FlyBitcoin
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:05 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
I imagine the rest of Skyteam is like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, CZ was certainly one of the worse products in Skyteam.


I am still glad I got to spend 17,500 SkyMiles to ride in one of the 8 Premium A380 seats from CAN to PEK. Knew that relationship was going to end sooner than later once AA bought a stake in CZ. Can't complain about that product, although I might if I had to pay cash.
 
moyangmm
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:35 pm

mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.


But I don't think there is any tier-1 rights left for Chinese carriers...
 
alfa164
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:40 pm

FlyBitcoin wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
I imagine the rest of Skyteam is like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, CZ was certainly one of the worse products in Skyteam.

I am still glad I got to spend 17,500 SkyMiles to ride in one of the 8 Premium A380 seats from CAN to PEK. Knew that relationship was going to end sooner than later once AA bought a stake in CZ. Can't complain about that product, although I might if I had to pay cash.


Fram a mileage point-of-view, you got a good deal. From a passenger's point-of-view... I am not sure CZ is an asset to any alliance, other than offering its route structure. The on-board experience has to be one of the worst I have ever seen.
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:31 pm

I agree with those who have mentioned that CZ will not immediately join oneworld (or at all). Cathay's attitude seems like too big a fight for CZ with very little added value in case they eventually get to join.

I think CZ will deepen its cooperation with AA, and maybe with BA. That is for sure.

I also expect the CZ joint venture with AF and KL to remain unchanged. Seems all three carriers are comfortable with their alliance and they derive profit from it.
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:37 pm

I'm guessing this all has to do with CZ's pending move to new airport in Beijing and the OW carriers not wanting it to become a ST fortress.

Not all OW carriers will move to the new airport but if CZ and MU are both still in ST, it makes it more difficult down the road for OW carriers to expand at the airport. Feeds and slots may be hard to negotiate and they will always be in the shadow of ST presence there. Getting CZ out of ST now ensures there is a non-ST hub airline at the new airport and the balance of power doesn't tip in favor of the likes of DL and AF/KLM that will have much more seamless operation than OW carriers that were staring at the possibility of having to forge their own separate agreements with MU and CZ still under the ST umbrella.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:56 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
In regards to CZ and Oneworld, there's still the potential CX veto to deal with considering CX has been strengthing relationships including a recent JV with long time frenemy turned partner QF.


There is no JV between CX and QF. What has been announced recently was a limited number of codeshares. It's a very minor partnership and only really noteworthy because of the traditional animosity between the two carriers.

QF does have a JV with MU, something that surprisingly few people seem to know about.
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bzcat
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:00 pm

Any word on CZ subsidiary MF (Xiamen Airlines) will follow it out of SkyTeam? Would be kind of award if the parent airline is out by the subsidiary airline is still in.
 
panamair
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:38 pm

EddieDude wrote:
I think CZ will deepen its cooperation with AA, and maybe with BA. That is for sure.
.


BA currently also codeshares with MU (since around 2016).

bzcat wrote:
Any word on CZ subsidiary MF (Xiamen Airlines) will follow it out of SkyTeam? Would be kind of award if the parent airline is out by the subsidiary airline is still in.


MF plans on staying in Skyteam:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-china ... KKCN1NK0ZS

"Xiamen Airlines Co Ltd, a subsidiary of China Southern that is also a SkyTeam member, has no plans to quit the alliance, Xiamen spokesman Qiu Dapeng said on Thursday..."
 
ben237829624
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:52 pm

mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.

Not likely before the next US-CHINA frequency negotiation. There is no more Zone 1 - US frequency on the Chinese side. There is 7 CAN dedicated frequency (along with around 21 US to China Zone 1 that will become available soon) on the US side however.
 
ben237829624
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:03 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
In regards to CZ and Oneworld, there's still the potential CX veto to deal with considering CX has been strengthing relationships including a recent JV with long time frenemy turned partner QF.


There is no JV between CX and QF. What has been announced recently was a limited number of codeshares. It's a very minor partnership and only really noteworthy because of the traditional animosity between the two carriers.

