PSAatSAN4Ever
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The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:17 pm

This might perhaps belong in the Tech/Ops forums, so moderators, if that is the case, please feel free to move.

I have followed for many years the ins and outs of inter-island travel in Hawai'i, and I would like to start a discussion on the needs of Hawaiian and any other airline that would like to continue to fly or start to fly between the islands of the 50th state.

* What kind of engine technology will airlines be looking for in new airplanes? (737-200's did well, 737-300's did not)
* Are there currently planes that can handle the stresses of multiple daily flights in a tropical environment besides the 717?
* Will we see various second-hand airliners taking up the job when the 717's disappear? Or will it require something completely new?

Knowing how vital air traffic is in Hawai'i - and how planes do not last forever, especially in hot & humid environments - fleet replacement is something HA is probably considering right now. I haven't been able to find anything about this, so I hope the board here will enlighten me. Thanks in advance for your replies!!
 
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m0ssy
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:05 am

Out of ignorance I'd be interesting in knowing why a 717 performs better in tropical conditions than a 737?
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TTailedTiger
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:07 am

Could some of AA's newer MD-80's end up in Hawaii? They are very robust and the engines can handle the multiple daily cycles.
 
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:11 am

no to the MD-80s, theres plenty of 717s that Delta will be getting rid of eventually, I imagine Hawaiian could buy a few of them for cheap and use the extra planes to keep the cycles low and extend the life of the 717s. Id say theres an easy 15 more years left in those planes
 
WN732
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Could some of AA's newer MD-80's end up in Hawaii? They are very robust and the engines can handle the multiple daily cycles.


Hawaiian already had MD-80's. Been there done that.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:22 am

The Airbus A220 could be used for interisland flights, and the Airbus A220 also has the range to reach the contiguous U.S. nonstop from Hawaii. The range of the A220-100 is 3567 mi, and the range of the A220-300 is 3797 mi. SEA, PDX, SMF, SFO, OAK, SJC, LAX, BUR, ONT, SNA, LGB, and SAN are all less than 2800 mi from Hawaii.

I think that HA could order the A220-300 to replace the 717's, and one advantage of the A220-300 over the 717's is that HA can likely fly the A220-300's nonstop to the contiguous U.S. for maintenance without having to install extra fuel tanks whereas HA has to install extra fuel tanks to fly 717's to the contiguous U.S. from Hawaii for maintenance.
 
777PHX
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:25 am

m0ssy wrote:
Out of ignorance I'd be interesting in knowing why a 717 performs better in tropical conditions than a 737?


Hawaiian's unique business model of super quick turns on the ground into short flights in the air is hard on most engines as they never have a chance to cool. The 717 is apparently the only jet engine equipped commercial aircraft that can take that sort of punishment.
 
Antarius
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:28 am

m0ssy wrote:
Out of ignorance I'd be interesting in knowing why a 717 performs better in tropical conditions than a 737?


It has to do with the short flights and cool down time. HA can have a 717 do 15-20 flights in a single day. The higher bypass CFM engines on a 737 have less stages and run hotter than the corresponding engine on a 717.

As a result, a 737 would have to sit on the ground for a lot longer than HA needs. HA can fly HNL-OGG (~20 mins), deboard and board in 15, fly to ITO (<30 mins) and repeat.
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usxguy
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:09 am

Mokulele's E170s, well Shuttle America, actually did well - Mokulele had them on some fairly decent turns though. They'd also route a plane on a short - hop then do a longer hop, so a plane would *try* to do LIH-HNL-KOA and OGG-HNL-ITO, instead of OGG-HNL-OGG, or LIH-HNL-OGG. The wear & tear on the engines wasn't nearly as bad on go!'s CRJ 200s though (aren't they the same core, though?). go! had significantly shorter turn times.
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JHwk
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:23 am

The simple answer is more planes with more time on the ground and tag flights. More planes isn't a huge issue when you get them cheap, although logistics will be a pain.
 
Max Q
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:23 am

Seems like an ideal network for a future electric powered short haul aircraft
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chunhimlai
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:32 am

Build tunnels/bridge to connect them
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:45 am

m0ssy wrote:
Out of ignorance I'd be interesting in knowing why a 717 performs better in tropical conditions than a 737?


The engine. The BR715 is able to hand high cycles and short turnaround times better than the CFM56/LEAP. HA has publicly said that there is nothing on the market that can handle HA's workload engine-wise. The 717s replaced the DC-9s in this regard. If Airbus could offer the A220-100 with an engine like a more powerful BR700-series engine, that would be a potential replacement for the 717 down the line. If HA didn't already have the 717, the Embraer 190/195 could potentially work, but even at B6, they don't get the workload that they would at HA, and at B6, they operate in a more temperate environment where they have the most frequent turns and flights.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:03 am

How did Island Air's Q400's perform on these short hops? Inter island may go back to turboprops
 
AWACSooner
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Max Q wrote:
Why is it so important to a few members to silence others ? !

