruising at M 0 • 79. Airbus says that Boeing, in its 767 sales presentation, uses the original A310
predicted figures factored for assumed weight increases which do not exist.


https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 310%20tour
- Since these figures are unofficial, and since air temperature was in Boeing's favour while payload was to the A310's benefit, all that these numbers prove at this stage is how close the aircraft are.
- ...however, the 767 does not have the 10 per cent fuel burn advantage that Boeing claimed it might have.


https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 00499.html
Some quotes:
- Airbus set itself an A310 block fuel-saving goal of 21 per cent over an A300 flying 1,000 n.m., allied to a 10 per cent cheaper price tag
- So much for the A310 wing—a British triumph perhaps, but only one ingredient in the recipe for success.


https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 02215.html)
Boeing and Airbus: agreement impossible

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 01860.html
The A310: how good in service?
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
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seabosdca
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:56 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
You are aware, that the A310 wing demonstrated miraculous capabilities and outperformed Boeings estimations by far?


It was perfectly good for what it was, and a big improvement over the A300B1-4 wing. But it was designed to be light for short-range missions, and as a consequence it was too small to be ideal for the weights needed for longer range. Yet the engines were perfectly capable of handling more weight (as they showed on the 767) and they gave the A310 what is still the highest thrust/max weight ratio of any widebody twin.

If the A300 had had a wing with 767 span and area it might well have been superior to the 767 in every respect, and the A310 might have been unnecessary.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:05 pm

Max Q wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Max Q wrote:
A big ‘selling point’ for the A310 that turned out to be moot was its fuselage
diameter which allowed LD3 containers
to be carried side by side


This was thought to be a big advantage for
airlines operating DC10/ L1011 and B747
aircraft as it would allow the convenience
of interlining these containers between fleets



For some European airlines this may
have been a factor and a real advantage


But it wasn’t a consideration on the other
side of the Atlantic, in fact the narrower
fuselage of the 767 (and bigger wing)
significantly lowered drag and improved its
aerodynamics so much that it just blew
away the A310 on range and of course, sales


I am rather tired of this 767 blew the A310 away in sales. The 767 did not. The A310 competed with the 767-200/200ER and the 767-300 competed with the A300 and later with the A330.
At that time Airbus did not denote a different size of the same family with a dash -100 -200 and so on, but with a different A3xx number, as we still see in the A320 family. The dash than denoted a change to the frame of the same size.

The A310 is a shrink of the A300B1, B2, B4, done on the request of several airlines and perhaps to match the than introduced 767-200 in size. With a smaller wing that was never designed to carry a frame of the size of the A300 or 767-300. It had also a lighter landing gear. The rear fuselage was redesigned. Two men cockpit was introduced.
A little bit later a new version of the A300 was introduced, the A300-600. With a lot of the changes that had been introduced by the A310 including the two men cockpit. Same type rating as the A310 by the FAA.

Both the A310 and the A300 were overall lighter frames than the corresponding 767, not designed for increased range, but well designed for the MoM role, that is talked so much about today. To match the 767-300ER (later also 767-400ER) in range and capabilities, the A330 was introduced and we all know how that competition ended.
So if one talks about sales, A300 B versions, about 250 frames, A310 255 frames and A300-600 about 310 frames. That makes all together 816 frames sold. Not to bad for the first try of a twin wide body airliner.

The A300/310 is a far earlier design (EIS 1974) than the 767 (EIS 1982) and therefore perhaps not strange that it was earlier replaced. On the high end by the A330, on the low end by the A321. At that time Airbus also did convert to FBW.

In regards to the fuselage design, used unchanged on the A300/310 and A330/340, that has been sold now in nearly 3000 frames and delivered in 2620. Find a wide body fuselage design that holds better up against the test of time.




The A310 was actively promoted as a long range, transatlantic competitor to all versions of the 767, as mentioned Airbus
made a very big deal about the wider fuselage cross section and ability to carry
LD3 containers side by side.


It was a selling point for a minority of operators, the 767 vastly out ranged it
and out sold it as a result


FYI new 767’s are still rolling out of Boeing’s production line



Unlike the A310


Peddelling fake facts. As often as you promote that the A310 battled alone against the whole line up of the 767 and got blown away, it does not become a fact. The 767 was and is a family of frames and the A310 is part of a family of frames.

The A310 competed with the 767-200 versions. A310 sold 255 and the 767-200 all versions sold 249.
 
boeingguy1
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:19 pm

What a fun little plane... only flew her once, JFK-MBJ on Air Jamaica. What a livery. "Champagne service" in Economy... oh, the good ole days...
"...Gatwick South!? Id rather crash in Brighton!"
 
