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ElroyJetson
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KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:36 pm

KLM announced they will starting flying 787-10 on the AMS-SFO route effective 10/28/19.


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-09nov18/



The route is roughly 4800 NM and an 11-12 hour flight westbound. However, I find this confusing because recent comments here on A-net said LH, for example, would never fly the 787-10 because it was so range restricted and could not fly a route like FRA-LAX. Others have commented the 787-10 is really only an 8.5 hour plane. So what gives? KLM is a world class airline. Why would it utilize a 787-10 on a 4800 nm flight if it cannot fly the mission?
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:43 pm

787-10's range (11910km) is similar to 767-300ER (11070km) and A330-300 (242t) (11750km).

I think you can use 767-300ER and the newest batch of A330-300 as roughly a reference on what routes 787-10 can be used on. Trans-Atlantic (including West Coast-Western Europe) should be comfortably in range. Trans-Pacific is not, except for limited city pairs between Japan/Korea and West Coast (e.g. ICN-SEA)
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:46 pm

KLM start B787-10 in Chicago in October 2019 (W19) too.......this plane will be the king in the Atlantic
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:51 pm

There seems to be this prejudice that all widebody aircraft need to be able to do 7,000nmi+. The fact is that routes that long are few and far between. West Coast<-->Europe is usually a 10-11 hour route at ~5,000nmi. You can use a 789 with its additional 3,000nmi of range, but...why? Just so you can carry empty fuel tanks around?
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:53 pm

The answer is Cargo (or lack thereof). KLM knows the amount of cargo they have to haul between all city pairs and apparently the cargo demand is not that much but they think they can fill 300+ seats regularly hence the deployment at SFO. The 787-10 with full payload can only do 4000nm in still air.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Question on the 787-10: Would it be able to fly SAN-Europe non-stop with full payload? I would LOVE to see a blue-tailed 787 here at SAN, but we all know the take-off requirements here.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:30 pm

sabby wrote:
The answer is Cargo (or lack thereof). KLM knows the amount of cargo they have to haul between all city pairs and apparently the cargo demand is not that much but they think they can fill 300+ seats regularly hence the deployment at SFO. The 787-10 with full payload can only do 4000nm in still air.


KLM are also going to use the 787-10 to IAH, not quite as far as SFO, but a city that was a traditional 747 Combi destination. I suppose there will be no cargo to load there either ?
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:33 pm

Looking at the data from the 787 airport planning document the 787 will be able to carry a payload of slightly more than 50,000kg on a route such as AMS-SFO (4756nm acc GCmap.com).
Given standard passenger weights and KLM's planned config with 344 passengers, that would mean about 35,000kg would be occupied with passengers.
This would leave roughly 15,000kg for cargo.

Mind two things: one this is "Boeing standard" with zero wind, optimal speed, basic config etc. But there should still be space for at least 5000kg of cargo both ways and on the eastbound probably more. Second these numbers are rough as I'm pulling them out of graphs so there is probably some read off error.
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:36 pm

5,000 nm allowed 35 t of payload against winter winds. There seems to be a bias that the 40 t of the A359 is always needed. :no:

For LH who charges a premium for guaranteed cargo, I understand the need. KLM might just not fly as much cargo to West coast US cities.

For Europe to the Midwest or near East coast, the 787-10 is a cargo machine. It isn't one route, but what was this subfleet bought for?

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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm

I think we all will be 'surprised' at the routes the 787-10 flies with ease in a few years.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:39 pm

If range with max payload were the primary criteria, all airlines would be flying 77Ls. But the 8000nm+ max payload range of the 77L has NOT generated even 100 sales . .
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:41 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
KLM announced they will starting flying 787-10 on the AMS-SFO route effective 10/28/19.


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-09nov18/


The route is roughly 4800 NM and an 11-12 hour flight westbound. However, I find this confusing because recent comments here on A-net said LH, for example, would never fly the 787-10 because it was so range restricted and could not fly a route like FRA-LAX. Others have commented the 787-10 is really only an 8.5 hour plane. So what gives? KLM is a world class airline. Why would it utilize a 787-10 on a 4800 nm flight if it cannot fly the mission?


