Aptivaboy
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:29 am

In comparison, this is a Washington State Ferry that operates within Puget Sound, never noticed any significant tossing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic-class_ferry


I took a similar but much older ferry from Port Angeles across to British Columbia many years ago and the ride was smooth as glass. However, you have to look at how the ships are designed. The Olympic class' ro-ro deck is so close to the waterline that it would never survive on the open ocean. It mainly travels in calmer inland waterways, or at least far more protected sounds and channels. That particular ferry design would never survive the waters off of Hawaii.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:25 am

I believe the problem isn’t the ground cooling time, it’s the fact the legs are so short the engines don’t have time to stabilize internal temps. It goes from take-off and climb power, very short cruise, then idle to final. The engines are expanding under load and heat, then without stable time, go to idle. Ground cooling and rotor bow can be handled with motoring after shutdown or, more commonly, before start.

GF
 
seven3seven
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:27 am

I scratch my head at all these people who seem to know the 737 can't do inter-island. I fly the damn thing and there's nothing in our manuals other than an engine start temp. limitation. That was a slight issue on the 300 but we did quick turns all day long just by motoring the engine longer to bring the temp down before introducing fuel. The NG engine is much much better at cooling to meet the engine start temp limitation and will not be an issue.

Inter island on the 737 for Southwest will not be a problem at all. Enjoy the cheaper fares locals.

Prove me wrong
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barney captain
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:59 am

seven3seven wrote:
I scratch my head at all these people who seem to know the 737 can't do inter-island. I fly the damn thing and there's nothing in our manuals other than an engine start temp. limitation. That was a slight issue on the 300 but we did quick turns all day long just by motoring the engine longer to bring the temp down before introducing fuel. The NG engine is much much better at cooling to meet the engine start temp limitation and will not be an issue.

Inter island on the 737 for Southwest will not be a problem at all. Enjoy the cheaper fares locals.

Prove me wrong


As we've recently learned - there's plenty of stuff that isn't in our manuals. Ahem.

This isn't some made-up scenario - it was experienced first-hand by Aloha. And it was the NG's they had issues with. It wasn't that the NG's couldn't do it, it was simply that it increased wear on the CFM's and proved to be problematic and costly. Now, will SWA's NG's experience this? Dunno. Also, the larger question is will the MAX's? They will eventually be replacing the NG's on the ETOPS flights. And it's been clearly shown - those LEAP engines require tremendous TLC. With the Bowed Shaft Motoring, it can take over 5 full minutes just to get both started. Not to mention increased mandatory warm-up and cool-down times over the NG's (that is definitely in our manual btw - not just the start temp limit).
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wnflyguy
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:48 pm

WN's not going to be doing any quick turns in Hawaii for inter Island flying. Minimum turns will be 55 minutes. HNL with it's Dual Airstairs Boarding may drop it to 45 minutes.
ETOPS turns will probably be around 90mins.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
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RWA380
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:18 am

cathay747 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Also this makes you wonder how Southwest plans to handle its inter-island flights.


No issue. From what I've read, WN is only going to be operating a handful of inter-island flights which will in essence all be tags off of Mainland-Hawaii flights; they're not setting up an inter-island operation to rival HA. They're probably going to have aircraft do round-robin's such as SNA-HNL-OGG-SNA and with I'd guess about 45mins. to 1hr. ground time between legs, or however much time is needed for the engines to cool.


WN has added ITO to it's roster of Hawaiian destinations, no word yet on if it'll be only inter-island service or if there will be direct flights to the mainland from Hilo.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:08 pm

My suspicion is that electric ferries are really good on short hops, say 10-12 miles or so. Washington DOT has planned to add electric to most of its newer ferries at their 25 year major rebuild.

But there is a major power difference between planes/autos/trucks and boats at hull speed. The former use full power for acceleration and then can back off on power/fuel use, but the boats use full power to maintain speed. Our new ferries cruise speed and maximum speed are the same.
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WPvsMW
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:05 pm

Google "Hawaii Super Ferry", please.
 
HermansCVR580
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:57 pm

What are the average total cycles on the Hawaiian 717's? Is there a possibility of Boeing doing like Northwest did in the early 90's with their DC-9's to extend the life on them say 5-10 years down the road from now? Or is this a different animal because of the salt air and corrosion so it would make it a mute point to extend the life cycle of the air frame.
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drgmobile
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:38 pm

In the medium term, an early generation of passenger carrying electric aircraft like the one that Zunum is developing (with the backing of JetBlue and Boeing). Longer term, drones. And they'd probably bypass airports and head straight to major resorts. By 2030/40. This is the perfect kind of market for early adoption. Low distance, lots of repetitive hops.
 