QF does have a JV with MU, something that surprisingly few people seem to know about.


I think that relationship has really gone downhill since the DL-MU-AFKL partnership is formed and the proposed JetStar Hong Kong got rejected.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:11 pm

ben237829624 wrote:
mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.

Not likely before the next US-CHINA frequency negotiation. There is no more Zone 1 - US frequency on the Chinese side. There is 7 CAN dedicated frequency (along with around 21 US to China Zone 1 that will become available soon) on the US side however.


Would they be able to switch out an existing route for CAN-DFW? Say, if NYC-Fuzhou or LAX-Qingdao was performing poorly could they switch it out for CAN-DFW without requesting additional frequencies or going through any long approvals?
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:16 pm

From what I understand, there are notable exit fees that need to be paid when an airline departs and alliance; and I recall the merged American for example stating that they paid US Airways' Star Alliance exit fees and the merged LATAM entity covered the same exit fees for TAM. Would be interesting to see whether CZ received any assistance with their fees and from who if so.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:16 pm

ben237829624 wrote:
mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.

Not likely before the next US-CHINA frequency negotiation. There is no more Zone 1 - US frequency on the Chinese side. There is 7 CAN dedicated frequency (along with around 21 US to China Zone 1 that will become available soon) on the US side however.
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amadorE175
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:29 pm

mfe777 wrote:
ben237829624 wrote:
mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.

Not likely before the next US-CHINA frequency negotiation. There is no more Zone 1 - US frequency on the Chinese side. There is 7 CAN dedicated frequency (along with around 21 US to China Zone 1 that will become available soon) on the US side however.


Would they be able to switch out an existing route for CAN-DFW? Say, if NYC-Fuzhou or LAX-Qingdao was performing poorly could they switch it out for CAN-DFW without requesting additional frequencies or going through any long approvals?


Fuzhou and Qingdao are in not in the same zone as CAN, PEK, and PVG. They'd have to swap out a route from either PEK or PVG. I'm not sure whether there would be a long (or any) approval process for the change.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens with MSP-PVG and ATL-PVG as I am sure both routes rely on feed from CZ at PVG.


PVG is a heavy O & D market.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:31 pm

ben237829624 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
In regards to CZ and Oneworld, there's still the potential CX veto to deal with considering CX has been strengthing relationships including a recent JV with long time frenemy turned partner QF.


There is no JV between CX and QF. What has been announced recently was a limited number of codeshares. It's a very minor partnership and only really noteworthy because of the traditional animosity between the two carriers.

QF does have a JV with MU, something that surprisingly few people seem to know about.


I think that relationship has really gone downhill since the DL-MU-AFKL partnership is formed and the proposed JetStar Hong Kong got rejected.


Which relationship is that? Not QF-MU, that has only been around since August 2015 and the two airlines have an immunised joint business on all Australia-China flights.
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 pm

EddieDude wrote:
I agree with those who have mentioned that CZ will not immediately join oneworld (or at all). Cathay's attitude seems like too big a fight for CZ with very little added value in case they eventually get to join.

I think CZ will deepen its cooperation with AA, and maybe with BA. That is for sure.

I also expect the CZ joint venture with AF and KL to remain unchanged. Seems all three carriers are comfortable with their alliance and they derive profit from it.

That JV also contains MF and MU and which I believe only MU will remain in the future.

RyanairGuru wrote:
ben237829624 wrote:

I think that relationship has really gone downhill since the DL-MU-AFKL partnership is formed and the proposed JetStar Hong Kong got rejected.


Which relationship is that? Not QF-MU, that has only been around since August 2015 and the two airlines have an immunised joint business on all Australia-China flights.

Not to mention QF/MU has been in a cozier relationship than QF-CX/CZ/AFKL/DL for like the past ten years. Jetstar Hong Kong is more about the fight between CX and QF, not much to do with MU (other than the proposed shareholding).

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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:16 pm

moyangmm wrote:
mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.


But I don't think there is any tier-1 rights left for Chinese carriers...


