entdoc
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LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:09 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/el-al-div ... bat-scare/

poor LY. their flights from NY get delayed due to weather in NY
for fear that the planes would land at TLV after the start of the Sabbath (18 min prior to sunset) on Friday
a handful of "religious" hooligans caused a scene on two flights.
per the Hebrew reports they may have even physically accosted cabin crew.

one plane landed at ATH and offloaded the hooligans to a hotel
other pax were ferried on an Israir flight to TLV
the LY plane flew to TLV empty (?relief crew)(why not just fly the pax with new crew instead of expense for second plane?)

the second plane was to have landed at FCO but per Hebrew reports due to a sick passenger
accompanied by an MD that one continued to TLV (supposedly the LY rabbi gave an OK
as it involved a life threatening situation in which cases one is allowed to violate the Sabbath)

these crazy so called religious are willing to physically accost crew (probably including some women) for fear of sabbath desecration
they forget that ordinarily they will not even talk to female crew.
and forget even more the Jewish precept that insulting a fellow human in public is a far greater sin.
(an old midrash states "it is better to fling oneself into a furnace than insult his fellow man in public")

I wonder why LY even allowed them on the plane in NY
and if they are so religious they themselves never should have boarded in NY

per latest reports police charges are being filed.
they should be prosecuted and life time banned from ANY airline world wide
 
SCQ83
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:22 pm

But would the plane diverted to ATH arrive before or after Sabbath? Also, even if it arrives at the limit of Sabbath, how would those Haredim leave TLV if it is already Sabbath? For many of them heading to Jerusalem, Judea or Samaria, they need at least 2-3 hours from the plane to arrive safely into that area.
 
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thekorean
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:27 pm

Does any other israeli airlines operate on Sabbath? El Al needs to be privatized.
 
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chepos
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:05 pm

They should jail the nuts that caused the scene onboard and they should pay a hefty fine for the diversion.
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LH748
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:13 pm

It's so sad when religion does not only affect the people that want to follow it but interferes with the lives of others.
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STLflyer
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:26 pm

If your religion prevents you from flying during the Sabbath, maybe you shouldn't book a flight that gets you to your destination within 3 hours of the Sabbath given how unpredictable air travel can be.

It's ridiculous that El Al keeps caving into these zealots. If they're being belligerent and violent towards crew, they should've been restrained and handed off the the police at TLV or diversion airport, not put up in a hotel to wait until after Shabbat. Stop giving them special treatment. If that had been anyone else, or any other airline, you go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
 
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lydh
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:59 pm

hmm i wonder if you can go to jail on the Sabbath...
 
DDR
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:19 pm

STLflyer wrote:
If your religion prevents you from flying during the Sabbath, maybe you shouldn't book a flight that gets you to your destination within 3 hours of the Sabbath given how unpredictable air travel can be.

It's ridiculous that El Al keeps caving into these zealots. If they're being belligerent and violent towards crew, they should've been restrained and handed off the the police at TLV or diversion airport, not put up in a hotel to wait until after Shabbat. Stop giving them special treatment. If that had been anyone else, or any other airline, you go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.


Very well thought out and articulated post. El Al should start a list and ban the religious zealots. After awhile I bet others would calm down and behave on the flights.
 
Cunard
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:21 am

thekorean wrote:
Does any other israeli airlines operate on Sabbath? El Al needs to be privatized.


EI AI is more or less privatized and has been since 2005 with 56% of the company owned by investors with the Israeli Government having the remaining amount for obvious reasons although there were plans to limit this and allow more outside investment in the airline.

All Israeli airlines and the majority of businesses as well as government bodies close on the Sabbath it's not just EI AI that does so, it's taken very seriously in Israel.
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:36 am

El Al is a state-owned entity whose sole purpose for being is to fly people to and from Israel. It will never be a connecting carrier like DXB or DOH; nor will it ever be profitable being dormant one day per week. The religious parties insistence on any support by them in a coalition government be predicated on the idea that El Al must follow these strict rules has been around and publicly stated since the formation of the airline long ago. And with that comes the general knowledge by,many that bad behavior, disguised as religious devotion, will be tolerated and given into no matter how ludicrous it is to the rest of us.

