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beerbus
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Delta orders 10 A330-900 neo's, defers 10 A350-900's

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:42 pm

Delta AIr Lines adds 10 additional A330-900 NEO's

According to Reuters:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... sinessNews


An interesting addition, maybe these replace the reduced A350 order?
Last edited by qf789 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: updated title, new information
 
Arion640
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Re: Delta AIr Lines adds 10 additional A330-900 NEO's

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:43 pm

And people were saying Delta would cancel the original order.
 
Someone83
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Re: Delta AIr Lines adds 10 additional A330-900 NEO's

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:46 pm

beerbus wrote:
An interesting addition, maybe these replace the reduced A350 order?


There was no cancellation of A350s at the same time to match these. So it then is maybe a new and additional order and not a conversion
 
727200
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:41 pm

Since the plane is such a slow seller, ,probably got a real good deal on them.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta AIr Lines adds 10 additional A330-900 NEO's

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:45 pm

Someone83 wrote:
beerbus wrote:
An interesting addition, maybe these replace the reduced A350 order?


There was no cancellation of A350s at the same time to match these. So it then is maybe a new and additional order and not a conversion

Who knows, people were saying the DL 787 order was dead for years (before actually canceled) with the money (deposits) used for the 737-900ERs instead :duck:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:52 pm

Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?
 
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coronado
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:21 pm

I am theorizing this will be a std weight fleet with a transcontinental lie flat set up up front to present a consistent wide body fleet on JFK-LAS, SFO, SEA, ATL-LAX, SFO, SEA and perhaps a new routings such as SEA-IAD and provide a demonstrably superior product to AA, UA and JB. During the peak summer months they can operate some of the seasonal summer extra frequencies to Europe.
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deltal1011man
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:25 pm

I'd be shocked crapless is this isn't a replacement for the 10 359s that were deferred. Hope I am wrong but i wouldn't bet on this being a completely new order.

coronado wrote:
I am theorizing this will be a std weight fleet with a transcontinental lie flat set up up front to present a consistent wide body fleet on JFK-LAS, SFO, SEA, ATL-LAX, SFO, SEA and perhaps a new routings such as SEA-IAD and provide a demonstrably superior product to AA, UA and JB. During the peak summer months they can operate some of the seasonal summer extra frequencies to Europe.

there is virtually no chance of that happening or of any US carrier buying a brand new widebody for domestic flying.
 
sciing
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:29 pm

Did Delta ever order as UFO??
I guess this order is a usual Chinese one.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:30 pm

Delta must seen a deal they could not ignore.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:37 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.

It could of course be that they start on old GE engined 767, those give still good money for freight conversion.

There are heaps of 767 over 20 years old, some of them are going on 30.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:40 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.

The -300As (the few that are left) are domestic planes, they are being replaced by the 739s and A321s not new widebodies. But yeah the 763ERs will be leaving before DL replaces the 77Es.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:46 pm

Seems like more than a coincidence that exactly 10 A350s were deferred. I'd put money down on the switch from A359s to A339s.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.


I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:59 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.


I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.


At least regarding fuel burn, you save money flying an A330-800 or -900 instead of an old 767-300ER in regards to fuel burn per trip. Perhaps a factor with rising fuel prices.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.


I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.


At least regarding fuel burn, you save money flying an A330-800 or -900 instead of an old 767-300ER in regards to fuel burn per trip. Perhaps a factor with rising fuel prices.


Flying around a half empty plane won't work. Some A330 flights get downguaged to 767's in winter. If what you say is true then that wouldn't happen and they would just fly empty seats for the better fuel burn. That's not how it works.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:11 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.


At least regarding fuel burn, you save money flying an A330-800 or -900 instead of an old 767-300ER in regards to fuel burn per trip. Perhaps a factor with rising fuel prices.


Flying around a half empty plane won't work. Some A330 flights get downguaged to 767's in winter. If what you say is true then that wouldn't happen and they would just fly empty seats for the better fuel burn. That's not how it works.

And what exact plane do you purpose to replace 767-300ER with? 787-8? Is that what you're trying to persuade? Sorry, but 787-8 is also in A330-800's capacity territory which DL can grab within months without too much trouble.

