impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:33 am

remcor wrote:
One thing I would disagree with is that there is no evidence. There is not complete evidence but there is evidence. There’s the tape and there’s the important fact that only 2-3 days after the incident she is “no longer working at the FAA”.

I agree that there should be strong caveats on speculation, but this thread initially was sure that she had suffered a stroke or a medical emergency. That is also speculation.

So if we’re going to speculate on a medical problem I think it’s also entirely reasonable to speculate that it was misconduct. And weighing the evidence, I would say there’s more evidence (though not at all conclusive) that this was due to misconduct. That evidence, namely, is the fact that she was either terminated or resigned 2 days after the incident - this does not make sense to me if one suffered a severe medical issue.


Alcoholism is a medical condition. Medical personnel responded to this incident. Can it be both misconduct and medical? Sure...I’d call it that. If you know anyone who knows anyone who works LAS (and I think it was posted here plenty), the info you will hear is that she was hammered, and it wasn’t her first run in with alcohol issues. Now if someone can just get the FAA to admit it....that’d be good. But the FAA doesn’t want that because it looks pretty bad. I’m sure a few FOIA requests might help, but where it crosses the medical line, some of that information may be protected. The swift resignation may make it easier to sweep under the rug.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9490
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:45 am

remcor wrote:
if we’re going to speculate on a medical problem I think it’s also entirely reasonable to speculate that it was misconduct.

No, not its not, your logic is false.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
DeltaB717
Posts: 1687
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:49 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:01 am

remcor wrote:
One thing I would disagree with is that there is no evidence. There is not complete evidence but there is evidence. There’s the tape and there’s the important fact that only 2-3 days after the incident she is “no longer working at the FAA”.

We should be careful about speculation, but this thread initially was sure that she had suffered a stroke or a medical emergency. That is also speculation.

So if we’re going to speculate on a medical problem I think it’s also entirely reasonable to speculate that it was misconduct. And weighing the evidence, I would say there’s more evidence (though not at all conclusive) that this was due to misconduct. That evidence, namely, is the fact that she was either terminated or resigned 2 days after the incident - this does not make sense to me if one suffered a severe medical issue.


Actually, I would argue that the slow progression of her presentation is far more indicative of a stroke or some other medical episode. Likewise, as others have already said, terminating a government employee for misconduct is nowhere near that quick; and perhaps, just perhaps, having recovered from (or begun to recover from) a medical episode such as a stroke, and having the advice of her medical practitioners, this woman (being a reasonable and sensible) person has taken the very difficult decision that she cannot continue in her role.

Have we completely lost the ability to give people the benefit of the doubt?
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:21 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
remcor wrote:
One thing I would disagree with is that there is no evidence. There is not complete evidence but there is evidence. There’s the tape and there’s the important fact that only 2-3 days after the incident she is “no longer working at the FAA”.

We should be careful about speculation, but this thread initially was sure that she had suffered a stroke or a medical emergency. That is also speculation.

So if we’re going to speculate on a medical problem I think it’s also entirely reasonable to speculate that it was misconduct. And weighing the evidence, I would say there’s more evidence (though not at all conclusive) that this was due to misconduct. That evidence, namely, is the fact that she was either terminated or resigned 2 days after the incident - this does not make sense to me if one suffered a severe medical issue.


Actually, I would argue that the slow progression of her presentation is far more indicative of a stroke or some other medical episode. Likewise, as others have already said, terminating a government employee for misconduct is nowhere near that quick; and perhaps, just perhaps, having recovered from (or begun to recover from) a medical episode such as a stroke, and having the advice of her medical practitioners, this woman (being a reasonable and sensible) person has taken the very difficult decision that she cannot continue in her role.

Have we completely lost the ability to give people the benefit of the doubt?

Talk to people who know her (or who know any controllers at LAS). There is no benefit of the doubt. The fact is she was drunk and it wasn’t her first alcohol related incident. Hopefully these facts make it out, but since alcoholism is a medical condition, she wasn’t arrested, and she resigned and wasn’t terminated, it may just successfully get swept under the rug. Sad for her regardless, but I feel a lot less sad about it than I did when I listened to it and thought it was a stroke.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:40 am

Tugger wrote:
remcor wrote:
if we’re going to speculate on a medical problem I think it’s also entirely reasonable to speculate that it was misconduct.