This, however, is entirely a matter between Israel and its citizens. There are a multitude of options getting to and from Israel, and none of them ever have these issues. Caveat emptor: be aware these kinds of incidents can happen, and in this case, it will continue to happen for a very long time.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:37 am

Cunard wrote:
thekorean wrote:
Does any other israeli airlines operate on Sabbath? El Al needs to be privatized.


EI AI is more or less privatized and has been since 2005 with 56% of the company owned by investors with the Israeli Government having the remaining amount for obvious reasons although there were plans to limit this and allow more outside investment in the airline.

All Israeli airlines and the majority of businesses as well as government bodies close on the Sabbath it's not just EI AI that does so, it's taken very seriously in Israel.


Not only that, but there are a lot of customers who specifically choose El Al over foreign carriers because El Al will not fly on the Sabbath.
 
DaveFly
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:44 am

Oh, I’m opening a can of worms here! So I’ll try to keep the focus on aviation and away from politics.

My daughter and her family live in Israel. Like the majority in Israel, they’re secular, don’t participate in organized religion, and want nothing to do with settlements and territories.

But because of Israel’s fragmented parliamentary system and small parties, the Haredim have political influence way out of proportion to their population. They don’t serve in the army, they don’t pay taxes, but they’re mostly on welfare and demand ever-increasing funds for their schools. If the current government wants to remain in power, they have to cave in to the demands.

I’ve flown many airlines to Israel. The Haredim wouldn’t dare pull any crap, like changing seats because of gender, on Delta or United. They’d be thrown off on their earlocks. But they can get away with anything on El Al.

If you’re familiar with TLV, they did a major runway/taxiway realignment a few years ago. The taxi to runway 26 was long and circuitous. Not anymore! There’s a new taxiway from Terminal 3 to runway 26. I was on an El Al flight last year where the Haredim were kicking up a ruckus about their seats. They refused to be seated even though we were already on the taxiway (Delta/United would’ve already thrown them off). The FAs begged and pleaded. Then the captain revved the engines on that new taxiway, slammed on the brakes, and all standees went rolling in the aisles! A great moment. Everyone else cheered.
Last edited by DaveFly on Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cunard
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:24 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
El Al is a state-owned entity whose sole purpose for being is to fly people to and from Israel. It will never be a connecting carrier like DXB or DOH; nor will it ever be profitable being dormant one day per week. The religious parties insistence on any support by them in a coalition government be predicated on the idea that El Al must follow these strict rules has been around and publicly stated since the formation of the airline long ago. And with that comes the general knowledge by,many that bad behavior, disguised as religious devotion, will be tolerated and given into no matter how ludicrous it is to the rest of us.

This, however, is entirely a matter between Israel and its citizens. There are a multitude of options getting to and from Israel, and none of them ever have these issues. Caveat emptor: be aware these kinds of incidents can happen, and in this case, it will continue to happen for a very long time.


See and read my post above yours.

As I've stated EL AI is not a 100% state owned entity and it hasn't been so since 2005.
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tommyy
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:24 am

I travel to TLV frequently and avoid ELAL as their hard and soft products are from the 80's, they are always delayed and they have no concept of customer service, concerning this flight I spoke to someone who was on this flight (non religious) and he relayed to me the following:

All passengers were in the terminal in time for the flight 6PM, BESIDES the crew who arrived a few hours late, around 11:30PM while the pane was taxiing the religious passengers (around 200 passengers) asked if the plane could return to the terminal to drop them off as they realized they will not be able to land in time for the sabbath, the captain said that if everybody takes their seat he will return to the terminal and let them off, however the captain headed to the runway and took off without returning to the terminal, understandably half the plane was extremely upset

Second part of the story is that when the pilot took off he knew that he will not be able to land in TLV as no ELAL flight is allowed to land in TLV on the sabbath only if its a emergency and he knew he will have to divert to ATH or somewhere else, however he did not tell this to anybody until there was chaos in the plane and he implied that the diversion is because of the religious passengers, which was not true, and this only agitated the non religious passengers who were under the impression that the diversion was to accommodate the religious passengers

I am not going into detail on why LY does not fly on the sabbath and I do not condone any type of violence but according to my friend who was on the flight it appears here that there was a lot of lies and misinformation from the captain that led to this confrontation