WIederling
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:31 pm

seabosdca wrote:
But it was designed to be light for short-range missions, and as a consequence it was too small to be ideal for the weights needed for longer range..


You are making up "facts" here.

It was never sold as a light short ranger. It was sold as a longer range (than) A300.
Only the last A300-600 iteration had more range ( and higher MTOW ) than the A310-300.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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seabosdca
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:49 pm

WIederling wrote:
You are making up "facts" here.

It was never sold as a light short ranger. It was sold as a longer range (than) A300.
Only the last A300-600 iteration had more range ( and higher MTOW ) than the A310-300.


The A310 (and A300-600/600R) was a development of the A300 done to a budget. Airbus did the best they could with what they had to make a longer-range variant to take advantage of ETOPS. But the wing shape was still based on the A300, and optimized for short range, just reprofiled.

If Airbus had designed the A310 from scratch, it would have had a wing of 767 size or bigger. And the wing size is the fundamental reason why the A300-600/A310 did not last as long in service as the 767's ER variants.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:56 pm

Erebus wrote:
Will this be the shortest widebody ever produced or will the 797 come in even shorter?


It was only 73" shorter than the 767-200.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:46 pm

seabosdca wrote:
WIederling wrote:
You are making up "facts" here.

It was never sold as a light short ranger. It was sold as a longer range (than) A300.
Only the last A300-600 iteration had more range ( and higher MTOW ) than the A310-300.


The A310 (and A300-600/600R) was a development of the A300 done to a budget. Airbus did the best they could with what they had to make a longer-range variant to take advantage of ETOPS. But the wing shape was still based on the A300, and optimized for short range, just reprofiled.

If Airbus had designed the A310 from scratch, it would have had a wing of 767 size or bigger. And the wing size is the fundamental reason why the A300-600/A310 did not last as long in service as the 767's ER variants.


The A310 got a new wing, based on the A300 wing, but with a higher aspect ratio, similar span and considerable less area. The range limitation was down to a lighter frame and less MTOW. IMO Airbus did build the frame they wanted to build. Both A310 and A300 were build to be highly cappable at medium range.

Airbus answereed the call for more range in that segment with the A330.
 
ewt340
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:18 pm

It's too small for International flights, too big for domestic flights.
Range is too short for most long-haul flights, too much for domestic flights.

If it had A300-600 capacity and A310 range. It would probably be a great combo for airlines back in the day.
 
sgbroimp
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:33 pm

If memory serves, the 310 allowed LH to create a second FRA-JFK service without using a bigger 747 or DC10. This service was a "businessman's special" leaving FRA around 5 PM and leaving JFK at 9 PM or so, so we could get a full day's work in at both ends. I want to say 1984 or so. This became LH 404/405 which exists today. There was one problem, however, and that was the fact it was range challenged. If the winds were "normal" all went fine, but with big headwinds she had to put into Bangor for fuel if I recall. When the 340 came out the range problem was solved of course. One of the most (in)famous stories of the 310 was the LH Flt 592 "starter's pistol" hijacking.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:11 pm

Not an airline.. But I believe FedEx currently has the largest fleet of A310s currently in service. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
luckyone
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
WIederling wrote:
You are making up "facts" here.

It was never sold as a light short ranger. It was sold as a longer range (than) A300.
Only the last A300-600 iteration had more range ( and higher MTOW ) than the A310-300.


The A310 (and A300-600/600R) was a development of the A300 done to a budget. Airbus did the best they could with what they had to make a longer-range variant to take advantage of ETOPS. But the wing shape was still based on the A300, and optimized for short range, just reprofiled.

If Airbus had designed the A310 from scratch, it would have had a wing of 767 size or bigger. And the wing size is the fundamental reason why the A300-600/A310 did not last as long in service as the 767's ER variants.


The A310 got a new wing, based on the A300 wing, but with a higher aspect ratio, similar span and considerable less area. The range limitation was down to a lighter frame and less MTOW. IMO Airbus did build the frame they wanted to build. Both A310 and A300 were build to be highly cappable at medium range.

Airbus answereed the call for more range in that segment with the A330.

Much like the 777, wasn’t the A330 initially developed as a medium-range transcontinental aircraft—basically a DC-10-10/Tristar replacement? Developed in tandem with the A340, which was intended to be the long hauler. Then the 777 engines redefined what a twin can do. It wasn’t until later in the program, particularly the A332 that the aircraft stated to see significant range developments, no?
 
airzona11
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:57 pm

boeingguy1 wrote:
What a fun little plane... only flew her once, JFK-MBJ on Air Jamaica. What a livery. "Champagne service" in Economy... oh, the good ole days...


That is my favorite A310!
 