No, not its not, your logic is false.

Tugg


No YOU’RE wrong! :lol:

So tell me professor, of the evidence that exists, how it’s not speculation to say that it was a stroke but it is speculation to say that it was inebriation.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:54 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
remcor wrote:
Actually, I would argue that the slow progression of her presentation is far more indicative of a stroke or some other medical episode. Likewise, as others have already said, terminating a government employee for misconduct is nowhere near that quick; and perhaps, just perhaps, having recovered from (or begun to recover from) a medical episode such as a stroke, and having the advice of her medical practitioners, this woman (being a reasonable and sensible) person has taken the very difficult decision that she cannot continue in her role.

Have we completely lost the ability to give people the benefit of the doubt?


So she suffers a stroke or some other severe medical issue, and then almost immediately quits her federal government job with awesome medical benefits and long term disability? She do this from her hospital bed? Wouldn’t she at least want to use up her paid sick days? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

We don’t know her name, there’s no additional harm to speculating on this site, since everyone who read about this outside this site is already speculating. Speculation genie is out of the bottle, it started the instant the FAA told everyone she doesn’t work there anymore. The fact that FAA felt the need to mention this also to me implies that misconduct occurred.

Look the other option is to just say “well must have been a medical problem, could not possibly have been anything else”. Which seems a bit delusional to me.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:50 am

impilot wrote:
Talk to people who know her (or who know any controllers at LAS). There is no benefit of the doubt. The fact is she was drunk and it wasn’t her first alcohol related incident. Hopefully these facts make it out, but since alcoholism is a medical condition, she wasn’t arrested, and she resigned and wasn’t terminated, it may just successfully get swept under the rug. Sad for her regardless, but I feel a lot less sad about it than I did when I listened to it and thought it was a stroke.


Curious, did you hear this from an actual ATC source? Someone else on this thread said something very similar.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9490
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:59 pm

remcor wrote:
Tugger wrote:
remcor wrote:
if we’re going to speculate on a medical problem I think it’s also entirely reasonable to speculate that it was misconduct.

No, not its not, your logic is false.

Tugg


No YOU’RE wrong! :lol:

So tell me professor, of the evidence that exists, how it’s not speculation to say that it was a stroke but it is speculation to say that it was inebriation.

Evidence.

Evidence exists that the profession takes YEARS to get into, is not an easy one, and that the people that enter it take the job seriously and are very professional in what they do. Evidence exists that bringing alcohol into that environment and drinking while on the job to the point of complete inebriation is next to non-existent.

The fact that controllers are human and suffer the normal spectrum of human failings and that it is entirely possible for one to be a raging alcoholic is one thing. But per your statement we are taking "reasonable speculation" and based on the type of people, training they go through, and importantly the environment and other people they work with, it is unreasonable to equally consider that the person was getting smashed drunk while working their shift in the the tower versus having a medical emergency which all the symptoms in evidence fit perfectly with a medical issue.

That two things are possible does not make them equal or worthy or equally treatment in consideration. And it was the use of the word "reasonable" that to me at least, has you viewing them each as a viable and potentially likely option.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:48 pm

That's not evidence, that's a stereotype. But if we want to call it evidence there's also evidence that many doctors, lawyers, sometimes airline pilots and other professionals have and continue to destroy their lives with alcohol or drugs. People are people, can't put them on a pedestal because of the profession they're in. I thought it was a stroke too, simply because the Youtube video says she "suffered a stroke", a video that 283k people have viewed and 1.8k people commented on despite the only evidence of a stroke is that she kind of sounded like she was having one. But she also kind of sounded drunk, and her immediate termination/resignation tips the balance in that direction for me + member comments. It's not a court and we aren't impugning the name of the controller, so we may as well debate what the truth might be.
 
D L X
Posts: 12515
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:48 am

remcor wrote:
That's not evidence, that's a stereotype. But if we want to call it evidence there's also evidence that many doctors, lawyers, sometimes airline pilots and other professionals have and continue to destroy their lives with alcohol or drugs. People are people, can't put them on a pedestal because of the profession they're in. I thought it was a stroke too, simply because the Youtube video says she "suffered a stroke", a video that 283k people have viewed and 1.8k people commented on despite the only evidence of a stroke is that she kind of sounded like she was having one. But she also kind of sounded drunk, and her immediate termination/resignation tips the balance in that direction for me + member comments. It's not a court and we aren't impugning the name of the controller, so we may as well debate what the truth might be.