I'm not sure many have suggested that it can't fly the routes, but it's not exactly optimal above 4500NM. If KL think it'll do the job then fair enough, but typically above 4000nm the 78X drops off and the A359 gains, relatively speaking.

LH did say that the 78X lacked the range for 40% of the routes they needed it for in the first contest, so there is some basis for why LH wouldn't fly it.

I do assume this viewpoint of seeing an aircraft in an area where it supposedly doesn't excel will follow its way through to analysis of Airbus aircraft as well? It would be very awkward if multiple airlines used A350s on sectors where the 78X is supposedly better, and even more awkward if these were 'world' class airlines'. Why would an airline like SQ order A359s especially for regional flights? Maybe the A359 is better than you give credit for on short missions, I hope this will be noted for any future analysis.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:44 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I think we all will be 'surprised' at the routes the 787-10 flies with ease in a few years.

I'm aware of 3 engine PIPs planned for GE:
1. CMC fixed inlet to turbine
2. 2nd stage of high turbine
3. 1st stage of high turbine.

Each PIP should cut fuel burn 2.5% to 3.5%. I expect Boeing to keep working on weight (787-10 is new, so at least a ton to remove). Removed weight= more fuel or payload at range.

What is the KLM seat map? How many tons of people? ;). Then 4t per pallet. I'm curious how the 35t will be allocated.

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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:48 pm

Ugh, this again. Over a route of this length, the 787-10 is perfectly capable of carrying a full passenger + bags load and a typical cargo load. Can KLM fill up that giant hold with fruit? No. But that's not usually what it needs to carry on a route like this anyway.

The 787-10 is just fine on almost all TATL service, unless the eastern destination is somewhere like TLV. Where it is limited is on TPAC and, to some extent, on East Asia to Europe.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:58 pm

AMS is a big cargo destination and KLM carries a significant amount of cargo across its network. The 787-10 can carry almost as much volume as a 777-300ER so i would expect KLM to be taking advantage of it as they retire 747 combis.

The people telling us the 787-10 is short in range are usually the ones blindly advocating for the A350. The real world is not the same thing as an ACAP or marketing slide. KLM knows the actual performance of the plane and how it fits in their network.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:58 pm

Its another year till that happens so lets see what materializes with other operators.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:22 pm

I guess there's gonna be alot of roses in the belly of the 787-10, and roses doesn't weigh that much
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:25 pm

Great use of the 787-10... They need this as the 787-9 even 2x does not have the capacity that is needed as a replacement for the 747-4 that they prefer to fly. I could see this being a big success in the summer, may have a few challenges from time to time in the winter with those winds and rain delays in SFO or Snow in AMS, but we will see. You never really know till you get these birds up in the air and see what they can do in real world numbers.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:28 pm

Maybe you are right about flowers but tulips would be more like it.

In reading this forum, my expectations were that the -10 would have trouble making the east coast in the winter much the less SFO. Maybe KLM will be blocking off half of economy?
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:31 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Ugh, this again. Over a route of this length, the 787-10 is perfectly capable of carrying a full passenger + bags load and a typical cargo load. Can KLM fill up that giant hold with fruit? No. But that's not usually what it needs to carry on a route like this anyway.

The 787-10 is just fine on almost all TATL service, unless the eastern destination is somewhere like TLV. Where it is limited is on TPAC and, to some extent, on East Asia to Europe.


DL is deploying a 242t A333 on JFK-TLV. The 78J should be capable of flying similar routes (5600m)

DLP
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:33 pm

sabby wrote:
The answer is Cargo (or lack thereof). KLM knows the amount of cargo they have to haul between all city pairs and apparently the cargo demand is not that much but they think they can fill 300+ seats regularly hence the deployment at SFO. The 787-10 with full payload can only do 4000nm in still air.



i mean cargo is only a few percent of the revenue of most flights, right? if the extra capacity makes more money than cargo, it makes sense to bring in more rev pax to overcome the loss of cargo
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:34 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I think we all will be 'surprised' at the routes the 787-10 flies with ease in a few years.



especially if theres a pip in the near future.
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:38 pm

Was there really ever any doubt that the 787-10 could do West Coast to most of Western Europe?
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ElroyJetson
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:39 pm

The 787-10 has a massive cargo hold so when folks say things like....."well yeah....but it can't fly LAX-TLV with a full load," I just laugh. As one of the other posters stated, if every plane flew with an absolutely full cargo hold the 77L would have sold a 1,000 copies. In reality it sold less than one hundred.

