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chiad
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Updated: Airbus announcing A321XLR

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:23 am

Flight Global reports that the A321XLR will increase MTOW to over 100t and add an aditional 700nm over the A321LR

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-453590/
Last edited by SQ22 on Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
parapente
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:33 am

Good spot .Not surprised at the 100T plus,it had to be about 100T due to fuel weight.4,700nm does surprise me though,thought they would top out at +500nm.
Certainly will put the cat amongst the pigeons! This must take their MLG ( single bogey) to the very max re pavement loading surely?
 
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CARST
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:36 am

That's huge. Whatever I said in the past, now that is the new 757-200. Amazing what they made out of the early/first A321...

If airlines will really need this thing, that remains to be seen. I think the regular A321neo can do like 85% of the missions of the 757s. The A321LR can do like 95% of the 757 missions. Now comes the XLR, it will be really heavy compared to the regular A321neo. So will airlines go for a subfleet of them just for the extra 5% of missions not already covered by the LR? Or will the LR just go away and large airlines might have an A321neo + A321XLRneo subfleet? Possible...

Crazy development. Boeing needs to hurry now with their Midmarket/MOM project...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:48 am

Amazing what the A321 has become. Does anyone have the performance numbers for the original A321-100? The MTOW was 83t, quite amazing that this has been increased to 100t, or plus of over 20% (!).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:51 am

From the article:

People like Aer Lingus are very happy with the A321LR,” he says. “Lufthansa, being a bit further down into Europe, is telling us [they’d] like a bit more.”


Seems to indicate that there is at least some positive reception to it in the market. While Airbus should be cautious of the parallels between the all-new 787 vs A330neo and 797 vs A321XLR, at the same time the changes seem to be fairly minimal, and the A321 has excellent economies of scale compared to the A330, relatively speaking. It would be able to compete very heavily on cost against the 797 even if it has a slight disadvantage for ecconomics, and it's not like there's a shortage of A321 operators who could incorporate it fairly easily. It's quite an exciting proposition for opening up new routes.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:53 am

The A321LR just with fewer or no ACT will become the standard and the XLR the long range. You take today's LR and remove an ACT or two and have the payload and belly space for normal operations. If it is to heavy you derate it. We can stop talking about the comparison with the 757-200WL. That bird did only 90% of what the XLR will be able to do.

I assume that Lufthansa is the driving force, they called for such a frame.

I could even imagine Icelandair could be persuaded to get of their Boeing trip. KEF -LAX is possible even in winter. The whole of the USA and Canada in reach. No need for pesky wide bodies.
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:55 am

But seriously people, more and more weight, and still the same wing? That can't be ideal anymore, especially if they want to get maximum range out of that thing, then the fuel burn should be a top priority. No?
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:23 pm

The thing with Airbus is that they love to tweak their aircraft. In upcoming years, I could see them pushing A321XLR to 5,000nm.
They've done this with A330-200 and A330-300. And then again with A330-800neo and A330-900neo. Alongside the A350-900ULR and the upcoming A350-1000ULR that they talk about.

Especially for airlines in Western Europe and North America or Southeast Asia. A321XLR would be the main force for their expansion in the future.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:32 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
But seriously people, more and more weight, and still the same wing? That can't be ideal anymore, especially if they want to get maximum range out of that thing, then the fuel burn should be a top priority. No?


We should not forget that the wing on the A320 and A321 are similar, but not the same. Double slotted flaps instead of single, slight increase of the wing area from 124 to 128.
(AFAIK there is also a modification to the wing profile compared to the A320 wing, giving more lift, but increasing drag. But I can not find it at the moment)

An A321XLR could get wing modifications without getting a new wing
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:37 pm

Since TS has clearly expressed interest for it, here's, more or less, where they could send it from YUL.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=4700nm%40YUL
 
Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:38 pm

So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:48 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
But seriously people, more and more weight, and still the same wing? That can't be ideal anymore, especially if they want to get maximum range out of that thing, then the fuel burn should be a top priority. No?