There is always at least 2 sides to every story
 
Cunard
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:46 am

tommyy

Thanks for posting that information it's much appreciated and now we have a much clearer picture of what actually happened regarding this flight.
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Blerg
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:01 am

tommyy wrote:
I travel to TLV frequently and avoid ELAL as their hard and soft products are from the 80's, they are always delayed and they have no concept of customer service, concerning this flight I spoke to someone who was on this flight (non religious) and he relayed to me the following:

All passengers were in the terminal in time for the flight 6PM, BESIDES the crew who arrived a few hours late, around 11:30PM while the pane was taxiing the religious passengers (around 200 passengers) asked if the plane could return to the terminal to drop them off as they realized they will not be able to land in time for the sabbath, the captain said that if everybody takes their seat he will return to the terminal and let them off, however the captain headed to the runway and took off without returning to the terminal, understandably half the plane was extremely upset

Second part of the story is that when the pilot took off he knew that he will not be able to land in TLV as no ELAL flight is allowed to land in TLV on the sabbath only if its a emergency and he knew he will have to divert to ATH or somewhere else, however he did not tell this to anybody until there was chaos in the plane and he implied that the diversion is because of the religious passengers, which was not true, and this only agitated the non religious passengers who were under the impression that the diversion was to accommodate the religious passengers

I am not going into detail on why LY does not fly on the sabbath and I do not condone any type of violence but according to my friend who was on the flight it appears here that there was a lot of lies and misinformation from the captain that led to this confrontation

There is always at least 2 sides to every story


Interesting story but I understand why the pilot did what he did. Imagine having these people complain and nag on (probably) every flight you operate on. I can imagine the level of frustration among the crew.
 
Cadet985
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:42 am

thekorean wrote:
Does any other israeli airlines operate on Sabbath? El Al needs to be privatized.


El Al does not “operate” on the Sabbath, but its planes can be found operating flights for Arkia and Israir, which operate everyday, except Yom Kippur. El Al’s cargo division (one plane, 4X-ELF) operates as long as the plane is flyable.

El Al has gone way downhill from when I first flew it about eleven years ago. It is fully privately owned, and caves too much to the ultra religious minority. Look at loads on UA and DL flights to TLV on the Sabbath. They’re near 100%.

I’d give my opinion on the ultra religious and how they’re negatively impacting Israel as a whole, but I’d probably be given a vacation from posting.

Marc
 
entdoc
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:25 am

https://www.timesofisrael.com/religious ... al-flight/

Indeed here is a report contradictory to the one in my initial post and there are others in both languages.

Lots of mishaps here
Weather
Late crew if story is to be believed
Pilot knowing he will not get to TLV in time but keeping that from all
Pilot if story is to be believed promising gate return but taking off

And even more passengers knowing about risks for being late for the Sabbath taking a flight that cuts it too close. Anyone who wants to observe Sabbath should leave NY Wednesday night and surely not later than 4 pm Thursday in NY which is 11pm in TLV so with ten hours flight get there 9am. Leaves a few hours for delays.
Anything later with all potential for delays is way too risky for religious pax
 
26point2
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:15 pm

Why not just call it "Saturday" like everyone else in aviation does. We fly on Saturdays, no?
 
steveinbc
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:11 pm

STLflyer wrote:
If your religion prevents you from flying during the Sabbath, maybe you shouldn't book a flight that gets you to your destination within 3 hours of the Sabbath given how unpredictable air travel can be.

It's ridiculous that El Al keeps caving into these zealots. If they're being belligerent and violent towards crew, they should've been restrained and handed off the the police at TLV or diversion airport, not put up in a hotel to wait until after Shabbat. Stop giving them special treatment. If that had been anyone else, or any other airline, you go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.


That's a very good point. Maybe there should be an agreement check box for flights that potentially land into Shabbat where they agree to accept the operational constraints imposed in the event of delays.
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peterinlisbon
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm

Couldn't they just leave behind the passengers that had a problem arriving on the Sabbath and let everyone else fly without them?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:34 pm

26point2 wrote:
Why not just call it "Saturday" like everyone else in aviation does. We fly on Saturdays, no?