B1168
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:54 am

One moment. Nobody thought of the Bombardier CS series planes? Aren’t they fit in size and outstanding in efficiency?
 
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MD80
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:38 am

HermansCVR580 wrote:
What are the average total cycles on the Hawaiian 717's? Is there a possibility of Boeing doing like Northwest did in the early 90's with their DC-9's to extend the life on them say 5-10 years down the road from now? Or is this a different animal because of the salt air and corrosion so it would make it a mute point to extend the life cycle of the air frame.


I don´t now the average total cycles. IIRC, the oldest Boeing 717 of Hawaiian accomplished approx. 60000 cycles in 2016/17. Sadly, there are no detailed information available regarding the utilization of the Boeing 717s at Hawaiian. A number of sources claim eleven to fifteen (!) cycles per day depending of the schedules planned for an individual aircraft. One Hawaiian Air DC-9-51 accomplished more than 95000 cycles prior to her retirement. It´s simply amazing, how the Boeing 717 can cope with such an intense work load and most other aircraft-types in this category can´t cope with the demanding nature of the inter island schedules and/or are simply not that suitable.

The A220 may be an amazing aircraft. However, the high performance of the A220 is probably not the most efficient solution for these very short missions?
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
B1168
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:55 am

Is there any possibility that somehow Hawaiian adapt to the newest short haul electricity-powered planes within 15 years and lease A220 and E-jets to hang in the traffic?
 
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RWA380
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:59 am

I am unsure if this has been mentioned, ITO is now on the list of cities WN plans to serve in Hawaii, not sure if it's only Inter-Island or if there will be non-stop mainland flights.
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usxguy
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:24 am

RWA380 wrote:
I am unsure if this has been mentioned, ITO is now on the list of cities WN plans to serve in Hawaii, not sure if it's only Inter-Island or if there will be non-stop mainland flights.


Every whisper I'm hearing is consistent. Lots of "round robin" type flights to maximize loads and also offer interisland.

Example: OAK-HNL(crew swap)-KOA-SMF as one option, then SMF-KOA(crew swap)-HNL-OGG-HNL-KOA-HNL-OGG(crew swap)-SMF... and so on. That's probably the only way to make Hilo work.

So its not going to be full-on inter-island like Mokulele and Island Air offered, but more slow, gradual growth. I don't see WN offering 18 HNL/OGGs, but maybe 5. That's all they really need...
xx
 
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RWA380
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:46 pm

usxguy wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
I am unsure if this has been mentioned, ITO is now on the list of cities WN plans to serve in Hawaii, not sure if it's only Inter-Island or if there will be non-stop mainland flights.


Every whisper I'm hearing is consistent. Lots of "round robin" type flights to maximize loads and also offer interisland.

Example: OAK-HNL(crew swap)-KOA-SMF as one option, then SMF-KOA(crew swap)-HNL-OGG-HNL-KOA-HNL-OGG(crew swap)-SMF... and so on. That's probably the only way to make Hilo work.

So its not going to be full-on inter-island like Mokulele and Island Air offered, but more slow, gradual growth. I don't see WN offering 18 HNL/OGGs, but maybe 5. That's all they really need...


I agree 100%, It is interesting that most carriers for the most part, no longer consider the round robin as a scheduling tool, while I can see exactly how WN can maximize it to their benefit in the Hawaiian market.

WN is making an all over grab for Hawaii based clients by offering the Inter Island routes to compliment their over water flights the mainland. AS & HA are going to have some strong competition out of California & I'll be interested to see how much lower fares can really go. SY has the PDX-HNL market selling at $275 r/t this winter.

It'll be a great year to go & visit the islands for airfare bargain hunters, even after renting a house for a few weeks & a car.
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TW870
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:17 am

I bet Hawaiian doesn't know the answer to this question because there is no solution at today's cost structure.