I’m all for speculation on this site. I’m not for speculating, and then not accepting that it’s speculation.

Without outside information from the rumors in the ATC community, medical event fits the scenario much better than getting drunk while on the job. The event progressed: she was fine, and then she was incapacitated. So, either she was having a medical event (which naturally progresses), or she started the shift sober and drank while in the cab, with NO ONE noticing the alcohol. Yes, the latter is possible, and might even be what happened, so we shouldn’t rule it out. But that there are two possibilities does not remotely make them equally likely.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:55 pm

D L X wrote:
remcor wrote:
That's not evidence, that's a stereotype. But if we want to call it evidence there's also evidence that many doctors, lawyers, sometimes airline pilots and other professionals have and continue to destroy their lives with alcohol or drugs. People are people, can't put them on a pedestal because of the profession they're in. I thought it was a stroke too, simply because the Youtube video says she "suffered a stroke", a video that 283k people have viewed and 1.8k people commented on despite the only evidence of a stroke is that she kind of sounded like she was having one. But she also kind of sounded drunk, and her immediate termination/resignation tips the balance in that direction for me + member comments. It's not a court and we aren't impugning the name of the controller, so we may as well debate what the truth might be.

I’m all for speculation on this site. I’m not for speculating, and then not accepting that it’s speculation.

Without outside information from the rumors in the ATC community, medical event fits the scenario much better than getting drunk while on the job. The event progressed: she was fine, and then she was incapacitated. So, either she was having a medical event (which naturally progresses), or she started the shift sober and drank while in the cab, with NO ONE noticing the alcohol. Yes, the latter is possible, and might even be what happened, so we shouldn’t rule it out. But that there are two possibilities does not remotely make them equally likely.


Why would she quit the next day, then? She would likely be eligible to retain her job on leave until she cleared her medical, and if not; they likely would have found an admin position or training type position.

People don’t leave jobs that have excellent pay, benefits, and retirement plans when they have a medical scenario. In fact, in a medical situation the FAA would likely encourage you to stick around.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
Bradin
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:09 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
D L X wrote:
remcor wrote:
That's not evidence, that's a stereotype. But if we want to call it evidence there's also evidence that many doctors, lawyers, sometimes airline pilots and other professionals have and continue to destroy their lives with alcohol or drugs. People are people, can't put them on a pedestal because of the profession they're in. I thought it was a stroke too, simply because the Youtube video says she "suffered a stroke", a video that 283k people have viewed and 1.8k people commented on despite the only evidence of a stroke is that she kind of sounded like she was having one. But she also kind of sounded drunk, and her immediate termination/resignation tips the balance in that direction for me + member comments. It's not a court and we aren't impugning the name of the controller, so we may as well debate what the truth might be.

I’m all for speculation on this site. I’m not for speculating, and then not accepting that it’s speculation.

Without outside information from the rumors in the ATC community, medical event fits the scenario much better than getting drunk while on the job. The event progressed: she was fine, and then she was incapacitated. So, either she was having a medical event (which naturally progresses), or she started the shift sober and drank while in the cab, with NO ONE noticing the alcohol. Yes, the latter is possible, and might even be what happened, so we shouldn’t rule it out. But that there are two possibilities does not remotely make them equally likely.


Why would she quit the next day, then? She would likely be eligible to retain her job on leave until she cleared her medical, and if not; they likely would have found an admin position or training type position.

People don’t leave jobs that have excellent pay, benefits, and retirement plans when they have a medical scenario. In fact, in a medical situation the FAA would likely encourage you to stick around.


Isn't it true that some medical conditions just get worse with time?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:14 pm

Bradin wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
D L X wrote:
I’m all for speculation on this site. I’m not for speculating, and then not accepting that it’s speculation.

