polarfox
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Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:11 am

Major event and runway shut down. Images showing fire hose cooling down tires, Apparently btw 90-100 knot speed before braking.

Culprit seems to be JAL 873 (789). Latest Boeing vs. Airbus duel? Not this way!

https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/1811135062/

Image

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peanuts
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:35 pm

What are the repercussions of such an incident? Does DL get to bill JL or the airport for damages, depending who's at fault? Does filing a claim increase the risk of higher premiums in the future for a carrier? What are some known industry related deductibles like? Just wondering...
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm

peanuts wrote:
What are the repercussions of such an incident? Does DL get to bill JL or the airport for damages, depending who's at fault? Does filing a claim increase the risk of higher premiums in the future for a carrier? What are some known industry related deductibles like? Just wondering...


Nothing regarding insurance.

Whichever aircraft was in the wrong, or ATC, will be addressed through reporting and investigation.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!
 
travaz
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:10 pm

Any details? The Chinese news source won't load.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:36 pm

peanuts wrote:
What are the repercussions of such an incident? Does DL get to bill JL or the airport for damages, depending who's at fault? Does filing a claim increase the risk of higher premiums in the future for a carrier? What are some known industry related deductibles like? Just wondering...


Insurance deductibles are usually around $500K or $1M but a big airline like Delta may have a higher deductible. This would be an insurance claim most likely if all the brakes, wheels and axles are damaged. I dont know if that happened.

Insurance claims are very common. Airlines have a whole insurance and warranty department.
 
Tucker1
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:38 pm

[quote="Okcflyer"]Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt![/quote

Don't see how it could hurt though.
 
seatrump
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:40 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!

Any maximum performance breaking is going to make the brakes super hot. Especially on a very heavily loaded airplane. On the airplane I fly, the break fuseplugs melt at a certain temperature and then the airplane needs major maintenance. If the breaks hit the red range, an inspection is required. Probably by hosing the tires, DL was trying to avoid this as a possibility. In any case, the airplane can't depart until break temperatures return to the green range - if they hit the top of the amber range on my airplane, you are looking at 1 hour minimum for them to cool to green. Hosing them down should speed up the return to the green range, facilitating a faster departure time.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:42 pm

Spraying water on hot brakes is a bad idea. I've never seen this done unless thwre was a brake fire.
 
Interflug74
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:43 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!


The report says, they where already rotating (the plane lift it´s nose) So no shame to have the brakes cooled
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:44 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Spraying water on hot brakes is a bad idea. I've never seen this done unless thwre was a brake fire.

Agreed. This might have caused the damage.

Lightsaber
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MSPNWA
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:51 pm

Must have worried about a fire if they're spraying them down.
 
kalvado
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:06 pm

Interflug74 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!


The report says, they where already rotating (the plane lift it´s nose) So no shame to have the brakes cooled

Then this is abort above V1, and things will be really interesting.
My understanding, though, is that until they had VERY fast moving opponent, getting airborne would be a better avoidance option at that point.
 
kaitakfan
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:12 pm

Interflug74 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!


The report says, they where already rotating (the plane lift it´s nose) So no shame to have the brakes cooled


Shame might be in aborting a takeoff after v1 unless the crew somehow deemed a reject while rotating was a better option vs continuing the takeoff. One would assume that if you’re concerned about an aircraft on the runway you’d be better off continuing the rotation to avoid impact vs a reject which would use up much more runway.
 
FlyBigDeltaJets
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:19 pm

There are claims of this being an abort below 110kts AND after nose rotation? On a TPAC flight, one of these this is not correct.
 
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litz
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:26 pm

Reportedly (take with usual "news reports say" grain of salt) they had to change the tires after returning to the gate.

So, apparently the unplanned max RTO performance test worked as designed, with about the same results as when done during certification ...

(with the considerable energy shed during an event such as this, minor damage/repair is completely expected and likely)
 
smartplane
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:19 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
peanuts wrote:
What are the repercussions of such an incident? Does DL get to bill JL or the airport for damages, depending who's at fault? Does filing a claim increase the risk of higher premiums in the future for a carrier? What are some known industry related deductibles like? Just wondering...