The 717 is the last in the generation of jets that were designed for the old "local service" airlines in the U.S. The DC-9 family directly replaced DC-3s and Convairs. Before the hub and spoke system, those aircraft - both big pistons and their jet replacements - did milk runs all day. 10-15 leg days were standard for aircraft. Short turns or flag stops meant that at some airports, airplanes were on the ground for 10 minutes or less - because just a person or two would board and deplane. The hub and spoke system changed all of this because it incentivized longer legs to further away hubs and longer turns to accommodate hub banks. Plus, given that the energy crisis hit in 1973, all the new jets have been optimized for fuel efficiency and hub and spoke operations. Thus, once the 717s cycle out, nothing exists for Hawaiian. My guess is that they will just have to eat it with longer turn times and much more expensive overhauls.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:31 am

AWACSooner wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:

Can that certain company south of the equator's aircraft also double as a TransPac aircraft like the A220?

If so, very good.

Can easily make it west coast to Hawaii
https://www.embraercommercialaviation.c ... rcial-jet/


Except that you forget the added fuel for overwater ops puts LAX-HNL right at the limit for the E195-E2. Making it far less attractive than the A220 series.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:45 am

ScottB wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Hawaii is not the only place in the world where short hop planes are needed. To say otherwise is strange and not useful.


But it's relatively unique with respect to the operational requirements: extremely short hops with quick turns in between, and inadequate time at cruise or on the ground for the engines to cool, combined with year-round warm ambient temperatures. Plus the geographic isolation makes tags on to longer segments largely impractical.

If there were a huge market for aircraft in the niche HA needs for interisland operations, we'd have seen a lot more sales for the 717.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Hawai'i depends upon quick turn-arounds and multiple short hops per day. Most jet engines are designed for longer distances and a bit more down time. Eventually the 717's are going to reach the end of the usefulness and a replacement will be needed. Somehow, this will have to be dealt with by an engine manufacturer.


Why do you think an engine manufacturer will be forced to come up with a solution if the market just isn't large enough to make a business case for the product? HA has under two dozen 717s; replacing that fleet won't pay the expense of a multi-billion-dollar engine program.


If boeing had not pushed airlines to their 737-600 at a detriment to 717 sales, after they merged with MDC, we would still have the 717. They wanted to sell their less efficient 737-600 into the 100 seat market and it failed. result no functional 100 seat range place from Boeing.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:49 am

TW870 wrote:
I bet Hawaiian doesn't know the answer to this question because there is no solution at today's cost structure.


There is an answer: keep flying 717s, cycling them out when they approach the cycle limit, and pay a bit more for maintenance. This ought to work for a long time, probably another 25 years.

The inter-island business is a unique one and it will be very difficult for anyone to undercut Hawaiian on it and still be profitable, even if fares go up a bit.

The current Hawaiian 717 fleet leaders are around 65,000 cycles. The 717 limit of validity is 110,000 cycles. At 4000 cycles per year, the fleet leaders could potentially fly for about a decade more. After that, one way or another, Hawaiian will buy Delta aircraft, because they will be worth more to Hawaiian than Delta. Either Delta will already have retired them and replaced them with A220s or Hawaiian will make Delta an offer it can't refuse. A decade from now, the Delta fleet will probably have between 45,000 and 60,000 cycles. That represents years of remaining life even at Hawaiian cycle rates. And there are enough of them that Hawaiian could use them, replacing higher-cycle aircraft with lower-cycle ones as needed, for quite some time.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:53 am

Password wrote:
workhorse wrote:
High-speed electric-powered ferries capable to transport (electric) cars?

Board in Kahului in the evening with your car, have a good night's sleep in a comfortable berth, wake up in Honolulu in the morning and drive YOUR car directly off the ferry to wherever you need on Oahu.

...I can dream, can I?


You may not dream (even though what you are suggesting is a fantastic idea), locals are opposed to any ferry idea due to the adverse impact on the reefs, potential to collide with whales, and the increase in traffic it would cause (Honolulu has some of the worst traffic in the US, Maui is starting to see some traffic as well)

You can google the superferry experiment, it only took 3 hours and costed 30$ iirc, but I doubt well see anything like it soon.

Whats the chances of Hawaiian working with an engine developer to make some sort of custom engine?


Also the ferries are feared to increase animal species not native to one island getting to the other more easily via ferries. thats one of the reasons along with those above that killed off the Superferry.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:17 am

seven3seven wrote:
I scratch my head at all these people who seem to know the 737 can't do inter-island. I fly the damn thing and there's nothing in our manuals other than an engine start temp. limitation. That was a slight issue on the 300 but we did quick turns all day long just by motoring the engine longer to bring the temp down before introducing fuel. The NG engine is much much better at cooling to meet the engine start temp limitation and will not be an issue.

Inter island on the 737 for Southwest will not be a problem at all. Enjoy the cheaper fares locals.