I'm pretty sure if the fuel burn is bad, they wouldn't increase the range. This thing is, this plane might not be the most efficient aircraft out there BUT, if it's able to be efficient enough for airlines to operate, they would buy it.

A321XLR sits at a really sweet spots for many airlines. The size of this aircraft allowed it to be acceptable for many airlines. Why do you think they still ordering B767F or operate B767-300ER, knowing that B787-8 and A330-200 are around?
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:49 pm

Carlos01 wrote:
But seriously people, more and more weight, and still the same wing? That can't be ideal anymore, especially if they want to get maximum range out of that thing, then the fuel burn should be a top priority. No?


Depending on what the MOM is (if it happens) then a new wing for the A321 could then be on the cards. And an A322.
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ewt340
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:52 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.


Probably the luggage would go to the LD3-45 container. LOL.
Increase range means increased mtow and increased payload capability. Airlines that only fly 3,000nm to 3,500nm routes would be able to carry more cargo because of it.
Besides, A321 is a long plane, they carry 10 LD3-45.
 
parapente
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:54 pm

Of course it goes without saying that this article has been 'placed' very carefully in the agust mag' Flight International by Airbus.
It is contradictory in so much as it stresses it's only a plan,yet states they have taken options.They also seem to know a hell a lot about it for 'a plan'!
What it roughly means is they have got MOM range (4.500-5,000) effectively covered off.But (only) at ( one assumes) 206 pax in two classes.Obviously there can and will be a multitude of pax/range permutations but none will come close to the 250-270 two class size versions of the B797 as suggested in the press.
So it will really come down to optimum mom size.Big 10bn call from Boeing.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:57 pm

chiad wrote:
Flight Global reports that the A321XLR will increase MTOW to over 100t and add an aditional 700nm over the A321LR

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-453590/

I think it will happen. The article indicates the exercise is mostly about optimizing fuel storage.

Roewe says the airframer is primarily examining means to raise the fuel capacity.

However the article uses the phrase "is looking at", the article title uses the word "indicates" and this thread title uses the words "to have".

Seems far more definite than justified, IMHO.

The article says:

He also reiterates that the proposals are “studies”, and that studies are not the only part of the thought process. “We need to go for the business case,” he says.

However I believe the outcome will be a shining example of what can be done with this airframe and its leading edge engines.
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Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:58 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.


Probably the luggage would go to the LD3-45 container. LOL.
Increase range means increased mtow and increased payload capability. Airlines that only fly 3,000nm to 3,500nm routes would be able to carry more cargo because of it.
Besides, A321 is a long plane, they carry 10 LD3-45.


Haha, aye - into the LD3-45 container.


More seriously, if it takes 10 containers in basic form, that'd mean it could take 6 containers - with the aft hold (which is too small for containers but does take loose luggage) being occupied by the other 2 aft ACTs.

Is that enough space?
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:00 pm

Okay, so if they are set to grow big time again how about some new wing? CFRP maybe?
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:07 pm

Noshow wrote:
Okay, so if they are set to grow big time again how about some new wing? CFRP maybe?

That doesn't seem to be the direction for this proposal:

But he states that the aircraft could use the “same wing” and would probably need “no significant changes” beyond local reinforcement, including a strengthened landing-gear.

“It’s largely about more fuel,” he says. The A321neo is fitted either with CFM International Leap-1A or Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines, and Roewe indicates that the A321XLR could use the same powerplants.

This is pretty much the same thing we discussed in the previous XLR thread.

Presumably it's optimizing the wing box area for fuel storage, and moving the bulkheads around to eliminate at least one of the ACTs which is a very sensible thing to do for the missions that an XLR would fly.

Note also that no stretch was mentioned.
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Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:11 pm

parapente wrote:
What it roughly means is they have got MOM range (4.500-5,000) effectively covered off.But (only) at ( one assumes) 206 pax in two classes.Obviously there can and will be a multitude of pax/range permutations but none will come close to the 250-270 two class size versions of the B797 as suggested in the press.
So it will really come down to optimum mom size.Big 10bn call from Boeing.


