GalebG4
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Rewinged a320 family

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:59 pm

With not so successful a380 project, a330 not selling well and a220 as new family member I personally don’t think Airbus probably won’t do anything i post in this topic. Since Ryanair showed us that one type makes a lot of economic sense, it would be nice if all airbus a320 family members have it’s own carbon wing so all of the versions are most efficient in its own sector.
A317neo as counterpart to e190, A318neo, A319neo, A320neo, a321neo and a322neo.
Same type of the aircraft with 7 different wings and one type of motor that can fit all the versions.
This idea probably doesn’t make economic sense but since e175 showed us that different versions of wings makes sense, it seems that airbus went in wrong direction. What do you think airbus could do with a320 family?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:10 pm

A320NEO is selling like cupcakes. So it is Boeing to move. In business, you don't need to strive to make the best, you need to strive to be a little better than the competition, Boeing in this case.

To counter the MOM-Boeing, Airbus might invest in a re-winged A321NEO and an A322, but that will require at least a 1bn Euro or even 5bn Euro if you want to develop an A322.

Personally I think it would be wise for Airbus to invest in the A350-1100 and looking at the true succesor for the A330 for the 2025-2030 period.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:50 am

Unfortunately there is absolutely no trend or data indicating a shortened version of the A319Neo would sell at all
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tullamarine
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:45 am

GalebG4 wrote:
With not so successful a380 project, a330 not selling well and a220 as new family member I personally don’t think Airbus probably won’t do anything i post in this topic. Since Ryanair showed us that one type makes a lot of economic sense, it would be nice if all airbus a320 family members have it’s own carbon wing so all of the versions are most efficient in its own sector.
A317neo as counterpart to e190, A318neo, A319neo, A320neo, a321neo and a322neo.
Same type of the aircraft with 7 different wings and one type of motor that can fit all the versions.
This idea probably doesn’t make economic sense but since e175 showed us that different versions of wings makes sense, it seems that airbus went in wrong direction. What do you think airbus could do with a320 family?

A shortened A319 makes no sense. The A318 shows that such a plane is just too heavy. Even if you gave it a new wing, which is a massively expensive undertaking anyway, it would still be too heavy and offer nothing that the A220 doesn't do anyway.

Rewinging the A320 series makes sense but only to upsize the A321 to a A322 which, if it could be developed at a reasonable price, would really mess with Boeing's plans for the 797.

Personally I think it would be wise for Airbus to invest in the A350-1100 and looking at the true succesor for the A330 for the 2025-2030 period.

I understand the A350-1100 and don't disagree though it would depend what sort of range you can get out of it and whether the A35J-ULR and the A35J is enough anyway. If the A350-1100 needs a new wing, the economics become very difficult.

I'm not so sure on a A330 replacement unless it is a regional A350 with further weight reductions which is not easy given a new wing for such a plane won't add up financially. A whole new type which really would only compete with the 789 will never make sense (788 is already in trouble and a 797 or A322 will probably kill it off). Once again, rewinging the A321 is a better way to bridge the existing gap.
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flee
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:28 am

If we look at how the B737 evolved over the decades, one can safely assume that after the NEO, Airbus will have to seriously consider improving the efficiency and weight of the A320 family wing.

However, there is no need to rush this as the A320Neo is still new in the market and production is still ramping up. Perhaps a carbon wing project can target 2025 as its EIS. In two or three years, Airbus will have a better idea as to how to optimise this wing. By then, there may be a need for a single class 250-270 seat A322 and the A320 might be the smallest member of the family.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
A320NEO is selling like cupcakes. So it is Boeing to move. In business, you don't need to strive to make the best, you need to strive to be a little better than the competition, Boeing in this case.

To counter the MOM-Boeing, Airbus might invest in a re-winged A321NEO and an A322, but that will require at least a 1bn Euro or even 5bn Euro if you want to develop an A322.

Personally I think it would be wise for Airbus to invest in the A350-1100 and looking at the true succesor for the A330 for the 2025-2030 period.


The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month. I think (hope) after regulators start really piling on carbon taxes, Airbus will be forced to get their act together and finally bring the design to 21st Century standards (and get Boeing to put the 737 out to pasture).

I don't think many people were concerned about Global Warming during 1988, including in Toulouse :bouncy:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:26 am

1989worstyear wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A320NEO is selling like cupcakes. So it is Boeing to move. In business, you don't need to strive to make the best, you need to strive to be a little better than the competition, Boeing in this case.

To counter the MOM-Boeing, Airbus might invest in a re-winged A321NEO and an A322, but that will require at least a 1bn Euro or even 5bn Euro if you want to develop an A322.

Personally I think it would be wise for Airbus to invest in the A350-1100 and looking at the true succesor for the A330 for the 2025-2030 period.


The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month. I think (hope) after regulators start really piling on carbon taxes, Airbus will be forced to get their act together and finally bring the design to 21st Century standards (and get Boeing to put the 737 out to pasture).