Prove me wrong


Easily proven wrong. Aloha flew the 737-700/800 NOT the 737-300 series. So seems they knew more about the NG's engines in the Hawaiian climate. Most of Hawaiians flight are not in the air as long as Southwest planes. The HA planes reach maybe 25000-26000 foot max on a 10-12 min flight. How short is WN's shortest high volume quick turn flight?

DAL-HOU: 239sm 28 min.
DAL-AUS: 189sm, 22 min.
Southwest continues most flights to other airports, not return to same airport over and over. Result engines cool better & less wear.

HNL-LIH: 102sm, 12 min.
HNL-OGG: 100sm, 12 min.
HNL-KOA: 163sm, 19 min.
HNL-ITO: 216sm, 25 min.
Each with up to 20 flight per day around the islands that probably would fit inside texas border.
 
rbavfan
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:26 am

HermansCVR580 wrote:
What are the average total cycles on the Hawaiian 717's? Is there a possibility of Boeing doing like Northwest did in the early 90's with their DC-9's to extend the life on them say 5-10 years down the road from now? Or is this a different animal because of the salt air and corrosion so it would make it a mute point to extend the life cycle of the air frame.


Has already been planned & started before this thread was.
 
strfyr51
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Re: The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:58 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
ScottB wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Somehow, an engine that can handle the multiple short hops will have to be developed, and it will have to work on a plane big enough to hold some cargo. What I wanted to discuss was the possibilities of anyone coming up with something new that could take on these tasks.


Well, no, an engine appropriate to multiple short hops isn't necessarily required. In the absence of a like-for-like replacement of the 717, HA would likely just make do with a different fleet type and adjust their operations to compensate. That might not be ideal, and prices for interisland travel might rise, but in the end, would there be much choice otherwise? With relatively limited competition in the wake of the collapse of AQ, HA could certainly adjust and help manage the higher costs by reducing frequency and upgauging to A320/A321 for interisland flying.

Unless there's another large potential customer with similar operational requirements, it makes little sense today for an engine maker to target an engine program to a total global market of around 50 units.


Actually, in Hawai'i, it is. There are no 737's plying the skies anymore there inter-island, other than Aloha Cargo, because only the -200 model engines could cool down fast enough. The -300 was tried, and there were operational issues galore, and any further 737 is going to have the same issue.

Hawai'i depends upon quick turn-arounds and multiple short hops per day. Most jet engines are designed for longer distances and a bit more down time. Eventually the 717's are going to reach the end of the usefulness and a replacement will be needed. Somehow, this will have to be dealt with by an engine manufacturer.

Since the BR715 was designed to replace the JT8D medium bypass engine. It makes perfect sense that it would be a good interisland engine. only the CFM56-3 series did short hops like that in comparison. the Later CFM's were designed for Transcon and not short hops like in Hawaii.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:31 am

What about all of the 737-100s and 737-200s parked in the desert? Can't Hawaiian purchase the ones with the lowest cycles and use them for interisland flying?
 
ha763
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:47 am

barney captain wrote:
seven3seven wrote:
I scratch my head at all these people who seem to know the 737 can't do inter-island. I fly the damn thing and there's nothing in our manuals other than an engine start temp. limitation. That was a slight issue on the 300 but we did quick turns all day long just by motoring the engine longer to bring the temp down before introducing fuel. The NG engine is much much better at cooling to meet the engine start temp limitation and will not be an issue.

Inter island on the 737 for Southwest will not be a problem at all. Enjoy the cheaper fares locals.

Prove me wrong


As we've recently learned - there's plenty of stuff that isn't in our manuals. Ahem.

This isn't some made-up scenario - it was experienced first-hand by Aloha. And it was the NG's they had issues with. It wasn't that the NG's couldn't do it, it was simply that it increased wear on the CFM's and proved to be problematic and costly. Now, will SWA's NG's experience this? Dunno. Also, the larger question is will the MAX's? They will eventually be replacing the NG's on the ETOPS flights. And it's been clearly shown - those LEAP engines require tremendous TLC. With the Bowed Shaft Motoring, it can take over 5 full minutes just to get both started. Not to mention increased mandatory warm-up and cool-down times over the NG's (that is definitely in our manual btw - not just the start temp limit).


rbavfan wrote:
Easily proven wrong. Aloha flew the 737-700/800 NOT the 737-300 series. So seems they knew more about the NG's engines in the Hawaiian climate. Most of Hawaiians flight are not in the air as long as Southwest planes. The HA planes reach maybe 25000-26000 foot max on a 10-12 min flight. How short is WN's shortest high volume quick turn flight?