For one, Saturday begins at midnight, and ends in 24 hours, at midnight.
Shabbat, on the other hands, is observed by Jews beginning with (more or less) sunset on Friday and until sunset on Saturday.
Not exactly the same.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:17 pm

LH748 wrote:
It's so sad when religion does not only affect the people that want to follow it but interferes with the lives of others.


I didn’t get my talking points memo today so help me out. Are we accommodating a minority because that’s the right thing to do in a diverse society or no?
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Cadet985
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:55 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Couldn't they just leave behind the passengers that had a problem arriving on the Sabbath and let everyone else fly without them?


My understanding (and please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) is that to leave the passengers behind, they would have had to unload the luggage to find their bags because the TSA and/or El Al security will not allow an “unattended” suitcase to fly. To do that is unloading pallets, looking through them, etc.

Again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m still a newbie when it comes to the technical/legal side so I’m eager to learn.

Marc
 
entdoc
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Well at any rate lots of conflicting reports in press. FAs have posted on social media that there was a modicum of violence as have some pax. Other pax posted claiming no violence at all and praising LY for the arrangements made in ATH.
What is the truth? Who knows.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm

Cadet985 wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
Couldn't they just leave behind the passengers that had a problem arriving on the Sabbath and let everyone else fly without them?


My understanding (and please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) is that to leave the passengers behind, they would have had to unload the luggage to find their bags because the TSA and/or El Al security will not allow an “unattended” suitcase to fly. To do that is unloading pallets, looking through them, etc.

Again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m still a newbie when it comes to the technical/legal side so I’m eager to learn.

Marc


Correct, you don’t fly with luggage belonging to pax that was kicked off or didn’t show up. Sometimes you fly a passenger on one flight and the bag is delayed and comes with the next flight though.

/Fredrik
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:36 pm

entdoc wrote:
Well at any rate lots of conflicting reports in press. FAs have posted on social media that there was a modicum of violence as have some pax. Other pax posted claiming no violence at all and praising LY for the arrangements made in ATH.
What is the truth? Who knows.


Those saying "no violence" might well be ultra-Orthodox with a dog in the fight.

Also, where is the vaunted El Al security in all of this? They're supposed to have on-board plainclothes security guards, no? Why didn't they intervene?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:48 pm

thekorean wrote:
Does any other israeli airlines operate on Sabbath? El Al needs to be privatized.


El Al as Sun D'Or, Israir, and Arkia will operate on the Sabbath or major Jewish holidays, but El Al can't fly as an El Al flight.

As for the problem, it likely was because of the Snowmageddon in NYC that evening that paralyzed the city. Both LY8 (4X-EDF, which continued on to TLV) and LY2 (4X-ELB, which diverted to ATH and then flew on to TLV empty) were delayed leaving because streets in NYC delaying inbound crews (the late crew claim seems very believable; what should have been a 2-hour commute for me on Thursday stretched to nearly 6 hours), as well as departing aircraft from other airlines making gates not available.

The other problem is: if the flights were canceled at JFK, and the flights were nearly full...how are you re-accommodating almost 700 passengers?
 
ultrapig
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:11 pm

There is a difference between accommodating religious needs and the accommodatees being rude. I would never eat a ham sandwich next to an ultra orthodox Jew on the plane but I'm not moving from my assigned seat because of his belief that he can't fly on Sabbath. Many members of the Jewish faith, including myself, won't fly EL Al because we won't put up with this nonsense.
 
9w748capt
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:16 am

Sounds like this was one of those if it can go wrong, it will - kind of situations. But it's still never appropriate to harass or intimidate the crew. Shame on those passengers. And if the LY captain did lie, then shame on him as well.
 
tommyy
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:27 am

I listened to the ATC recordings and you can clearly hear the pilot asking ground to return to the gate at around 11:20pm only to say a few minutes later that he is continuing to the runway

My guess is that the captain called operations and was told that the aircraft was needed in TLV for the Sunday rotation and he should continue the flight even though it meant a guaranteed diversion as LY is not allowed to transport passengers to TLV on the sabbath and they would have to stop somewhere and switch the passengers to a different aircraft (non LY) and continue with the empty 747 to TLV

The only issue is that the captain failed to communicate the above to the passengers and the religious passenger were upset because they felt they were lied to by the captain and the non religious were upset because they thought the diversion was because of the religious passengers

All the captain had to do was go on the intercom and tell the passengers the truth and that would have gone a long way with both groups
 
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CARST
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:08 am

The crazy nutters and their religions......

