skipness1E
Topic Author
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Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:59 pm

Why have a seperate subsidiary for this venture? Poland is in the EU so anyone know why the need to put the aircraft on the Polish register?
What can they do that EI- Ryanair can’t?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:22 am

Take Poles for a week on the beach in Turkey or Egypt ?
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:30 am

An EU-based carrier can exercise the traffic rights available (for flights to anywhere outside the EU's common aviation area) in another EU state only if they have some kind of subsidiary based in that other EU state. In this case, Ryanair (based in the R of I) can access rights and utilise capacity available under Poland's ASA with non-EU countries IF it has a Polish subsidiary. Hence Ryanair Sun, which presumably is incorporated in Poland. You'd find that LO has a similar arrangement in place to be able to operate from BUD to the USA.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:34 am

I thought it was so they could put staff on cheaper polish contracts?
 
konkret
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:36 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
An EU-based carrier can exercise the traffic rights available (for flights to anywhere outside the EU's common aviation area) in another EU state only if they have some kind of subsidiary based in that other EU state. In this case, Ryanair (based in the R of I) can access rights and utilise capacity available under Poland's ASA with non-EU countries IF it has a Polish subsidiary. Hence Ryanair Sun, which presumably is incorporated in Poland. You'd find that LO has a similar arrangement in place to be able to operate from BUD to the USA.


there is no LO subsidiary in Hungary at the moment as it is not needed because LO (and any other US or EU airline) can operate BUD-USA under EU-USA open skies.
 
skipness1E
Topic Author
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:38 am

Wow great answers, much appreciated, thanks!!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:49 am

I'm actually curious as to whether there are lower costs associated with FR (RYS) as opposed to FR (RYR). By next year, 16 aircraft will be on the FR (RYS) AOC, all being transferred from the FR (RYR) AOC.
 
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albertocsc
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:00 am

Actually, now it can be said that there are three AOCs and one more coming soon.
- Ryanair (FR/RYR).
- Ryanair Sun (RR/RYS) was originally aimed at charter flights from Poland (competing with Enter Air, Small Planet,...), but will take over all Ryanair Polish operations from next year. What I heard is that salary is ok, but everyone working for them will be "self-employed".
- Laudamotion (OE/LDM) works as a testbed for Ryanair Airbus operations, and adds Austrian and German bases to the list (ZRH was also planned but dropped).
- Finally, Ryanair UK is on its way and will operate domestic British routes.
 
robbo2k
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:39 am

Polish crews have previously had employment contracts with Ryanair Irleand, from January 1, 2019 will be on the B2B contract. There are currently 4 planes at Ryanair Sun and they operate normal timetable - non charter flight cruises. 3 have a base in WMI (SP-RSA, SP-RSO, SP-RSP and one in POZ SP-RSN)
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:44 am

albertocsc wrote:
Actually, now it can be said that there are three AOCs and one more coming soon.
- Ryanair (FR/RYR).
- Ryanair Sun (RR/RYS) was originally aimed at charter flights from Poland (competing with Enter Air, Small Planet,...), but will take over all Ryanair Polish operations from next year. What I heard is that salary is ok, but everyone working for them will be "self-employed".
- Laudamotion (OE/LDM) works as a testbed for Ryanair Airbus operations, and adds Austrian and German bases to the list (ZRH was also planned but dropped).
- Finally, Ryanair UK is on its way and will operate domestic British routes.


The self-employed contract they offered to the cabin crew is a disgrace, which is why they are recruiting massively all accross Europe, trying to fill out all positions needed for the complete transfer of Ryanair operations in Poland, to Ryanair Sun.
Ryanair had had leased Airbus aircraft from various sources (Eirjet, Monarch, Livingston, Small Planet, SmartLynx), for periods of time as long as 6 months. So it is not as if Ryanair has no experience with Airbus.
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:47 am

albertocsc wrote:
Actually, now it can be said that there are three AOCs and one more coming soon.
- Ryanair (FR/RYR).
- Ryanair Sun (RR/RYS) was originally aimed at charter flights from Poland (competing with Enter Air, Small Planet,...), but will take over all Ryanair Polish operations from next year. What I heard is that salary is ok, but everyone working for them will be "self-employed".
- Laudamotion (OE/LDM) works as a testbed for Ryanair Airbus operations, and adds Austrian and German bases to the list (ZRH was also planned but dropped).
- Finally, Ryanair UK is on its way and will operate domestic British routes.