I think Lightsaber nailed it. 35t of payload gets you from pretty much anywhere in Europe to the West Coast with a 787-10. That's sounds very good to me. With the addition of PIP's I also agree with many that the 787-10 will increase significantly in capability as the A330 has over the years.
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:39 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Ugh, this again. Over a route of this length, the 787-10 is perfectly capable of carrying a full passenger + bags load and a typical cargo load. Can KLM fill up that giant hold with fruit? No. But that's not usually what it needs to carry on a route like this anyway.

The 787-10 is just fine on almost all TATL service, unless the eastern destination is somewhere like TLV. Where it is limited is on TPAC and, to some extent, on East Asia to Europe.


I don't see a reason why the 787-10 won't be able to do JFK/EWR-TLV.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:42 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
sabby wrote:
The answer is Cargo (or lack thereof). KLM knows the amount of cargo they have to haul between all city pairs and apparently the cargo demand is not that much but they think they can fill 300+ seats regularly hence the deployment at SFO. The 787-10 with full payload can only do 4000nm in still air.


KLM are also going to use the 787-10 to IAH, not quite as far as SFO, but a city that was a traditional 747 Combi destination. I suppose there will be no cargo to load there either ?


Way to twist my words !! I never said KLM won't load cargo in their SFO flights, just that they think they don't need the max payload. It can either mean volume limited cargo that weighs less or it can mean not enough demand to stuff the plane with max weight cargo. My reply was more technical in answer to the OP's query.

Also, AMS-IAH is 4350nm, just 350nm more than the max MZFW payload range so they can fill the cargo pretty well. There is a reason you and I (and others) are not planning these routes and aircrafts, the airlines have better data and they are in business, not fanboying over A vs B.

I think both the 787 and A350 are fantastic birds and they each have their own uses to airlines. Personally, I can't wait till most of the 777 (and some 330) routes are replaced with the 787-10 / A359. I really like lesser noise and more humidity when I am flying.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:50 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
Was there really ever any doubt that the 787-10 could do West Coast to most of Western Europe?



Yes. Within the last week a number of Airbus fans said the 787-10 could not fly a route like FRA-LAX with full pax and bags and zero cargo. The implication was the 787-10 was marginally TATL. It could fly a route like JFK-LHR, but really nothing much beyond 4,000 nm.

Again.....the 787-10 has a massive cargo hold. At MTOW sure, range will suffer. But it does not mean the 787-10 cannot fly a long ways with full pax and bags and significant cargo. The 35t payload and 5,000nm range westbound against winter winds that was stated by Lightsaber sounds very accurate and fair to me.

Now can it fly 40t 6000nm? The answer is no, but then there are other planes for those kind of missions. But for what it does the 787-10 is an outstanding aircraft imho.
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:52 pm

tisr123 wrote:
I don't see a reason why the 787-10 won't be able to do JFK/EWR-TLV.


Indeed. LAX-TLV would be too far but that is why the 787-9 exists.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:06 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
The 787-10 has a massive cargo hold so when folks say things like....."well yeah....but it can't fly LAX-TLV with a full load," I just laugh. As one of the other posters stated, if every plane flew with an absolutely full cargo hold the 77L would have sold a 1,000 copies. In reality it sold less than one hundred.

I think Lightsaber nailed it. 35t of payload gets you from pretty much anywhere in Europe to the West Coast with a 787-10. That's sounds very good to me. With the addition of PIP's I also agree with many that the 787-10 will increase significantly in capability as the A330 has over the years.


The opening post asked if KLM can fly AMS-SFO with 787-10, why can't LH fly the same plane between LAX-FRA. So obviously people will reply LH may need more cargo on that specific route or other similar routes which may be why they hesitate before ordering it. Doesn't mean they won't order it at all but Cargo is a plausible reason for them not to. One plane can be fantastic for a few airlines where as can be a dog or overkill for others. There are a lot that goes in the picture planning a route - specific configurations, DOW, Cargo, winds along the flight path, hot and high airport etc.