Doesn't mean they won't do it from a tier-2, or split some of their other frequencies and drop A380s into DFW.

bzcat wrote:
I'm guessing this all has to do with CZ's pending move to new airport in Beijing and the OW carriers not wanting it to become a ST fortress.

Not all OW carriers will move to the new airport but if CZ and MU are both still in ST, it makes it more difficult down the road for OW carriers to expand at the airport. Feeds and slots may be hard to negotiate and they will always be in the shadow of ST presence there. Getting CZ out of ST now ensures there is a non-ST hub airline at the new airport and the balance of power doesn't tip in favor of the likes of DL and AF/KLM that will have much more seamless operation than OW carriers that were staring at the possibility of having to forge their own separate agreements with MU and CZ still under the ST umbrella.


No, it's just because SkyTeam wasn't really doing anything for CZ that they couldn't do better by wanting out of the alliance.

mfe777 wrote:
ben237829624 wrote:
mfe777 wrote:
The rumored CAN-DFW on CZ might be closer to happening then.

Not likely before the next US-CHINA frequency negotiation. There is no more Zone 1 - US frequency on the Chinese side. There is 7 CAN dedicated frequency (along with around 21 US to China Zone 1 that will become available soon) on the US side however.


Would they be able to switch out an existing route for CAN-DFW? Say, if NYC-Fuzhou or LAX-Qingdao was performing poorly could they switch it out for CAN-DFW without requesting additional frequencies or going through any long approvals?


No, because those are not tier 1 like CAN is, but AA could certainly launch DFW-CAN if they wanted to use the frequencies on the US side to prevent other US carriers from jumping in.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:04 am

chunhimlai wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Another thing - CX nearby competitor Shenzhen Airlines based in SZX is already in Star Alliance, this mean CX joining to Star may not be possible!


Parent company of Shenzhen Airlines is also 2nd largest shareholder and JV partner of CX

I didn't know that, but thanks for this info.
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xiaotung
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:18 am

bzcat wrote:
Any word on CZ subsidiary MF (Xiamen Airlines) will follow it out of SkyTeam? Would be kind of award if the parent airline is out by the subsidiary airline is still in.


CZ quit on the exact 10 year anniversary of joining SkyTeam and the wording of the news release is that they will not renew the contract instead of breaking the contract which could mean there was no exit fee. If that's any indication and if the contract had a 10 year term, MF could choose also not to renew but that will be in 2022-2023.
 
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Re: Official: Chins Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:44 am

A question. Lots are saying they are leaving one alliance, but may not join another.

Is the cost of alliance membership (ie annual fees, technology cost etc) that great to warrant an exit? This would be the only benefit to CZ, given Sky is not as restrictive as Star in allowing member carriers to work with non alliance carriers and so Id expect CZ would have more or less been able to enter into deals that it would like to have to have been in so i suspect the opportunity cost would not be a significant factor.

So I suspect there might be more to come than just an exit from Skyteam....
 
ben237829624
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:58 am

winginit wrote:
From what I understand, there are notable exit fees that need to be paid when an airline departs and alliance; and I recall the merged American for example stating that they paid US Airways' Star Alliance exit fees and the merged LATAM entity covered the same exit fees for TAM. Would be interesting to see whether CZ received any assistance with their fees and from who if so.


CZ did not "exit" SkyTeam but rather "not to renew" its membership with SkyTeam. It's more like a lease if you move out early you get a penalty but if you move out at the end of the lease and not sign a new one you just pay someone to move your stuff but you still get your security deposit back.
Most likely the biggest cost would be production of branding materials, painting of special livery air craft and retraining of staff.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:47 am

andrewying wrote:
klm617 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens with MSP-PVG and ATL-PVG as I am sure both routes rely on feed from CZ at PVG.


MU provides feeds, not CZ. MU’s very existence is why cZ wants to leave.


But I remembered it was CZ who let/ sponsored / invited MU to join SkyTeam years ago
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:48 am

VTCIE wrote:
SkyTeam had too many Mainland carriers already: CZ, MU and MF, not to forget FM. They failed to add too much value to the alliance, not to mention that alliances themselves have plateaued in importance. If Oneworld does manage to allow room for both CZ and CX, it can take a stranglehold on the Pearl River Delta, combining Asia's largest airline (by fleet size) with one of its most premium (by popular perception). This also shows that AA and DL are the biggest kingmakers within their respective alliances.