Yeah. That is an optimistic $10B USD at that.

If it were my call - I would only do it if it were (i) single aisle and (ii) prototyped much of the technology/processes that will form the 737 replacement.


I think the market studies for MoM have been going on that long now that institutional bias has long since set in and that the numbers can now be whatever you massage them to be. So I'd consider the market justification as "inconclusive" at best and look for where you can get value back out in other ways - a program worth more than the sum of its parts so to speak.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:33 pm

It is good to have a clearer understanding of what the A321XLR is. I’m impressed they can get the MTOW to 100t by just strengthening existing structure. This will be a good option for some airlines.

mjoelnir wrote:
The A321LR just with fewer or no ACT will become the standard and the XLR the long range. You take today's LR and remove an ACT or two and have the payload and belly space for normal operations. If it is to heavy you derate it.


Did the article say that the 97t A321 would be the baseline? I doubt most airlines want the higher weight gear and higher weight airplane. Removing and installing ACTs is not recommended. Airbus charges more for higher MTOW and has been upselling airlines and charging more for the 97t vs 93.5t A321. Few airlines actually need that weight. Many A321 operators paid for a lower MTOW than 93.5t. I am surprised that Airbus is dropping the 93.5t baseline A321.

ewt340 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.


Probably the luggage would go to the LD3-45 container. LOL.
Increase range means increased mtow and increased payload capability. Airlines that only fly 3,000nm to 3,500nm routes would be able to carry more cargo because of it.
Besides, A321 is a long plane, they carry 10 LD3-45.


I am not so sure they would use LD3-45s in the A321XLR. Packing efficiency is better bulk loading. With ACTs taking up so much of the cargo hold airlines May choose to bulk load the airplane instead of use containers so they can fit in all the bags and have space for cargo.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:41 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.


Probably the luggage would go to the LD3-45 container. LOL.
Increase range means increased mtow and increased payload capability. Airlines that only fly 3,000nm to 3,500nm routes would be able to carry more cargo because of it.
Besides, A321 is a long plane, they carry 10 LD3-45.


Haha, aye - into the LD3-45 container.


More seriously, if it takes 10 containers in basic form, that'd mean it could take 6 containers - with the aft hold (which is too small for containers but does take loose luggage) being occupied by the other 2 aft ACTs.

Is that enough space?


If luggage is that important, could they sacrifice some passenger space (rear seats of the cabin) for luggage space?
(Not every other plane has sufficient luggage space - sometimes even 767 has to leave some luggage to be brought later by 333/343.)
 
tealnz
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:41 pm

I think it's now clear that the XLR would get a new integral tank (ie full width and depth of the hold) running back from the undercarriage bay aft bulkhead to fill the space previously occupied by two ACTs. No more ACTs would be needed - all fuel would be integral tankage in the wing or the new aft hold tank. Space would remain for LD3-45s for baggage in the forward hold (no ACT so space for five LD3-45s) and the aft hold (space for three). Sounds like a tidy fix, at least for fuel and baggage.

Now about that wing...
Last edited by tealnz on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:44 pm

parapente wrote:
Good spot .Not surprised at the 100T plus,it had to be about 100T due to fuel weight.4,700nm does surprise me though,thought they would top out at +500nm.
Certainly will put the cat amongst the pigeons! This must take their MLG ( single bogey) to the very max re pavement loading surely?


It'll be right up there with the heaviest B272-200A models (95,000kg MTOW) as far as single mains go for loading. I suppose there's always the bogie option to fall back on if they start cracking too much pavement. Would really suck when you lose a maingear tire at those weights.
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Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:45 pm

tealnz wrote:
I think it's now clear that the XLR would get a new integral tank (ie full width and depth of the hold) running back from the undercarriage bay aft bulkhead to the aft cargo door. No more ACTs - all fuel would be integral tankage in the wing or the new aft hold tank. Space would remain for LD3-45s in the forward hold (no ACT) and the aft hold (from cargo door back). Sounds like a tidy fix at least for fuel.


