jad510
Topic Author
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Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:10 am

This could be a dumb question, but why did JetBlue never start JFK/LGA-DCA? With a moderate presence at DCA and with B6 having flights to all their other focus cities, why not JFK? Could we see it now that JFK-IAD is ending? What about LGA? They started LGA-BOS with a shuttle of sort business.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2479
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:24 am

Waste of slots?
Trashed fares and yields having three carriers on the route?
Better fleet usage?

Take your pick.
 
doulasc
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 am

I was wondering when JetBlue drops service to IAD will DCA-JFK be added?
 
IPFreely
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:56 am

AWACSooner wrote:
Waste of slots?
Trashed fares and yields having three carriers on the route?
Better fleet usage?

Take your pick.


You forgot about Acela Express.
 
FlyBTV
Posts: 113
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:44 am

IPFreely wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Waste of slots?
Trashed fares and yields having three carriers on the route?
Better fleet usage?

Take your pick.


You forgot about Acela Express.


Air-Rail share is 75% rail per the below article:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... ts/383158/

The BOS-NYC share is much more evenly split, explaining B6’s presence in that market.

The only real value DCA-JFK flights would have would be to generate connecting traffic from DC, and that’s not going to generate the type of yields required to justify using a limited DCA slot. DCA-LGA would be exclusively point to point traffic with no connections, so there’s little value there for B6. I’d love to see DCA-JFK flights to allow me to connect elsewhere on B6’s network from DCA, but it will never happen (BOS is a little out of the way and I can’t fly to some cities from there). BWI is even less competive against the train and they’re pulling out of IAD.
 
tphuang
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:38 am

Lack of LGA slots. JFK-DCA doesn't make sense since it'd be mostly connection and they don't like that. In theory, they have the best terminal at LGA to run the shuttle.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:56 am

BUF SYR ROC BTV PWM BOS ORH

Many flights loaded with connectors
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:35 pm

tphuang wrote:
Lack of LGA slots. JFK-DCA doesn't make sense since it'd be mostly connection and they don't like that. In theory, they have the best terminal at LGA to run the shuttle.



It’s definitely a slot issue. Heck even a gate issue in DCA. They always say they want more slots but I don’t see it happening anytime soon. From what I understand with IAD is the JFK flights were mainly connecting to the international partners and were not very profitable if at all. The 3 BOS flights were holding the station together but also with all the Dca Bos flights the costs at IAD just didn’t work.

I will tell you flying into the MAT is a much much much better experience from the pilot side. Much easier and relaxed over there. I hope we stay.
 
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STT757
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:37 pm

You can tqke one of the Chinatown buses for $10.00.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CairnterriAIR
Posts: 674
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:13 pm

Slots, competition from other carriers, trains running more frequently without the hassle of TSA, traffic, ATC delays.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 346
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:33 pm

Depending on where you are coming from, ie. NJ vs NYC, you are more likely to spend more time commuting to the airport, going through checkin, security, and waiting for take off... then just driving down to DC. From NJ 2.5 to 3 hours, no need to pay for parking, etc.

Furthermore, the train runs very reliably and fairly reasonable in terms of cost, and FAR more comfortable. No TSA, no baggage fees and you go downtown to downtown.

NYC to Boston takes longer and the rail service is not fully upgraded to high speed there, so air does make a bit more sense... but again, depending on where in the area you are coming from and going and what the weather is.

Beyond that, there are tons of cheap buses as well... again, no bag fees, no TSA, no need to show up an hour early.

NYC/DC only makes sense if you are connecting.
 
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kgaiflyer
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 pm

CairnterriAIR wrote:
Slots, competition from other carriers, trains running more frequently without the hassle of TSA, traffic, ATC delays.


Most of my suburban DC neighbors with relatives in the NYC area drive I-95 rather than fly.

A few may take B6 in order to connect to the Caribbean - since Miami's immigration is perpetually overwhelmed.

And the train delivers you downtown to downtown. Unless you're connecting to something else, that hard to compete with.
 