This will be the first big exit of an airline from an alliance in years that isn't due to a shutdown. I believe FM (Shanghai Airlines) was the last one in 2011 (TAM and US Airways should not be considered).


MF belongs to CZ and MF belongs to MU. So technically there are just 2 carriers in Mainland, but I agree, 2 is still too much.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:41 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
SkyTeam had too many Mainland carriers already: CZ, MU and MF, not to forget FM. They failed to add too much value to the alliance, not to mention that alliances themselves have plateaued in importance. If Oneworld does manage to allow room for both CZ and CX, it can take a stranglehold on the Pearl River Delta, combining Asia's largest airline (by fleet size) with one of its most premium (by popular perception). This also shows that AA and DL are the biggest kingmakers within their respective alliances.

This will be the first big exit of an airline from an alliance in years that isn't due to a shutdown. I believe FM (Shanghai Airlines) was the last one in 2011 (TAM and US Airways should not be considered).

MF belongs to CZ and MF belongs to MU. So technically there are just 2 carriers in Mainland, but I agree, 2 is still too much.


You mean FM belongs to MU. Still, I don't agree with the vast majority of the posters on this thread. I don't know why people feel CX will veto CZ from joining Oneworld. The alliance stands to profit from a Mainland member, not least due to the massive domestic network. CX/KA can only do so much to cover the PRC without a Mainland member, and it will move a step in the U.S. direction (the big three airlines in the big three alliances). In the event of CZ joining Oneworld, OW stands a lot to gain if there is something as a CZ-CX partnership. CZ can maintain its codeshares with Air France-KLM and CX with all the Star members without too much fuss. The biggest beneficiary will be Oneworld as it will suddenly be in a much stronger position both in the Pearl River Delta and at Daxing.

Furthermore, an airline as big as CZ ought not to stay out of an alliance for a long time. Among full-service airlines of a comparable size, only EK and HU are outside an alliance, and they are half the size of CZ. Therefore I suppose it is in the best interest of CZ to join Oneworld within two years at least.
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SEAflyer97
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:04 am

VTCIE wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
SkyTeam had too many Mainland carriers already: CZ, MU and MF, not to forget FM. They failed to add too much value to the alliance, not to mention that alliances themselves have plateaued in importance. If Oneworld does manage to allow room for both CZ and CX, it can take a stranglehold on the Pearl River Delta, combining Asia's largest airline (by fleet size) with one of its most premium (by popular perception). This also shows that AA and DL are the biggest kingmakers within their respective alliances.

This will be the first big exit of an airline from an alliance in years that isn't due to a shutdown. I believe FM (Shanghai Airlines) was the last one in 2011 (TAM and US Airways should not be considered).

MF belongs to CZ and MF belongs to MU. So technically there are just 2 carriers in Mainland, but I agree, 2 is still too much.


You mean FM belongs to MU. Still, I don't agree with the vast majority of the posters on this thread. I don't know why people feel CX will veto CZ from joining Oneworld. The alliance stands to profit from a Mainland member, not least due to the massive domestic network. CX/KA can only do so much to cover the PRC without a Mainland member, and it will move a step in the U.S. direction (the big three airlines in the big three alliances). In the event of CZ joining Oneworld, OW stands a lot to gain if there is something as a CZ-CX partnership. CZ can maintain its codeshares with Air France-KLM and CX with all the Star members without too much fuss. The biggest beneficiary will be Oneworld as it will suddenly be in a much stronger position both in the Pearl River Delta and at Daxing.

Furthermore, an airline as big as CZ ought not to stay out of an alliance for a long time. Among full-service airlines of a comparable size, only EK and HU are outside an alliance, and they are half the size of CZ. Therefore I suppose it is in the best interest of CZ to join Oneworld within two years at least.