Weight and balance would be all over the place. Having all additional fuel tankage aft of the aero centre is a no-goer.

There are good reasons why the ACTs bracket the centre wing box.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:49 pm

Impressive. 700nm is a huge add.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:32 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
I think it's now clear that the XLR would get a new integral tank (ie full width and depth of the hold) running back from the undercarriage bay aft bulkhead to the aft cargo door. No more ACTs - all fuel would be integral tankage in the wing or the new aft hold tank. Space would remain for LD3-45s in the forward hold (no ACT) and the aft hold (from cargo door back). Sounds like a tidy fix at least for fuel.


Weight and balance would be all over the place. Having all additional fuel tankage aft of the aero centre is a no-goer.

There are good reasons why the ACTs bracket the centre wing box.

When there are just two ACT's they go in the aft hold. I think the third goes forward - but you lose another ULD position - so you go from 5 forward + 5 aft to 3+1ACT forward and 3+2ACT aft. Obviously a built in tank using the full fuselage cross section would hold a lot more fuel than ACTs - perhaps they might be combining it with a forward extension of the centre tank, as per the 744, replacing a third LD3-45 position:
Image
The problem is, these changes are permanent and fragment the A321 line, unlike the LR. Maybe customers won't care, and will take the loss of cargo space when used on shorter sectors. At best they will be left with 7 free LD3-45 positions and the aft bulk compartment. Is that right?
Down with that sort of thing!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:33 pm

In my previous post I forgot to "insert" the image rather than just the link. So here goes for the map of where TS could send the XLR from YUL.

Image
Last edited by SpaceshipDC10 on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:34 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.


Probably the luggage would go to the LD3-45 container. LOL.
Increase range means increased mtow and increased payload capability. Airlines that only fly 3,000nm to 3,500nm routes would be able to carry more cargo because of it.
Besides, A321 is a long plane, they carry 10 LD3-45.


Haha, aye - into the LD3-45 container.


More seriously, if it takes 10 containers in basic form, that'd mean it could take 6 containers - with the aft hold (which is too small for containers but does take loose luggage) being occupied by the other 2 aft ACTs.

Is that enough space?


Probably though. I mean, if we look into the seat config that airlines used like TAP portugal and their A321LR that would arrived in Q1 2019, they only carry 16C and 152Y. Presumably, 2 bags for economy class and 4 bags for business class and the crews bags. Should be enough. At this point the capacity seems closer to domestic A320 than A321.
 
ewt340
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:43 pm

parapente wrote:
Of course it goes without saying that this article has been 'placed' very carefully in the agust mag' Flight International by Airbus.
It is contradictory in so much as it stresses it's only a plan,yet states they have taken options.They also seem to know a hell a lot about it for 'a plan'!
What it roughly means is they have got MOM range (4.500-5,000) effectively covered off.But (only) at ( one assumes) 206 pax in two classes.Obviously there can and will be a multitude of pax/range permutations but none will come close to the 250-270 two class size versions of the B797 as suggested in the press.
So it will really come down to optimum mom size.Big 10bn call from Boeing.


Well the 206 pax in two classes tend to be unrealistic. Most airlines usually carry less pax. For example, TAP portugal planned to carry 16C and 152Y. So that's 168 pax.
I don't think many airlines would even reach 206 pax. Realistically they would go between 150 pax to 180 pax for the A321LR.

The smaller B797 wouldn't be used to carry 250-270 pax either. Realistically speaking, we could see Airlines seat between 200 pax - 220 pax in 2 class configurations using the latest Business class products (staggered seats) with all aisle access and 31" seat pitch on economy class.
While the larger one B797 could carry the same as A330-200 or B787-8 with way less range.