Insurance deductibles are usually around $500K or $1M but a big airline like Delta may have a higher deductible. This would be an insurance claim most likely if all the brakes, wheels and axles are damaged. I dont know if that happened.

Insurance claims are very common. Airlines have a whole insurance and warranty department.

Insurance switches from taxi to flight cover, with different excesses, once the aircraft is rolling on the take off runway.

Policy excesses are not a simple straight line, as say for vehicles. They are broken down into event types.

DL excess would definitely be greater than USD1m.

Forseeable losses / costs potentially brakes, tyres, passenger, crew and flight disruption, airport charges (both ends), engine PBTH penalties, aircraft inspection.............

In the golden years, the offending airline (or airport) would sometimes make an ex gratia, no admission of blame payment for obvious losses.
 
bradyj23
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:40 pm

Link to Avherald: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c03c0f9&opt=0

Sounds like it was around 100-110 knots. Definitely not rotating.
 
Revo1059
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:53 pm

I've seen a BA 747 (ORD) get its brakes sprayed at the gate after an emergency landing due to a medical issue on board. Landed, hit the brakes HARD and went right to the gate (I believe it was a heart attack IIRC). There was no fire, but they were hot.
 
Alias1024
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:54 pm

Several years ago I was involved with an RTO at 110 knots on a moderately loaded CRJ-200, and we came very close to melting the fuse plugs. The fire department's infrared thermometer measured both sides at over 800 degrees Fahrenheit. We cleared the runway, started the APU, had the fire department place chocks, shut down both engines, and sat over an hour on the taxiway before the brakes were cool enough to taxi to the terminal. I'm not at all surprised an aircraft loaded for PVG-DTW would have some kind of damage from an RTO at that speed.
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Waterbomber
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:26 pm

seatrump wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
On the airplane I fly, the break fuseplugs melt at a certain temperature and then the airplane needs major maintenance.


The fuse plugs would be on your wheels, not your brakes... They deflate your tires to avoid that the tires or wheels would explode and cause additional damage.

Cold water on very hot metal could alter the properties of the metal parts and the metal to lose its strength, as if quenched. Depending on the temperatures involved, the metals could become very brittle and develop tiny or visible cracks.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:34 pm

100 knots is the speed most manufacturers will use to differentiate between rejecting a takeoff for something relatively minor to something very hazardous.

Below 100 knots the list of things you would consider rejecting for are quite large. Above it not so much. Very limited. Above 100 knots in a very heavily laden aircraft a lot of heat will be generated as the braking would have been maximum effort.

As for the spraying? They must have caught fire or were smoking badly. You don’t cool brakes with water, but with fans.
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SteelChair
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:34 pm

This could be the highway to hell for Delta, a very expensive situation. The fire department possibly trashed the landing gear on this almost brand new A350. Cha-ching!
 
cschleic
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:38 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
seatrump wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
On the airplane I fly, the break fuseplugs melt at a certain temperature and then the airplane needs major maintenance.


The fuse plugs would be on your wheels, not your brakes... They deflate your tires to avoid that the tires or wheels would explode and cause additional damage.

Cold water on very hot metal could alter the properties of the metal parts and the metal to lose its strength, as if quenched. Depending on the temperatures involved, the metals could become very brittle and develop tiny or visible cracks.