There is absolutely nothing to stop Delta from using A330neo, or even A350-900 to replace 767s as they see fit. No one writes on a book that says you have to replace 767-300ER with something that has a very similar capacity.

Michael
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:20 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.


I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.

Delta has plenty of routes that will work fine on the 339 that are currently 764/763. For those that wont the 763/764 fleet that doesn't get parked will fly those routes. Again, Listen to what management keeps saying. The goal is to grow the international side of the business with a lot of upgauging like they have done domestically. An educated guess is ~20-23 763s get replaced by the 339. Some one-for-one (Seattle-Asia) some via trickle down (i.e. current 764 route goes 339 then the 764 goes to said 763 route.)

And there certainly wont be a pilot hiring freeze.



either way, I'm betting these 10 339s are used to add some ICN flying, but thats JMO.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:21 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

At least regarding fuel burn, you save money flying an A330-800 or -900 instead of an old 767-300ER in regards to fuel burn per trip. Perhaps a factor with rising fuel prices.


Flying around a half empty plane won't work. Some A330 flights get downguaged to 767's in winter. If what you say is true then that wouldn't happen and they would just fly empty seats for the better fuel burn. That's not how it works.

And what exact plane do you purpose to replace 767-300ER with? 787-8? Is that what you're trying to persuade? Sorry, but 787-8 is also in A330-800's capacity territory which DL can grab within months without too much trouble.

There is absolutely nothing to stop Delta from using A330neo, or even A350-900 to replace 767s as they see fit. No one writes on a book that says you have to replace 767-300ER with something that has a very similar capacity.

Michael


When did I say they couldn't? I was making the point that it isn't as black and white as they believe it to be. The 787 is more fuel efficient than the A330 but AF, KLM, Virgin, etc still operate both. It depends on the mission.

And yes, unless Airbus offers some new smaller widebody Delta will have no choice but to replace 767's with A330's. But some routes will not be able to handle that much capacity and will either be reduced or eliminated all together.

United is going to be king of the Pacific and Atlantic because they will have the right aircraft for the right mission.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:26 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


Ed is on record as saying international growth is the next phase of the company's growth. Their Us market share is quite healthy and should be turning their focus on more international expansion in the next few years.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.


At least regarding fuel burn, you save money flying an A330-800 or -900 instead of an old 767-300ER in regards to fuel burn per trip. Perhaps a factor with rising fuel prices.


Flying around a half empty plane won't work. Some A330 flights get downguaged to 767's in winter. If what you say is true then that wouldn't happen and they would just fly empty seats for the better fuel burn. That's not how it works.


As it is Delts has both 767 and A330ceo. The A330ceo has a better fuel burn per seat than the 767. The A330neo coming in does change the fuel burn comparison drastically. The A330neo will beat the A330ceo by around 15% per seat and the difference to the 767-300ER will be above 20%. It is about the same step as going from an 757-200 to a 737MAX or A321neo in fuel burn.

Furthermore there are about 35 767-300/300ER with PW engines getting on in years, the youngest more than 20 and the oldest about 29. There are a few old GE powered 767-300ER in between. All the younger ones are GE powered including the 767-400ER. But all 767 are older than the oldest A330ceo.
 
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coronado
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:37 pm

That will be an impressive A330 fleet in a few years, 35 neos plus 39 in the current fleet for a total of 74! Definitely seem to be intended for growth as this is virtually the current fleet count of 767-300+767-400 which IIRC totals 76 aircraft, but with 15-20% more seats depending on the configuration. I see the A332's and several of the older A333 getting upgraded and redeployed as the primary transcon fleet fo Delta offering a consistent wide body fleet competing with the narrow body offerings from AA, B6 and United.
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NateGreat
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:37 pm

Yes, the 777-200ER will need replacement in the coming years (at least 10 years). But, why is Delta giving the aircraft a major overhaul if “the airline is in such a rush to retire them”? If that were the case, then the A332/A333 should have been the ones to get Delta One Suites, Premium Select, possible new Economy Seats, and LED Mood Lighting. The Boeing 777 fleet has plenty of life left in them.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:39 pm

Why take less A350s? The A330-900 clearly does not have the range to fly many of Delta's pacific long haul routes except for the ones from Seattle.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

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marcelh
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:46 pm

727200 wrote:
Since the plane is such a slow seller, ,probably got a real good deal on them.