Besides, unlike B797, A321XLR is just an extension of A320neo family. It's a big bonus for airlines. B797 would require tons of addition to airlines operations that would only viable if the airlines order a substantial amount of frames. Besides, looking at the development of B797, we know that the smaller version of B797 would be the best seller because of the size and range, the bigger version have lower range that would make it as good as B757-300.

This is why Airbus is pushing A321XLR to the max, they want to grab as much as market out of the smaller B797.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:10 pm

All that weight on that little wing, that thing is gonna struggle to get up to a high altitude.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:15 pm

For the A321LR Airbus said that had to get creative to get in all the fuel and luggage at the same time.

The interview with Airbus says “It’s largely about more fuel,”

I would think a substantial modification in terms of luggage / fuel is being considered.

The 100t MTOW would also be a signal towards Asian customers, who told Boeing cargo is crucial during NMA discussions. They want "unrestricted" cargo opportunity from hot airports. Engines thrust of the PW and LEAP would grow to 37-38klbs.

Image
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:23 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
All that weight on that little wing, that thing is gonna struggle to get up to a high altitude.


By “high altitude” you probably mean F330. This plane will cross the NATs at F290/320.

GF
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:26 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

The A319CJ had erm... I think it was 6 ACTs if I recall correctly.

Of course, that meant you'd very little luggage space - but then the seating plan meant you'd never need that much luggage space.

This is very different.


No ACT or fewer. The increase is supposed to be in the center tank.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:32 pm

The thing about flying farther, is you are filling a plane with passengers who are bringing more stuff because generally they are staying at their destination longer.

So even though this A321XLR will have say 206 pax….. those 206 pax are going to carry allot of stuff with them... More than 240pax stuffed on a short 1000km flight.

Will be interesting to see how they fit all of the fuel and baggage. I wonder if they have found a way to get more fuel in the wings without completely redesigning the wing?

One thing is for sure...… the Next Gen re-winged A320 family is going to be a very capable plane... pass/fuel/range galore.
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airbazar
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:46 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
So where does the luggage go?

Same place it goes today. Passenger habits have changed immensely. No one is traveling with 2 checked bags anymore. Heck I bet that the percentage of passengers who check even 1 bag is way down. My family of 3 usually travels with only 1 check bag these days so we can save $100 per trip.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:51 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
The thing about flying farther, is you are filling a plane with passengers who are bringing more stuff because generally they are staying at their destination longer.

So even though this A321XLR will have say 206 pax….. those 206 pax are going to carry allot of stuff with them... More than 240pax stuffed on a short 1000km flight.

Will be interesting to see how they fit all of the fuel and baggage. I wonder if they have found a way to get more fuel in the wings without completely redesigning the wing?

One thing is for sure...… the Next Gen re-winged A320 family is going to be a very capable plane... pass/fuel/range galore.


I'm pretty sure that the amount of each bag is controlled by the airline, and not the number of people. No evidence that longer trips mean bigger or heavier bags.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:05 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
parapente wrote:
What it roughly means is they have got MOM range (4.500-5,000) effectively covered off.But (only) at ( one assumes) 206 pax in two classes.Obviously there can and will be a multitude of pax/range permutations but none will come close to the 250-270 two class size versions of the B797 as suggested in the press.
So it will really come down to optimum mom size.Big 10bn call from Boeing.


Yeah. That is an optimistic $10B USD at that.

If it were my call - I would only do it if it were (i) single aisle and (ii) prototyped much of the technology/processes that will form the 737 replacement.


I think the market studies for MoM have been going on that long now that institutional bias has long since set in and that the numbers can now be whatever you massage them to be. So I'd consider the market justification as "inconclusive" at best and look for where you can get value back out in other ways - a program worth more than the sum of its parts so to speak.


So you advocate Boeing spend $10B on an A321LRX clone? And compete? Why would an airline spend that much money on a clean sheet narrowbody when they can just integrate another A32X derivative into their fleet?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Begues
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:08 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
From the article:

People like Aer Lingus are very happy with the A321LR,” he says. “Lufthansa, being a bit further down into Europe, is telling us [they’d] like a bit more.”