N649DL
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:11 pm

I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:23 pm

I'm happy with B6 doing their hourly flights between BOS and DCA instead. NYC already has lots of options for getting to DC.
 
crescent
Posts: 106
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:53 am

In order to run LGA-BOS, B6 stopped some LGA-Florida flights and moved them to EWR. B6 simply has more frequent flyers in BOS it could leverage than fighting AA & DL in DCA.
 
IADCA
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:41 am

N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


Same answer as a bunch of other posts: train. Any city with a direct Amtrak connection downtown from NYC southwards (as Newark does, with easy transfers to PATH if you want to go to lower Manhattan) already has a ton of competition. There are ~35 trains a day that stop at Newark from DC, 10 of which even stop at the airport train station, and all of which also go to New York-Penn. The slot/gate/airway congestion and constant delays on the flights, plus the hassle of getting to/from the airports, makes the train a winner for most people.
 
N649DL
Posts: 606
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:47 am

IADCA wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


Same answer as a bunch of other posts: train. Any city with a direct Amtrak connection downtown from NYC southwards (as Newark does, with easy transfers to PATH if you want to go to lower Manhattan) already has a ton of competition. There are ~35 trains a day that stop at Newark from DC, 10 of which even stop at the airport train station, and all of which also go to New York-Penn. The slot/gate/airway congestion and constant delays on the flights, plus the hassle of getting to/from the airports, makes the train a winner for most people.


Amtrak trains are delayed very frequently as well to the point of annoyance. Not to mention, it's not cheap either unless you go off peak and use the Metroliner.

I was one of those people that always drove to DC on the East Coast. I didn't have Easy Pass and I still hit almost $20 in tolls by the time I got to Baltimore. You can't win either way.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:14 am

N649DL wrote:
IADCA wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


Same answer as a bunch of other posts: train. Any city with a direct Amtrak connection downtown from NYC southwards (as Newark does, with easy transfers to PATH if you want to go to lower Manhattan) already has a ton of competition. There are ~35 trains a day that stop at Newark from DC, 10 of which even stop at the airport train station, and all of which also go to New York-Penn. The slot/gate/airway congestion and constant delays on the flights, plus the hassle of getting to/from the airports, makes the train a winner for most people.


Amtrak trains are delayed very frequently as well to the point of annoyance. Not to mention, it's not cheap either unless you go off peak and use the Metroliner.

I was one of those people that always drove to DC on the East Coast. I didn't have Easy Pass and I still hit almost $20 in tolls by the time I got to Baltimore. You can't win either way.


As someone who used to do DC-NYC once a week (and sometimes more), I'll agree that there's no good way, but I found the train vastly more reliable, and more comfortable to boot. The money was usually on that side too.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:00 am

N649DL wrote:
IADCA wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


Same answer as a bunch of other posts: train. Any city with a direct Amtrak connection downtown from NYC southwards (as Newark does, with easy transfers to PATH if you want to go to lower Manhattan) already has a ton of competition. There are ~35 trains a day that stop at Newark from DC, 10 of which even stop at the airport train station, and all of which also go to New York-Penn. The slot/gate/airway congestion and constant delays on the flights, plus the hassle of getting to/from the airports, makes the train a winner for most people.


Amtrak trains are delayed very frequently as well to the point of annoyance. Not to mention, it's not cheap either unless you go off peak and use the Metroliner.

I was one of those people that always drove to DC on the East Coast. I didn't have Easy Pass and I still hit almost $20 in tolls by the time I got to Baltimore. You can't win either way.

I will point out that trains on this particular route are less delay-prone than the rest of Amtrak, and that LGA and JFK are both highly delay-prone airports.
Simply put, using delays as a distinction between the two services is silly.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
UALFAson
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:24 am

N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


What are you talking about? United has flown this route since the merger, and Continental for years before that. UA operated DCA-EWR 7x today.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
WWads
Posts: 328
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:05 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
N649DL wrote:
IADCA wrote:

Same answer as a bunch of other posts: train. Any city with a direct Amtrak connection downtown from NYC southwards (as Newark does, with easy transfers to PATH if you want to go to lower Manhattan) already has a ton of competition. There are ~35 trains a day that stop at Newark from DC, 10 of which even stop at the airport train station, and all of which also go to New York-Penn. The slot/gate/airway congestion and constant delays on the flights, plus the hassle of getting to/from the airports, makes the train a winner for most people.