If you opened this thread just to respite the people who claimed LAX-FRA can't be flown in 787-10 with zero cargo, it was not necessary. Those people were clearly trolling as Boeing lists 6400nm still air range with 335 pax and bags. Even with headwinds and diversion reserve, it should be easily be able to fly 5000nm like lightsabre mentioned. Now, I recall Tim Clark commenting that 787-10 is a good 8 hour plane, but you have to remember that they operate in one of the hottest airports in the world and their dedicated cargo fleet is relatively small.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:11 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I think we all will be 'surprised' at the routes the 787-10 flies with ease in a few years.

Only if you've been living under a rock. Everyone knows what routes is can do. As stated above, anything the A333 and 763ER can do, this one can do better.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:12 pm

And cargo can be different. You can have destinations where you load heavy loads and others which require volume. I would but SFO in the volume needing markets and not in a market where you load heavy dense loads.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:16 pm

With KLM discontinuing the 74M out of many cargo-heavy markets such as ORD, IAH and SFO what are they doing to recoup the lose of the cargo capacity?
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:41 pm

The 787-10 has 6,000 miles range, the 787-9 from which its is stretched has over 8,000 mile range. A 787-10 won't do 15 hours but it can do 12 hour flights which cover most requirements. The 787-10 is Boeing's answer to the A330-300, Boeing has other planes for longer capability and higher passenger capacity. Interesting to see how many 787-10 replace 767-300ER's.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:00 pm

tkoenig95 wrote:
With KLM discontinuing the 74M out of many cargo-heavy markets such as ORD, IAH and SFO what are they doing to recoup the lose of the cargo capacity?


Nothing. KL likes to call the 77/78 the new combi’s and will give up the horses and oddsize cargo market.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:00 pm

tkoenig95 wrote:
With KLM discontinuing the 74M out of many cargo-heavy markets such as ORD, IAH and SFO what are they doing to recoup the lose of the cargo capacity?

Belly freight. I wouldnt be surprised if some of those routes get upgauged to a 777.
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:18 pm

sabby wrote:
The answer is Cargo (or lack thereof). KLM knows the amount of cargo they have to haul between all city pairs and apparently the cargo demand is not that much but they think they can fill 300+ seats regularly hence the deployment at SFO. The 787-10 with full payload can only do 4000nm in still air.


Uhh....I don't think that is correct. I think you are really downplaying the 787-10's capability.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:31 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
With KLM discontinuing the 74M out of many cargo-heavy markets such as ORD, IAH and SFO what are they doing to recoup the lose of the cargo capacity?

Belly freight. I wouldnt be surprised if some of those routes get upgauged to a 777.


IAH has been seeing mix fleet of 787, 777, and 777w.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:37 pm

I’m surprised that AMS-JFK isn’t tried at least as a familiarization flight with a one aircraft rotation. That could free a B77E for elsewhere.
 
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:50 pm

Seeing that the KLM 787-10 will replace their 747-400, Will KLM also use their 787-10 to Curacao seeing that they use their 747-400 to Curacao now?

EDIT: Sorry, I see now their 787-10 will replace the 747 Combi versions. Never mind. Which aircraft will their A350-900 replace?

A388
Last edited by A388 on Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
behramjee
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:50 pm

The B781 can fly comfortably with a full payload up to 11 hours nonstop.

AMS to SFO/PEK/IAH/LAX all fall within this 11 hour flying block hour time limit. PVG and ICN though it won’t be able to operate with a full payload year round especially departing out of those two cities.

For LOS, NBO, DEL, BOM, DXB, YYZ and many USA destinations this aircraft indeed is the right one for them to deploy.
Last edited by behramjee on Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
smartplane
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:53 pm

This will be one of the contracted routes from a performance guarantee perspective. KL is copying the LH mantra - ALL deliveries must meet ALL guarantees from day one.