Ask the mods.

Back to the topic at hand. I always chuckle at the folks who are so quick to try and say that the ONLY replacement would be the A220, completely forgetting that a certain company south of the equator also has a competitive product that just might have a say in the matter.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:34 am

AWACSooner wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Why is it so important to a few members to silence others ? !

Ask the mods.

Back to the topic at hand. I always chuckle at the folks who are so quick to try and say that the ONLY replacement would be the A220, completely forgetting that a certain company south of the equator also has a competitive product that just might have a say in the matter.


Can that certain company south of the equator's aircraft also double as a TransPac aircraft like the A220?

If so, very good.
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AWACSooner
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:46 am

airportugal310 wrote:

Can that certain company south of the equator's aircraft also double as a TransPac aircraft like the A220?

If so, very good.

Can easily make it west coast to Hawaii
https://www.embraercommercialaviation.c ... rcial-jet/
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Thank you all for your replies.

Hawai'i depends very much on inter-island flights, and not just any plane will do. Air travel, for the islands, is a necessity, not a luxury. There are no inter-island trucks or trains, and ships can't do everything. Somehow, an engine that can handle the multiple short hops will have to be developed, and it will have to work on a plane big enough to hold some cargo. What I wanted to discuss was the possibilities of anyone coming up with something new that could take on these tasks.

By the way, I fully expected a round of "use the search feature" and "stop wasting our time" with this, but I also know that most everything on airliners.net is a re-hash of something else. However, I will only again say "thank you" to those who contributed positively and not acknowledge anything else. Y'all rock.
 
ScottB
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:14 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Somehow, an engine that can handle the multiple short hops will have to be developed, and it will have to work on a plane big enough to hold some cargo. What I wanted to discuss was the possibilities of anyone coming up with something new that could take on these tasks.


Well, no, an engine appropriate to multiple short hops isn't necessarily required. In the absence of a like-for-like replacement of the 717, HA would likely just make do with a different fleet type and adjust their operations to compensate. That might not be ideal, and prices for interisland travel might rise, but in the end, would there be much choice otherwise? With relatively limited competition in the wake of the collapse of AQ, HA could certainly adjust and help manage the higher costs by reducing frequency and upgauging to A320/A321 for interisland flying.

Unless there's another large potential customer with similar operational requirements, it makes little sense today for an engine maker to target an engine program to a total global market of around 50 units.
 
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msp747
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:40 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
How did Island Air's Q400's perform on these short hops? Inter island may go back to turboprops

It would be interesting to see if they considered this an option. They wouldn't give up much speed compared with the current jet fleet, and QX has shown double-door boarding/deplaning can help with quick turns.

However, since they already have ATRs in the fleet, I think it would be a long shot for them to go with the Q400.
 
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:19 pm

Hawaii is not the only place in the world where short hop planes are needed. To say otherwise is strange and not useful. I would note that short hop planes, almost by definition, do not need to be fast. Boarding, taxiing, and getting off and on the grounds are the time consumers.
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:32 pm

ScottB wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Somehow, an engine that can handle the multiple short hops will have to be developed, and it will have to work on a plane big enough to hold some cargo. What I wanted to discuss was the possibilities of anyone coming up with something new that could take on these tasks.


Well, no, an engine appropriate to multiple short hops isn't necessarily required. In the absence of a like-for-like replacement of the 717, HA would likely just make do with a different fleet type and adjust their operations to compensate. That might not be ideal, and prices for interisland travel might rise, but in the end, would there be much choice otherwise? With relatively limited competition in the wake of the collapse of AQ, HA could certainly adjust and help manage the higher costs by reducing frequency and upgauging to A320/A321 for interisland flying.

Unless there's another large potential customer with similar operational requirements, it makes little sense today for an engine maker to target an engine program to a total global market of around 50 units.


Actually, in Hawai'i, it is. There are no 737's plying the skies anymore there inter-island, other than Aloha Cargo, because only the -200 model engines could cool down fast enough. The -300 was tried, and there were operational issues galore, and any further 737 is going to have the same issue.