Amtrak trains are delayed very frequently as well to the point of annoyance. Not to mention, it's not cheap either unless you go off peak and use the Metroliner.

I was one of those people that always drove to DC on the East Coast. I didn't have Easy Pass and I still hit almost $20 in tolls by the time I got to Baltimore. You can't win either way.

I will point out that trains on this particular route are less delay-prone than the rest of Amtrak, and that LGA and JFK are both highly delay-prone airports.
Simply put, using delays as a distinction between the two services is silly.


Yeah the NEC between DC and NYC is generally reliable. Meanwhile, if a single drop of rain falls at LGA, ZNY shuts down.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:19 am

UALFAson wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


What are you talking about? United has flown this route since the merger, and Continental for years before that. UA operated DCA-EWR 7x today.


That's the point - only one carrier serves the route presently, as opposed to two for DCA to each of the other two NYC airports.
 
philabos
Posts: 42
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:10 am

WWads wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Amtrak trains are delayed very frequently as well to the point of annoyance. Not to mention, it's not cheap either unless you go off peak and use the Metroliner.

I was one of those people that always drove to DC on the East Coast. I didn't have Easy Pass and I still hit almost $20 in tolls by the time I got to Baltimore. You can't win either way.

I will point out that trains on this particular route are less delay-prone than the rest of Amtrak, and that LGA and JFK are both highly delay-prone airports.
Simply put, using delays as a distinction between the two services is silly.


Yeah the NEC between DC and NYC is generally reliable. Meanwhile, if a single drop of rain falls at LGA, ZNY shuts down.

True.
Acela can command $230 biz class and almost $400 first class, no coaches.
There is a reason for that. Most explained already.
The first class includes a meal, biz class you buy in the cafe car.
And btw, the Metroliners have not existed for almost 20 years.
Replaced by Acela which is also in the process of being replaced.
One of the few places where trains just make more sense and are actually competitive, even preferred.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:04 pm

IADCA wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


What are you talking about? United has flown this route since the merger, and Continental for years before that. UA operated DCA-EWR 7x today.


That's the point - only one carrier serves the route presently, as opposed to two for DCA to each of the other two NYC airports.

But that one carrier is pretty established and strong in the market, you're still competing with the other two as it's all NYC, and (and this is the cruncher) Acela takes you to downtown Newark as well as Midtown very conveniently. That's a battle you can't really win.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
evank516
Posts: 1977
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:14 pm

IADCA wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I was always under the impression if B6 ever added more DCA routes, EWR would be first just on lack of competition alone


What are you talking about? United has flown this route since the merger, and Continental for years before that. UA operated DCA-EWR 7x today.


That's the point - only one carrier serves the route presently, as opposed to two for DCA to each of the other two NYC airports.


I mean, B6 started EWR-BOS before they started JFK-BOS.

Until January, the excuse is that they fly JFK-IAD, but I think the argument is sound to at least offer a token presence on the route if they can get the slots. Let's face it, if you're an airline centered on the Northeast then you need to fly NYC-DC, Acela or not.
 
Flighty
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:26 pm

In a shuttle operation, LGA-DCA (and LGA-BOS) are the weakest. DCA-BOS is the strongest, and while I don't know today's profitability, in the past, that is what made the money. I think any BOS hub would have to serve DCA to be credible.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:55 pm

evank516 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
UALFAson wrote:

What are you talking about? United has flown this route since the merger, and Continental for years before that. UA operated DCA-EWR 7x today.


That's the point - only one carrier serves the route presently, as opposed to two for DCA to each of the other two NYC airports.


I mean, B6 started EWR-BOS before they started JFK-BOS.

Until January, the excuse is that they fly JFK-IAD, but I think the argument is sound to at least offer a token presence on the route if they can get the slots. Let's face it, if you're an airline centered on the Northeast then you need to fly NYC-DC, Acela or not.