So what happens if it's a rainy day?
 
robsaw
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:39 pm

Experienced a heavy braking upon landing of United 737 at IAH (July 6 2012, not too long after merger with Continental) and one of the main gear tires blew. We stopped just off the runway on a taxiway and were deplaned via stairs and bused to the terminal as the blown tire prevented further taxiing. You could feel the heat from the brakes from quite some distance away but they weren't hosing them down - nice big hole in the one tire though that I could clearly see while waiting to board the bus. Never heard any explanation of why we braked so hard?
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:39 pm

At what speed are brakes normally applied during a normal landing? And would a rejected take off also involve spoilers and reverse thrust?
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Do people realize how wildly inaccurate these speed/altitude data figures can be from flight aware? They don't refresh that quickly. Please stop interfering it was aborted at 110kts.
 
mwhcvt
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:10 pm

Replacing a full set of wheels/tyres and breaks plus any airport fees and pax costs is likely going’s to come to a similar cost as excess on insurance, but the question is would it even be covered by insurance? I know this is not the same as your car insurance policy but would they really cover replacement breaks and tyres I kind of doubt it myself, so then the real question would be does DL swallow the cost or pursue another party who are deemed to be at fault, and I’d wager they just swallow it as a cost of business
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:03 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
At what speed are brakes normally applied during a normal landing? And would a rejected take off also involve spoilers and reverse thrust?


Using auto brakes they come on immediately for some aircraft and build up to their selected level of braking. Other auto brake systems come on after an elapsed time after touchdown (weight on wheels)

Rejected takeoffs when it come to meeting specified performance data required the extension of speedbrakes (spoilers) but no reverse thrust.

Any reverse thrust used will improve performance as it is not computed- May have lost an engine, don’t use remaining due to asymmetric thrust concerns due to runway condition (wet/snowy/icy) as an example.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:29 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
At what speed are brakes normally applied during a normal landing? And would a rejected take off also involve spoilers and reverse thrust?


It's not the speed the brakes are applied at that matters, it's how quickly they decelerate a given mass.

F=ma

mass of a fully laden A359 is ~268000 to 280000kg
acceleration (deceleration) is the speed in m/s divided by the time taken to stop, 110knots is 56.6m/s, though the deceleration is unlikely to have been constant.

Basically they put a whole lot of energy into the brakes, there will be ceramic pads then the metal structure, the ceramic could crack on heating or cooling too fast depending on its thermal expansion coefficient, the metal could undergo a phase change, different crystal structures of steel give different properties, see one example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIP_steel.

The positive is that the brakes did their job.
 
benjjk
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:11 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Do people realize how wildly inaccurate these speed/altitude data figures can be from flight aware? They don't refresh that quickly. Please stop interfering it was aborted at 110kts.


True, but those tracking sites are accurate enough to say that it was rejected at high speed.

However the only time an RTO would be performed mid-rotation is if the wing fell off, certainly not for a runway incursion.
 
777Mech
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:34 pm

They RTO'ed at 150 knots.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:34 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
At what speed are brakes normally applied during a normal landing?


It depends on several factors, but in an A350 it's usually going to be about 140 knots.

However, on landing the plane has relatively little fuel and therefore weighs a lot less than on takeoff, and also the pilots have about 90% of the runway length to stop on. At V1 on a takeoff roll, you would usually only have about 30-40% of the runway length left and on a TPAC flight, you're going to be at pretty close to maximum operating weight. That's a *lot* more work for the brakes even to stop from a somewhat lower speed than on landing.
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Waterbomber
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:36 pm

cschleic wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
seatrump wrote:


The fuse plugs would be on your wheels, not your brakes... They deflate your tires to avoid that the tires or wheels would explode and cause additional damage.

Cold water on very hot metal could alter the properties of the metal parts and the metal to lose its strength, as if quenched. Depending on the temperatures involved, the metals could become very brittle and develop tiny or visible cracks.


So what happens if it's a rainy day?


I think that it's most likely your brakes and wheels will be wet before they heat up. The constant supply of water spray during the event will help dissipate the heat more and more evenly as opposed to suddenly applying a concentrated spray of water on glowing hot brakes and wheels.

If there is a fire risk, then you preventively apply foam even if that means that it could damage some metal parts. If it gets so hot that the fuse plugs start whistling, better be safe than sorry.
Still, there is a risk of explosion applying cold water on glowing hot brakes. Only to be done from afar and front or back. Never stand anywhere on the side...