From an operational standpoint I understand the pilots or airlines decision. Leaving these people behind in New York, would have taken propbably an extra longhaul rotation from TLV to JFK to pick them up (thus empty ferry flight to JFK, with double crews, etc.). By shuttling these crazy people to ATH, they were within an hour flight from TLV and could be picked up by one or two 737s or a single longhaul plane in its downtime.

Actually the decision to ferry these people to ATH made more sense than leaving them behind in New York. At least purely operational speaking. As an airline I would blacklist them for 10 years or more, especially if they demand to be picked up for free from Athens.
 
FatCat
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:39 am

Oilman wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
The erstwhile leader of Turkmenistan renamed the days of the week including after members of his own family. Thursday was named after his mother in law.


That’s just crazy. Clearly Monday’s should be named after a mother-in-law.

agree
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tommyy
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:42 pm

CARST wrote:
The crazy nutters and their religions......

From an operational standpoint I understand the pilots or airlines decision. Leaving these people behind in New York, would have taken propbably an extra longhaul rotation from TLV to JFK to pick them up (thus empty ferry flight to JFK, with double crews, etc.). By shuttling these crazy people to ATH, they were within an hour flight from TLV and could be picked up by one or two 737s or a single longhaul plane in its downtime.

Actually the decision to ferry these people to ATH made more sense than leaving them behind in New York. At least purely operational speaking. As an airline I would blacklist them for 10 years or more, especially if they demand to be picked up for free from Athens.


You dont understand, it has nothing to do with "these people" LY cannot transport passengers to TLV after sundown of Friday, even if the passengers are not jewish, so they had to stop in ATH regardless and then ferry the passengers via a NON LY aircraft if its going to land on the sabbath

It might be a ludicrous policy regarding LY but its almost like you fly with SV and are not allowed to drink any alcohol because of respect to their religion, since LY is the flag airline of Israel they do not operate on the sabbath due to respect for the Jewish religion, and if you ever travel to Israel most stores and public transportation do not operate on the sabbath, hence the same for LY
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:38 am

This entire issue is deeply embedded in complex discussions surrounding Israeli politics and the gap between secular persons of Jewish heritage and those Jewish persons who practice their ancestral religion.

Presumably the only way for this issue to be resolved is for one side to win the debate in Israeli politics. Or the ultra-orthodox change their theology to accept situations like this.

To the extent that El Al is a political entity, this is going to happen. It is unfortunate, but frankly there are many airlines that are at least in part political entities.
 
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CARST
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Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:06 am

tommyy wrote:
CARST wrote:
The crazy nutters and their religions......

From an operational standpoint I understand the pilots or airlines decision. Leaving these people behind in New York, would have taken propbably an extra longhaul rotation from TLV to JFK to pick them up (thus empty ferry flight to JFK, with double crews, etc.). By shuttling these crazy people to ATH, they were within an hour flight from TLV and could be picked up by one or two 737s or a single longhaul plane in its downtime.

Actually the decision to ferry these people to ATH made more sense than leaving them behind in New York. At least purely operational speaking. As an airline I would blacklist them for 10 years or more, especially if they demand to be picked up for free from Athens.


You dont understand, it has nothing to do with "these people" LY cannot transport passengers to TLV after sundown of Friday, even if the passengers are not jewish, so they had to stop in ATH regardless and then ferry the passengers via a NON LY aircraft if its going to land on the sabbath

It might be a ludicrous policy regarding LY but its almost like you fly with SV and are not allowed to drink any alcohol because of respect to their religion, since LY is the flag airline of Israel they do not operate on the sabbath due to respect for the Jewish religion, and if you ever travel to Israel most stores and public transportation do not operate on the sabbath, hence the same for LY


I understand fully, I just don't have any respect for religions. People can live by them in private, but should never interfere with the public life of other persons. And this is isn't about Israel, Jews or LY. SV should transport people of all religions, too, they should let single women sit beside single men, they should serve alcohol. Not that I need or drink alcohol on a plane. But every limitation because of willy nilly made up rules (and religion is nothing else for me) should not affect other persons. Very simple.