They flew JFK BOS well before EWR BOS

They started LGA BOS after EWR because that was a tough decision involving cutting SRQ TPA RSW and trimming MCO FLL and PBI.

They only did that after slots at Newark went away. They essentially slid LGA Florida flying to EWR for lack of slots.

I agree JFK- DC will have to be started at some point.

You simply can’t be a major airline of New York and not connect DC with at least a token presence
 
evank516
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:58 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
evank516 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

That's the point - only one carrier serves the route presently, as opposed to two for DCA to each of the other two NYC airports.


I mean, B6 started EWR-BOS before they started JFK-BOS.

Until January, the excuse is that they fly JFK-IAD, but I think the argument is sound to at least offer a token presence on the route if they can get the slots. Let's face it, if you're an airline centered on the Northeast then you need to fly NYC-DC, Acela or not.



They flew JFK BOS well before EWR BOS

They started LGA BOS after EWR because that was a tough decision involving cutting SRQ TPA RSW and trimming MCO FLL and PBI.

They only did that after slots at Newark went away. They essentially slid LGA Florida flying to EWR for lack of slots.

I agree JFK- DC will have to be started at some point.

You simply can’t be a major airline of New York and not connect DC with at least a token presence


You sure about that? I remember JFK-BOS coming online after EWR and being surprised that EWR was first, but then again I could be thinking of JFK-IAD.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5505
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:34 pm

They have flown JFK BOS for a long time. I believe with the 190s arriving
 
evank516
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:35 pm

That I know. But I remember either JFK-IAD or JFK-BOS coming after they added EWR-IAD/BOS and being surprised EWR got it before JFK. I'm almost positive EWR-BOS was first.
 
WWads
Posts: 328
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Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:21 pm

Flighty wrote:
In a shuttle operation, LGA-DCA (and LGA-BOS) are the weakest. DCA-BOS is the strongest, and while I don't know today's profitability, in the past, that is what made the money. I think any BOS hub would have to serve DCA to be credible.


LGA-BOS is much more viable because Amtrak is not great between those cities. Metro North continually delays the Acela, and it's a longer route too.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:13 am

philabos wrote:
WWads wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
I will point out that trains on this particular route are less delay-prone than the rest of Amtrak, and that LGA and JFK are both highly delay-prone airports.
Simply put, using delays as a distinction between the two services is silly.


Yeah the NEC between DC and NYC is generally reliable. Meanwhile, if a single drop of rain falls at LGA, ZNY shuts down.

True.
Acela can command $230 biz class and almost $400 first class, no coaches.
There is a reason for that. Most explained already.
The first class includes a meal, biz class you buy in the cafe car.
And btw, the Metroliners have not existed for almost 20 years.
Replaced by Acela which is also in the process of being replaced.
One of the few places where trains just make more sense and are actually competitive, even preferred.


Metroliner and Acela used to run together. Metroliner was replaced with NE Regional and especially between NY and DC can mean $150 less in a ticket for only a half hour more. The difference in time is much more between Boston and New York.
 
sargester
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:29 pm

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:25 am

jfklganyc wrote:
BUF SYR ROC BTV PWM BOS ORH

Many flights loaded with connectors


all ORH have direct DCA service, DCA JFk on B6 ain't happening
 
IADCA
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Why B6 doesn’t fly NYC-DCA?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:06 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
IADCA wrote:
UALFAson wrote:

What are you talking about? United has flown this route since the merger, and Continental for years before that. UA operated DCA-EWR 7x today.


That's the point - only one carrier serves the route presently, as opposed to two for DCA to each of the other two NYC airports.

But that one carrier is pretty established and strong in the market, you're still competing with the other two as it's all NYC, and (and this is the cruncher) Acela takes you to downtown Newark as well as Midtown very conveniently. That's a battle you can't really win.


I wasn't advocating the correctness of the point, only explaining what it was to someone who appeared to be confused. I agree with Acela point - which is exactly why I posted it quite a bit earlier in the thread - but even the regional trains are preferable to flying for a lot of people, and once you get those included in the setup, you see the huge frequency/capacity advantage Amtrak possesses that's pretty much insurmountable for an airline.

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