Cunard
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:19 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Not an airline.. But I believe FedEx currently has the largest fleet of A310s currently in service. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.


Fed Ex only have 5 A310F remaining in service and these are soon to be phased out.

In comparison Fed Ex currently have 68 A3006RF in service which are gradually being replaced by the new build B767F.

Air Transat is currently the only airline with a substantial amount of A310s in service which they have 7 examples of and which are to be replaced by the incoming A321LRs.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:25 pm

bgoody wrote:
Air Transat still flies them.


You don't say, wow are you telling us something that at least 99.99% of us on a.net are already aware of!

If and I mean if you have bothered to actually read this thread from the very beginning like most people do you would have seen that Air Transat has been mentioned on numerous occasions.

There are far too many here on a.net who seem to jump into a thread and make comments that have clearly been stated already, it pays to read the thread from the very beginning if your going to add any comments.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
WIederling
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:41 pm

luckyone wrote:
It wasn’t until later in the program, particularly the A332 that the aircraft stated to see significant range developments, no?



Well the A330(-300) started out as a 300-400 pax plane for up to 5000nm
The A340-300 was offered as a 3 class 300 pax frame going out to 6850nm.
The A340-200 was offered as a 3 class 260 pax frame going a bit further to 7200nm.
( flight global archive 1987..89 )
some time later the A340 MTOW was upped quite a bit to 275t
the shrink A330-200 was offered when sfc gains and MTOW markup allowed to go beyond that magic range.

baseline: A300-600R 250..350 pax up to 4000nm
Murphy is an optimist
 
juliuswong
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:32 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
I well remember my one and only A310 flight on the one and only Australian registered A310... Sydney to Adelaide on Compass Mk1...
So glad I made he effort to book that specific flight!
Cheers,
Bunumuring


I guess you mean VH-YMI of short-lived Compass Airlines, ex-Wardair of Canada. MSN 425. Her stay in Down Under was not long (six months if I remember correct) before returning to Canada to join Canadian Airlines and still going strong today with Canadian Armed Forces 32 years old bird!
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:33 am

Two of my favorite transatlantic flights were on OK A310s. Business class service was old-school and elegant.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:33 am

airbazar wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The same size 767-200/200ER sold slightly fewer frames. The A310-300 offered slightly more payload than the 767-200ER, but less range.


The problem was that the A310 ended up competing with the 767-300ER, not the -200ER, over range longer than the A300 could fly. Once the -300ER entered service in 1988, it was curtains for both the A310 and the 767-200ER.

IMO, that wasn't the real problem. The real problem was that Airbus was a relative unknown in the commercial aviation market and had very little market penetration.
10 years passed between the launch of the A310 and 763ER. Had Airbus not been such a new OEM, it would have sold a lot more A310's and A300's.

RJMAZ wrote:
The biggest lost opportunity was a A310NEO or A300NEO.

They did. First the A321 and then the A321NEO to replace the A310.
It seats about 20 fewer pax but it's significantly more fuel efficient :)



The A321 is far more than 20 seats to the A310. Air Transat seats 12 @ 34" & 232 (9 abreast) at 32-33". If you swtiched to 8 abreast that would give Air Transat 12/212 at the same pitch & seat width for 39 more seats than a A321neo (4 doors.) 36/32" & 8abreast A310 34"/32-33" You cannot properly compare the 2 with the majority of seats at a 2-3" tighter pitch for the A321.
 
Moosefire
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:20 am

rjsampson wrote:
Not an airline.. But I believe FedEx currently has the largest fleet of A310s currently in service. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.


Definitely an airline ;)
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
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adambrau
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:33 am

I flew PA107 BRU-LHR in summer 1990 on an A310 - connected to PA001 to JFK on a 747.

I also had a swap on PA102 JFK-LHR from 747 to A310 in October 1990 - continued on same flight number to TXL via HAM on B727.

Loved the PA A310's - much better than the usual 747's at the end. RIP PA.

April 1991 Pan Am LHR routes shifted to UA.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
Cunard
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 am

Moosefire wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Not an airline.. But I believe FedEx currently has the largest fleet of A310s currently in service. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.


Definitely an airline ;)


:-) :-) :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: The Abating Airbus: The A310 Fades into History

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:54 am

juliuswong wrote:
I guess you mean VH-YMI of short-lived Compass Airlines, ex-Wardair of Canada. MSN 425. Her stay in Down Under was not long (six months if I remember correct) before returning to Canada to join Canadian Airlines and still going strong today with Canadian Armed Forces 32 years old bird!



http://www.aussieairliners.org/a300/vh-ymi/vhymi.html


It's been the only Aussie registered A310 I believe.

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