This will spur the PiP's and weight loss referred to by Lightsaber (all of which are delaying the EK order going unconditional), unless Boeing want aircraft returned or to make compensation payments.
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:01 pm

An 787-10 can take 40 LD3, an impressive number. If a filled LD3 container weigh on average 1400kg and holds 300 passengers on average, with a little headwind, you can perfectly fly AMS-SFO. And youcan play soccer lower deck. KLM probably can better utilize the 772ER's to Asia and A333s east coast.
Last edited by keesje on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OA940
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:02 pm

Umm, no? The 78J can do that with a full payload and probably no restrictions (depending on headwinds). Plus I'd think the airline itself would know where to fly their plane.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:37 pm

keesje wrote:
An 787-10 can take 40 LD3, an impressive number. If a filled LD3 container weigh on average 1400kg and holds 300 passengers on average, with a little headwind, you can perfectly fly AMS-SFO. And youcan play soccer lower deck. KLM probably can better utilize the 772ER's to Asia and A333s east coast.


Let’s see:

1. You and others conjecture 78J can’t fly Europe to US West Coast w full load and some cargo.
2. Then a well run airline schedules the thing you say is implausible.
3. Rather than consider the well run airline might know what they’re doing you instead make an absurd statement about playing soccer in the lower deck.

Not very impressive.
 
strfyr51
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:41 pm

So? From the looks of these Posts? None of you can say whether the 787-10 will do EU to west coast or not.
I really like A^Net but there are speculators on that have NO IDEA what they're talking about and aside from NOT KNOWING?They're spouting opinions like /experts. Do any of you Have or have access to the Range charts for the 787-10? Range charts are usually Still air where the wind can be factored in. I would think that Boeing would be passing the range charts on to KLM and have factored the Historical wind components to determine what routes the 787-10 could fly Profitably..
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:47 pm

Also, all please note that the -10 will only fly days 3,5,7 as per the article linked in the OP. So if KL have too-heavy-for-7810-cargo to ship to SFO, they can always opt to ship it on the other days of the week (unless those are flown with A333 but I don’t think so). 74M, 77E/W or 789 should be able to pick up the heavy stuff without concern.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:18 pm

FrancisBegbie wrote:
Also, all please note that the -10 will only fly days 3,5,7 as per the article linked in the OP. So if KL have too-heavy-for-7810-cargo to ship to SFO, they can always opt to ship it on the other days of the week (unless those are flown with A333 but I don’t think so). 74M, 77E/W or 789 should be able to pick up the heavy stuff without concern.


Indeed. All cargo is not created equal. It's not like every cargo container will be filled to the brim with lead pellets.
What the...?
 
Lufthansa
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:33 pm

wasn't this the exact reason the 787-10 was built for? basically 777-200ER routes that didn't need -200LR's lifting. So far it seems to be able to do its job. I'd be then more worried about the 777-9. KLM are pretty good with keeping costs under control. If they fill it up with cargo this is probably effectively the end of its mission scope but if it can do the job, effectively and profitably without adding another type then why not? Also another thing to consider is the cargo market its changing with internet marketing. People give KLM a hard time but they seem to be consistently profitable, reliable, have a good hub with plenty of runways (LHR I'm looking at you) and a loyal following despite not being quite as glamours as their sister company. This aircraft probably won't see service to JNB or MEX but my guess is KLM is using it for what it was designed for.
 
ikramerica
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:45 pm

Another thing to consider about range is that all distances aren’t created equal. Not just the wind factor but also available alternates en route. The thing about flying westward to the west coast of the USA Is that the last portion of the flight is over land with numerous viable alternates along the way. For fuel planning it’s feasible to carry more cargo than you might if the last section of the flight is over water. Depending on winds if KLM was expecting heavy cargo that day, could file a route plan to Calgary or Denver and then revise it to go all the way to SFO or LAX en route as they get closer and reserves are assured. I know this is a technique other airlines do for certain routes.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: KLM Starts 787-10 on AMS-SFO Route. But I thought the 787-10 Had No Range?

Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:20 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
The 787-10 has a massive cargo hold so when folks say things like....."well yeah....but it can't fly LAX-TLV with a full load," I just laugh. As one of the other posters stated, if every plane flew with an absolutely full cargo hold the 77L would have sold a 1,000 copies. In reality it sold less than one hundred.

I think Lightsaber nailed it. 35t of payload gets you from pretty much anywhere in Europe to the West Coast with a 787-10. That's sounds very good to me. With the addition of PIP's I also agree with many that the 787-10 will increase significantly in capability as the A330 has over the years.


Don't feed the trolls. Lightsaber in post #9 gave the answer needed.

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