I have personally seen the operation of Aloha's 737-700 on interisland lines during my time working at Aloha. Even with increased turn times, the lines always were delayed. On each return to HNL, the mechanics opened up the cowlings to check the engines.

Aloha did operate the 737-300 and 737-400 for a short time. They ordered 2 -400s from Boeing and leased -300QCs. The wear issues with the CFMs were present back then and was one of the reasons they got rid of them.

 
32andBelow
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:59 am

RWA380 wrote:
usxguy wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
I am unsure if this has been mentioned, ITO is now on the list of cities WN plans to serve in Hawaii, not sure if it's only Inter-Island or if there will be non-stop mainland flights.


Every whisper I'm hearing is consistent. Lots of "round robin" type flights to maximize loads and also offer interisland.

Example: OAK-HNL(crew swap)-KOA-SMF as one option, then SMF-KOA(crew swap)-HNL-OGG-HNL-KOA-HNL-OGG(crew swap)-SMF... and so on. That's probably the only way to make Hilo work.

So its not going to be full-on inter-island like Mokulele and Island Air offered, but more slow, gradual growth. I don't see WN offering 18 HNL/OGGs, but maybe 5. That's all they really need...


I agree 100%, It is interesting that most carriers for the most part, no longer consider the round robin as a scheduling tool, while I can see exactly how WN can maximize it to their benefit in the Hawaiian market.

WN is making an all over grab for Hawaii based clients by offering the Inter Island routes to compliment their over water flights the mainland. AS & HA are going to have some strong competition out of California & I'll be interested to see how much lower fares can really go. SY has the PDX-HNL market selling at $275 r/t this winter.

It'll be a great year to go & visit the islands for airfare bargain hunters, even after renting a house for a few weeks & a car.

A limited code share between AS and HA would work well. There is a lot of traffic between AK and HI. Put HA code on the directs to and from ANC. Put AS code on connecting inner island from SEA/PDX/etc. Then decide if there are any other routes you would like to code share.
 
strfyr51
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:03 am

blacksoviet wrote:
What about all of the 737-100s and 737-200s parked in the desert? Can't Hawaiian purchase the ones with the lowest cycles and use them for interisland flying?

many of those airplanes could be resurrected However, Many of them are at or over 100K landings and to overhaul them for reliability would cost more than they're worth. I think the E170,E175 and E190 might be good candidates along with the largest Canidair airplane models. Especially if there are no models designed for short hops Hi cycles and multiple starts on a short turn.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:27 pm

With regards to the round-robin flights, this reminds me of USAir's strategy after PSA was purchased: LAX-SFO, a route flown 12+ times per day became the tag-on to many cross-country flights, which were regularly delayed. California flyers abandoned USAir en masse and Southwest moved into the Golden State, realizing that the normal rules of airline operation didn't work on multiple short-hop routes such as Northern CA/Southern CA.

It is with a great deal of trepidation that I could possibly believe the upcoming "round-robin" flights will pick up the slack. I just can't think this is going to be the case, because any delay or cancellation on the mainland would have a compounded result to Hawai'i will compound. Only an airplane can handle the amount of immediate needs between the islands, and any decision to remove the round-robin flights would mean a complete loss of service. I just don't see this as a viable long-term solution.
 
LightChop2Chop
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:56 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The inter-island business is a unique one and it will be very difficult for anyone to undercut Hawaiian on it and still be profitable, even if fares go up a bit.


IIRC one of WN top execs is ex-HA, so they must have some insight. Alas, HA in entrenched and will fight tooth and nail to keep it that way.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:05 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
What about all of the 737-100s and 737-200s parked in the desert? Can't Hawaiian purchase the ones with the lowest cycles and use them for interisland flying?

Why not suggest Caravelles, Comets, and Tu-104s while you’re at it?

There are no 737-100s in the desert; only 30 were built, and unfortunately only one has survived intact:



V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
SeaDoo
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:55 pm

32andBelow wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
usxguy wrote:

Every whisper I'm hearing is consistent. Lots of "round robin" type flights to maximize loads and also offer interisland.

Example: OAK-HNL(crew swap)-KOA-SMF as one option, then SMF-KOA(crew swap)-HNL-OGG-HNL-KOA-HNL-OGG(crew swap)-SMF... and so on. That's probably the only way to make Hilo work.