Hawai'i depends upon quick turn-arounds and multiple short hops per day. Most jet engines are designed for longer distances and a bit more down time. Eventually the 717's are going to reach the end of the usefulness and a replacement will be needed. Somehow, this will have to be dealt with by an engine manufacturer.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:40 pm

I'd like to see more turboprops. I know the flying public doesn't think they're cool as jets, but if they work well in an interisland network, are economical, and can move people nearly as fast as jets, they may prove a viable alternative. Does anyone have any insights into how well Hawaiian/Ohana is doing with their ATRs? What they think about them? So on...
 
ScottB
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:45 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Hawaii is not the only place in the world where short hop planes are needed. To say otherwise is strange and not useful.


But it's relatively unique with respect to the operational requirements: extremely short hops with quick turns in between, and inadequate time at cruise or on the ground for the engines to cool, combined with year-round warm ambient temperatures. Plus the geographic isolation makes tags on to longer segments largely impractical.

If there were a huge market for aircraft in the niche HA needs for interisland operations, we'd have seen a lot more sales for the 717.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Hawai'i depends upon quick turn-arounds and multiple short hops per day. Most jet engines are designed for longer distances and a bit more down time. Eventually the 717's are going to reach the end of the usefulness and a replacement will be needed. Somehow, this will have to be dealt with by an engine manufacturer.


Why do you think an engine manufacturer will be forced to come up with a solution if the market just isn't large enough to make a business case for the product? HA has under two dozen 717s; replacing that fleet won't pay the expense of a multi-billion-dollar engine program.
 
bob75013
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:46 pm

[quote="PSAatSAN4Ever"



Actually, in Hawai'i, it is. There are no 737's plying the skies anymore there inter-island, other than Aloha Cargo, because only the -200 model engines could cool down fast enough. The -300 was tried, and there were operational issues galore, and any further 737 is going to have the same issue.

.[/quote]

There will be next year when WN starts doing inter-island
 
workhorse
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:01 pm

High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?
 
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:58 pm

workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


You may not dream (even though what you are suggesting is a fantastic idea), locals are opposed to any ferry idea due to the adverse impact on the reefs, potential to collide with whales, and the increase in traffic it would cause (Honolulu has some of the worst traffic in the US, Maui is starting to see some traffic as well)

You can google the superferry experiment, it only took 3 hours and costed 30$ iirc, but I doubt well see anything like it soon.

Whats the chances of Hawaiian working with an engine developer to make some sort of custom engine?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:07 pm

I imagine HA will be one of the first on the order books for an electric narrowbody. Until then I would expect turboprops or simply more planes flying fewer hours each will just have to be done.
 
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aloha73g
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:16 pm

workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!
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azjubilee
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:52 am

aloha73g wrote:
workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!


Indeed. These aren’t the beautifully calm waters of Puget Sound or Sydney harbor. When anyone suggests we have a ferry system like Seattle and Sydney, I hope they can imagine scream-vomiting. Lol.

Then there’s the ludicrous idea of HAL replacing 717s with t-props.

But everyone’s an expert here, right?
 
JHwk
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:04 am

Wish I had a chance to do the Superferry. Oh well. Are the waters really rougher than HK-Macau though? 2m seas seems to be the normal-bad in both places, although I haven't sailed through the Pailolo channel.

But, the reality is that the planes used for inter-island will do mainland legs to balance cycles and the 717 type of flying will be gone when there is no replacement. It won't be for a good 15 years or so, but it is likely to take 20 years before an all electric solution exists.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:17 am

aloha73g wrote:
workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!


Based on the much shorter but more common ferry rides (like Lahaina-Lanai/Moloka’i), I can only imagine. Many of the prospective high-volume ferry corridors are moderately rough on the best days and go downhill from there.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:27 am

There’s no way a custom engine will be built IF Intra-Island Hawaii is the only buyer, which seems likely. There can’t be another operation with the short legs, high volume and rapid turns come together. Electric, remote as it is, has the problem of recharging on those short turns.

GF
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:31 am

[quote="m0ssy"]Out of ignorance I'd be interesting in knowing why a 717 performs better in tropical conditions

The engine core cools quicker due to the design. The CFM56 takes longer to cool down. Hawaiian flights operate very short routes in high humidity. Results in not enough time at cruise altitude to cool the engines properly. Result is longer time at gates to allow the engines to cool between flights. 737's would require more frames than the 717 to do the rotations.
 
QXAS
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:39 am

I’ve seen the CSeries/A220 suggested for this role many times. Can the engine handle it? If it can’t then it’s the same issue and HA might as well just buy more A321s for dispatch flexibility. The best option IMO is to do what the USAF does with the B-52. Acquire as many 717s as possible and rotate them through storage to keep their cycles low. Not ideal but it’s that or turboprops. If the A220 engine can handle takeoff power every 40-60 minutes, I’d be happy to be wrong. Same goes for Embraer. If it can handle the brutal schedule, excellent.
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:04 am

Again, thank you to everyone for your replies.