There will never be a CZ-CX partnership. CX is closer to CA. AA is aiming for CZ's Beijing connections, and it has no interest in entering CAN. I think CZ will stay independent while adding partners.
 
Byrdluvs747
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:17 am

SEAflyer97 wrote:
There will never be a CZ-CX partnership. CX is closer to CA.


Yet Swire has the final say, not CA.
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xiaotung
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:25 am

VTCIE wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
SkyTeam had too many Mainland carriers already: CZ, MU and MF, not to forget FM. They failed to add too much value to the alliance, not to mention that alliances themselves have plateaued in importance. If Oneworld does manage to allow room for both CZ and CX, it can take a stranglehold on the Pearl River Delta, combining Asia's largest airline (by fleet size) with one of its most premium (by popular perception). This also shows that AA and DL are the biggest kingmakers within their respective alliances.

This will be the first big exit of an airline from an alliance in years that isn't due to a shutdown. I believe FM (Shanghai Airlines) was the last one in 2011 (TAM and US Airways should not be considered).

MF belongs to CZ and MF belongs to MU. So technically there are just 2 carriers in Mainland, but I agree, 2 is still too much.


You mean FM belongs to MU. Still, I don't agree with the vast majority of the posters on this thread. I don't know why people feel CX will veto CZ from joining Oneworld. The alliance stands to profit from a Mainland member, not least due to the massive domestic network. CX/KA can only do so much to cover the PRC without a Mainland member, and it will move a step in the U.S. direction (the big three airlines in the big three alliances). In the event of CZ joining Oneworld, OW stands a lot to gain if there is something as a CZ-CX partnership. CZ can maintain its codeshares with Air France-KLM and CX with all the Star members without too much fuss. The biggest beneficiary will be Oneworld as it will suddenly be in a much stronger position both in the Pearl River Delta and at Daxing.

Furthermore, an airline as big as CZ ought not to stay out of an alliance for a long time. Among full-service airlines of a comparable size, only EK and HU are outside an alliance, and they are half the size of CZ. Therefore I suppose it is in the best interest of CZ to join Oneworld within two years at least.


If CX was in a much healthier financial position, I would tend to agree with you, as we have seen both SQ and TG in *A. However, given CX's current financial woes to which they attribute mostly the rise of Mainland carriers, I am afraid they can be easily spooked. What if at the same time CA pushed them to exit oneworld, then the same could be asked if SQ could tolerate CX in *A?
 
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:35 am

Strengthening relations with British Airways (and Iberia) would be interesting.

For instance Chongqing is a CZ focus city. Would this mean flights from Chongqing to London (I see however Tianjin Airlines operates that route), Madrid and some AA American hub?
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:19 am

VTCIE wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
SkyTeam had too many Mainland carriers already: CZ, MU and MF, not to forget FM. They failed to add too much value to the alliance, not to mention that alliances themselves have plateaued in importance. If Oneworld does manage to allow room for both CZ and CX, it can take a stranglehold on the Pearl River Delta, combining Asia's largest airline (by fleet size) with one of its most premium (by popular perception). This also shows that AA and DL are the biggest kingmakers within their respective alliances.

This will be the first big exit of an airline from an alliance in years that isn't due to a shutdown. I believe FM (Shanghai Airlines) was the last one in 2011 (TAM and US Airways should not be considered).

MF belongs to CZ and MF belongs to MU. So technically there are just 2 carriers in Mainland, but I agree, 2 is still too much.


You mean FM belongs to MU. Still, I don't agree with the vast majority of the posters on this thread. I don't know why people feel CX will veto CZ from joining Oneworld. The alliance stands to profit from a Mainland member, not least due to the massive domestic network. CX/KA can only do so much to cover the PRC without a Mainland member, and it will move a step in the U.S. direction (the big three airlines in the big three alliances). In the event of CZ joining Oneworld, OW stands a lot to gain if there is something as a CZ-CX partnership. CZ can maintain its codeshares with Air France-KLM and CX with all the Star members without too much fuss. The biggest beneficiary will be Oneworld as it will suddenly be in a much stronger position both in the Pearl River Delta and at Daxing.