Seems to indicate that there is at least some positive reception to it in the market. While Airbus should be cautious of the parallels between the all-new 787 vs A330neo and 797 vs A321XLR, at the same time the changes seem to be fairly minimal, and the A321 has excellent economies of scale compared to the A330, relatively speaking. It would be able to compete very heavily on cost against the 797 even if it has a slight disadvantage for ecconomics, and it's not like there's a shortage of A321 operators who could incorporate it fairly easily. It's quite an exciting proposition for opening up new routes.


I don't understand this at all, 787 EIS was 7 years ahead of the 330neo EIS, A321XLR EIS will be atleast 3 years ahead of the 797 EIS.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:13 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Weight and balance would be all over the place. Having all additional fuel tankage aft of the aero centre is a no-goer.

There are good reasons why the ACTs bracket the centre wing box.


replacing x ACT with a more compact integral tank will move that fuel mass closer to the center wing box.
( my over the thumb compute was that 3 ACT worth of fuel in an integral tank would take up <2 ACT length.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:15 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
So you advocate Boeing spend $10B on an A321LRX clone? And compete? Why would an airline spend that much money on a clean sheet narrowbody when they can just integrate another A32X derivative into their fleet?


Yep. The new aircraft should see 10% fuel burn benefit given the A321 is very underwinged for the range. It should also see maintenance benefits from newer systems.

More crucially, it'd be 737 replacement by the back door. So when they come around to it, they've 90% of the risk removed and can hit the ground running. If you folks thought the max/neo ramp ups were hard - the replacements will be easily twice as hard!
 
Flighty
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:21 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
parapente wrote:
What it roughly means is they have got MOM range (4.500-5,000) effectively covered off.But (only) at ( one assumes) 206 pax in two classes.Obviously there can and will be a multitude of pax/range permutations but none will come close to the 250-270 two class size versions of the B797 as suggested in the press.
So it will really come down to optimum mom size.Big 10bn call from Boeing.


Yeah. That is an optimistic $10B USD at that.

If it were my call - I would only do it if it were (i) single aisle and (ii) prototyped much of the technology/processes that will form the 737 replacement.


I think the market studies for MoM have been going on that long now that institutional bias has long since set in and that the numbers can now be whatever you massage them to be. So I'd consider the market justification as "inconclusive" at best and look for where you can get value back out in other ways - a program worth more than the sum of its parts so to speak.


So you advocate Boeing spend $10B on an A321LRX clone? And compete? Why would an airline spend that much money on a clean sheet narrowbody when they can just integrate another A32X derivative into their fleet?


Exactly, that is the pickle Boeing is in. Or, you might say the 797 should be a shrink widebody, like a 788 but 7Y, less wing an more light built. That's also less than truly compelling. The 788/9 and A321 are already so good that for Boeing to do a compelling MOM will be a huge effort into a very limited slice of market. It probably won't work! Unless as others have stated this new 737.

I say Boeing sits this one out. This is the price they pay for 737 Max. They got a financial benefit from 737 Max development and this is the liability they decided to take on with that decision.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:23 pm

Long and thin is still long and thin. That's the role for this airplane. And as the A321 stretches its legs, its economics must take the hit. Airbus may able to pick off some orders here and there, but the market has already told us that demand is limited for this type of airplane.

MrHMSH wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the amount of each bag is controlled by the airline, and not the number of people. No evidence that longer trips mean bigger or heavier bags.


The argument was more about volume/weight, not density. That's hard to argue against.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:25 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
So you advocate Boeing spend $10B on an A321LRX clone? And compete? Why would an airline spend that much money on a clean sheet narrowbody when they can just integrate another A32X derivative into their fleet?


Yep. The new aircraft should see 10% fuel burn benefit given the A321 is very underwinged for the range. It should also see maintenance benefits from newer systems.

More crucially, it'd be 737 replacement by the back door. So when they come around to it, they've 90% of the risk removed and can hit the ground running. If you folks thought the max/neo ramp ups were hard - the replacements will be easily twice as hard!