The conclusion I am drawing thus far is that only the engines seem to be the issue. So, a further question: is there an engine manufacturer that could offer a re-engining of a 737 or A320 series aircraft to operate inter-island? And would such technology be applicable in any way to the rest of the world?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:28 am

Assuming this is a unique operation in its timing and tempo of operations, you’d have to come up with a business case where the revenue could cover the engineering and certifications for a small fleet of 20 frames. Re-engining could easily cost $1,500 million, so figure capital cost per plane of $75 million plus acquisition cost of the donor planes.

You’d have to design a new engine or a very deep redesign of an existing engine; integrate into the A320 or B737, certify it and support the design for its life. Very unrealistic.
GF
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:36 am

This was an older thread on interisland where this was discussed extensively. Basically, all of the newer high bypass engines burn up when flights can be less than 15 min with times between takeoffs being as short as 40 min. So far only the 737-200 can do it, the -300 and above in the 737 fry in a short time. Similar with the A320. The 717 and it's Mad Dog brethren can handle it acceptably. A number of other planes have been tried. Certain birds see 16-20 cycles per day so approaching 7,000 cycles a year. I would guess HA will hoard all the 717's that are low cycle.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=599993&p=9459991&hilit=Hawaii#p9459991
 
IADFCO
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:02 am

If insufficient engine cool down time is the problem, develop a contraption that blows cold air into the engine during stops. Cheaper than developing a new engine.
 
A350
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:46 am

Isn‘t China building a Mad Dog clone?
 
Bazooka
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:54 am

m0ssy wrote:
Out of ignorance I'd be interesting in knowing why a 717 performs better in tropical conditions than a 737?


It doesn't!
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:14 am

A350 wrote:
Isn‘t China building a Mad Dog clone?


The ARJ21 uses a more modern turbofan so would suffer from the same issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_CF34

It keeps coming down to the fact that for HA there is no nice cheap drop in replacement available. Either they'll need more planes or pay an engine manufacturer for a special one off engine that they'll need to get certified for the plane they want to use.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:22 pm

I agree with others that HA will buy up used 717s and keep them going for another 15 years, and after that I see the market dividing slightly with ATR72s (or the like) operating the majority of frequencies with A321s (or the like) interspersed for cargo capacity with longer turnaround times. It's not really realistic for the entire schedule to be operated with high bypass turbofans as it will become highly inefficient operationally, but also the props lack the cargo capacity needed on these routes.
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TOGA10
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:44 pm

azjubilee wrote:
aloha73g wrote:
workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!


Indeed. These aren’t the beautifully calm waters of Puget Sound or Sydney harbor. When anyone suggests we have a ferry system like Seattle and Sydney, I hope they can imagine scream-vomiting. Lol.

Then there’s the ludicrous idea of HAL replacing 717s with t-props.

But everyone’s an expert here, right?

What's wrong with replacing them by T-props? Seem like the ideal tool for the job, but I might be missing something vital.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
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cathay747
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:04 pm

azjubilee wrote:
aloha73g wrote:
workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!


Indeed. These aren’t the beautifully calm waters of Puget Sound or Sydney harbor. When anyone suggests we have a ferry system like Seattle and Sydney, I hope they can imagine scream-vomiting. Lol.


Scream-vomiting...absolutely brilliant, love it!! :rotfl:

I can vouch for this too. Back in Nov. 1976 I had the "pleasure" of taking the somewhat short-lived "SeaFlite" hydrofoil service roundtrip between HNL and Kauai, and I can tell you that the Kauai Channel isn't for the faint-of-heart either. They utilized the Boeing 929 JetFoil, same as Far East Jetfoils used for many years between HKG & Macau. From HNL to Kauai we had 20-foot swells and TWICE an air bubble developed in the water intake for the propulsion system, which causes it to shutdown, bringing the boat down off the foils so you are "hull-borne" and I gotta tell you at that point, those 20-foot swells suddenly looked like Kilimanjaro; I got so sick :crazy: that jumping overboard and being eaten alive by a Great White became an attractive option. For the return the seas weren't as bad, but having learned my lesson I prepped with Dramamine and was fine. But yeah...never again!!
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:51 pm

cathay747 wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
aloha73g wrote:

I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!


Indeed. These aren’t the beautifully calm waters of Puget Sound or Sydney harbor. When anyone suggests we have a ferry system like Seattle and Sydney, I hope they can imagine scream-vomiting. Lol.