Furthermore, an airline as big as CZ ought not to stay out of an alliance for a long time. Among full-service airlines of a comparable size, only EK and HU are outside an alliance, and they are half the size of CZ. Therefore I suppose it is in the best interest of CZ to join Oneworld within two years at least.


CX disagreed HU to join OneWorld for long time, just because of HU's subsidiary (HX) in HKG. No way they will allow a much stronger competitor CZ, who base in a nearby airport to join OneWorld.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:35 am

HU's parent also has financial issues to worry about over HU joining an Alliance in the short to medium term.

OW is out and Star is less likely. SkyTeam is their only viable option once HU's parent HNA gets their financial resources under control.
 
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:20 am

klakzky123 wrote:
usssla wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:

No reason for the JV to end. If anything CZ should leave Skyteam and stay out of the alliance game. Just keep partnerships going with everyone. Leaving Skyteam lets CZ build up its new partnership with AA while retaining existing relationships (if desired). China Southern has a valuable network to offer to any partner. Restricting itself to an alliance seems like a silly move given that everyone wants partners in China. Its clear that DL is closer to MU so CZ had to make its own move. Good for them.


I remember Skyteam requires member to limit the cooperation with non-ST airline.
after CZ leave ST, i doubt if AF is still able to cooperate with CZ.


The issue is with CZ. CZ has lots of non-alliance codeshares and they were the ones maxing out. That's why CZ is leaving. They couldn't fully codeshare with AA because they had maxed out non-Alliance codeshare routes. AF and KL on the other hand largely stick within the alliance (with a few exceptions) so having CZ's routes become part of the non-alliance pool probably won't be that big a deal. Also I believe the codeshare rules are largely tied to codeshares with airlines in another alliance (rather than non-aligned carriers). There's been some vagueness on this but that was my previous understanding (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think the existing JV will continue on and leaving Skyteam will allow CZ to codeshare across AA's network. I'm skeptical that CZ will enter OW with Cathay around to veto the deal.


CZ creating an AS-like whore business model makes sense.

It’s interesting in reading these posts how there’s an underlying belief that SkyTeam is the third choice alliance.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:35 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
MF belongs to CZ and MF belongs to MU. So technically there are just 2 carriers in Mainland, but I agree, 2 is still too much.


You mean FM belongs to MU. Still, I don't agree with the vast majority of the posters on this thread. I don't know why people feel CX will veto CZ from joining Oneworld. The alliance stands to profit from a Mainland member, not least due to the massive domestic network. CX/KA can only do so much to cover the PRC without a Mainland member, and it will move a step in the U.S. direction (the big three airlines in the big three alliances). In the event of CZ joining Oneworld, OW stands a lot to gain if there is something as a CZ-CX partnership. CZ can maintain its codeshares with Air France-KLM and CX with all the Star members without too much fuss. The biggest beneficiary will be Oneworld as it will suddenly be in a much stronger position both in the Pearl River Delta and at Daxing.

Furthermore, an airline as big as CZ ought not to stay out of an alliance for a long time. Among full-service airlines of a comparable size, only EK and HU are outside an alliance, and they are half the size of CZ. Therefore I suppose it is in the best interest of CZ to join Oneworld within two years at least.


CX disagreed HU to join OneWorld for long time, just because of HU's subsidiary (HX) in HKG. No way they will allow a much stronger competitor CZ, who base in a nearby airport to join OneWorld.


HX and CX compete at the same airport. CAN is a different airport and therefore a different market, never mind that it is a short train ride away. CX will never allow HNA airlines to get close to Oneworld, but there is no reason to display this animosity towards CZ.

Furthermore, I used HU as an example of a large full-service carrier that isn't a member of an alliance. It just happens to be Chinese. It is otherwise of no consequence to this thread. You might as well have seen my other example (EK).
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:25 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
HU's parent also has financial issues to worry about over HU joining an Alliance in the short to medium term.

OW is out and Star is less likely. SkyTeam is their only viable option once HU's parent HNA gets their financial resources under control.