So its not going to be full-on inter-island like Mokulele and Island Air offered, but more slow, gradual growth. I don't see WN offering 18 HNL/OGGs, but maybe 5. That's all they really need...


I agree 100%, It is interesting that most carriers for the most part, no longer consider the round robin as a scheduling tool, while I can see exactly how WN can maximize it to their benefit in the Hawaiian market.

WN is making an all over grab for Hawaii based clients by offering the Inter Island routes to compliment their over water flights the mainland. AS & HA are going to have some strong competition out of California & I'll be interested to see how much lower fares can really go. SY has the PDX-HNL market selling at $275 r/t this winter.

It'll be a great year to go & visit the islands for airfare bargain hunters, even after renting a house for a few weeks & a car.

A limited code share between AS and HA would work well. There is a lot of traffic between AK and HI. Put HA code on the directs to and from ANC. Put AS code on connecting inner island from SEA/PDX/etc. Then decide if there are any other routes you would like to code share.


I don't see AS and HA codesharing. I would assume Korean, JAL and Qantas cover any Pacific destination offered by HA. AS flies ANC to HNL year round and seasonally flies to KOA and OGG. When AS didn't fly to Hawaii, they were FF partners with HA, but it was hard to redeem AS miles on HA.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:26 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
What about all of the 737-100s and 737-200s parked in the desert? Can't Hawaiian purchase the ones with the lowest cycles and use them for interisland flying?

Why not suggest Caravelles, Comets, and Tu-104s while you’re at it?

There are no 737-100s in the desert; only 30 were built, and unfortunately only one has survived intact:



V/F

Does the Nasa 737-130 have additional fuel tanks installed? Why did Lufthansa insist on the 731 while every other airline wanted the 732?
 
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seabosdca
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:00 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
There are no 737-100s in the desert; only 30 were built, and unfortunately only one has survived intact:


To add to that, the 737-100s and the first 200 or so 737-200s have a structure that is significantly weaker from a fatigue perspective and have a LOV of only about 30,000 cycles. Not exactly useful for interisland work.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:20 am

Just heard from WN today past FAA ETOPS table top and manual procedures. Now clear to do Proving flights and ticket sales in a few days?
Anyone else hear this news.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
bob75013
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:41 am

rbavfan wrote:
seven3seven wrote:
I scratch my head at all these people who seem to know the 737 can't do inter-island. I fly the damn thing and there's nothing in our manuals other than an engine start temp. limitation. That was a slight issue on the 300 but we did quick turns all day long just by motoring the engine longer to bring the temp down before introducing fuel. The NG engine is much much better at cooling to meet the engine start temp limitation and will not be an issue.

Inter island on the 737 for Southwest will not be a problem at all. Enjoy the cheaper fares locals.

Prove me wrong


Easily proven wrong. Aloha flew the 737-700/800 NOT the 737-300 series. So seems they knew more about the NG's engines in the Hawaiian climate. Most of Hawaiians flight are not in the air as long as Southwest planes. The HA planes reach maybe 25000-26000 foot max on a 10-12 min flight. How short is WN's shortest high volume quick turn flight?

DAL-HOU: 239sm 28 min.
DAL-AUS: 189sm, 22 min.
Southwest continues most flights to other airports, not return to same airport over and over. Result engines cool better & less wear.

HNL-LIH: 102sm, 12 min.
HNL-OGG: 100sm, 12 min.
HNL-KOA: 163sm, 19 min.
HNL-ITO: 216sm, 25 min.
Each with up to 20 flight per day around the islands that probably would fit inside texas border.


You forgot HOU-AUS - 148 miles
also HOU-SAT - 191 miles
also HOU-CRP 187 miles -
also DAL OKC 181 miles
 
WPvsMW
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:24 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Just heard from WN today past FAA ETOPS table top and manual procedures. Now clear to do Proving flights and ticket sales in a few days?
Anyone else hear this news.
Flyguy

Nothing public in HNL, and no scuttlebutt around the airport ... yet. There was an apparent proving flight discussed on a.net. The only remaining step is the ETOPS certificate. The big mystery is on-board food without chillers, ovens, or trolleys. The novelty will be ramp boarding at WN's gates at HNL ... a touch of KOA ... but forward and aft ramps. A real novelty would be handing each pax a musette when queued for the ramp, Tour de France style.
https://beatofhawaii.com/southwest-hawa ... ne-update/

The excitement will be rain at HNL. HNL gets alot more rain than KOA. Soggy pax begin flights to the West Coast...
 