Without outside information from the rumors in the ATC community, medical event fits the scenario much better than getting drunk while on the job. The event progressed: she was fine, and then she was incapacitated. So, either she was having a medical event (which naturally progresses), or she started the shift sober and drank while in the cab, with NO ONE noticing the alcohol. Yes, the latter is possible, and might even be what happened, so we shouldn’t rule it out. But that there are two possibilities does not remotely make them equally likely.


Why would she quit the next day, then? She would likely be eligible to retain her job on leave until she cleared her medical, and if not; they likely would have found an admin position or training type position.

People don’t leave jobs that have excellent pay, benefits, and retirement plans when they have a medical scenario. In fact, in a medical situation the FAA would likely encourage you to stick around.


Isn't it true that some medical conditions just get worse with time?


It is true; but would you quit the next morning without seeking input from several doctors? Would you discuss it with your employer and attempt to find a solution? I can’t see someone quitting the next morning. It would be reasonable to be on leave for a few weeks or a month before deciding the best course of action is to quit. Something doesn’t smell right.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:25 pm

If it looks like a duck....
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9490
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:57 pm

Where do we have confirmation that she quit? She may have quit her position due to health reasons (or for other reasons of course).

But do we know for sure she has quit the FAA ATC program completely?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
Where do we have confirmation that she quit? She may have quit her position due to health reasons (or for other reasons of course).

But do we know for sure she has quit the FAA ATC program completely?

Tugg

https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/inca ... a-1525525/
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9490
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:39 pm

impilot wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Where do we have confirmation that she quit? She may have quit her position due to health reasons (or for other reasons of course).

But do we know for sure she has quit the FAA ATC program completely?

Tugg

https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/inca ... a-1525525/

I saw that but have not seen anything to support it. I have looked and the most recent reports on it do not reference that she has resigned from the FAA/her job. Even in the article the FAA basically did not confirm that happened as far as I can tell. For all I know someone "inside" told the reporter something and I have no idea if it was accurate or accurately reported. Could be 100% accurate but it is the only report I have seen noting this departure.

That is why I asked about confirmation.

Edit: scratch that, found another source:
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nationa ... 70171.html

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1756
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:44 pm

Tugger wrote:
Where do we have confirmation that she quit? She may have quit her position due to health reasons (or for other reasons of course).

But do we know for sure she has quit the FAA ATC program completely?

Tugg


I posted it last week that it was confirmed by a U.S. Representative's office that she had resigned. I can't find the article, but if you scroll up and just look for my avatar you'll see the link.
xx
 
D L X
Posts: 12515
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:20 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
D L X wrote:
remcor wrote:
That's not evidence, that's a stereotype. But if we want to call it evidence there's also evidence that many doctors, lawyers, sometimes airline pilots and other professionals have and continue to destroy their lives with alcohol or drugs. People are people, can't put them on a pedestal because of the profession they're in. I thought it was a stroke too, simply because the Youtube video says she "suffered a stroke", a video that 283k people have viewed and 1.8k people commented on despite the only evidence of a stroke is that she kind of sounded like she was having one. But she also kind of sounded drunk, and her immediate termination/resignation tips the balance in that direction for me + member comments. It's not a court and we aren't impugning the name of the controller, so we may as well debate what the truth might be.

I’m all for speculation on this site. I’m not for speculating, and then not accepting that it’s speculation.

Without outside information from the rumors in the ATC community, medical event fits the scenario much better than getting drunk while on the job. The event progressed: she was fine, and then she was incapacitated. So, either she was having a medical event (which naturally progresses), or she started the shift sober and drank while in the cab, with NO ONE noticing the alcohol. Yes, the latter is possible, and might even be what happened, so we shouldn’t rule it out. But that there are two possibilities does not remotely make them equally likely.


Why would she quit the next day, then? She would likely be eligible to retain her job on leave until she cleared her medical, and if not; they likely would have found an admin position or training type position.

People don’t leave jobs that have excellent pay, benefits, and retirement plans when they have a medical scenario. In fact, in a medical situation the FAA would likely encourage you to stick around.

Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job. A massive stroke frequently looks like being drunk and cans have over a year to recover ::as best you can::. People don’t usually fully recover. They’re learning how to talk and walk again and are learning their new disabled bodies. They have way bigger fish to fry than figuring out an administrative position to fall into while they recover.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, though. bringing liquor into the cab and getting smashed is absolutely a possibility. But outside the relay of rumors in the ATC community, it doesn’t fit the facts as well as medical incident.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:13 pm

D L X wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
D L X wrote:
I’m all for speculation on this site. I’m not for speculating, and then not accepting that it’s speculation.