HU has been interested to join OW for years and at that time HNA didn't facing any financial issues.
In addition, the liquidity issues are confined with the non-aviation related business as
it is the PRC Government ordered the bank stop to provide financing for HNA's overseas acquit ion projects.
The government has expressed that they will providing support to HNA's aviation business including financial resources.
So HU itself is safe and far from bankrupt.
 
winginit
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:19 pm

ben237829624 wrote:
winginit wrote:
From what I understand, there are notable exit fees that need to be paid when an airline departs and alliance; and I recall the merged American for example stating that they paid US Airways' Star Alliance exit fees and the merged LATAM entity covered the same exit fees for TAM. Would be interesting to see whether CZ received any assistance with their fees and from who if so.


CZ did not "exit" SkyTeam but rather "not to renew" its membership with SkyTeam. It's more like a lease if you move out early you get a penalty but if you move out at the end of the lease and not sign a new one you just pay someone to move your stuff but you still get your security deposit back.
Most likely the biggest cost would be production of branding materials, painting of special livery air craft and retraining of staff.


Ah. Indeed I missed that detail. Thank you.
 
Andre39
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:08 am

winginit wrote:
ben237829624 wrote:
winginit wrote:
From what I understand, there are notable exit fees that need to be paid when an airline departs and alliance; and I recall the merged American for example stating that they paid US Airways' Star Alliance exit fees and the merged LATAM entity covered the same exit fees for TAM. Would be interesting to see whether CZ received any assistance with their fees and from who if so.


CZ did not "exit" SkyTeam but rather "not to renew" its membership with SkyTeam. It's more like a lease if you move out early you get a penalty but if you move out at the end of the lease and not sign a new one you just pay someone to move your stuff but you still get your security deposit back.
Most likely the biggest cost would be production of branding materials, painting of special livery air craft and retraining of staff.


Ah. Indeed I missed that detail. Thank you.


I am quite surprised that the membership ’runs out‘. I thought alliance memberships are a long-term commitment and don’t have to be renewed. Does anyone have an idea if this is standard practice within SkyTeam?
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:51 pm

Related: China Eastern (Skyteam) to buy a stake in Juneyao (Star Alliance 'connect' partner).

Looks like either the Alliances are slowly becoming 'irrelevant' if Alliance members keep buying into airlines of opposing alliances.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201811/2 ... 8a6d3.html
 
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SQ789
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:58 pm

Let me say that is it possible that CZ would join OW as a connect partner in the future?
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xiaotung
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:23 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
Related: China Eastern (Skyteam) to buy a stake in Juneyao (Star Alliance 'connect' partner).

Looks like either the Alliances are slowly becoming 'irrelevant' if Alliance members keep buying into airlines of opposing alliances.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201811/2 ... 8a6d3.html


In China, companies need to take the direction from the government. The Shanghai government feels that they need their home carriers to cooperate with each other which is a more efficient way to build a better aviation hub to compete with other cities. It's my guess that if Juneyao goes up against this direction, they could face obstacles such as obtaining landing slots especially with the number of B787-9 they have ordered and a lot is at stake. This is no way a rational business decision and certainly bad for consumers.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Official: CZ to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:14 pm

NZ321 wrote:
I don't see CZ bound for Oneworld. What evidence do we have of this?

Deepening ties with AA and I believe BA as well but don't quote me on the later.

Whats more interesting is the rumors of CX dropping OW and heading to Star, but who knows.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:55 pm

Please please please let this mean that DL can start a codeshare/feeder relationship with CX, and FINALLY give its flyers decent access to Hong Kong on carriers that don't have a tragically spotty historical safety record!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:55 pm

and you inferred references is to ... CI? KE?
Both CI and KE are much better now than reverse thrust while airborne or landing on a mountain-top beacon. Agreed... the top-down, "see nothing, say nothing" culture is still too prevalent.
 
c933103
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:40 am

CZ leaving SkyTeam might be a demand made by Chinese government. According to some random users on Chinese online forum.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:16 am

WPvsMW wrote:
and you inferred references is to ... CI? KE?