Airbus won’t lose money on it.
 
777Mech
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


Do what? How are you even arriving at 777 replacement? They are in the middle of a complete overhaul.

These are a mix of expansion and 767 replacement.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:50 pm

Well, so far this year, passenger numbers to North America from CDG are growing by 8%, so, assuming this evolution remains in 2019, that would make a 16.64 % increase in two years 25.97% in three. The low J 767 has a total of 226 passengers, the 339 will have 281, a 24% increase in seat count between the two. Conclusion of my irrefutable facts, the 339 is a perfect replacement for the 767s in three years time and even better it has lower cost.

Prove me, and my grossly exaggerated numbers wrong, I'm waiting.
Last edited by AsiaTravel on Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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coronado
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:51 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
I'd be shocked crapless is this isn't a replacement for the 10 359s that were deferred. Hope I am wrong but i wouldn't bet on this being a completely new order.

coronado wrote:
I am theorizing this will be a std weight fleet with a transcontinental lie flat set up up front to present a consistent wide body fleet on JFK-LAS, SFO, SEA, ATL-LAX, SFO, SEA and perhaps a new routings such as SEA-IAD and provide a demonstrably superior product to AA, UA and JB. During the peak summer months they can operate some of the seasonal summer extra frequencies to Europe.

there is virtually no chance of that happening or of any US carrier buying a brand new widebody for domestic flying.

I should have clarified my thought process. I am thinking this will enable some of the older 332/333 fleet to become the primary transcontinental fleet and provide a WB premium experience compared to AA and B6 and to an extent UA
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MIflyer12
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:01 pm

coronado wrote:
I am theorizing this will be a std weight fleet with a transcontinental lie flat set up up front to present a consistent wide body fleet on JFK-LAS, SFO, SEA, ATL-LAX, SFO, SEA and perhaps a new routings such as SEA-IAD and provide a demonstrably superior product to AA, UA and JB. During the peak summer months they can operate some of the seasonal summer extra frequencies to Europe.


Nah. I'd love to see some domestic widebodies but if they do it will be converting 763s that still have some life, which they can operate at lower utilization. These will make for excellent 764 upgauging on the longest routes. Ten frames wouldn't cover a small fraction of the routes you outlined.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?


I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.


I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.


A pilot hiring freeze? Are you kidding? DL retires 500+ pilots a year for the next decade, with some years approaching 900 a year. Even an economic crash would be unlikely to stop hiring long term at any of the US3 at this point.
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lightsaber
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:16 pm

AsiaTravel wrote:
Well, so far this year, passenger numbers to North America from CDG are growing by 8%, so, assuming this evolution remains in 2019, that would make a 16.64 % increase in two years 25.97% in three. The low J 767 has a total of 226 passengers, the 339 will have 281, a 24% increase in seat count between the two. Conclusion of my irrefutable facts, the 339 is a perfect replacement for the 767s in three years time and even better it has lower cost.

Prove me, and my grossly exaggerated numbers wrong, I'm waiting.

I believe Delta is expanding. I also believe some 767 routes could eventually be replaced with A321LR or 797 /(downgauge) with fragmentation or frequency net increasing the seat count.


This is odd. I'm not a fan of the A339, yet this top off order makes sense to me for DL and the Y passengers they somehow are able to charge a premium. Huh... Most airlines do not earn the RASM (or RASK) premium DL does. But hey, this works for them.

I expect a smaller plane mid-haul order from DL.
I also expect more A339 purchases.

Kudos to DL, Airbus, and RR.

Lightsaber

Late edit:. I see a need for DL to upgauge from 763 ER and some new routes with the A339. Half of all airline seats are sold as expansion. An airline with top margins should be expanding...
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gsg013
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:19 pm

The more and more I think about it the more I see that the 787-8 could work for DL to replace some of the 767.. The other wild card is whether DL continues the strategy of Widebody aircraft on transcons... I really hope so but I could see some of the transcon flying going to a bird like the 797 when they come around.
 