Do to the extreme need to manage costs, production ramp up will be tough from now on. No longer is commercial aircraft production at 40% profit. Sigh...

So I agree the replacement ramp up will be tough.

Hence an uncontested space (7-across) prior to a new narrowbody.

There are gains to be made out there.

Lightsaber
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AleksW
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:36 pm

I'm wondering what is the take off distance at MTOM of the A321XLR? Also, 4 main wheels and 100+ tonnes is pretty impressive.
AFAIK, engines will remain at about 150 Kn of thrust, same or very similar to A321LR, NEO and CEO.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:44 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Long and thin is still long and thin. That's the role for this airplane. And as the A321 stretches its legs, its economics must take the hit. Airbus may able to pick off some orders here and there, but the market has already told us that demand is limited for this type of airplane.


How so? With a low-risk option to add some extra routes it seems like there should be some good momentum for the plane, it's not the same as previous aircraft in the space.

The argument was more about volume/weight, not density. That's hard to argue against.


Surely something determined more by climate? I think holidaymakers will more likely choose the length of their holiday based on that as well as time off and money rather than how far they're flying. And Weight is still restricted.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:45 pm

BaconButty wrote:
When there are just two ACT's they go in the aft hold.


The arrangement that I've worked on was always NOSE << 6-4-CT-1-2-3-5 >> TAIL

They did put two ACTs at the very back of the aft hold for A318 Elite, which was a disaster of a project and only took them 3 goes to get right. Even then, it didn't work well with very severe loading restrictions.

I cannot recall exactly where tank 5 finished relative to the rear cargo door. Either way, there were limits imposed on A319CJ operations due to trapped fuel requirements.
 
eidvm
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:50 pm

What sort of volume could be gotten out of using the elevator and tail plane to hold fuel similar to the A330 and use it for management of the CofG throughout flight?
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:29 pm

eidvm wrote:
What sort of volume could be gotten out of using the elevator and tail plane to hold fuel similar to the A330 and use it for management of the CofG throughout flight?


simplistic guestimating:
span/height differences for the A330 vs A320 tail are about 1 : 0.625. volume would thus be ^3 or 1 : 0.244
A330 has 6200l trim tank volume. An A320 would allow (much?) less than 1500l.
Murphy is an optimist
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Airbus A321XLR to have over 100t MTOW, range of 4700 nm

Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:37 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Long and thin is still long and thin. That's the role for this airplane. And as the A321 stretches its legs, its economics must take the hit. Airbus may able to pick off some orders here and there, but the market has already told us that demand is limited for this type of airplane.


How so? With a low-risk option to add some extra routes it seems like there should be some good momentum for the plane, it's not the same as previous aircraft in the space.

The argument was more about volume/weight, not density. That's hard to argue against.


Surely something determined more by climate? I think holidaymakers will more likely choose the length of their holiday based on that as well as time off and money rather than how far they're flying. And Weight is still restricted.


Long and thin is still long and thin. It's a narrow role with difficult economics. The demand profile is very narrow. If demand is sufficiently greater, a widebody is more economical and more flexible in a fleet. If the demand falls only slightly below optimum, the economics quickly deteriorate. The A321XLR may fly farther, but it has to burn more fuel to do it. There's not going to be a direct ratio of increased revenue simply because an airplane is flying 700nm farther, meaning a tightening of the already thin A321ULR margins. It's a narrow market to spend millions of dollars on. If a carrier has the A320 family, then I can see some sprinkling in a few here and there. As we've seen so far with the ULR, demand is tepid.

A length of stay is affected by how far away a destination is. Not many people are taking a long weekend trip for fun between the US and Europe. On the other hand, you might if the destination is a shorter flight away. That's the dynamic at play. I don't know anyone who doesn't take distance into account for the length (and subsequent weight) of their trip. I don't think it's a large factor here, but it is in play when you have limited cargo capability. Of course the airline can impose restrictions, but that also reduces the revenue potential.
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