Without outside information from the rumors in the ATC community, medical event fits the scenario much better than getting drunk while on the job. The event progressed: she was fine, and then she was incapacitated. So, either she was having a medical event (which naturally progresses), or she started the shift sober and drank while in the cab, with NO ONE noticing the alcohol. Yes, the latter is possible, and might even be what happened, so we shouldn’t rule it out. But that there are two possibilities does not remotely make them equally likely.


Why would she quit the next day, then? She would likely be eligible to retain her job on leave until she cleared her medical, and if not; they likely would have found an admin position or training type position.

People don’t leave jobs that have excellent pay, benefits, and retirement plans when they have a medical scenario. In fact, in a medical situation the FAA would likely encourage you to stick around.

Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job. A massive stroke frequently looks like being drunk and cans have over a year to recover ::as best you can::. People don’t usually fully recover. They’re learning how to talk and walk again and are learning their new disabled bodies. They have way bigger fish to fry than figuring out an administrative position to fall into while they recover.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, though. bringing liquor into the cab and getting smashed is absolutely a possibility. But outside the relay of rumors in the ATC community, it doesn’t fit the facts as well as medical incident.


But quitting relieves her of her employer healthcare (that’s important while recovering from this supposed stroke), pension, and since this happened on the job: sick leave while recovering. She elected to immediately stop being paid and end her healthcare coverage. Does that sound like a normal reaction to an on the job stroke?
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
D L X
Posts: 12515
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:57 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
D L X wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

Why would she quit the next day, then? She would likely be eligible to retain her job on leave until she cleared her medical, and if not; they likely would have found an admin position or training type position.

People don’t leave jobs that have excellent pay, benefits, and retirement plans when they have a medical scenario. In fact, in a medical situation the FAA would likely encourage you to stick around.

Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job. A massive stroke frequently looks like being drunk and cans have over a year to recover ::as best you can::. People don’t usually fully recover. They’re learning how to talk and walk again and are learning their new disabled bodies. They have way bigger fish to fry than figuring out an administrative position to fall into while they recover.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, though. bringing liquor into the cab and getting smashed is absolutely a possibility. But outside the relay of rumors in the ATC community, it doesn’t fit the facts as well as medical incident.


But quitting relieves her of her employer healthcare (that’s important while recovering from this supposed stroke), pension, and since this happened on the job: sick leave while recovering. She elected to immediately stop being paid and end her healthcare coverage. Does that sound like a normal reaction to an on the job stroke?

Those are good arguments, truly, but depend on it being the case that she has severed her relationship with the FAA, not just left her post as an ATC. You ultimately may be correct.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:25 pm

Just curious - are we completely ignoring the comments by posters with a bit more inside information? Not saying to take them as gospel but their “smoke” probably means there’s a “fire” - I.e. she did this to herself.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:27 am

Tugger wrote:
Where do we have confirmation that she quit? She may have quit her position due to health reasons (or for other reasons of course).

But do we know for sure she has quit the FAA ATC program completely?

Tugg


Dude she was removed, didn’t quit. You don’t get your picture hanging in every security shack and guard building outside and inside every FAA facility without misconduct and removal from the Administration.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:35 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Just curious - are we completely ignoring the comments by posters with a bit more inside information? Not saying to take them as gospel but their “smoke” probably means there’s a “fire” - I.e. she did this to herself.



There’s a lot that cannot be shared by federal employees and also anytime an event happens there is damage control. Anyone citing a “source” from a major news outlet e.g. NBC, CNN, FOX..... has got to be kidding if they think it’s a real source. It would be awful for the public to find out that an employee of the FAA working at a core 30 airport was on a last chance program and showed up to work completely incapacitated. Also let’s keep in mind these “sources” make wrong reports and incorrect statements daily regarding anything in aviation including airlines, aircraft types, incorrectly stating where an event happens ( tarmac everything happens on the tarmac lmao ) it happens all the time. We can all make assumptions on here and some are going to continue to deny the obvious reality of the situation. Someone stated it above earlier, no one sacrifices the incredible benefits controllers have after they had a “medical issue” that would need insurance and time off by resigning.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4046
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:30 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Just curious - are we completely ignoring the comments by posters with a bit more inside information? Not saying to take them as gospel but their “smoke” probably means there’s a “fire” - I.e. she did this to herself.

