Seems like the most random route ever. SWF is an ex-military base airport in New York that is basically a nowhere airport.

Seems like the most random THREAD ever.

Norwegian flies the route because it’s apparently popular and profitable. It could also be the reason why JetBlue, American Eagle, Delta Connection, and Allegiant fly to SWF. Or why FedEx and DHL have operations there.

Or perhaps that the Hudson Valley currently has a booming business economy.

And SWF isn’t a ‘former’ military airport. It still houses the 105th Air National Guard, flying a fleet of C-17s and C-130s.

And, let’s see, the airfield is straddled by two interstate highways, hardly ‘nowhere.’

Any other questions?

I’ve used SWF when flying from EDI with D8. Great airport, quick to get through and the journey on the bus to Manhattan isn’t too bad at all.

Some of the routes are a little strange, but for low fares people will use SWF. Although somewhat rural and Newburgh being a not particularly desireble city, Rockland, westchester and Putnam counties have a large population and are fairly wealthy. Demand is being stimulated. Norwegian is already the biggest foreign airline at JFK

The drive to JFK is expletive nightmare. No
one should begin/end a trip to Europe (or anywhere else) on the Van Wyck.

The drive to EWR is marginally better.

Both airports are old, confusing messes profone to delays...with expensive long term parking that involves long rides on unreliable intra airport trains and busses. And thats before the TSA.

Its not hard to compete with JFK or EWR...just need easier, cheaper, nicer

Why does Ryanair fly to Paris-Beauvais, or to Frankfurt-Hahn? They are cheaper for the carrier to use than the major airports, and it's easier to get gate/stands space & time slots.

SWF isn't nowhere, but it is an odd place for international arrivals. Count the international carriers that use it vs. JFK and EWR. As for why domestic carriers would use it, that's pretty obvious - look at the size and income of the immediate catchment area that avoids NYC traffic.

Imagine TPAC carriers flying into San Bernardino instead of LAX.

Norwegian markets it as a NYC airport, and also markets a bus service to the PA Bus Terminal in Manhattan alongside as the Stewart Airport Express. Seeing the plug for the Woodbury Common outlets toward the lower part of the page, I actually first heard of the outlets when Norwegian introduced the second daily DUB flight, marketing the outlets as an idea for a shopping day-trip (fly in on the first daily, shop around, then fly back on the redeye). Living in California it'd hardly ever make sense for me to do a trip like that, but me being aware of it is their marketing at work.

I've read from other users that Norwegian's flights out of SWF also attract folks from upstate whether for the low fares, avoiding JFK/EWR, or other reasons.

Whether it's another way into NYC or to the Hudson valley region, it seems to do well enough for Norwegian's 737 stations in the northeast US, at least in comparison to PVD and BDL from the remaining routes.

Yes, dumb thread.

FYI, SWF is featured in the new Lost-ish tv show *Manifest*.

I’ll take SWF over JFK anyway personally

Overall a lot of airlines are starting to use secondary airports for lower fares as others mentioned. It’s just like Frontier flying out of TTN or Bristish Airways starting service to Charleston (granted that route fares won’t be that low). SWF was a perfect choice and helped change the aviation game for competition. Sometimes random is good. I live in Philly and my doctor even said this summer she had planned on flying out of SWF to Dublin because of the fares being so cheap.

They have too many planes and need places to fly them and chasing low yielding TATL traffic with 7M8 require leaving from a low fee airport like SWF. Notice how their flights with premium class go to JFK?

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Actually I'm a bit surprised Norwegian uses LAX for Los Angeles instead of Ontario. It would easily work for them, given that there is a Metrolink line near the airport. A bus hauling passengers between Ontario and Rancho Cucamonga or Upland is easy to arrange and then passengers can take the Metro to downtown Los Angeles (Union Station). Actually it's more convenient than the shuttle bus from LAX to Aviation/LAX Station at the Green line from where you have to make several transfers to get to Union Station.