Indeed. Could easily fit GA as well, though they're hardly of significant use to N.Am originating fliers.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:52 am

Incorrect. GA was significantly transformed service and safety wise after the 2009 incident. Now over-cautious on safety.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:03 am

So looks like their new delivery planes has been seen without Skyteam livery and all fleet with ST special livery will be gone soon I think.
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B1168
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:42 pm

About the new routes, let’s have a short recap on the possibilities for the “rumors” of DFW-CAN:
1. Stopovers, essentially stopping the plane to a focus city of CZ which is categorized as a tier 2 city w/ available flight slots;
Benefit: easy to do and won’t affect the current schedule of planes;
Disadvantage: sabotage on the fame on the “canton route” (trust me, most every passenger on CZ659/60 who “thought” it was a nonstop literally cursed the airline and swear never to fly again)
2. AA fly it nonstop; if there is just insufficient pax to work, cut DFW-HKG to 789 from 77w.
Benefit: easy to coordinate; satisfy spot to avoid UA take it (nearly happened in 08);
Disadvantage: insufficient pax; DFW-HKG has one of the worst load factors for flights to US, and flying in 788 seems to be too much a stretch; AA isn’t that interested in Asian market and the only place it can make flights to CAN work is LAX, where there are 10 weekly flights already;
3. AA fly LAX; CZ cut 3 of its weekly flights and use the slot for DFW;
Benefit: straightforward and beneficial for both sides;
Disadvantage: unlikely without open sky agreement, but if really openskied, that is redundant;
4. Try to cut flights by making use of A380; in practice, that means to cut 14 weekly to 10 for NYC by switching 7 of them to 388;
Benefit: free of AA trouble; compensate for the “relatively” low load factor for NYC (above 85%, still);
Disadvantage: don’t have 380 available for call(unless seasonal PEK-AMS&CAN-SYD A380 service are legitimately substituted by other planes); A380 structurally overweighted, might not make it with reasonable payload;

So, what plan do you guys think is the most reasonable?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:24 pm

No plans to join OW.

Oneworld: ‘No plans’ to add China Southern
http://atwonline.com/airlines/oneworld- ... a-southern

Oneworld has “no plans” for China Southern Airlines to become a member of the alliance, according to CEO Ron Guerney. Several oneworld members are talking about entering bilateral codesharing agreements with the airline, however.

China Southern has left the competing SkyTeam alliance at the end of last year, raising speculation that oneworld and Star may be chasing the carrier given its position as one of the three leading legacy airlines in China.

Oneworld is represented through Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways, which has an extensive connecting network into China. It competes with China Southern on connecting flows through the respective hubs in Hong Kong and Guangzhou.
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chonetsao
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:40 pm

LAXintl wrote:
No plans to join OW.

Oneworld: ‘No plans’ to add China Southern
http://atwonline.com/airlines/oneworld- ... a-southern

Oneworld has “no plans” for China Southern Airlines to become a member of the alliance, according to CEO Ron Guerney. Several oneworld members are talking about entering bilateral codesharing agreements with the airline, however.

China Southern has left the competing SkyTeam alliance at the end of last year, raising speculation that oneworld and Star may be chasing the carrier given its position as one of the three leading legacy airlines in China.

Oneworld is represented through Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways, which has an extensive connecting network into China. It competes with China Southern on connecting flows through the respective hubs in Hong Kong and Guangzhou.


Wait until October 2019. Currently there is indeed no plan. The unofficial date for a decision is October 2019 when new Beijing Daxing airport opens. Oneworld is in talk with Chinese government about consolidate oneworld members in new Daxing airport. I think rumour is that CX/KA will stay in PEK and majority of the oneworld members including AA, BA, AY and MH could move over. That would near the end of CZs divorce with ST and membership invite for CZ will be issued around that time. The earliest time for CZ to confirm potential one-world membership would be between October and December 2019.
 
kriskim
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Re: Official: China Southern to exit SkyTeam

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:42 pm

1 month on and here at MEL atleast there are still SkyTeam logos and signage as though CZ never left, Sky Priority sign is still being used which is interesting. You would think things that are easily changed such as digital boards would of been changed by now but I think not.
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