Bazooka
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:09 am

Give me a break! I fly the 737-300 inter-island and there are absolutely NO problems with the engines not getting a "cool down time".
 
strfyr51
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:30 am

TW870 wrote:
I bet Hawaiian doesn't know the answer to this question because there is no solution at today's cost structure.

The 717 is the last in the generation of jets that were designed for the old "local service" airlines in the U.S. The DC-9 family directly replaced DC-3s and Convairs. Before the hub and spoke system, those aircraft - both big pistons and their jet replacements - did milk runs all day. 10-15 leg days were standard for aircraft. Short turns or flag stops meant that at some airports, airplanes were on the ground for 10 minutes or less - because just a person or two would board and deplane. The hub and spoke system changed all of this because it incentivized longer legs to further away hubs and longer turns to accommodate hub banks. Plus, given that the energy crisis hit in 1973, all the new jets have been optimized for fuel efficiency and hub and spoke operations. Thus, once the 717s cycle out, nothing exists for Hawaiian. My guess is that they will just have to eat it with longer turn times and much more expensive overhauls.

I would tend to agree with you, but the DC9 derived airframe has no cycle limit.. It only matters how much an airline can afford to replace cycle limited parts like Landing gear, Doors, Engines Horizontal Stabilizer Jackscrews, Flapsm etc. The airframe itself? Completely overbuilt as MDC didn't do a lot of static testing.
 
AntonioMartin
Posts: 574
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:27 am

Slightly off topic but in Puerto Rico, another hot tropical island, Vieques Air Link's Islanders and Trislanders have been flying since forever..since I was little indeed. Perhaps some smaller but super long lasting aircrafts of the ilk can fill the gaps?
 
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seabosdca
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:10 am

strfyr51 wrote:
I would tend to agree with you, but the DC9 derived airframe has no cycle limit.. It only matters how much an airline can afford to replace cycle limited parts like Landing gear, Doors, Engines Horizontal Stabilizer Jackscrews, Flapsm etc. The airframe itself? Completely overbuilt as MDC didn't do a lot of static testing.


They most certainly do have cycle limits, just very high ones -- 110,000 for all of them except the MD-80, which has a staggering 150,000 cycle limit (that no frame has come remotely near, to my knowledge).

Those limits are high enough not to be relevant for most operators, but for an interisland operator putting on 12 cycles a day they can be an issue.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:44 am

Oh my goodness!
I've just speed-read through this thread and several things jumped out at me.
1) The prejudice against ATR72/Q400 or indeed any turboprop, made me want to scream-vomit

2) The short hops mean inter-island a/c barely reach higher altitudes for (jet) engine cooling purposes, but did anybody mention they also fail to reach the zone where (jet) engines are most efficient. If that doesn't suggest turboprop as a solution, I give up.

3) I loved the idea that a fleet of 20 717s was "just right", whereas 30 replacement Q400s was a "massive fleet" :?

4) If you think I am prop-crazy, note that I also liked the concept of using smaller models within the 737 family in order to benefit from less stressed engines. :checkmark:

5) Would the above idea also work with the current (larger) model 737 family, but employ a less dense ("premium") seating arrangement and reduced cargo capacity, hence lower take-off weight, again allowing the engines to operate at lower thrust settings throughout the range. (Yeah, I know, like that's ever going to happen...)

6) If the 717 is the optimum solution by virtue of the RR BR715 engine, what other a/c use this engine? The Rekkof/Fokker F100 was short-listed for it at some point, but that program still needs a launch customer. :o
Or, since Bombardier already use it in various forms (incl the latest RR Pearl version) on the Global Express family, it can't be that much of a leap to adopt it on the (much maligned) CRJ-1000. :stirthepot:
I suspect someone will flag up a shortfall in freight capacity, to which I would add a dedicated ATR-72 freighter to the fleet as a solution; it's not like the cargo will complain because it's a stinky old turboprop.

7) I love a nice ride on a boat, watching the whales and all that palaver, but I accept 3hr ferries across wild ocean is probably the best solution for all this cargo that currently flies around at 500mph when in reality it is rarely that urgent (medical supplies being a possible exception).