NateGreat
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:37 pm

If Delta really wants to go for a smaller widebody in the next few years, I think they should order the 797.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:38 pm

gsg013 wrote:
The more and more I think about it the more I see that the 787-8 could work for DL to replace some of the 767.. The other wild card is whether DL continues the strategy of Widebody aircraft on transcons... I really hope so but I could see some of the transcon flying going to a bird like the 797 when they come around.


While the 797 would be nice I just can't see it. Delta lives and breathes by Techops contracts and Boeing and GE aren't as willing to give up that kind of potential maintenance revenue. They're not as desperate as Pratt&Whitney. I don't think we will see any new Boeing aircraft at Delta for many years to come. Airbus did a great job securing Delta as an Airbus only customer.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:22 am

gsg013 wrote:
The more and more I think about it the more I see that the 787-8 could work for DL to replace some of the 767.. The other wild card is whether DL continues the strategy of Widebody aircraft on transcons... I really hope so but I could see some of the transcon flying going to a bird like the 797 when they come around.


Why the 787-8, when it would make more sense to add more A330-900 or even -800 when you need a smaller frame.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:26 am

NateGreat wrote:
Yes, the 777-200ER will need replacement in the coming years (at least 10 years). But, why is Delta giving the aircraft a major overhaul if “the airline is in such a rush to retire them”? If that were the case, then the A332/A333 should have been the ones to get Delta One Suites, Premium Select, possible new Economy Seats, and LED Mood Lighting. The Boeing 777 fleet has plenty of life left in them.


I think that is why the 10 A350 were deferred, flying the 777-200ER longer and replace than with A350-900.
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:35 am

coronado wrote:
That will be an impressive A330 fleet in a few years, 35 neos plus 39 in the current fleet for a total of 74!

I remember the days when an order for ten widebodies would get a lot more attention on a.net.

It makes me feel :old: , sigh...

Congrats to DL and Airbus on this nice order.
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deltal1011man
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:35 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
The more and more I think about it the more I see that the 787-8 could work for DL to replace some of the 767.. The other wild card is whether DL continues the strategy of Widebody aircraft on transcons... I really hope so but I could see some of the transcon flying going to a bird like the 797 when they come around.


While the 797 would be nice I just can't see it. Delta lives and breathes by Techops contracts and Boeing and GE aren't as willing to give up that kind of potential maintenance revenue. They're not as desperate as Pratt&Whitney. I don't think we will see any new Boeing aircraft at Delta for many years to come. Airbus did a great job securing Delta as an Airbus only customer.

Boeing doesn't really have anything to do with TechOps and the chances of GE allowing one of the worlds largest GE airlines to become all RR and PW are none. Also there is very little chance that a shop as respectable and as close to GE as TechOps wont be offering GE engine overhauls in the future.

in time deals are always made.

mjoelnir wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Yes, the 777-200ER will need replacement in the coming years (at least 10 years). But, why is Delta giving the aircraft a major overhaul if “the airline is in such a rush to retire them”? If that were the case, then the A332/A333 should have been the ones to get Delta One Suites, Premium Select, possible new Economy Seats, and LED Mood Lighting. The Boeing 777 fleet has plenty of life left in them.


I think that is why the 10 A350 were deferred, flying the 777-200ER longer and replace than with A350-900.
The 359s that were deferred start coming in 2021 or 2022. Not long enough away to be a 777-200ER replacement which is probably closer to 2025 or so.

mjoelnir wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
The more and more I think about it the more I see that the 787-8 could work for DL to replace some of the 767.. The other wild card is whether DL continues the strategy of Widebody aircraft on transcons... I really hope so but I could see some of the transcon flying going to a bird like the 797 when they come around.


Why the 787-8, when it would make more sense to add more A330-900 or even -800 when you need a smaller frame.

because Delta always goes after the best deal? Because they decide they don't want a 338 because if the mom comes they will be able to sell a 787 a lot easier than a 338? because the operate one of the largest MROs in the world and don't want to be left out of all that sweet revenue?

and plenty of other reasons.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.