ATC is a small community. Word goes out quick.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15486
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:01 am

D L X wrote:
Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job. A massive stroke frequently looks like being drunk and cans have over a year to recover ::as best you can::. People don’t usually fully recover.


Wouldn't there be a requirement for the FAA to make a reasonable workplace accommodation to enable her to continue? If not as a controller, in some other capacity? For example, at my company we've had people who were flight attendants suffer medical incidents that required a workplace accommodation, intended solely to protect their employment status, such as moving from inflight to reservations. They remained employed by the company, but not at their former salary since they moved into an entirely new position, and were subject to the pay rules of that new role.

I'd imagine the FAA would have been required to look for a similar accommodation for this controller if she were medically unable to continue as a controller, and that accommodation process typically takes weeks to complete, if not longer, as the employer's medical department is usually working with the employee's physician and so on.

For the relatively quick resolution that took place here, I'd imagine this person either resigned in lieu of termination, or was terminated.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
portcolumbus
Posts: 1659
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:10 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:15 am

D L X wrote:
Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job.


ATC's don't resign because you have a debilitating medical condition pop up, you'd file for a medical retirement and go through the process. Whether it gets approved or you get assigned work depends on several factors. Why are you commenting on things you clearly have no knowledge about?

- ex-Vegas controller
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:14 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
D L X wrote:
Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job.


ATC's don't resign because you have a debilitating medical condition pop up, you'd file for a medical retirement and go through the process. Whether it gets approved or you get assigned work depends on several factors. Why are you commenting on things you clearly have no knowledge about?

- ex-Vegas controller


That’s what we all do on here. Its a discussion board.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
D L X
Posts: 12515
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:31 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
D L X wrote:
Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job.


ATC's don't resign because you have a debilitating medical condition pop up, you'd file for a medical retirement and go through the process. Whether it gets approved or you get assigned work depends on several factors. Why are you commenting on things you clearly have no knowledge about?

- ex-Vegas controller

Come on dude. You know me from your 18 years here. I’m not claiming to know. I’m not even saying the folks that conclude she was drunk are wrong. But you have to admit that a healthy dose of skepticism is not just warranted but -required- when accusing someone of a crime like this.

The posters saying she was sacked tell a compelling, believable story. Beyond a reasonable doubt? Not based on stuff you read in an internet chat board, even if that board is as esteemed as this one. That’s why I asked for corroboration: I want to believe it. Don’t take it personally that I verify my trust.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4046
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:33 am

EA CO AS wrote:
D L X wrote:
Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job. A massive stroke frequently looks like being drunk and cans have over a year to recover ::as best you can::. People don’t usually fully recover.


Wouldn't there be a requirement for the FAA to make a reasonable workplace accommodation to enable her to continue? If not as a controller, in some other capacity? For example, at my company we've had people who were flight attendants suffer medical incidents that required a workplace accommodation, intended solely to protect their employment status, such as moving from inflight to reservations. They remained employed by the company, but not at their former salary since they moved into an entirely new position, and were subject to the pay rules of that new role.

I'd imagine the FAA would have been required to look for a similar accommodation for this controller if she were medically unable to continue as a controller, and that accommodation process typically takes weeks to complete, if not longer, as the employer's medical department is usually working with the employee's physician and so on.

For the relatively quick resolution that took place here, I'd imagine this person either resigned in lieu of termination, or was terminated.

100% spot on. The FAA can’t bounce a Union member that fast for almost anything especially a medical issue.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:27 pm

32andBelow wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Just curious - are we completely ignoring the comments by posters with a bit more inside information? Not saying to take them as gospel but their “smoke” probably means there’s a “fire” - I.e. she did this to herself.

ATC is a small community. Word goes out quick.


What I'm curious about is how many actual sources there are for this information? For example doing a Google search I see that the 0.32 BAC number seems to have been first mentioned on a Reddit post. It was then mentioned here and on a couple other posts. Are people getting this 0.32 number from primary sources or is everyone just quoting that first mention on Reddit?