8) And finally.....Engine cooling; what happens when any a/c flies through a rain shower? I think I know the answer. So how about a (gentle) water spray directly into the engines whilst they are idling on the ground. If those engines are not certified to cope with this "sudden" temperature fluctuation, I don't want to be flying in one on a wet day....
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:26 pm

I know I'll be flamed for this, but the Mitsubishi MRJ is designed with significantly less range than the A220 and E2, so in theory it may be more efficient for short routes like interisland. HA doesnt need the fleet to be able to fly anywhere else so why not?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Topic Author
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:26 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Oh my goodness!
I've just speed-read through this thread and several things jumped out at me.


Actually, you did quite an exceptional job summarizing many aspects of this thread! Let me add to this any additional information I have:

1) The prejudice against ATR72/Q400 or indeed any turboprop, made me want to scream-vomit


Not replying to your comment, but remember that both of these two models represent smaller cargo capacities. There are going to be contracts to carry a specific amount of items like newspapers and fresh bread to the islands in the morning from O'ahu, and right now Hawaiian practically gives seats away on those flights (always cheapest to leave O'ahu at 5:00 AM!)

2) The short hops mean inter-island a/c barely reach higher altitudes for (jet) engine cooling purposes, but did anybody mention they also fail to reach the zone where (jet) engines are most efficient. If that doesn't suggest turboprop as a solution, I give up.


A logical point. Not being an engine designer or mechanic, I can't say anything. Fleet planners at Hawaiian will have to make the final decision.

3) I loved the idea that a fleet of 20 717s was "just right", whereas 30 replacement Q400s was a "massive fleet" :?


The opinions of others, not mine. No comment.

4) If you think I am prop-crazy, note that I also liked the concept of using smaller models within the 737 family in order to benefit from less stressed engines. :checkmark:

5) Would the above idea also work with the current (larger) model 737 family, but employ a less dense ("premium") seating arrangement and reduced cargo capacity, hence lower take-off weight, again allowing the engines to operate at lower thrust settings throughout the range. (Yeah, I know, like that's ever going to happen...)


I don't know if anything other than brand-new 737's could ever serve in Hawai'i, as we learned from Aloha 243. As I read in MacArthur Job's book "Air Disasters" series, Boeing's airplanes are harder to patch the cracks on, whereas Douglas & MD products were designed to be patched simpler, meaning the plane would be more durable and be in the shop less.

6) If the 717 is the optimum solution by virtue of the RR BR715 engine, what other a/c use this engine? The Rekkof/Fokker F100 was short-listed for it at some point, but that program still needs a launch customer. :o

Or, since Bombardier already use it in various forms (incl the latest RR Pearl version) on the Global Express family, it can't be that much of a leap to adopt it on the (much maligned) CRJ-1000. :stirthepot:
I suspect someone will flag up a shortfall in freight capacity, to which I would add a dedicated ATR-72 freighter to the fleet as a solution; it's not like the cargo will complain because it's a stinky old turboprop.


Others in the know will have to make that decision, but to the best of my knowledge, correct. And finding that right balance between engine longevity and passenger capacity is proving to be tough - but what you state is indeed one of the many possibilities I would imagine fleet planners at Hawaiian are considering right now.

7) I love a nice ride on a boat, watching the whales and all that palaver, but I accept 3hr ferries across wild ocean is probably the best solution for all this cargo that currently flies around at 500mph when in reality it is rarely that urgent (medical supplies being a possible exception).


It would be common knowledge to say that cargo capacity intra-island by flying is a finite amount, therefore, shipping would take the lion's share. The 5:00 AM departures from HNL to the islands are filled with cargo, and your example of urgent medical needs is also a perfect example.

8) And finally.....Engine cooling; what happens when any a/c flies through a rain shower? I think I know the answer. So how about a (gentle) water spray directly into the engines whilst they are idling on the ground. If those engines are not certified to cope with this "sudden" temperature fluctuation, I don't want to be flying in one on a wet day....


Can't say anything with respect to your idea, but it's a logical point.

Thanks for the reply!!
 
bennett123
Posts: 9131
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:26 pm

There are few B717 operators. Apart from Delta (91), there is Cobham (20) Hawaiian (20) and Volotea (16 plus 1 stored).

The Turkmenistan fleet are now retired. Kemble has 4 stored, (and being stripped). Not sure about the other 3.

What is the problem with the Q400.
 
T prop
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Re: The Future Of Hawaiian Inter-Island Travel

Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:19 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I suspect someone will flag up a shortfall in freight capacity, to which I would add a dedicated ATR-72 freighter to the fleet as a solution; it's not like the cargo will complain because it's a stinky old turboprop.


HA already operates ATR 72 freighters.

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