I don't think many people were concerned about Global Warming during 1988, including in Toulouse :bouncy:


Some were. 8-) But then again, the A320 series was a huge step forward from the previous generation: Boeing 737-300/400/500/600 series (even the 737-200 was being build back then), MD-80/MD-90/DC-9. The question is how much more efficiency could be gained from a re-winged versus how much does it cost. CO2 tax will help to shift the balance. We might see a rewinged A320 after all.
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ewt340
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:49 am

Currently, Airbus best sellers are A320neo, A321neo and A350-900.
Boeing best sellers are B737MAX8 and B787-9.

So, the market kind of speaks for itself. Big Narrow-body and Medium Size Wide-body is the best seller.

We could see changes when both Airbus and Boeing decided to do Clean-Sheet replacement for both A320 and B737. Until then, they wouldn't bother since it's selling too well.
 
brindabella
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:44 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Currently, Airbus best sellers are A320neo, A321neo and A350-900.
Boeing best sellers are B737MAX8 and B787-9.

So, the market kind of speaks for itself. Big Narrow-body and Medium Size Wide-body is the best seller.

We could see changes when both Airbus and Boeing decided to do Clean-Sheet replacement for both A320 and B737. Until then, they wouldn't bother since it's selling too well.

I hope the thread will be allowed to run = it is a truly fascinating (and rapidly evolving) calculation.

I will try to find an excellent post from BigJku in another thread. But meanwhile, and in brief:

The huge (and increasing) pressure on both AB and BA to increase and increase and increase their NB production rates has 3 consequences:

1) it will increasing lock-out any other OEM joining the party. The economies of scale already in place & continually growing mean no other OEM can get into the tussle.
AB and BA are just too far ahead. Bombardier tried - and went bankrupt, EG.

2) it will get even harder for EITHER AB or BA to break away and go to another generation. The other party will immediately swoop in, take (basically) all of the (MASSIVE) market and feast on the profits. The OEM which breaks ranks will face years of pain b4 it can get it's new product out - to be faced by the other which immediately discounts massively (which will be very very easy and basically painless).

3) ever-increasing ramps of well-understood products offer MEGA profits to both AB and BA. Neither party can just throw that sort of money away.


The outcome?

It is getting harder and harder by the day to see a breakout in the NB segment.


My :twocents:

We will see recognisable versions of the current 320neo family and the current 737MAX family way, way into the 2030s.

cheers

*DISCLAIMER: BigJku may/may not own all of this but never mind - all is meant in a good spirit! :smile:
Billy
 
mandala499
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:56 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
A317neo as counterpart to e190, A318neo, A319neo, A320neo, a321neo and a322neo.

A317NEO? A318NEO? A319NEO?
Well, let's not forget Airbus is now selling A220-100 and A220-300... which is A317 and A319 territory... if they see a need then they'll do A220-200.

Why do a rewing when you already got a competing replacement capitulating that is being sold under your brand?

GalebG4 wrote:
What do you think airbus could do with a320 family?

Get an A322NEO to compete with MAX10...

But then, the 321neo/Max9 is probably the largest that'll sell in huge numbers. Anything above that, we're stretching the limits of a single aisle aircraft in multiple aspects.

Rewinging the 320family is an option if Airbus wants to go cheap to compete with the 737 replacement.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:01 pm

I do not think we will see a rewinged A320 and I think that the A320neo will be produced for many years to come. We will see a move away from hydraulic to elctro-hydraulic actuators, and some more aerodynamic changes, but the wing will stay at its is. It is a very effective design with again very effective but simple high lift devices.

It is a very different case with the A321 IMO. While the wing on the A321 is perfect capable for short to medium haul, it reaches it limit when the A321 is used over longer distances. It is small in regards to the MTOW, 97t now and over 100t soon, leading to a high wing loading, and has not enough space to store fuel.
I can well imagine to see a new wing on the A321, perhaps with an optional stretch of the fuselage. It does not have to be a completely new wing out of CFRP, I could also imagine a extension of the current design with a span slightly under 52 m and a high aspect ratio.

The main point is, that both the A320 and A321 are selling like hot cakes as it is, outpacing the competition, so that Airbus has no short term need to change anything.
 
ewt340
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:13 pm

Also, let's not forget, Airbus is currently working on increased range for A321XLR. They try to get the plane to fly up to 4,700nm in few upcoming years with MTOW increase to 100t. This is being done without any major change to the wings area and extra fuel capacity.

I could see Airbus goes to 5,000nm for A321XLR in mid-2020 with minor modifications.

A318, A319 and A320 capacities are too small for long flights to be profitable. A321 is where the money lies. So to make major changes in the wings of those small planes wouldn't be beneficial for airlines.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:39 pm

I think posters are looking at this the wrong way round. It’s not that the A32x can’t be re-winged, the real question is what a new wing is bolted to.
What aero, construction and weight advantages can a new carbon panel/barrel construction fuselage bring Vs bolting a new wing/tailplane/engine to the current structure. How does this impact the weight/fuel burn/payload? Most importantly, what are Boeing doing?