I'm not at all surprised. People don't come to LA to use public transit to get around. Just not feasible. Most Europeans coming to LA recognize that and use rental cars, taxis, or ride shares. Additionally, Ontario is really too far away from the places most visited want to go and the areas they want to stay. You can plan a trip to NYC and only use public transit. You'd be crazy to try the same thing in LA.

Stop being so condescending! It’s not a dumb thread it’s informative, because th challenge for Norwegian is making secondary European to secondary US work in long haul. That’s a little different from what Ryanair et al do as they now tend to fly from primary city airport to primary city airport but for less. A move away from HHN to FRA, PIK to GLA, not abandoning secondary but not growing them at the same rate at all.
It’s a much smaller risk in short haul if you are strapped for cash at the end of your holiday and Ryanair cancel your flight and the next one is days away. Credit card time and easyJet or Chunnel booking time. If you’re strapped for cash at SWF and D8 cancel your flight, you’re in a whole different lot of trouble....
Buying an on the day long haul legacy ticket for the family is horrendously pricey, and you have to GET to JFK/EWR etc. Norwegian’s service recovery has been woeful, anyone caught out badly won’t be flying with them again, nor will their friends. The dropping of EDI and BFS also indictates that flying long haul loco in a 737 or A320 to secondary airports may well not be sustainable.

I shot this short video of a Norwegian 787 flying out of Stewart. I don’t know if it was a substitution for a 737, or perhaps a training flight.
https://youtu.be/Mcsg1BsqV2I

I don’t know why, in spite of what has been said in the forum. NORWEGIAN caters to cheapskates willing to inconvenience themselves extremely to save a few bucks (the same cheapskates who stay in Airbnb’s and make neighborhood unaffordable for actual tenants). I live in Brooklyn. If I were to take a flight from Stewart I’d need to leave my home 4-5 hours before departure to ensure I’d get to the terminal on time using public transit. Meanwhile I can get to JFK door to door in under an hour on the subway or 35-45 minutes in a taxi. Plus, I’d probably have to take an extra day off from work to travel to/from Stewart. Meanwhile, I can work in Midtown a full ya and head to JFK (or EWR for that matter) and depart for my destination. I can’t do itfrom SWF.

mia wrote:

I don’t know why, in spite of what has been said in the forum. NORWEGIAN caters to cheapskates willing to inconvenience themselves extremely to save a few bucks (the same cheapskates who stay in Airbnb’s and make neighborhood unaffordable for actual tenants). I live in Brooklyn. If I were to take a flight from Stewart I’d need to leave my home 4-5 hours before departure to ensure I’d get to the terminal on time using public transit. Meanwhile I can get to JFK door to door in under an hour on the subway or 35-45 minutes in a taxi. Plus, I’d probably have to take an extra day off from work to travel to/from Stewart. Meanwhile, I can work in Midtown a full ya and head to JFK (or EWR for that matter) and depart for my destination. I can’t do itfrom SWF.

What’s your point? Obviously SWF isn’t being marketed to people in your neighborhood. If I lived in Brooklyn, Stewart wouldn’t be on my radar either. But it is convenient for people in the the northern NYC suburbs, northern New Jersey, western Connecticut, northeastern PA. As for residents/workers in midtown Manhattan, yes, it’s a viable option with dedicated bus service.

I too am tired of these random threads. Not because I think the questions aren’t relevant, just that there’s a lack of fresh topics.

So to add to the thread some background:

I grew up in Rockland county, south of Orange where SWF is and north of NJ. My dad was an HVAC engineer in the Aviation division with the PANYNJ , Port Authority. He worked on the central refrigeration plant when the airlines were building their own terminals at JFK. They designed them but the PANYNJ ran the show

Had huge amount of family that lived in New Windsor and it was a scenic 45min drive, a stones throw from SWF so I was there a lot growing up in the 60’s and 70’s

As far as I can remember, my dad talked of a high speed train connecting SWF TO NYC, along with serving as a commuter line as the suburb growth was exploding. IBM was just across the river from SWF. We were always looking to move there with the caveat being a decent commute.

SWF was even back then was in the cards to be the area’s 4th major airport.

Pan Am has there pilot lhands on training there too. Heaven seeing the 747’s as they did touch and gos.

The recession of the 70’s and later IBM closing their offices and the base dramatically cut back hit Orange County much much harder than Rockland. The area being a long commute to NYC relied too heavily how them. Later on, maybe late 80’s housing prices plummeted in Orange.

The train is still there and I don’t think the travel time has reduced much at all 40 years later.

Thanks for indulging my reminiscing

Dedicated bus service? So you mean if I miss the 4pm bus I won’t be able to catch the next one? (Source: https://web.coachusa.com/info/shortline ... xpress.asp?)

At least with JFK EWR you can always catch the next option, SWF you can’t.

Dedicated bus service? So you mean if I miss the 4pm bus I won’t be able to catch the next one? (Source: https://web.coachusa.com/info/shortline ... xpress.asp?)

At least with JFK EWR you can always catch the next option, SWF you can’t.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

ei a330-200 wrote:

I'm not at all surprised. People don't come to LA to use public transit to get around. Just not feasible. Most Europeans coming to LA recognize that and use rental cars, taxis, or ride shares. Additionally, Ontario is really too far away from the places most visited want to go and the areas they want to stay. You can plan a trip to NYC and only use public transit. You'd be crazy to try the same thing in LA.

I don't agree. Recently I've visited Los Angeles myself, I even flew there on Norwegian. Got myself a TAP card with a 7-day pass on it and saw everything I needed to see on public transport. Only shame is that the FlyAway bus isn't TAP compatible, so I first had to pay for a ticket to Union Station where I bought my TAP card to get on the Metro Gold line to my AirBnB address which was near Heritage Square station.

Places most visited don't matter as the first thing you go to when you arrive is the place where you'll be staying. It doesn't matter if that's a hotel, hostel, AirBnB, family address, etc. You want to get there to drop your luggage, freshen up, maybe get some sleep. Sightseeing comes later. And unless you're very wealthy, your place of staying won't be near Santa Monica or Venice or anywhere near that. And if you are wealthy, you wouldn't be flying Norwegian. Most people flying Norwegian look for an affordable place of staying which is mostly found further inland around Union Station. And as said, Union Station is easy to get to from Ontario. Looking at the distance Union Station is about in the middle between LAX and Ontario, both about equally far. Still that's where most passengers on that plane will be heading.

Given that Ontario is most likely cheaper than LAX when it comes to landing and handling fees, why wouldn't Norwegian fly to Ontario?

I'll admit I had to use Uber from LAX (I would've used the Metro but it was already closed for the night), and my friends drove me to a few places, but the rest of the time I walked and took public transit. Its obviously not NYC or anywhere in Europe, but I'll give Los Angeles credit for their transit system considering most people associate Los Angeles with cars and traffic.

More on topic, I considered SWF when I flew to Europe this summer but it just seemed too complicated and not worth the savings (if there were any savings). Keeping in mind I was flying from MSP to it wouldn't be a simple transfer, but my friend did it.

skipness1E wrote:

The dropping of EDI and BFS also indictates that flying long haul loco in a 737 or A320 to secondary airports may well not be sustainable.

EDI is supposed to be due to taxes and fees. Cuts to other non-US airports also occurred. So there definitely is a fine-line to profitability.
Belfast is supposed to be seasonal but we will see.

I am surprised that Frontier has not made an attempt at adding fright to SWF and doing a domestic version of sorts of Norwegian.
I have thought that Allegiant would do this too. Only reason I think they haven't was because they got into EWR.

If you look on a map you will see the airport is actually pretty well located off several interstate highways. It has pretty good access to Northern Jersey(Sussex Bergen, Passaic counties) Connecticut, Westchester, White plains, even Albany and areas south in the Hudson Valley. There are millions of people the airport is closer than JFK. The traffic and convenience make it pretty good actually.

If you live in Bergen county NJ for example Stewart is so much easier then trying to get to JFK all the traffic and $16 tolls over the btraffic packed gwb, parking the whole experience is easy and low stress. I have and would use SWF again.


All these things then throw in direct bus access into NYC with a guranteed connection and it's doing really well.

mooseofspruce wrote:

Norwegian markets it as a NYC airport, and also markets a bus service to the PA Bus Terminal in Manhattan alongside as the Stewart Airport Express. Seeing the plug for the Woodbury Common outlets toward the lower part of the page, I actually first heard of the outlets when Norwegian introduced the second daily DUB flight, marketing the outlets as an idea for a shopping day-trip (fly in on the first daily, shop around, then fly back on the redeye). Living in California it'd hardly ever make sense for me to do a trip like that, but me being aware of it is their marketing at work.

I've read from other users that Norwegian's flights out of SWF also attract folks from upstate whether for the low fares, avoiding JFK/EWR, or other reasons.

Whether it's another way into NYC or to the Hudson valley region, it seems to do well enough for Norwegian's 737 stations in the northeast US, at least in comparison to PVD and BDL from the remaining routes.

That's interesting to note. This whole thing just seemed odd to me because EWR existed if they wanted to fly to a non-JFK New York airport. Norwegian DOES have flights to EWR, though, so it's not like they're trying to avoid the higher competition. I don't think putting the 787 on this route will happen anytime soon, though.

SWF is run by the PANYNJ, the same organization that runs EWR, JFK and LGA. SWF has the room, no slot restrictions, likely cheaper in operations fees (critical to Norwegian), close to but not heavily involved with JFK/EWR/LGA flows, very few other flights to interfere with so likely good on-time performance. The PANYNJ made favorable deals with Norwegian to encourage them as needs to get some traffic out of EWR and JFK.

[quote="cedarjet"]
I live in Surrey, southwest of London,/quote]


Right because airlines consistently fill flights with people from the immediate surrounding area.

mia wrote:

I don’t know why, in spite of what has been said in the forum. NORWEGIAN caters to cheapskates willing to inconvenience themselves extremely to save a few bucks (the same cheapskates who stay in Airbnb’s and make neighborhood unaffordable for actual tenants). I live in Brooklyn. If I were to take a flight from Stewart I’d need to leave my home 4-5 hours before departure to ensure I’d get to the terminal on time using public transit. Meanwhile I can get to JFK door to door in under an hour on the subway or 35-45 minutes in a taxi. Plus, I’d probably have to take an extra day off from work to travel to/from Stewart. Meanwhile, I can work in Midtown a full ya and head to JFK (or EWR for that matter) and depart for my destination. I can’t do itfrom SWF.

So because it’s inconvenient for you it is for everyone? I live in Fairfield County in CT. SWF means I can work all day too and still catch the flight. Meanwhile JFK or EWR means I have to take a day off.

Not to mention, who gives a damn what other people do with their money? I may fly legacy carriers for the most part, but I’d take Norwegian so I can spend money on my trip, not just a bigger seat for 6 hours

jfklganyc wrote:

The drive to JFK is expletive nightmare. No
one should begin/end a trip to Europe (or anywhere else) on the Van Wyck.

The drive to EWR is marginally better.

Both airports are old, confusing messes profone to delays...with expensive long term parking that involves long rides on unreliable intra airport trains and busses. And thats before the TSA.

Its not hard to compete with JFK or EWR...just need easier, cheaper, nicer

From Seinfeld, Elaine's famous quote "No one has ever beaten the Van Wyck". Truer words have never been spoken.

I flew into JFK a couple nights ago and decided to add a few miles and take the Throgs Neck, no traffic at all around 8pm. I might use that instead of the Whitestone/Van Wyck in the future.

You sounds like you live near me. I'm just over the border in CT. Fairfield County, one of the wealthiest counties in the country , although my income drags it down

SWF is hugely popular as an alternative and everyone here is familiar with Norwegian now, which is why they are double daily to Dublin now.

I'll add some more. the dedicated bus service is timed for the Norwegian flights. If I'm correct, you purchase it as a package, mostly this is done on the European side.

The airport is so small, it would be almost impossible to miss the bus, unless you were detained by customs/immigration

Let's not forget SWF and NY political powers offered Norwegian Huge incentives and tax cuts to add service from the airport.
Also it's USA catchment is everyone outside the JFK/EWR area. Convenient for those not wanting to treak NYC traffic and parking fees for a Europe vacation.

Flyguy

MIflyer12 wrote:

Why does Ryanair fly to Paris-Beauvais, or to Frankfurt-Hahn? They are cheaper for the carrier to use than the major airports, and it's easier to get gate/stands space & time slots.

SWF isn't nowhere, but it is an odd place for international arrivals. Count the international carriers that use it vs. JFK and EWR. As for why domestic carriers would use it, that's pretty obvious - look at the size and income of the immediate catchment area that avoids NYC traffic.

Imagine TPAC carriers flying into San Bernardino instead of LAX.

China Airlines seems to have gotten a head start on that with flights to Ontario (ONT).

The SWF-DUB flights are often the go-to option for Irish expats in NYC (a pretty sizable population) as they are almost universally the cheapest option. The bus to Stewart is reliable, as is the bus that meets arriving passengers. The flights from DUB pre-clear, so no delays with customs/immigration. Even if the bus isn't there to meet you, a Lyft to Beacon station on the Metro North is $25.

The Stewart express is light years ahead of the Newark Express - the shoddiest airport bus I've experienced anywhere. Many of the buses have broken, cigarette-stained seats, it only comes sporadically (I've waited over an hour on numerous occasions), they hold each bus up for as long as 20 minutes while the sole employee goes around the bus and processes each passenger's payment individually (with foreign credits often refusing to work), the bus stops are badly sign-posted and the staff really don't care.

JFK is only marginally better - the Air Train deposits you at the subway (or the LIRR, but that's quite a bit more expensive) where there are two ticket machines for dozens of tourists who can't figure out why the machine is asking for their U.S. zip code . The station is filthy, the subway maps less than intuitive, and there are rats on the tracks. There is a local bus (the Q10) that will take you to the subway direct from the airport, but it only takes exact change in coins (I don't know how many tourists carry 11 quarters with them...) and there is no way to make change anywhere near the bus stop (which is only at Terminal 5). I don't know why New York's international gateways are so unwelcoming to international tourists.

wnflyguy wrote:

Let's not forget SWF and NY political powers offered Norwegian Huge incentives and tax cuts to add service from the airport.
Also it's USA catchment is everyone outside the JFK/EWR area. Convenient for those not wanting to treak NYC traffic and parking fees for a Europe vacation.

Flyguy

There we have it. Half of the Ryanair recipe lowcosts use.

The other ingredient is the spin time. A 737 class aircraft can be spun and back on the run way in thirty minutes at a smaller, quieter airport. That increases the time the plane is earning and not sat at a gate with an APU running or in a queue for number 10 for departure etc....

Congested airports are money losers. If you can balance all those ingredients, a secondary place like SWF can be a profitable option for a lean, quick operator.

Tracks wrote:

The SWF-DUB flights are often the go-to option for Irish expats in NYC (a pretty sizable population) as they are almost universally the cheapest option. The bus to Stewart is reliable, as is the bus that meets arriving passengers. The flights from DUB pre-clear, so no delays with customs/immigration. Even if the bus isn't there to meet you, a Lyft to Beacon station on the Metro North is $25.

.

Lots of those Irish Expats live just to the north of NYC in cities such as Yonkers, which makes for an easier drive to SWF.

mia wrote:

Dedicated bus service? So you mean if I miss the 4pm bus I won’t be able to catch the next one? (Source: https://web.coachusa.com/info/shortline ... xpress.asp?)

At least with JFK EWR you can always catch the next option, SWF you can’t.

Norweigans dedicated bus service is a guaranteed connection. Hundreds of thousands of people miss flights out of EWR and JFK a year due to delays etc or taking "the next train". Have you seen the year NJ Transit has been having? Huge delays and train cancellations all over. The Norweigan bus service from Manhattan is one of the reasons the flights are so popular with leisure travellers.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Veigar wrote:

That's interesting to note. This whole thing just seemed odd to me because EWR existed if they wanted to fly to a non-JFK New York airport. Norwegian DOES have flights to EWR, though, so it's not like they're trying to avoid the higher competition. I don't think putting the 787 on this route will happen anytime soon, though.

For me it's kind of a mystery why Norwegian has some flights into Newark as it's known to be the most expensive airport in the whole USA, even more expensive than JFK which isn't exactly cheap either. This makes fares out of Newark are a good deal more expensive than fares out of Stewart, which is far cheaper.

Say if you live in Hackensack or Paterson, you could drive to Newark which by distance isn't that far, but a slow drive given the traffic. Then you'd pay a good deal more for an airline ticket. Or you could drive to Stewart, a bit further away but less traffic so it goes faster. And you'd pay less for your airline ticket. In the end, Stewart might still be the favourable option.

Lets not forget how much you can save on parking! A weeks parking at SWF is way cheaper and you can walk to the plane! EWR and JFK long term parking is unaffordable for a two week vacation and the buses are so delayed and nasty. SWF is a way less stressful experience all over. The longer drive can easily be compensated for in traffic, less wait for luggage, cleaner, less delays, shorter security, walk to plane parking, for millions of potential customers in NY, CT, and NJ.

Tracks wrote:

The SWF-DUB flights are often the go-to option for Irish expats in NYC (a pretty sizable population) as they are almost universally the cheapest option.

Not only for Irish expats. For next year I have a 4-day trip planned to NYC, I'm flying EIN-DUB-SWF and back SWF-DUB-EIN. EIN-DUB is on FR and DUB-SWF on DY.

This combi is cheaper than DY AMS-JFK, plus you get to avoid the dreadful airports AMS and JFK.

True. Why does anyone fly to Narita?

mia wrote:

I don’t know why, in spite of what has been said in the forum. NORWEGIAN caters to cheapskates willing to inconvenience themselves extremely to save a few bucks (the same cheapskates who stay in Airbnb’s and make neighborhood unaffordable for actual tenants). I live in Brooklyn. If I were to take a flight from Stewart I’d need to leave my home 4-5 hours before departure to ensure I’d get to the terminal on time using public transit. Meanwhile I can get to JFK door to door in under an hour on the subway or 35-45 minutes in a taxi. Plus, I’d probably have to take an extra day off from work to travel to/from Stewart. Meanwhile, I can work in Midtown a full ya and head to JFK (or EWR for that matter) and depart for my destination. I can’t do itfrom SWF.

Geez mate! When I got out of bed this morning and read your post, I just had to check - but yes we still live in a ‘free’ world and I can make ‘personal’ decisions based on what suits me as an individual. As a retired military veteran, I’m immensely proud of the fact that YOU can do what YOU want to do, and not take a 4-5 hour drive, or miss the 4pm bus. You’ll get no complaints from me in whatever Airport or Bus you choose to use, as it's none of my business. My grandparents went to War in Europe and the Pacific to defend the very reason we can all live freely and have the freedom to live as we choose and make CHOICES that suit us as individuals. If I wish to be a ‘cheapskate’ or spend all my hard earned money on fridge magnets then you’ll have to forgive me for my sins, but the day this ‘right’ is taken away from me (and the rest of western society), I think you’ll have bigger things to worry about than which airport you, I or anybody else flies out of.

KICT wrote:

True. Why does anyone fly to Narita?

Narita City has a lot to offer. Flyers Bar, The Cage, The Barge Inn, The Jetlag Bar, The Spiral Staircase, Sapporo, Asahi, Kirin, Sake, Shochu, Chilli Pepper Soup Noodle, Gyoza, Kajiki-Yaki, Okonomiyaki, Karaoke, Naritasan Shinshoji Temple, etc, etc.
Oh! and Tokyo is an hour away on the slow train, or bus...