You can also do it the Airbus jungle flight testing way.
No guarantees though.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUMuOyMTQ8Yp
Last edited by Waterbomber on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:44 pm

Boeing 777 RTO test. Advance to 2:20 for glowing disks. https://youtu.be/f4LFErD-yls
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:04 am

benjjk wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Do people realize how wildly inaccurate these speed/altitude data figures can be from flight aware? They don't refresh that quickly. Please stop interfering it was aborted at 110kts.


True, but those tracking sites are accurate enough to say that it was rejected at high speed.

However the only time an RTO would be performed mid-rotation is if the wing fell off, certainly not for a runway incursion.


We know it was a highspeed abort. It's a given based on details. But the whole assumption that they rotated/aborted at 110kts because the flight tracker app "says so" needs to be dismissed as non factual.

I just looked up a few flights for fun on Flightradar24 for the airline/equipment I fly. It showed each one "rotating" around 170kts-190kts. That's obviously off. If it gets a transponder ping at 100 kts, then another post takeoff at at 190kts, its just summing the lines together on the graph. The first altitude gain is then displayed at 190kts. Meanwhile you get reactions like: "they rotated at 190kts! Whats Vtire on that thing? ". Nevermind that its surveillance radar or transponder generated groundspeed, not whats being referenced at Vr.
 
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alex0easy
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:22 am

From what I can gather from some Chinese sources:
1 Controller instructed JAL 873 to hold short of the runway.
2 JAL 873 repeated back to cross the runway, which the controller did not catch.
3 Controller cleared DAL 582 for take off.
4 DAL 582 stopped after they saw the crossing JAL plane.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... SPD-1A.pdf
JAL plane was crossing on taxiway R6, while the Delta plane was rolling on 34L.

Source: https://www.jiemian.com/article/2618934.html (Plus a few other sites)
 
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Aesma
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:25 am

Could have been a Tenerife remake
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Waterbomber
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:37 am

Aesma wrote:
Could have been a Tenerife remake


In real life terms, not a chance.
The runway is 3800 meters long, the DL A350 would have flown way over the JL B789 even if they continued.

It was still a correct decision to abort as from afar, it's impossible to judge where the aircraft is crossing the runway.

Better safe than sorry.

Another drunk JL pilot perhaps?

The DL pilots probably heard the JL/ATC misunderstanding and also had them visual.
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:52 am

mwhcvt wrote:
Replacing a full set of wheels/tyres and breaks


Brakes.....surely you mean "brakes".


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polarfox
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:38 am

Aesma wrote:
Could have been a Tenerife remake



Not likely, as crossing at PVG usually is not at the middle of the runway. Therefore it is feasible to pull up and fly over. Similar case in SHA in 2016, with the MU5643 (A320) pulled up early and flew over an A330 (MU5106) by a very narrow margin (less than 20 meter of vertical separation. It was deemed that tower control was in full responsibility, with license provocation/dismissal happened right after the event.

The A320 captain was awarded 300 CNY for the quick reaction and proper handling.

So, it is unlikely yet possible to have catastrophic outcome.
 
musman9853
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:48 am

Interflug74 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!


The report says, they where already rotating (the plane lift it´s nose) So no shame to have the brakes cooled



im not a pilot, but if youre already rotating, wouldnt it be better just to climb quickly and risk a tailstrike rather than put your nose back down and slow down?
Last edited by musman9853 on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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musman9853
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:51 am

bradyj23 wrote:
Link to Avherald: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c03c0f9&opt=0

Sounds like it was around 100-110 knots. Definitely not rotating.



ok, that makes a lot more sense than the theory that they were rotating.
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maint123
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:56 am

No water on red hot metal ever recommended. But cooling with fans or natural cooling will also alter the strength of the metal part. As tempering of new parts is done at a specified cooling rates for all metals to get required properties.
Wonder how airlines handle similar red hot braking events ? It's not like in industry where loss will be restricted to equipment only.
 
polarfox
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:45 am

lightsaber wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Spraying water on hot brakes is a bad idea. I've never seen this done unless thwre was a brake fire.

Agreed. This might have caused the damage.