If an A320 based A321XLRnneo or “A322” can be competitive with a “797” it would be a lot cheaper and quicker to develop - apparently some work is already done if rumours are to be believed.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:56 pm

Biggest question with airbus family is what makes economic sense?
A320xlr would be nice to see but probably would not make sense, stretched version of a320neo, a320,5 neo xlr with 200 seats would probably make more sense for ulcc players, since Boeing is making NMA. Nobody really knows what is NMA going to be, but shortened version can be 737 max 8 replacement so airbus must be cautious not to make same mistake as it did with a330 and 787. YOU MUST BE IDIOT NOT TO THINK THAT BOEING IS GOING TO MAKE SAME TYPE OF THE AIRCRAFT FOR 60 YEARS, NMA MUST BE REPLACEMENT in 2027-2030.
 
smartplane
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:23 pm

The wing box and wing teams have a joint skunk works operation in Southern France. Could this be where some key design staff from the UK are currently? A new wing option for the A321 or A350? An A322? Surely not for the A380?
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:45 am

brindabella wrote:

The huge (and increasing) pressure on both AB and BA to increase and increase and increase their NB production rates has 3 consequences:

2) it will get even harder for EITHER AB or BA to break away and go to another generation. The other party will immediately swoop in, take (basically) all of the (MASSIVE) market and feast on the profits. The OEM which breaks ranks will face years of pain b4 it can get it's new product out - to be faced by the other which immediately discounts massively (which will be very very easy and basically painless).



I don't think this is true. Airbus was able to transition from the A320 to the A320neo without any pause in production. Same for A330 -> A330neo. Same for the 777->777X. Same for the 737->737MAX.

So I'm quite sure Airbus could go from a 320-oldwing to 320-newwing without a production pause.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:46 am

flee wrote:
If we look at how the B737 evolved over the decades, one can safely assume that after the NEO, Airbus will have to seriously consider improving the efficiency and weight of the A320 family wing.

However, there is no need to rush this as the A320Neo is still new in the market and production is still ramping up. Perhaps a carbon wing project can target 2025 as its EIS. In two or three years, Airbus will have a better idea as to how to optimise this wing. By then, there may be a need for a single class 250-270 seat A322 and the A320 might be the smallest member of the family.


Probably the best way to improve the performance of this hypothetical new wing would be to increase the span. But the airports gates limit this to the current span; there is no room for growth.

Span increase is not the only possibility .... just the best.

FOLDING WINGTIPS!!!!!
 
travelhound
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:45 am

From where I sit Airbus will re-wing the A320 (or bring in a new model) when Boeing decide to replace the 737. Problem is, if Boeing develop the MOM for the top end of the 737 replacement market the lower end could be a plane in the CS300 size category.

If this is the case, a re-wing of the A320 becomes a moot point. The aircraft would be obsoleted by two aircraft that cater for the full spread of the NB (non-regional) market.

I suspect our eyes are yet to be opened on what the market will look like in ten years time.
 
Strato2
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:46 am

travelhound wrote:
If this is the case, a re-wing of the A320 becomes a moot point. The aircraft would be obsoleted by two aircraft that cater for the full spread of the NB (non-regional) market.


What super duper technology do you think Boeing can put in it's new aircraft that Airbus could not reasonably counter with a rewinged/engined A320? The A320 itself was state of the art clean sheet back in the day and yet the 737 is still here.
 
brindabella
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:00 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
brindabella wrote:

The huge (and increasing) pressure on both AB and BA to increase and increase and increase their NB production rates has 3 consequences:

2) it will get even harder for EITHER AB or BA to break away and go to another generation. The other party will immediately swoop in, take (basically) all of the (MASSIVE) market and feast on the profits. The OEM which breaks ranks will face years of pain b4 it can get it's new product out - to be faced by the other which immediately discounts massively (which will be very very easy and basically painless).



I don't think this is true. Airbus was able to transition from the A320 to the A320neo without any pause in production. Same for A330 -> A330neo. Same for the 777->777X. Same for the 737->737MAX.

So I'm quite sure Airbus could go from a 320-oldwing to 320-newwing without a production pause.


Not the transition difficulties - at least technically.

But rather trying to manage your own customer-base when each customer decides at the same moment that they have fallen out of love with the NB as already ordered and now wants the wonderful new whizz-bang. Desperately.
Additionally, meantime you have ramped-up to 70 or more frames a Month and have ironclad contracts with a constellation of parts-suppliers to take ALL their contracted products at a high rate for years and years to come … or else.
And to keep a steady (but steadily reducing) flow of orders for the existing frame, you find yourself having to go very cheap. (777W, EG).

Let's say for argument's sake it was BA which, some time in the future, is contemplating the big jump.One solution would be to offer the NSA/whatever at relatively high prices to discourage the existing customers from rushing out of the current MAX queue and onto the NSA queue ...

cheers
Billy
 
travelhound
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:11 pm

Strato2 wrote:
travelhound wrote:
If this is the case, a re-wing of the A320 becomes a moot point. The aircraft would be obsoleted by two aircraft that cater for the full spread of the NB (non-regional) market.


What super duper technology do you think Boeing can put in it's new aircraft that Airbus could not reasonably counter with a rewinged/engined A320? The A320 itself was state of the art clean sheet back in the day and yet the 737 is still here.


Even though the C-series is smaller than the A320NEO it has similar CASM economics. If we consider they both use the PW geared turbo fan, the economics must come from other areas of the aircraft. Wing, yes! Flight control systems, electric hardware, optimised aero, etc also yes!