So when you say it's a small community does that mean you talked to someone who actually works there or read it off another post?
 
National757
Posts: 484
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:05 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:42 pm

remcor wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Just curious - are we completely ignoring the comments by posters with a bit more inside information? Not saying to take them as gospel but their “smoke” probably means there’s a “fire” - I.e. she did this to herself.

ATC is a small community. Word goes out quick.


What I'm curious about is how many actual sources there are for this information? For example doing a Google search I see that the 0.32 BAC number seems to have been first mentioned on a Reddit post. It was then mentioned here and on a couple other posts. Are people getting this 0.32 number from primary sources or is everyone just quoting that first mention on Reddit?

So when you say it's a small community does that mean you talked to someone who actually works there or read it off another post?


If the FAA does not release the BAC number, how do primary sources obtain the information? I get the impression the FAA wants this whole thing to go away.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:31 am

National757 wrote:
If the FAA does not release the BAC number, how do primary sources obtain the information? I get the impression the FAA wants this whole thing to go away.


May be true, but I'm just trying to find out whether we have multiple people who either work at the FAA, or has a friend or such that works at the FAA, that directly heard this. Or if everyone's "friend" at the FAA - where word apparently moves fast - actually ends up being just one guy on a Reddit board that we're all pointing to from different directions.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8069
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:40 am

remcor wrote:
National757 wrote:
If the FAA does not release the BAC number, how do primary sources obtain the information? I get the impression the FAA wants this whole thing to go away.


May be true, but I'm just trying to find out whether we have multiple people who either work at the FAA, or has a friend or such that works at the FAA, that directly heard this. Or if everyone's "friend" at the FAA - where word apparently moves fast - actually ends up being just one guy on a Reddit board that we're all pointing to from different directions.


We have some actual, no kiddin', controllers who post on here -- apparently only so newbies can question whether they're real.

I think this thread should be closed since it's unlikely we will get any actual new information.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:59 am

D L X wrote:
portcolumbus wrote:
D L X wrote:
Perhaps because the medical issue is something from which she cannot recover to do her job.


ATC's don't resign because you have a debilitating medical condition pop up, you'd file for a medical retirement and go through the process. Whether it gets approved or you get assigned work depends on several factors. Why are you commenting on things you clearly have no knowledge about?

- ex-Vegas controller

Come on dude. You know me from your 18 years here. I’m not claiming to know. I’m not even saying the folks that conclude she was drunk are wrong. But you have to admit that a healthy dose of skepticism is not just warranted but -required- when accusing someone of a crime like this.

The posters saying she was sacked tell a compelling, believable story. Beyond a reasonable doubt? Not based on stuff you read in an internet chat board, even if that board is as esteemed as this one. That’s why I asked for corroboration: I want to believe it. Don’t take it personally that I verify my trust.


I think the missing part of the “reasonable doubt” expectation is questioning what’s to be gained by the people apparently on the inside saying she was a repeat offender and was once again under the influence? If this were the JT610 thread, I’d be wary of even the more esteemed posters due to the extreme nature of the topic. Not that I question the information being given, per se, but in some cases the motivations. In this thread? Not so much.

Ymmv. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:02 am

wjcandee wrote:
remcor wrote:
National757 wrote:
If the FAA does not release the BAC number, how do primary sources obtain the information? I get the impression the FAA wants this whole thing to go away.


May be true, but I'm just trying to find out whether we have multiple people who either work at the FAA, or has a friend or such that works at the FAA, that directly heard this. Or if everyone's "friend" at the FAA - where word apparently moves fast - actually ends up being just one guy on a Reddit board that we're all pointing to from different directions.


We have some actual, no kiddin', controllers who post on here -- apparently only so newbies can question whether they're real.

I think this thread should be closed since it's unlikely we will get any actual new information.


In the old airliners.net you could add info to your profile that said how you were involved in the airplanes business, if at all. There was a field that specifically asked it. Since the upgrade generally can’t get that from peoples profiles unfortunately.
Last edited by remcor on Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
remcor
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:25 am

Re: FAA Makes Staffing Policy Changes After Vegas Controller Found Incapacitated

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:04 am

Deleted duplicate

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos