rbavfan
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:17 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
One of the other factors in AA keeping these planes so long as that "patch jobs" were easier to handle than on Boeing aircraft. Remember Aloha 243? Douglas (and MD) aircraft were designed to be easier to patch, hence somewhat needing less time in repairs, and extending their lives.

This obviously doesn't hold to true to electronics and other parts of the airplane, but it did extend their service life. But nothing lasts forever, and the gradual replacement of these birds is eventually go finish. I will miss the 2x3 seating!!


Aloha 243 had nothing to due with a "Patch Job." It was due to corrosion & metal fatigue along the rivet line, not along a patch.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:09 am

496TFS wrote:
The last of the AA MD-80s will be retired by early next year. The MD-80 simulators have not and will not be upgraded for the Extended Envelope Training required by the FAA in 2019. Good thing, because MD-80 pilots would be stunned to know what happens when an MD-80 actually stalls.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L2CsO-Vu7oc


Well....you mean when a completely-cross-controlled 717 breaks loose as a result of an intentionally-induced stall on a test flight (albeit one that they didn't quite expect to occur right then. "Ooops.") Bear Smith, a Douglas test pilot, does a smooth job of the recovery, although I suspect the engineers in the back probably weren't as calm as the cockpit crew was.
 
4engines4lnghll
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:15 am

Arion640 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Polot wrote:
DFW. Except for a maybe a few remaining outliers that is only where they fly out of now.


Yes you're right. DFW. The only remaining MD-80 routes with AA that do not touch DFW are ORD to MSP, STL and RDU. I won't be surprised if ORD looses the MD-80 by the end of this year, because with a fleet of only 30 aircraft if not less (26 by the end of 2018/early 2019) it doesn't makes sense to keep two bases. However, there are rumors that once a week, on Saturdays only, DFW-ORD might see one MD-80 daily, then the airplane would fly to STL or TUL and then back home to DFW. That's one triangle trip, with three legs, that would occur once weekly. Again, that's just a rumor, it hasn't been officially announced. Other than that, no more MD-80 at ORD.

A handful of them might still be in the fleet by 2020, but definitely not 2021. By then the youngest MD-80 will be 20! And the retirement of the 738 will begin.


Thanks for that. Whats the best day trip route from DFW perhaps? Do they fly to IAH still from DFW?


Yes, IAH still sees the S80 a lot. ELP,LBB, and MFE, are a few and maybe the only routes in Texas AA still operates the airplane on.
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KICT
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:34 am

TriL1011Star wrote:
They needed to go well over a decade ago.

Why? So you could then start a thread complaining about your 10+ year old A320 flight?
People are saying. Believe me.
 
747superliner
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:38 am

I for one, have absolutely no complaints flying in an MD 80. I have flown in the AA MD-82/-83 several times now, and in the DL MD-88 once.

OKC is one of the last remaining airports to get the MD 80 from AA, and it also gets the MD-88 from DL. Fun aircraft to fly in, and that engine spool up sound never gets old.
 
questions
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:22 am

Detroit313 wrote:
What are you talking about? AA doesn't even have 30 MD80s left.

Delta still has hundreds of MD80s and MD90s.


Someone stated in a previous post that DL planned to retire all next year. Is that true? Does DL have hundreds of MD88/90s to retire? What aircraft type(s) does DL have on order to replace them other than the A220?
 
FAT5DEP
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:30 am

I remember years back on the way home from DSM my daughter got sick on an RJ. We arrived at DFW and boarded an MD80 for FAT. My wife, my daughter and I sat in the back for that late night flight. They were exhausted.
The drone of the engines and having my daughter sleep on my lap is an MD80 experience I will never forget. I love those Douglas airplanes.
Oh, that I had wings like a dove! I would fly away and be at rest.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:40 am

There is no airframe life limit for the MD-80 so it's just a matter of materials and experience to fix it and fly it.
American may well be flying this warhorse Just because they're Paid for and that CAN. None of you are in their Finance department so NONE of you would know..
 
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flee
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:15 am

Allegiant should complete phasing out their MDs by the end of this year.

See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 16-453385/
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:57 pm

I love how all the "experts" on here think paying a $1MM a month for a new aircraft is somehow cheaper than flying an older paid for aircraft.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:14 pm

questions wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
What are you talking about? AA doesn't even have 30 MD80s left.

Delta still has hundreds of MD80s and MD90s.


Someone stated in a previous post that DL planned to retire all next year. Is that true? Does DL have hundreds of MD88/90s to retire? What aircraft type(s) does DL have on order to replace them other than the A220?


Well, no, Delta doesn't have hundreds of MD-88s and MD-90s -- and never did. The MD-88 fleet was at 116 active frames before they started recent retirements, and the MD-90s at 65.

The announced commitment is to retire all DL MD-88s in 2020. AFAIK, there has been no announcement for the full retirement of the MD-90s.

Delta has said it's using 321s to replace MD-88s. There may be the MD-88/320/738/321 shuffle, but that's what they've said (and posted in investor updates).

Notionally the A220s on order are upgauging some E75/CR9 routes. (That certainly describes their first A220 route announcements.) Maybe if they use their -300 substitution rights, or exercise options for -300s, will some A220s replace MD-88s.
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:42 pm

TriL1011Star wrote:
They needed to go well over a decade ago. They are consistently unreliable and have been for years. Every other airline retired them long ago. And AA has been saying for many years they are going to get rid of them. Why has it taken them so long?


Financial woes, perhaps? AA made the calculation that flying an old, put free and clear fleet, was better for the bottom line, the spending money on new planes. That strategy can work for a while, but it costs more and more to keep an older fleet flying. Sooner or later, the equation favors those who modernized.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:48 pm

rbavfan wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
One of the other factors in AA keeping these planes so long as that "patch jobs" were easier to handle than on Boeing aircraft. Remember Aloha 243? Douglas (and MD) aircraft were designed to be easier to patch, hence somewhat needing less time in repairs, and extending their lives.

This obviously doesn't hold to true to electronics and other parts of the airplane, but it did extend their service life. But nothing lasts forever, and the gradual replacement of these birds is eventually go finish. I will miss the 2x3 seating!!


Aloha 243 had nothing to due with a "Patch Job." It was due to corrosion & metal fatigue along the rivet line, not along a patch.


Absolutely correct; however, the repair that would have need to have been done had they caught it in time would most probably have been an easier repair on the DC-9 than on a Boeing. This is what I read in MacArthur Job's book on this air crash and the study afterwards. I should have added that portion originally.
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:12 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Absolutely correct; however, the repair that would have need to have been done had they caught it in time would most probably have been an easier repair on the DC-9 than on a Boeing. This is what I read in MacArthur Job's book on this air crash and the study afterwards. I should have added that portion originally.


Those four books by Macarthur Job - Air Disaster, Vol 1 to 4 - are easily the most informative aviation books you can buy. Learning about the crash, the accident investigation and what happened for all those different disasters is fascinating stuff. The fact they're easy to read and well illustrated helps too! Highly recommended - there's more info here about them.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:47 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
I love how all the "experts" on here think paying a $1MM a month for a new aircraft is somehow cheaper than flying an older paid for aircraft.


Generally agreed..an example of a million a month buys a lot of Jet-A..presuming crew and other costs are generally equal. The part where costs of delayed or cancelled flights, mis-connects, general customer satisfaction start to add up.

I'd take the comfort of the MD-80 (2 seat side) over the 738 any day..but I also want to leave and arrive on time. AA is smart to keep the remaining fleet mostly Texas or Oklahoma oriented. Easy to sub one in for an hour flight..keeping it simple towards the end. I'm hoping to catch one more MD80 early next year..just for posterity!
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:24 pm

Tan Flyr wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
I love how all the "experts" on here think paying a $1MM a month for a new aircraft is somehow cheaper than flying an older paid for aircraft.


Generally agreed..an example of a million a month buys a lot of Jet-A..presuming crew and other costs are generally equal. The part where costs of delayed or cancelled flights, mis-connects, general customer satisfaction start to add up.

I'd take the comfort of the MD-80 (2 seat side) over the 738 any day..but I also want to leave and arrive on time. AA is smart to keep the remaining fleet mostly Texas or Oklahoma oriented. Easy to sub one in for an hour flight..keeping it simple towards the end. I'm hoping to catch one more MD80 early next year..just for posterity!

The break even to buy new versus a MD-80 is only about 6 hours of flying per day (on average). For replacing an A320CEO, about 8.5 hours of flying per day.

There is a reason G4 flies the A319s more than the MD-80s.

Notice how Allegiant's CASM ex-fuel dropped from 6.56 to 6.43. That is thanks to the A319/A320 replacing MD-80s.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1022303745

Here is an old thread comparing fuel expenses:

viewtopic.php?t=1355819 or 2374 kg/hr for A319 (not much more for A320) or 2420 for 73G vs. 3060 for the MD080.


Now let us look at today's fuel prices:
https://ycharts.com/indicators/jet_fuel_spot_price

$1.559 today (in bulk).
So (3060-2374)*2.2/6.8*1.559=$346 per hour of fuel savings.

The A319 has much lower maintenance costs per flight hour than the MD-80s old school wait until there is a problem and then tear everything apart to find it.
Break even on fuel is $150,000/346=433 hours per month at today's jet-A pricing (Used A319 vs. MD-80). So on fuel alone... Yea, about that 14 hours/day. So it does take maintenance savings to pay.

But when we look in detail (see last post in following)
viewtopic.php?t=743237

For 12 months ending Mar 2004 for US based reporting airlines....from Eclat

Average Block Hour costs (ave seats):

MD80 - $2,725 (134)
A320 - $2,387 (147)
737-800/900 - $2,498 (153)


But this means retiring the MD-80 when it needs maintenance.

To replace a MD-80 with new ($350,000 per month)... Well buy a NEO and save 15% more fuel!.
The NEO saves $514/hour per my math. Or break even (before an even larger maintenance savings) at 680 hours/month or 22 hours per day... Oh wait.
Now we see why it isn't always wise to buy new. The heaviest utilization narrowbodies are 13 to 14 hours per day (some peak a little more, but we need to go over a year).

However, the MD-80 requires upgrades for the latest FAA rules. Those upgrades are not going to be cheap (over $1 million per aircraft).

Just to complete, Allegiant has found the A319's maintenance barely above half the MD-80 maintenance costs:
https://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/07 ... -to-fleet/

Allegiant is hoping to place the A319s on routes that are just marginally profitable for the MD-80 aircraft. The A319 is 25% cheaper per block hour with fuel and 40% lower on maintenance than the MD-80 aircraft. Also, the range of the A319 is greater with a 3,600 nm vs just 1400 nm, allowing Allegiant to look at longer route opportunities. At this time, the airline is not planning on increasing fleet utilization.

Well, Allegiant has since increases Airbus fleet utilization because the lower cost per seat allowed more city pairs to be profitable. :hyper:

I'm not saying replace today. But there are reasons the A319s are going cheap (barely lower cost per flight than the A320, so airlines such as Easyjet are not extending leases). Thus leasing companies are having to discount heavily good use examples to find new homes for them. That more than anything is ending the MD-80 days.

Note: WN bid up prices on the 73G keeping it from being an obvious MD-80 replacement. I consider it equal. But Airbus had several A319 airlines have leases expire (Cebu Pacific and Easyjet are the main ones) that drove down A319 resale value to be quite the bargain.

So the MD-80s are doomed when big maintenance bills come due or when the new avionics are required. Cest la vie.

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lightsaber
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:33 pm

A little more as Allegiant is currently posting the best MD-80 information.
http://ir.allegiantair.com/news-release ... al-results
So 49 available seat miles per gallon to the low 80s (going to A320/A319)

Do recall they are retiring the MD-80s this month "immediately after Thanksgiving travel period."

I'll ask again, when do the AA MD-80s need maintenance? That really determines the life of the 30 left in service.

I'm curious how long either AA or DL keep servicing MD-80s. Obviously that will depend on how many maintenance contracts they receive. I just wish I knew such information; for I believe when the two cease maintaining the MD-80 (for others, not just themselves), the plane will be retired in mass by others.
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777PHX
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:38 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
I love how all the "experts" on here think paying a $1MM a month for a new aircraft is somehow cheaper than flying an older paid for aircraft.


If that were actually cheaper, you wouldn't see airlines rushing to get rid of them. I'm going to presume those airlines have a better idea of how to run themselves than you do.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:11 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Absolutely correct; however, the repair that would have need to have been done had they caught it in time would most probably have been an easier repair on the DC-9 than on a Boeing. This is what I read in MacArthur Job's book on this air crash and the study afterwards. I should have added that portion originally.


Those four books by Macarthur Job - Air Disaster, Vol 1 to 4 - are easily the most informative aviation books you can buy. Learning about the crash, the accident investigation and what happened for all those different disasters is fascinating stuff. The fact they're easy to read and well illustrated helps too! Highly recommended - there's more info here about them.


Easily among the most researched and well-written examples of forensic science explained for an educated reader. Highly technical, but well worth the effort.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:43 pm

Lightsaber: As I know you know, the fuel savings on the 319 vs the 80 are more pronounced the longer the route. That's why all these average numbers aren't really sufficient for management's decision as to fleet utilization (and why the remaining AA MD80s are being put on the routes that they are). On the shorter runs, the teensy fuel savings militate towards getting the remaining value out of the paid-for asset. Now, as you point out, if you throw in dispatch reliability and maintenance savings, which one isn't going to be able to quantify until the replacement aircraft has some in-service experience at that airline, then that probably dooms the MD80 in the end. One reason that the 319 has been such a boon for Allegiant is that its electronic maintenance recordkeeping, if you will, has forced maintenance issues to be addressed immediately. No matter what management was saying about commitment to safety there, the fact is that there is zero ability to hide anything. Management had had the pilots write up absolutely the most trivial issues on both fleets for some time, but obviously the complete-accountability imposed by the data systems on the Airbus has had a significant effect on operational reliability -- perhaps more so than at other carriers. When management realized this, the Douglas product was toast. The Allegiant folks are excellent bean-counters, and they realized that in their operation, the economics -- for a perhaps-unexpected reason -- vastly favored the Airbus. The unintended consequences of bringing the Airbus aboard were hugely favorable to the economics of their operation.
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:49 pm

jagraham wrote:
Finally, Pratt dropped support of the JT8D. That was the death knell for the MD80. AA and DL will park them all by the end of next year.


Delta's will not all be parked by the end of next year.
 
smartplane
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:54 pm

And the de-rated engines, seen as orphan variants in some countries, offer meaningful reductions in maintenance and fuel consumption compared to the already good A320 and 321.
 
Yonderlust
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:47 pm

I think the S80s are not as capable in higher winds. My most memorable flight was 3 attempts to land at ABQ sitting in F. We took rather sharp turns and descents only to end up cross-wise with the runway. We eventually diverted to Lubbock and made a successful landing at ABQ on our 4th attempt around 1:00am. That was fun.
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:39 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Lightsaber: As I know you know, the fuel savings on the 319 vs the 80 are more pronounced the longer the route. That's why all these average numbers aren't really sufficient for management's decision as to fleet utilization.

Agreed. But a fleet must also be flexible enough to justify the crew training.


wjcandee wrote:
One reason that the 319 has been such a boon for Allegiant is that its electronic maintenance recordkeeping, if you will, has forced maintenance issues to be addressed immediately.
The electronic predictive maintenance takes personal decision out of the process (pilot, management) and thus reduces costs. It not only forces issues to be addressed, it has issues addressed before it becomes more costly (damages adjoining parts).

For now, the MD-80s are economical enough as my prior numbers noted. Yes, shifting mission length will shift the relative costs (A32x aircraft have a lower certified cycle life, but a greater certified hour life which shifts the mission profit based on length to longer missions).

In a past life, I was an analyst. Put in the inputs and I'll tell you the optimum to run. But what I know is the relative costs are shifting against the MD-80. For both AA and Allegiant, they are replacing with A319s with predictive maintenance. Those A319s are benefiting from airframe PIPs (in particular avionics) meant for the NEOs. This is just economies of scale playing its role allowing hand me down upgrades. The MD-80 has been static for a long time. There is no putting in more computer cards to add new capabilities. Not economically...

For the 787, the electronic predictive maintenance was horrible the first 3+ years. But now it is the best feature of the airframe.

One airframe I would love to see at AA is the A220. The predictive maintenance has crossed the point where it is now an advantage to the competition. IMHO, Airbus is going to look at the A220 and bring over as much as possible to the A320 while improving the A220.
http://atwonline.com/airlines/ceo-airba ... el-savings

But new aircraft need to be in the pool of aircraft that are flown intensely, which is not the role of the MD-80.

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Veigar
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:49 pm

Delta's MD-80s will 100% not be all gone by the end of next year. That's absurd to say.
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:14 am

I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.
Airliners.net of the Future
 
Boof02671
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:59 am

I think it’s not. Why spend money on something that will be retired?

It’s about dollars and cents, not that you or anyone likes a particular fleet type.
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:55 am

Boof02671 wrote:
I think it’s not. Why spend money on something that will be retired?

It’s about dollars and cents, not that you or anyone likes a particular fleet type.


Marketing matters. My rule: Not planning to retire an aircraft within 6 months? Put a new livery on it. Old livery on an aircraft for 5 years is beyond ridiculous. When to retire an aircraft must be a rather difficult decision-making process. I believe AA's original decision to retire all M80s was to take place before this year.
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:02 am

September11 wrote:
I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.
I wish AA would have done just a few MD-80s in the new paint job.
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 am

doulasc wrote:
September11 wrote:
I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.
I wish AA would have done just a few MD-80s in the new paint job.


Me, too. New livery on younger ten M80s would be practical.
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jagraham
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:22 am

The three big MD-80 operators are all retiring their aircraft in favour of newer, more fuel efficient aircraft. American, Allegiant, and Delta are all looking to retire their fleet of MD-80s by the end of 2019. The three airlines are currently still operating 34, 25, and 98 aircraft respectively.

https://simpleflying.com/when-will-the- ... al-flight/

A few MD88s may hang around past December 2019, but not many and not by much. MD90s will retire at a much slower pace; initially they were planned to stay for at least a decade. 717s are not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. But MD88s at DL will disappear as fast as replacements come onto the property. Faster if there is an economic downturn.
 
777PHX
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:27 am

September11 wrote:
I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.


Really?

I remember when Delta had aircraft in three different liveries - widget, interim, and Deltaflot - and then less than a decade later brought out the current livery.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:36 am

Profits vs what you all think, profits wins.

Waste of money to paint them.
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:40 am

777PHX wrote:
September11 wrote:
I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.


Really?

I remember when Delta had aircraft in three different liveries - widget, interim, and Deltaflot - and then less than a decade later brought out the current livery.


Delta's situation was a harder one. I don't see a DL M80 in Deltaflot livery today. DL even took the time to put current livery on DC-9-50s inherited from NW. My end of this discussion.
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:55 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Profits vs what you all think, profits wins.

Waste of money to paint them.




Waste of money?

DL's DC-9-50s in current livery didn't last long. Probably, less than a year. DL knew it.
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juliuswong
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:02 am

Just to put the numbers into perspective:

American Airlines collectively operates/leased/owned: 383 MD-80s (exclude MD-90)
Current in fleet: 30 (2 MD-82 & 28 MD-83)
Retired: 353 (268 MD-82 & 80 MD-83)

Delta Air Lines collectively operates/leased/owned: 165 MD-80s (exclude MD-90)
Current in fleet: 90 MD-88
Retired: 75 (36 MD-82, 8 MD-83, 1 MD-87 & 30 MD-88)

Allegiant collectively operates/leased/owned: 61 MD-80s (exclude MD-90)
Current in fleet: 18 (16 MD-83 & 2 MD-88)
Retired: 43 (2 MD-82, 33 MD-83, 4 MD-87 & 4 MD-88)

Source: Planespotters.net

Like most here have stated all thee AA, DL and G4 might not have operated all the frames at single time and some are bought for spares, but that's still sh*tloads of frame to replace!
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:57 am

September11 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Profits vs what you all think, profits wins.

Waste of money to paint them.




Waste of money?

DL's DC-9-50s in current livery didn't last long. Probably, less than a year. DL knew it.


I would guess the difference here was that DL moved very quickly to harmonize the brand image to DL (eliminating the NW brand). The decision may have been different if the DC-9-50s were PMDL aircraft in an old DL paint livery.

In my observation which may be narrow, is that airlines' approach to integrating the branding of the prior airline has also seemed to change over the past few decades. The prior practice was immediate "re-stickering" of an aircraft with the acquiring company's name (Piedmont and PSA to US, Reno Air to AA, PeopleExpress to CO, etc.) until the aircraft could be fully repainted. Now, there seems to be more tolerance to allow the disappearing airline brand (including name) to remain until repainting, ex US to AA, Air Tran into WN. I believe this was the practice with the NW integration into DL no?
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:04 am

soflaflyer wrote:
September11 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Profits vs what you all think, profits wins.

Waste of money to paint them.




Waste of money?

DL's DC-9-50s in current livery didn't last long. Probably, less than a year. DL knew it.


I would guess the difference here was that DL moved very quickly to harmonize the brand image to DL (eliminating the NW brand). The decision may have been different if the DC-9-50s were PMDL aircraft in an old DL paint livery.

In my observation which may be narrow, is that airlines' approach to integrating the branding of the prior airline has also seemed to change over the past few decades. The prior practice was immediate "re-stickering" of an aircraft with the acquiring company's name (Piedmont and PSA to US, Reno Air to AA, PeopleExpress to CO, etc.) until the aircraft could be fully repainted. Now, there seems to be more tolerance to allow the disappearing airline brand (including name) to remain until repainting, ex US to AA, Air Tran into WN. I believe this was the practice with the NW integration into DL no?


Remember this?

Airliners.net of the Future
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 am

September11 wrote:
soflaflyer wrote:
September11 wrote:



Waste of money?

DL's DC-9-50s in current livery didn't last long. Probably, less than a year. DL knew it.


I would guess the difference here was that DL moved very quickly to harmonize the brand image to DL (eliminating the NW brand). The decision may have been different if the DC-9-50s were PMDL aircraft in an old DL paint livery.

In my observation which may be narrow, is that airlines' approach to integrating the branding of the prior airline has also seemed to change over the past few decades. The prior practice was immediate "re-stickering" of an aircraft with the acquiring company's name (Piedmont and PSA to US, Reno Air to AA, PeopleExpress to CO, etc.) until the aircraft could be fully repainted. Now, there seems to be more tolerance to allow the disappearing airline brand (including name) to remain until repainting, ex US to AA, Air Tran into WN. I believe this was the practice with the NW integration into DL no?


Remember this?



Perhaps AA just repaint M80 tails?
Airliners.net of the Future
 
jagraham
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:26 am

777PHX wrote:
September11 wrote:
I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.


Really?

I remember when Delta had aircraft in three different liveries - widget, interim, and Deltaflot - and then less than a decade later brought out the current livery.


Also, the MD80s were PMAA; since they already said AA, the need was less than repainting the PMUS aircraft.
 
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:34 am

jagraham wrote:
777PHX wrote:
September11 wrote:
I just think it is little crazy AA did not put new livery on MD80s.


Really?

I remember when Delta had aircraft in three different liveries - widget, interim, and Deltaflot - and then less than a decade later brought out the current livery.


Also, the MD80s were PMAA; since they already said AA, the need was less than repainting the PMUS aircraft.


Didn't AA retire one or more PMUS aircraft in current livery?
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September11
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:46 am

One more time: EVERYONE will appreciate to see this AA M80 in new livery! Soon to be retired or not. Great plane build to last long.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/21/2c ... 56c373.jpg
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burnsie28
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:23 pm

jagraham wrote:
The three big MD-80 operators are all retiring their aircraft in favour of newer, more fuel efficient aircraft. American, Allegiant, and Delta are all looking to retire their fleet of MD-80s by the end of 2019. The three airlines are currently still operating 34, 25, and 98 aircraft respectively.

https://simpleflying.com/when-will-the- ... al-flight/

A few MD88s may hang around past December 2019, but not many and not by much. MD90s will retire at a much slower pace; initially they were planned to stay for at least a decade. 717s are not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. But MD88s at DL will disappear as fast as replacements come onto the property. Faster if there is an economic downturn.


Sorry but the writer is wrong, DL's M80's as of now will not be retired by the end of 2019.

September11 wrote:
DL's DC-9-50s in current livery didn't last long. Probably, less than a year. DL knew it.


I took a picture of the first NW plane to be painted into DL livery. It can be found on "the other site". That was on December 17, 2008. Last DC9 flight for Delta was in early spring 2014. So a little over 5 years.
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
A little more as Allegiant is currently posting the best MD-80 information.
http://ir.allegiantair.com/news-release ... al-results
So 49 available seat miles per gallon to the low 80s (going to A320/A319)

Do recall they are retiring the MD-80s this month "immediately after Thanksgiving travel period."

I'll ask again, when do the AA MD-80s need maintenance? That really determines the life of the 30 left in service.

I'm curious how long either AA or DL keep servicing MD-80s. Obviously that will depend on how many maintenance contracts they receive. I just wish I knew such information; for I believe when the two cease maintaining the MD-80 (for others, not just themselves), the plane will be retired in mass by others.
Lightsaber


Haha some background on that. At the performed fleet level, nothing really got beyond 70-something ASMPG during the 2000s. I think Frontier A321 NEO (if they have those) will trounce that. AFAIK no one has yet performed 100 ASMPG with a fleet. But a 230 seat A321 NEO might. If they run transcon. The statistic is very sensitive to stage length.

You will find that Amtrak diesel trains get around 40 passenger miles to the gallon (RPMPG). Jets are more efficient at ten times the speed. With zero track maintenance.
 
deltadc9
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:44 pm

Forgive me if I missed this in previous posts, but aside from being paid for, cheap fuel, etc. the bottom line is that the DC-9 and all its variants are simply excellent aircraft, one of the best ever built. The fact that it is overbuilt to accommodate the engines mounted to the fuse, and the many advantages of the wings not having to support the engines has given it a very very long lifespan. I first flew on a DC-9 in 1969, and I have a flight on Allegiant on Sunday and guess what type of plane it is....

The fact it has hung on so long speaks for itself, its a very good design and well built. Economics are its only enemy.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
toobz
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:58 pm

DL has MD88 and MD90. AA is operating older versions ( not quite sure if MD82 or MD83 or both)
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:03 pm

deltadc9 wrote:
Forgive me if I missed this in previous posts, but aside from being paid for, cheap fuel, etc. the bottom line is that the DC-9 and all its variants are simply excellent aircraft, one of the best ever built. The fact that it is overbuilt to accommodate the engines mounted to the fuse, and the many advantages of the wings not having to support the engines has given it a very very long lifespan. I first flew on a DC-9 in 1969, and I have a flight on Allegiant on Sunday and guess what type of plane it is....

The fact it has hung on so long speaks for itself, its a very good design and well built. Economics are its only enemy.


I agree. And I believe also that a T-Tail aircraft has a lower stall speed than an aircraft designed with its empennage at the bottom of the tail. I agree about all the good things everyone says about the MD-80, BUT: with all due respect to DC-9/MD-80 lovers I still prefer the 727 over the MD-80.

There was a time when American was considering upgrading the MD-80s with newer engines, in addition to implementing glass cockpit which they did, but they decided not to do that because the airframe itself had already a lot of cycles. So they decided to send them into pasture in ROW, which they have been doing now for a few years, and replace them with brand new 737-800s.
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:07 pm

toobz wrote:
DL has MD88 and MD90. AA is operating older versions ( not quite sure if MD82 or MD83 or both)


Both. And they also flew the -87 and the -90 but those didn't last long, they came from Reno Air.
Ben Soriano
 
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:28 pm

I've been thinking of everyone's comments at to why American has not repainted any MD-80 in the new scheme, whether they should or not, but this is what I am thinking.

Here is the question: Did any MD-80 at American get a D-Check since Jan of 2013 when the new scheme was unveiled? Because it's on a D-Check that an aircraft gets repainted whether or not a new livery has been unveiled. I think that the reason why none of the Super 80s have been repainted in the new livery was because prior to Jan of 2013, they (American) already decided that no more MD-80 would get a D-Check. It must be that they made that decision back in 2011 when they placed the massive order of 738s and A319/321s.
Ben Soriano
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Why has AA just kept holding onto their MD80's?

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:46 pm

As already noted, the big question is when the last D-checks (or last heavy C) were performed as it is not worth performing a heavy C or D check on an MD-80. The lighter C checks, maybe....

There will be plenty of ex-G4 birds in a few weeks. ;)


jagraham wrote:
The three big MD-80 operators are all retiring their aircraft in favour of newer, more fuel efficient aircraft. American, Allegiant, and Delta are all looking to retire their fleet of MD-80s by the end of 2019. The three airlines are currently still operating 34, 25, and 98 aircraft respectively.

https://simpleflying.com/when-will-the- ... al-flight/

A few MD88s may hang around past December 2019, but not many and not by much. MD90s will retire at a much slower pace; initially they were planned to stay for at least a decade. 717s are not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. But MD88s at DL will disappear as fast as replacements come onto the property. Faster if there is an economic downturn.

Your numbers are a bit old. All three have retired a few.
I calculate off airfleets.net, the production summary:

DL:. 89
AA:. 30
G4: 19 (all off scheduled duty after the Thanksgiving rush, but they will be backup/charter for months.)

DL is retiring here and there. I suspect based on minimizing maintenance costs. The question is when for AA?

Lightsaber
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