Back in 2010 when Boeing were still planning a new wide body, they were quoting 20% better economics over the 737NG. They are only claiming 14% with the MAX.

Again, this suggests other systems would allows for an additional 50% efficiency over advancement in engine technology. I'd suggest, just optimising an aircraft for a set mission profile could be worth 5% alone.

AJ from QANTAS recently stated the airline is considering replacement of their 737NG fleet with a combination of MOM and C-Series sized aircraft. If this is correct, in essence they would be vacating the airline size segment where the 737 & A320 sit.

If this becomes a trend and followed by other airlines, the selection criteria for new aircraft will revolve around rmultiple sets of criteria including right sizing rather than today's environment where two aircraft in the same size category are simply pitched against each other on price.

For instance, for LCC's operating in Asia, the CS300 / CS500 combination could be a far more formidable combination than the A320 / A321 combination. It would essentially allow them to serve more markets, that are currently uneconomic / sub-optimal with the larger aircraft.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:26 pm

Wing structure is more complex and challenging to design than fuselage stretches. I think people are underestimating the complexity with aerodynamic analysis, resizing flight controls and manufacturing complexity. Fuselage stretches are simple and easy compared to redesigning the wing. There is a reason why wing design doesn’t change other than minor strengthening.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:09 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month.


Part of that is because they really knocked the wing out of the park when they first designed it.

With an all-new CFRP wing with, say, folding tips, drooping ailerons, differential flaps, and maybe a few other bells and whistles, perhaps they could squeeze out as much as 10% better fuel burn? And we're talking about a cost of EU1Bn minimum for this project. It makes sense to put all these bells and whistles on a new type, because you have to design it from a clean sheet, anyway, but for an existing type, it's a massive investment for a relatively small return. And it's not as if this would sell them more A320s.
-Doc Lightning-

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1989worstyear
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:18 am

DocLightning wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month.


Part of that is because they really knocked the wing out of the park when they first designed it.

With an all-new CFRP wing with, say, folding tips, drooping ailerons, differential flaps, and maybe a few other bells and whistles, perhaps they could squeeze out as much as 10% better fuel burn? And we're talking about a cost of EU1Bn minimum for this project. It makes sense to put all these bells and whistles on a new type, because you have to design it from a clean sheet, anyway, but for an existing type, it's a massive investment for a relatively small return. And it's not as if this would sell them more A320s.



In other words - NB wing design peaked in 1988.

Looks like the LSD craze in Europe around that time took away too many brain cells from future aerospace engineers :rotfl:

Maybe hip hop culture should have stayed in the US.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:43 am

1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - NB wing design peaked in 1988.


I didn't say that. I said that there is no compelling reason to redesign it until an entirely new type is introduced.
-Doc Lightning-

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Okcflyer
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:02 am

1989worstyear wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month.


Part of that is because they really knocked the wing out of the park when they first designed it.

With an all-new CFRP wing with, say, folding tips, drooping ailerons, differential flaps, and maybe a few other bells and whistles, perhaps they could squeeze out as much as 10% better fuel burn? And we're talking about a cost of EU1Bn minimum for this project. It makes sense to put all these bells and whistles on a new type, because you have to design it from a clean sheet, anyway, but for an existing type, it's a massive investment for a relatively small return. And it's not as if this would sell them more A320s.



In other words - NB wing design peaked in 1988.


In a practical and commercial sense it has. A new wing will probably cost 2-3x what the neo engine upgrades did with about 1/3 of the efficiency return.

The reality is vast majority of NB trips are less than 1500nm.

Optimize a wing for 2500 to 3000nm and you’re going to need group 4 gates and you’ll give up most of your efficiency gains back on the more common short routes. 500nm trips may even less fuel efficient compared to current generation craft.For long routes, it’ll approach 10% net gain but these aren’t common enough to cover for the short haul and gate density issues.

Optimize a wing for 1500nm and group 3 gates, the improvement is likely in the 5% range, at best 7% for the longer range routes. For the $2B it will likely cost, it’s just not commercially viable for that level of return. It’s better to spend 500 million on weight optimization and other localized drag improvements (sharklets) for half of the return. This is what both companies have been doing.

As widebodies spend an enrormous percentage of their time in cruise, wing improvements tally quick. Such is usually not the case for narrows.

That said, the IGW A321s are probably approaching the point where additional wing tweaks are needed, even if the specific drag slightly increases in lower weight phases of flight. Small trailing edge extensions or additional wing tip area and improvements.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:29 am

1989worstyear wrote:

The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month.


Incorrect. Airbus changed the wing by adding double slotted flaps when they developed the A321. The A320 and A321 wings are not the same.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:41 am

DocLightning wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - NB wing design peaked in 1988.


I didn't say that. I said that there is no compelling reason to redesign it until an entirely new type is introduced.


But why not develop a new type based on the same cross section? Boeing did that several times. The 707 upper fuselage became the basis for the 727 with a different lower lobe. The 727 fuselage cross section became the base for the 737. It also became the basis for the 757. This allowed commonality in the interior fittings.