I'm guessing there will be a hiring freeze or lots of pilot retirements. There's no way you can replace a 763ER with an A330 on a one for one basis. Way too much capacity. Some routes will be cut for sure.


A pilot hiring freeze? Are you kidding? DL retires 500+ pilots a year for the next decade, with some years approaching 900 a year. Even an economic crash would be unlikely to stop hiring long term at any of the US3 at this point.
IIRC around half of the list or so has to be out the door by 2025.

zero chance Delta stops hiring pilots for any long period of time. Even if they were to gut the TATL network (which they can't do because of scope) the retirements of pilots would still cause a need to hire.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:54 am

Let's add a bit of reality to this thread.

1) I can't imagine this is a replacement for 359s. Delta will have a use for every 359 on order even if the current order does not replace any 777s. What I do suspect this might be is an opportunistic deal that allowed Delta to defer 359s with less penalty and Airbus to add a few badly needed 339 orders.

2) The 333 and 339 both have significantly lower fuel burn per seat than the 763, but they don't have lower absolute fuel burn or trip cost. If they did, we would see the 330 fleet continue to be used at maximum capacity during the winter, with quite a few 767s parked. Instead we see some slack in both the 330 and 763 fleets. Even the 787, which has a fuel burn advantage over either generation of 330, can't quite match 763 trip cost.

3) If there is any widebody flying substantial numbers of domestic transcons in the future, it will be a 797. The A330 is great, but it's too much airplane for those missions. You'll see A330s or other international widebodies flying domestically in the same situations you do today: for positioning or on specific trips with very high premium demand.
 
trex8
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 am

NateGreat wrote:
If Delta really wants to go for a smaller widebody in the next few years, I think they should order the 797.

Define next few years, 797 not likely to EIS before 2025 at earliest (if you believe Boeing and maybe 2 years later if you believe other aviation pundits). You need something in any number sooner than that you need to look at whats being produced today, or a derivative of whats presently available..
 
flyabr
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:06 am

gsg013 wrote:
The more and more I think about it the more I see that the 787-8 could work for DL to replace some of the 767.. The other wild card is whether DL continues the strategy of Widebody aircraft on transcons... I really hope so but I could see some of the transcon flying going to a bird like the 797 when they come around.


If DL had any interest in the 788, they'd of ordered it by now.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:14 am

Off-topic but does Delta have enough current narrowbody aircraft on order to replace the 738 and A320? The 738 isn't getting any cabin updates so I assume it's days are numbered. They have the A220, 100 A320neo and 100 A320neo options. The A220 and A321ceo will replace MD-88 and MD-90 so it seems they have enough aircraft on order to renew the narrowbody fleet.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:19 am

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

At least regarding fuel burn, you save money flying an A330-800 or -900 instead of an old 767-300ER in regards to fuel burn per trip. Perhaps a factor with rising fuel prices.


Flying around a half empty plane won't work. Some A330 flights get downguaged to 767's in winter. If what you say is true then that wouldn't happen and they would just fly empty seats for the better fuel burn. That's not how it works.


As it is Delts has both 767 and A330ceo. The A330ceo has a better fuel burn per seat than the 767. The A330neo coming in does change the fuel burn comparison drastically. The A330neo will beat the A330ceo by around 15% per seat and the difference to the 767-300ER will be above 20%. It is about the same step as going from an 757-200 to a 737MAX or A321neo in fuel burn.

Furthermore there are about 35 767-300/300ER with PW engines getting on in years, the youngest more than 20 and the oldest about 29. There are a few old GE powered 767-300ER in between. All the younger ones are GE powered including the 767-400ER. But all 767 are older than the oldest A330ceo.


They have several 763's from 2000/01, but they'll all be gone in the next couple years from the sounds of it.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
flyabr
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Off-topic but does Delta have enough current narrowbody aircraft on order to replace the 738 and A320? The 738 isn't getting any cabin updates so I assume it's days are numbered. They have the A220, 100 A320neo and 100 A320neo options. The A220 and A321ceo will replace MD-88 and MD-90 so it seems they have enough aircraft on order to renew the narrowbody fleet.