And also you didn't read my post fully. Even if LY has to adhere to these laws and is not allowed to land on a Saturday in Israel, it made A LOT of sense to fly to Athens, because they will be able to fly these people over to TLV within 1 hour, or 1.5 hours realistically. The airline will be able to deploy the aircraft for its next mission, too, without it being stranded at JFK. And all these people WANTED to go to TLV, they just didn't want to arrive there on Saturday. So with being in a hotel in Athens, they were already very close to their final destination and it was easier to bring them to their final destination from Athens, than from New York. So purely operation, regaridng airplane, crew and passengers, it was a smart move to fly to Athens and let the pax stay there for 24 hours.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:01 pm

No patience here with religious interference of any sort or colour with other people's lives. It's religion: keep it private, don't bother me, don't expect me to behave differently because of your faith - it's YOURS not MINE. Never going to accommodate the needs of a lunatic for no reason.
Those who are unable to perform and function purposefully in life -read: the real world- should never be granted the benefit of a passport and should be confined to their homes.
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:41 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
No patience here with religious interference of any sort or colour with other people's lives. It's religion: keep it private, don't bother me, don't expect me to behave differently because of your faith - it's YOURS not MINE. Never going to accommodate the needs of a lunatic for no reason.
Those who are unable to perform and function purposefully in life -read: the real world- should never be granted the benefit of a passport and should be confined to their homes.


I'll be respectful on this because it is a sensitive topic. However, the problem with this post and the several on this thread that agree with this line of thinking is that the test of reversing the situation leads to large problems. To tell someone to keep personal beliefs private quickly leads to impeding their right to free expression in the public arena - a right which everyone can agree as important in a free and diverse society. I generally err to the side of allowing free expression so long as my next paragraph is digested...

Tact and discretion makes the issue a lot more manageable. An Orthodox politely asking to be moved to another seat because they can't sit next to the opposite gender is fine. Now, if they make a scene or become aggressive, that is a problem that has less to do with religion and more to do with standards of behavior. Was this problem on El Al more about observing religious customs (which modern society should respect, I think), or more about adults acting like children due to a perceived entitlement to do so? And how times per month on a.net do we get treated to threads about situations were adults acted like spoiled brats just because they could?

In El Al's case, they carry a banner of observing certain religious customs, which is great and the economic market seems to give them a space to do that. But it appears that it has created a space for public norms to be overturned, particularly where you should be able to bear an insult with composure and thoughtfulness.
 
WIederling
Posts: 7899
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:56 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
entdoc wrote:
Well at any rate lots of conflicting reports in press. FAs have posted on social media that there was a modicum of violence as have some pax. Other pax posted claiming no violence at all and praising LY for the arrangements made in ATH.
What is the truth? Who knows.


Those saying "no violence" might well be ultra-Orthodox with a dog in the fight.

Also, where is the vaunted El Al security in all of this? They're supposed to have on-board plainclothes security guards, no? Why didn't they intervene?


shabbat! no workee :-)) ( OK it wasn't yet was it ? )
Murphy is an optimist
 
twicearound
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:24 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
LH748 wrote:
It's so sad when religion does not only affect the people that want to follow it but interferes with the lives of others.


I didn’t get my talking points memo today so help me out. Are we accommodating a minority because that’s the right thing to do in a diverse society or no?


not when that "accommodation" is at the expense of the rest
 
tommyy
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:16 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:49 am

FYI, the tables have now turned the opposite way, LY ceo publicity admitted that there was no violence against the crew, LY launches investigation as the passengers have started a lawsuit that the captain lied to everyone and essentially kidnapped them, LY is considering compensation for all passengers as a result of the captain’s lies
 
entdoc
Topic Author
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:15 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:44 pm

Three sides to every story. Party A Party B and Truth. Which may never be fully known.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:20 pm

smithbs wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
No patience here with religious interference of any sort or colour with other people's lives. It's religion: keep it private, don't bother me, don't expect me to behave differently because of your faith - it's YOURS not MINE. Never going to accommodate the needs of a lunatic for no reason.
Those who are unable to perform and function purposefully in life -read: the real world- should never be granted the benefit of a passport and should be confined to their homes.