Scream-vomiting...absolutely brilliant, love it!! :rotfl:

I can vouch for this too. Back in Nov. 1976 I had the "pleasure" of taking the somewhat short-lived "SeaFlite" hydrofoil service roundtrip between HNL and Kauai, and I can tell you that the Kauai Channel isn't for the faint-of-heart either. They utilized the Boeing 929 JetFoil, same as Far East Jetfoils used for many years between HKG & Macau. From HNL to Kauai we had 20-foot swells and TWICE an air bubble developed in the water intake for the propulsion system, which causes it to shutdown, bringing the boat down off the foils so you are "hull-borne" and I gotta tell you at that point, those 20-foot swells suddenly looked like Kilimanjaro; I got so sick :crazy: that jumping overboard and being eaten alive by a Great White became an attractive option. For the return the seas weren't as bad, but having learned my lesson I prepped with Dramamine and was fine. But yeah...never again!!


There is still a services of Boeing 929 choosing the channel between japan and south Korea.

I’m from HK and travel a lot between HK and Macau. Sow time the sea can become very rough even the ferries are only traveling not to far away from the land. I can’t image traveling on the high speed ferry between Haiwai islands
 
DaveFly
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:52 pm

FWIW, here’s a video I shot of a Dash-8 hop from JHM West Kapalua to HNL Honolulu. Interesting takeoff procedure on the 3000-ft runway!
https://youtu.be/R2EJfvyVpl0
717,727,737,747,757,767,777,787
L1011,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD80/90
A300,A319,320,321,330,340,
CRJ,E135/45/190,
DH8,Avro85,DHBeaver,AstarHelo,F100,ATR42
 
77H
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:25 pm

QXAS wrote:
I’ve seen the CSeries/A220 suggested for this role many times. Can the engine handle it? If it can’t then it’s the same issue and HA might as well just buy more A321s for dispatch flexibility. The best option IMO is to do what the USAF does with the B-52. Acquire as many 717s as possible and rotate them through storage to keep their cycles low. Not ideal but it’s that or turboprops. If the A220 engine can handle takeoff power every 40-60 minutes, I’d be happy to be wrong. Same goes for Embraer. If it can handle the brutal schedule, excellent.


Unlike HA, USAF has an endless supply of capital at its disposal in the form of taxpayer revenue. The government, particularly the DoD couldn’t care less how many millions, if not billions they waste trying to keep a 60+ year old bomber fleet active. Rest assured, HA’s investors/shareholders would likely push to have any exec even contemplating buying multiple frames as “cold spares” to be shown the door with unparalleled expedience.

If I remember correctly Boeing was able to expend the useful life of the 717 (and some other MD80 series types) by increasing the number of cycles they can run before needing to be retired. This has bought HA some valuable time to ponder replacements.

The truth is, if nothing comes along that can match the 717’s performance operating interisland runs, Kama Aina and visitors may just have to accept less frequency to accommodate for longer turns times of more modern types.
Any model HA chooses will need to be able to accommodate ample passenger baggage as well as odd-size items such surfboards and golf bags. My understanding is that HA does quite a bit of bulk cargo hauling as well between the islands so any aircraft they choose will have to match or at least come close to the cargo capacity of the 717 unless they grow their dedicated freighter fleet and start using them to haul passenger baggage and larger items, which seems unlikely.

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77H
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:32 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
aloha73g wrote:

I rode the Superferry once from O'ahu to Maui and it was the most hellish, miserable, uncomfortable and disgusting 3 hours of my life (imagine hundreds of people scream-vomiting). We all said never again and flew back to HNL. Interisland ferries are not a dream, they are a nightmare.

-Aloha!


Indeed. These aren’t the beautifully calm waters of Puget Sound or Sydney harbor. When anyone suggests we have a ferry system like Seattle and Sydney, I hope they can imagine scream-vomiting. Lol.

Then there’s the ludicrous idea of HAL replacing 717s with t-props.

But everyone’s an expert here, right?

What's wrong with replacing them by T-props? Seem like the ideal tool for the job, but I might be missing something vital.


I agree. With the exception of longer routes like KOA-LIH and maybe HNL-ITO, most of the routes HA flies are short enough where the speed advantage of turbofan engines is largely negligible compared to turboprops like the Q400. When WP was operating Q400s and even older AT72s flight times were not that dissimilar to HA’s 717s.

As for the negative perceptions props often carry, I would remind everyone that Mokulele has carved out fairly successful niche for themselves operating slow C208s interisland. Plenty of people use them so it may not be as big a barrier as some think.

77H
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:11 pm

And don't forget if people are presented with the option of a ferry or turboprop as the only two options from getting island to island at a cheapish cost. Well, opinion would quickly adapt.

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