Sounds like Norwegian. Perhaps we'll also see a Ryanair Guatemala.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
An EU-based carrier can exercise the traffic rights available (for flights to anywhere outside the EU's common aviation area) in another EU state only if they have some kind of subsidiary based in that other EU state. In this case, Ryanair (based in the R of I) can access rights and utilise capacity available under Poland's ASA with non-EU countries IF it has a Polish subsidiary. Hence Ryanair Sun, which presumably is incorporated in Poland. You'd find that LO has a similar arrangement in place to be able to operate from BUD to the USA.


Generally, the EU negotiates traffic rights on behalf of all nations, so Poland doesn't get any that Ireland doesn't get either. The Court of Justice deemed it discriminatory and in breach of EU law back in 2002. It looks like there may still be a few exceptions, but it does not look like Ryanair Sun is going to any of these places anyway.

This is about getting access to Polish workers [lack of] rights and salaries, nothing more. Wizz Air, Smartwings and Blue Air have been gaining traction against Ryanair with very low wages, and this is probably an attempt to counter that.
 
andymartin
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 am

Its typical MOL using the cheapest labour possible on dodgy labour laws.
 
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CARST
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am

Embajador3 wrote:
Ryanair had had leased Airbus aircraft from various sources (Eirjet, Monarch, Livingston, Small Planet, SmartLynx), for periods of time as long as 6 months. So it is not as if Ryanair has no experience with Airbus.


These were all wetleases. So they don't have ANY experience with operating Airbus aircraft so far.

LaudaMotion is something completely new. A daughter company, which will report to Rynair all facts about operating the A32X fleet. Not that they need LaudaMotion to get this knowledge, they could just hire a fleet manager of some other company which flies Airbus aircraft, but still this is something completely new versus hiring aircraft as a full-on wet lease.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:10 pm

CARST wrote:
LaudaMotion is something completely new. A daughter company, which will report to Rynair all facts about operating the A32X fleet. Not that they need LaudaMotion to get this knowledge, they could just hire a fleet manager of some other company which flies Airbus aircraft, but still this is something completely new versus hiring aircraft as a full-on wet lease.


There is probably more to it than just getting operational experience with A320s, although that is also part of it. They also got themselves into a really bad position in Germany lately, with employment contracts being scrutinized, cancelled flights, strikes and the debacle in Frankfurt with arrivals after the night curfew. It may also help relieve the recruitment issues that Ryanair Ireland has had recently, by presenting a nicer picture in the form of Laudamotion.
With Laudamotion they can sell the same tickets, but operated by an airline that hasn't completely trashed it's reputation yet. And if the Germany Ryanair pilots decide to strike, you know who gets sent in to replace them...
 
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Polot
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
CARST wrote:
LaudaMotion is something completely new. A daughter company, which will report to Rynair all facts about operating the A32X fleet. Not that they need LaudaMotion to get this knowledge, they could just hire a fleet manager of some other company which flies Airbus aircraft, but still this is something completely new versus hiring aircraft as a full-on wet lease.


There is probably more to it than just getting operational experience with A320s, although that is also part of it. They also got themselves into a really bad position in Germany lately, with employment contracts being scrutinized, cancelled flights, strikes and the debacle in Frankfurt with arrivals after the night curfew. It may also help relieve the recruitment issues that Ryanair Ireland has had recently, by presenting a nicer picture in the form of Laudamotion.
With Laudamotion they can sell the same tickets, but operated by an airline that hasn't completely trashed it's reputation yet. And if the Germany Ryanair pilots decide to strike, you know who gets sent in to replace them...

Yes, the A320 experience is a nice bonus but not really the point of Laudamotion. If Niki was a 737 operator Laudamotion would have been as well and Ryanair probably would have still invested in them (hard to say exactly though, as that scenario means Ryanair would have been more likely to get pieces of Air Berlin than Easyjet). Laudamotion is about expanding Ryanair’s footprint in Germany/Austria after Air Berlin’s collapse.
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Ryanair Sun - what’s the point?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:58 pm

CARST wrote:
Embajador3 wrote:
Ryanair had had leased Airbus aircraft from various sources (Eirjet, Monarch, Livingston, Small Planet, SmartLynx), for periods of time as long as 6 months. So it is not as if Ryanair has no experience with Airbus.


These were all wetleases. So they don't have ANY experience with operating Airbus aircraft so far.

LaudaMotion is something completely new. A daughter company, which will report to Rynair all facts about operating the A32X fleet. Not that they need LaudaMotion to get this knowledge, they could just hire a fleet manager of some other company which flies Airbus aircraft, but still this is something completely new versus hiring aircraft as a full-on wet lease.


The Livingston A320s leased had 2 FR cabin crew onboard to assist the operating crew with FR's onboard flow of service and the 6 month lease of SmartLynx's A320s had FR cabin crew operating them, along side 6Y's pilots. They have information about operating A320s alright.
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