DL has 100 A321neos on order, with 100 options. Suspect some of those A321neos will replace the 738 and A320ceo.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:03 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Why take less A350s? The A330-900 clearly does not have the range to fly many of Delta's pacific long haul routes except for the ones from Seattle.


Delta may be deferring for the 251t version, which would have roughly the same range as the Boeing 777-200ER.
 
NateGreat
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:04 am

trex8 wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
If Delta really wants to go for a smaller widebody in the next few years, I think they should order the 797.

Define next few years, 797 not likely to EIS before 2025 at earliest (if you believe Boeing and maybe 2 years later if you believe other aviation pundits). You need something in any number sooner than that you need to look at whats being produced today, or a derivative of whats presently available..

In the next 10 years. It will be some time before all the 767-300ERs will be gone.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:10 am

seabosdca wrote:
Let's add a bit of reality to this thread.

1) I can't imagine this is a replacement for 359s. Delta will have a use for every 359 on order even if the current order does not replace any 777s. What I do suspect this might be is an opportunistic deal that allowed Delta to defer 359s with less penalty and Airbus to add a few badly needed 339 orders.

2) The 333 and 339 both have significantly lower fuel burn per seat than the 763, but they don't have lower absolute fuel burn or trip cost. If they did, we would see the 330 fleet continue to be used at maximum capacity during the winter, with quite a few 767s parked. Instead we see some slack in both the 330 and 763 fleets. Even the 787, which has a fuel burn advantage over either generation of 330, can't quite match 763 trip cost.

3) If there is any widebody flying substantial numbers of domestic transcons in the future, it will be a 797. The A330 is great, but it's too much airplane for those missions. You'll see A330s or other international widebodies flying domestically in the same situations you do today: for positioning or on specific trips with very high premium demand.


the A330ceo does not have lower trip fuel burn than the 767-300ER, but the A330neo has. Big difference, not in the same category. I have to say I am not talking about short domestic hops. I expect the younger 767 to move over to domestic routes, on long haul they will be outclassed.
As Delta has not received any A330neo yet, you can hardly be aware of if Delta would substitute a 767 for an A330neo in winter.

The 797 is a Boeings fan boy's dream, still an absolut paper aeroplane. One can hardly expect Delta to fly a number of 767 far past 30 years of age, while waiting for the possibility of a 797.

Delta has 79 767 to be replaced, average age 21.4 years, oldest frame 28.6 years old. I can believe that if and when the 797 should come, that the youngest ones will be replaced by it.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 25012
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Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:31 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The 797 is a Boeings fan boy's dream, still an absolut paper aeroplane.

Then I guess DL's CEO is a fan boy too:

The No. 2 U.S. carrier wants to be one of the first to fly a potential new mid-sized jetliner from Boeing, said Delta Chief Executive Officer Ed Bastian.

That’s a vote of confidence from one of the most influential aircraft buyers as Boeing decides whether to build the plane, dubbed the 797 by analysts.

“You’re going to see us participate in Boeing’s middle-of-the-market campaign,” Bastian said. “I hope that we’re going to be a launch customer on that program as well.”

I bet Ed has some interesting paper that has lots of data on the 797.

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ls-797-jet
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8794
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Off-topic but does Delta have enough current narrowbody aircraft on order to replace the 738 and A320? The 738 isn't getting any cabin updates so I assume it's days are numbered.


They just put new Y seats, lavs, and AVOD in 45 738s - another 30 already had AVOD. And 2Ku wifi in all 738s. IMHO, they are unlikely to retire a single 738 within the next five years.
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Reuters: Airbus likely sold 10 A330neo jets to Delta

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:27 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
Why take less A350s? The A330-900 clearly does not have the range to fly many of Delta's pacific long haul routes except for the ones from Seattle.


Delta may be deferring for the 251t version, which would have roughly the same range as the Boeing 777-200ER.


I see. As long they don't cancel these orders outright and replace them with the A339, I'll be happy.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
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