Even Airbus has recycled a cross section to create a new type. The original A300 cross section was mated to new wings and fly by wire avionics systems to make the A340 and A330.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:51 am

tullamarine wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
With not so successful a380 project, a330 not selling well and a220 as new family member I personally don’t think Airbus probably won’t do anything i post in this topic. Since Ryanair showed us that one type makes a lot of economic sense, it would be nice if all airbus a320 family members have it’s own carbon wing so all of the versions are most efficient in its own sector.
A317neo as counterpart to e190, A318neo, A319neo, A320neo, a321neo and a322neo.
Same type of the aircraft with 7 different wings and one type of motor that can fit all the versions.
This idea probably doesn’t make economic sense but since e175 showed us that different versions of wings makes sense, it seems that airbus went in wrong direction. What do you think airbus could do with a320 family?

A shortened A319 makes no sense. The A318 shows that such a plane is just too heavy. Even if you gave it a new wing, which is a massively expensive undertaking anyway, it would still be too heavy and offer nothing that the A220 doesn't do anyway.

Rewinging the A320 series makes sense but only to upsize the A321 to a A322 which, if it could be developed at a reasonable price, would really mess with Boeing's plans for the 797.

Personally I think it would be wise for Airbus to invest in the A350-1100 and looking at the true succesor for the A330 for the 2025-2030 period.

I understand the A350-1100 and don't disagree though it would depend what sort of range you can get out of it and whether the A35J-ULR and the A35J is enough anyway. If the A350-1100 needs a new wing, the economics become very difficult.

I'm not so sure on a A330 replacement unless it is a regional A350 with further weight reductions which is not easy given a new wing for such a plane won't add up financially. A whole new type which really would only compete with the 789 will never make sense (788 is already in trouble and a 797 or A322 will probably kill it off). Once again, rewinging the A321 is a better way to bridge the existing gap.

Boeing is already building composite wings so Airbus cannot be that far behind. They may already have them in development for all we know. But! It will take more than just a new wing. The A320 series is already long in the tooth. Airbus needs an updated replacement..
 
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flee
Posts: 1005
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:23 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Boeing is already building composite wings so Airbus cannot be that far behind.

Airbus already has CFRP wings flying on the A350.
 
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OA940
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Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:54 am

A321neo is doing incredibly as well. With the A220 covering up to A319 size I don't see any need to bring back the A318, especially considering the not-so-great sales of the A319neo.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:40 am

1989worstyear wrote:
The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month. I think (hope) after regulators start really piling on carbon taxes, Airbus will be forced to get their act together and finally bring the design to 21st Century standards (and get Boeing to put the 737 out to pasture).

Boeings abortive NSA withered on the wine because relative to engine advances available airframe advances are microscopic.
And for that minor gain Boeing couldn't even conjure up a near term path on how to manufacture those for reasonable cost.

A very good example is the performance runoff between super duper 787 and the "ancient, barely better than wright flyer :-)" A330.
When all is said and done ( Like 251t MTOW for A330, same basic engine ) the performance delta is (very) small single digits.

A320 and A330/340 wings are consecutive strongly related uncompromised designs.
NG wing is newer but apparently a rather compromised upgrade from the Jurassic/Classic
Murphy is an optimist
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:55 am

WIederling wrote:
A320 and A330/340 wings are consecutive strongly related uncompromised designs.
NG wing is newer but apparently a rather compromised upgrade from the Jurassic/Classic


I suggest checking the facts before you make statements like that. The A330 wing has a wingbox designed for the higher weight 275t A340 and has provisions for the electrical and fuel systems for the outer engines that don’t exist. There certainly are some compromises. Few designs aren’t compromised. The A321 needed double slotted flaps compared to the basic A320 for example, which adds weight and could be considered a compromise.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8777
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
With not so successful a380 project, a330 not selling well and a220 as new family member I personally don’t think Airbus probably won’t do anything i post in this topic. Since Ryanair showed us that one type makes a lot of economic sense, it would be nice if all airbus a320 family members have it’s own carbon wing so all of the versions are most efficient in its own sector.
A317neo as counterpart to e190, A318neo, A319neo, A320neo, a321neo and a322neo.
Same type of the aircraft with 7 different wings and one type of motor that can fit all the versions.
This idea probably doesn’t make economic sense but since e175 showed us that different versions of wings makes sense, it seems that airbus went in wrong direction. What do you think airbus could do with a320 family?

A shortened A319 makes no sense. The A318 shows that such a plane is just too heavy. Even if you gave it a new wing, which is a massively expensive undertaking anyway, it would still be too heavy and offer nothing that the A220 doesn't do anyway.

Rewinging the A320 series makes sense but only to upsize the A321 to a A322 which, if it could be developed at a reasonable price, would really mess with Boeing's plans for the 797.

Personally I think it would be wise for Airbus to invest in the A350-1100 and looking at the true succesor for the A330 for the 2025-2030 period.

I understand the A350-1100 and don't disagree though it would depend what sort of range you can get out of it and whether the A35J-ULR and the A35J is enough anyway. If the A350-1100 needs a new wing, the economics become very difficult.

I'm not so sure on a A330 replacement unless it is a regional A350 with further weight reductions which is not easy given a new wing for such a plane won't add up financially. A whole new type which really would only compete with the 789 will never make sense (788 is already in trouble and a 797 or A322 will probably kill it off). Once again, rewinging the A321 is a better way to bridge the existing gap.