Lightsaber



Could be for the sake of rainbow, often can bring relief to panicked passengers :)
 
reggiet
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:45 am

Revo1059 wrote:
I've seen a BA 747 (ORD) get its brakes sprayed at the gate after an emergency landing due to a medical issue on board. Landed, hit the brakes HARD and went right to the gate (I believe it was a heart attack IIRC). There was no fire, but they were hot.


This is correct. Generally speaking, The airport crash rescue (ARFF) SOP regarding extremely hot brakes, especially on a wide body aborted takeoff, is copious amounts of water until the Captain has cooler readings. Streams are applied on the nearest runway/taxiway for expediency. Turret Flows of 600-1200 gallons per minute at 240 psi can assist in two major heat mitigation goals: a) keep the fusible plugs from activating and severely damaging the tire assembly and b) preventing the entire wheel assembly from catching fire as brake temps continue to rise after the plane has come to a full stop
Reggie in Austin
 
reggiet
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:06 am

reggiet wrote:
Revo1059 wrote:
I've seen a BA 747 (ORD) get its brakes sprayed at the gate after an emergency landing due to a medical issue on board. Landed, hit the brakes HARD and went right to the gate (I believe it was a heart attack IIRC). There was no fire, but they were hot.


This is correct. Generally speaking, The airport crash rescue (ARFF) SOP regarding extremely hot brakes, especially on a wide body aborted takeoff, is copious amounts of water until the Captain has cooler readings. Streams are applied on the nearest runway/taxiway for expediency. Turret Flows of 600-1200 gallons per minute at 240 psi can assist in two major heat mitigation goals: a) keep the fusible plugs from activating and severely damaging the tire assembly and b) preventing the entire wheel assembly from catching fire as brake temps continue to rise after the plane has come to a full stop


Edit: Fusible plugs melting won’t cause severe tire damage but of course will likely disable the aircraft on the taxiway, which is not an obvious preference for the airport.
Reggie in Austin
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:46 am

musman9853 wrote:
Interflug74 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
Overheating brakes at only 110 knots seems a bit odd as that’s quite below normal V1s. Hot brakes? Of course. Hot to the point of needing intervention beyond just waiting? Eh? Glad no one was hurt!


The report says, they where already rotating (the plane lift it´s nose) So no shame to have the brakes cooled



im not a pilot, but if youre already rotating, wouldnt it be better just to climb quickly and risk a tailstrike rather than put your nose back down and slow down?

As stated above, they were not rotating. After V1, you continue, unless you have a dual engine failure or the wings fall off.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:55 am

So is this a "major event" as the title suggest or in which category belongs this incident?
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 801
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Re: Runway incursion Nov 13th at PVG: DL582 (A359) aborted take off

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:26 am

Waterbomber wrote:
cschleic wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:

The fuse plugs would be on your wheels, not your brakes... They deflate your tires to avoid that the tires or wheels would explode and cause additional damage.

Cold water on very hot metal could alter the properties of the metal parts and the metal to lose its strength, as if quenched. Depending on the temperatures involved, the metals could become very brittle and develop tiny or visible cracks.


So what happens if it's a rainy day?


I think that it's most likely your brakes and wheels will be wet before they heat up. The constant supply of water spray during the event will help dissipate the heat more and more evenly as opposed to suddenly applying a concentrated spray of water on glowing hot brakes and wheels.

If there is a fire risk, then you preventively apply foam even if that means that it could damage some metal parts. If it gets so hot that the fuse plugs start whistling, better be safe than sorry.
Still, there is a risk of explosion applying cold water on glowing hot brakes. Only to be done from afar and front or back. Never stand anywhere on the side...

You can also do it the Airbus jungle flight testing way.
No guarantees though.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lUMuOyMTQ8Yp


I will never not find that video hilarious. Especially the part where the pilots are calmly discussing bringing over the stairs because the test was wasted and the guy on the radio has such an intense voice talking about every explosion while talking over each other. Also..."well, it's his job" gets me every time.

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