Boeing is already building composite wings so Airbus cannot be that far behind. They may already have them in development for all we know. But! It will take more than just a new wing. The A320 series is already long in the tooth. Airbus needs an updated replacement..


Airbus does build the composite wings for the A400M and A350. The composite wings for the 787 are build in Japan. The new wing factory at Boeing for the 777x wings is to a big part a copy of the Airbus wing factory for the A350. So I would rather talk about that Boeing does not seem to far behind Airbus.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:25 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
A320 and A330/340 wings are consecutive strongly related uncompromised designs.
NG wing is newer but apparently a rather compromised upgrade from the Jurassic/Classic


I suggest checking the facts before you make statements like that.

I have. :-)

Newbiepilot wrote:
The A330 wing has a wingbox designed for the higher weight 275t A340 and has provisions for the electrical and fuel systems for the outer engines that don’t exist. There certainly are some compromises. Few designs aren’t compromised. The A321 needed double slotted flaps compared to the basic A320 for example, which adds weight and could be considered a compromise.


Bending moment for the A340 wingbox is very close to A330 loads due to the load alleviation from the outboard engines on the A340.

Taking the same wing and only changing the flap arrangement for the higher MTOW type seems to be a rather elegant solution.
NG wing is fully double slotted for the full range of types ( that do not reach A321 MTOW at all )

And my basic tenet of not much change ( american english: no quantum leaps )
in state of the art aero design absolutely stands.
Murphy is an optimist
 
DartHerald
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:08 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:54 am

My take is that next in line after the A321XLR will be the stretched A322 to compete in the bigger sized MoM arena, and at that point we'll see a new composite wing and wingbox (which we know Airbus are workhg on)
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 pm

WIederling wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
The wing hasn't changed in 30 years, as of this month. I think (hope) after regulators start really piling on carbon taxes, Airbus will be forced to get their act together and finally bring the design to 21st Century standards (and get Boeing to put the 737 out to pasture).

Boeings abortive NSA withered on the wine because relative to engine advances available airframe advances are microscopic.
And for that minor gain Boeing couldn't even conjure up a near term path on how to manufacture those for reasonable cost.

A very good example is the performance runoff between super duper 787 and the "ancient, barely better than wright flyer :-)" A330.
When all is said and done ( Like 251t MTOW for A330, same basic engine ) the performance delta is (very) small single digits.

A320 and A330/340 wings are consecutive strongly related uncompromised designs.
NG wing is newer but apparently a rather compromised upgrade from the Jurassic/Classic


In other words - we've peaked 30 years ago... :worried:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:29 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - we've peaked 30 years ago... :worried:


Innovation rate has peaked. Not advance and maturity.

If you look at supercritical wing design ( whatever name you use )
the theoretical background was done in the 40ties.

The 50/60ties saw its communicated reinvention in the US.
you still see detail advances but they are small, incremental not large step changes.

Things will change with the advent of real laminar flow designs. That could? will be
the next s-curve in advances.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
caoimhin
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:30 am

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:51 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
A shortened A319 makes no sense. The A318 shows that such a plane is just too heavy. Even if you gave it a new wing, which is a massively expensive undertaking anyway, it would still be too heavy and offer nothing that the A220 doesn't do anyway.

Rewinging the A320 series makes sense but only to upsize the A321 to a A322 which, if it could be developed at a reasonable price, would really mess with Boeing's plans for the 797.


I understand the A350-1100 and don't disagree though it would depend what sort of range you can get out of it and whether the A35J-ULR and the A35J is enough anyway. If the A350-1100 needs a new wing, the economics become very difficult.

I'm not so sure on a A330 replacement unless it is a regional A350 with further weight reductions which is not easy given a new wing for such a plane won't add up financially. A whole new type which really would only compete with the 789 will never make sense (788 is already in trouble and a 797 or A322 will probably kill it off). Once again, rewinging the A321 is a better way to bridge the existing gap.

Boeing is already building composite wings so Airbus cannot be that far behind. They may already have them in development for all we know. But! It will take more than just a new wing. The A320 series is already long in the tooth. Airbus needs an updated replacement..


Airbus does build the composite wings for the A400M and A350. The composite wings for the 787 are build in Japan. The new wing factory at Boeing for the 777x wings is to a big part a copy of the Airbus wing factory for the A350. So I would rather talk about that Boeing does not seem to far behind Airbus.


Could you substantiate that claim (that Boeing are “copying” the Airbus wing factory) with a source? This is not something I’ve heard before, and I’d be curious to read more.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8777
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:59 pm

caoimhin wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Boeing is already building composite wings so Airbus cannot be that far behind. They may already have them in development for all we know. But! It will take more than just a new wing. The A320 series is already long in the tooth. Airbus needs an updated replacement..


Airbus does build the composite wings for the A400M and A350. The composite wings for the 787 are build in Japan. The new wing factory at Boeing for the 777x wings is to a big part a copy of the Airbus wing factory for the A350. So I would rather talk about that Boeing does not seem to far behind Airbus.


Could you substantiate that claim (that Boeing are “copying” the Airbus wing factory) with a source? This is not something I’ve heard before, and I’d be curious to read more.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... echnology/

You have to read the whole article.
 
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caoimhin
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:30 am

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:34 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
caoimhin wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Airbus does build the composite wings for the A400M and A350. The composite wings for the 787 are build in Japan. The new wing factory at Boeing for the 777x wings is to a big part a copy of the Airbus wing factory for the A350. So I would rather talk about that Boeing does not seem to far behind Airbus.


Could you substantiate that claim (that Boeing are “copying” the Airbus wing factory) with a source? This is not something I’ve heard before, and I’d be curious to read more.



https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... echnology/

You have to read the whole article.


Okay—but just to clarify, I read this as saying there are likely to be similarities and that two suppliers also supply components or machinery used on the A350, not that the Boeing factory is a “copy” as you stated.

And that’s not to take away from what Airbus have done in Broughton. I would expect that these two corporations routinely learn from watching each other.

Regardless, thank you for the link.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8777
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:49 pm

caoimhin wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
caoimhin wrote:

Could you substantiate that claim (that Boeing are “copying” the Airbus wing factory) with a source? This is not something I’ve heard before, and I’d be curious to read more.



https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... echnology/

You have to read the whole article.


Okay—but just to clarify, I read this as saying there are likely to be similarities and that two suppliers also supply components or machinery used on the A350, not that the Boeing factory is a “copy” as you stated.

And that’s not to take away from what Airbus have done in Broughton. I would expect that these two corporations routinely learn from watching each other.

Regardless, thank you for the link.


You can take it as you want. Boeing will use the same European build equipment to build its wings. I am sure the other way round you would call it copy, at least the process. The main difference is that Boeing builds the whole wing and its parts at the same place. Airbus is manufacturing the parts all over Europe. But when you look at the singele steps you see the similarities.
My comment was to the post claiming that Airbus was perhaps catching up to Boeing in building composite wings. Airbus has been building composite wings for a while, Boeing is starting to do it.

Just for your information. The new riveting robots Boeing uses to build there 777x fuselage, has been used at Airbus for a while to build the A330 fuselage. The new crawling riveting robots to join the end, middle and forward fuselage of the 777x, has been used at Airbus since the A380 is produced.

My claim is that Airbus has outpaced Boeing in automation for quite a while and Boeing is now catching up.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:28 pm

I believe the next Design will be clean sheet. I believe savings will not only be gained by more efficient engines, wing design and composite Materials, but very likely also on other fields:

1. Modern integreated digital maintenance architecture with less checks and iot based maintenance procedures.
2. Streamlined production process (I guess there is lots of potential in modern automatised production processes reducing costs.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:58 pm

WIederling wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - we've peaked 30 years ago... :worried:


Innovation rate has peaked. Not advance and maturity.

If you look at supercritical wing design ( whatever name you use )
the theoretical background was done in the 40ties.

The 50/60ties saw its communicated reinvention in the US.
you still see detail advances but they are small, incremental not large step changes.

Things will change with the advent of real laminar flow designs. That could? will be
the next s-curve in advances.


How does that explain that the 757/767 wings are considered to be "ancient, 70s/80s obsolete crap", but the 30 year old A320-200 wing is "state of the art, 21st Century technology etc..."

There was clearly a quantum leap going from 1986 to the end of 1988 that allowed Airbus to certify the A320-200, nothing us Gen X or Y engineers have been able to accomplish (too much emphasis on drugs and disgusting rap culture maybe)?

Shouldn't we put the final s-curve right smack in the middle of 1987 then? Going from the 757/767 to the A320 was like going from a DC-7 to a DC-8 from what I hear.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:22 pm

WIederling wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - we've peaked 30 years ago... :worried:


Innovation rate has peaked. Not advance and maturity.

If you look at supercritical wing design ( whatever name you use )
the theoretical background was done in the 40ties.

The 50/60ties saw its communicated reinvention in the US.
you still see detail advances but they are small, incremental not large step changes.

Things will change with the advent of real laminar flow designs. That could? will be
the next s-curve in advances.


Are you implying that the a320 wing has thesame supercritical elements found on the a350?

This 1988 innovation peak is silly nonsense.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3639
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:24 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
WIederling wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - we've peaked 30 years ago... :worried:


Innovation rate has peaked. Not advance and maturity.

If you look at supercritical wing design ( whatever name you use )
the theoretical background was done in the 40ties.

The 50/60ties saw its communicated reinvention in the US.
you still see detail advances but they are small, incremental not large step changes.

Things will change with the advent of real laminar flow designs. That could? will be
the next s-curve in advances.


How does that explain that the 757/767 wings are considered to be "ancient, 70s/80s obsolete crap", but the 30 year old A320-200 wing is "state of the art, 21st Century technology etc..."

There was clearly a quantum leap going from 1986 to the end of 1988 that allowed Airbus to certify the A320-200, nothing us Gen X or Y engineers have been able to accomplish (too much emphasis on drugs and disgusting rap culture maybe)?

Shouldn't we put the final s-curve right smack in the middle of 1987 then? Going from the 757/767 to the A320 was like going from a DC-7 to a DC-8 from what I hear.


The A320 wing is not state of the art depending on how you define it, but is good enough to not justify the cost of redesign

Please explain to me, with sources other than comments about drug use, about how the super critical airfoil, load alleviation and variable camber are equivalent to the 787 and a350. You may find articles about load alleviation and super critical design on the A320, but are they as advanced as on the newer planes?
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:13 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Newbiepilot wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Innovation rate has peaked. Not advance and maturity.

If you look at supercritical wing design ( whatever name you use )
the theoretical background was done in the 40ties.

The 50/60ties saw its communicated reinvention in the US.
you still see detail advances but they are small, incremental not large step changes.

Things will change with the advent of real laminar flow designs. That could? will be
the next s-curve in advances.


How does that explain that the 757/767 wings are considered to be "ancient, 70s/80s obsolete crap", but the 30 year old A320-200 wing is "state of the art, 21st Century technology etc..."

There was clearly a quantum leap going from 1986 to the end of 1988 that allowed Airbus to certify the A320-200, nothing us Gen X or Y engineers have been able to accomplish (too much emphasis on drugs and disgusting rap culture maybe)?

Shouldn't we put the final s-curve right smack in the middle of 1987 then? Going from the 757/767 to the A320 was like going from a DC-7 to a DC-8 from what I hear.


The A320 wing is not state of the art depending on how you define it, but is good enough to not justify the cost of redesign

Please explain to me, with sources other than comments about drug use, about how the super critical airfoil, load alleviation and variable camber are equivalent to the 787 and a350. You may find articles about load alleviation and super critical design on the A320, but are they as advanced as on the newer planes?


I think you answered your own question.

The 2010's WB's are irrelevant. The fact that a design can remain the same for three decades without needing significant updates implies we've peaked, especially considering the two proceeding then "state-of-the-art" designs at the time became obsolete in 1999.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8777
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:23 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
In other words - we've peaked 30 years ago... :worried:


Innovation rate has peaked. Not advance and maturity.

If you look at supercritical wing design ( whatever name you use )
the theoretical background was done in the 40ties.

The 50/60ties saw its communicated reinvention in the US.
you still see detail advances but they are small, incremental not large step changes.

Things will change with the advent of real laminar flow designs. That could? will be
the next s-curve in advances.


Are you implying that the a320 wing has thesame supercritical elements found on the a350?

This 1988 innovation peak is silly nonsense.


The A300 wing was already a supercritcal wing and very advanced. I think we can not go just by years of production. I would for example not agree that the 737NG wing is more advanced than the A320 wing. Airbus has a slightly smaller wing, with simpler design of the high lift devices, that is as or more effective than the slightly bigger wing on the 737NG.
 
musman9853
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:53 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
Biggest question with airbus family is what makes economic sense?
A320xlr would be nice to see but probably would not make sense, stretched version of a320neo, a320,5 neo xlr with 200 seats would probably make more sense for ulcc players, since Boeing is making NMA. Nobody really knows what is NMA going to be, but shortened version can be 737 max 8 replacement so airbus must be cautious not to make same mistake as it did with a330 and 787. YOU MUST BE IDIOT NOT TO THINK THAT BOEING IS GOING TO MAKE SAME TYPE OF THE AIRCRAFT FOR 60 YEARS, NMA MUST BE REPLACEMENT in 2027-2030.



the nma specs have been all but confirmed. the nma-6 will have 225 seats and fly 5k nm, and the nma-7 will seat 265 and fly 4.5k nm.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1249
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Rewinged a320 family

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:54 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
I think posters are looking at this the wrong way round. It’s not that the A32x can’t be re-winged, the real question is what a new wing is bolted to.
What aero, construction and weight advantages can a new carbon panel/barrel construction fuselage bring Vs bolting a new wing/tailplane/engine to the current structure. How does this impact the weight/fuel burn/payload? Most importantly, what are Boeing doing?

If an A320 based A321XLRnneo or “A322” can be competitive with a “797” it would be a lot cheaper and quicker to develop - apparently some work is already done if rumours are to be believed.

The consensus seems to be that CFRP fuselages are beneficial for widebody fuselages, but of less benefit to smaller aircraft. Bombardier considered it for the CSeries, but ultimately went for Al–Li instead. Part of the argument against CFRP is the greater risk of damage from ground vehicles that a NB experiences versus a WB; more frequent loading/unloading (with pressure for quick turnarounds), and being closer to the ground.

To make matters worse, there is not that much improvement in weight between regular aluminum alloys and Al-Li; around 5% lighter, I think. Over a fuselage as small as an A320 family aircraft, this is not a significant number.

As to weight savings in the structure, the A320 already contains many parts made from AFRP, GFRP, and CFRP.

I feel like we're in a waiting game right now. With current technology/materials/engineering, it doesn't seem like there is much to be done to improve the current A320 where the benefit outweighs the cost. We're waiting for technologies like laminar flow to mature. For now, I don't see a rewing (or a new fuselage) coming for the A320 family.

I used to imagine an A322 with a new wing… and as a response to a future Boeing, this kind of things could possibly happen. But, for now, it's not needed, and the cost does not justify the benefit.

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