I'll be respectful on this because it is a sensitive topic. However, the problem with this post and the several on this thread that agree with this line of thinking is that the test of reversing the situation leads to large problems. To tell someone to keep personal beliefs private quickly leads to impeding their right to free expression in the public arena - a right which everyone can agree as important in a free and diverse society. I generally err to the side of allowing free expression so long as my next paragraph is digested...

Tact and discretion makes the issue a lot more manageable. An Orthodox politely asking to be moved to another seat because they can't sit next to the opposite gender is fine. Now, if they make a scene or become aggressive, that is a problem that has less to do with religion and more to do with standards of behavior. Was this problem on El Al more about observing religious customs (which modern society should respect, I think), or more about adults acting like children due to a perceived entitlement to do so? And how times per month on a.net do we get treated to threads about situations were adults acted like spoiled brats just because they could?

In El Al's case, they carry a banner of observing certain religious customs, which is great and the economic market seems to give them a space to do that. But it appears that it has created a space for public norms to be overturned, particularly where you should be able to bear an insult with composure and thoughtfulness.


I agree absolutely, fully and entirely in freely expressing religious beliefs. I am all for ear locks, headscarves, crosses et all, but I have no intention of having to accommodate these people's special needs/requests etc. I am just not prepared to go the extra mile and bend over backwards to accommodate and work around people's religious beliefs. That is too much in civic society.
I can put up with any religion so far as it's not infringing into [other] people's personal lives and liberties. The moment it hits this mark it quickly become a "no no issue" for me.
So, personally, I am not prepared to switch seats because someone may feel uncomfortable sitting next to me, or refrain from eating a ham ciabatta because my next seat's neighbor might feel uncomfortable, or whatever. But of course that is just me.
 
aa87
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:29 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
entdoc wrote:
Also, where is the vaunted El Al security in all of this? They're supposed to have on-board plainclothes security guards, no? Why didn't they intervene?


Um, maybe bc there was no "violence" and therefore no need to intervene.
 
aa87
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:43 pm

tommyy wrote:
I listened to the ATC recordings and you can clearly hear the pilot asking ground to return to the gate at around 11:20pm only to say a few minutes later that he is continuing to the runway


If possible can you pls post link to the ATC tape, I'm curious to hear that. Goes a long way to explain how this whole fiasco developed, apparently/possibly bc the captain simply didnt announce they can't return to the gate but they will land in Athens bc LY rules forbid flying on sabbath. Religious pax would have been reassured, non-religious might have been annoyed but all know LY doesn't fly on sabbath.

I've posted on this topic before and clearly sensitive. I'm just struck at how many a.netters will casually trash "religion" and believers as lunatics, fanatics, spoiled, etc. I disdain bad, anti-social bechavior by anyone, for any reason, regardless of who or why. That said, at least in the US our constitution rests on a delicate balancing of free expression vs. no state endorsement. Same goes for intrusion. I know plenty of orthodox and "ultras", none that I know would ask or demand a pax eating a ham sandwich to move or stop eating it. Same for sitting next to opposite gender (and if they do, they don't ask that pax to move, they ask an FA is possible to be reassigned). Most people understand that an airliner is cramped and prison-like, but still a big public space.

Viewed in perspective, this is another example of a basic rule: don't lie to pax. People in general handle bad news a lot better if they believe they're being told the full truth.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:04 pm

entdoc wrote:
Three sides to every story. Party A Party B and Truth. Which may never be fully known.


Yeah, there are fine people on both sides. </snark>
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:08 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I am all for ear locks, headscarves, crosses et all, but I have no intention of having to accommodate these people's special needs/requests etc. I am just not prepared to go the extra mile and bend over backwards to accommodate and work around people's religious beliefs.


Perhaps you might re-think flying El Al or visiting the Jewish state, then. El Al goes the extra mile to accomodate religious beliefs as a matter of course. For example, all in-flight catering is kosher. You might also want to avoid flying many Muslim airlines. Even TK shows the direction of Qibla on its in-flight monitors.
 
tommyy
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:16 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:58 pm

 
aa87
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:38 am

Thanks for posting tommyy. Very interesting, the ATC clearly shows they at least intended a gate return and then changed, presumably bc LY operations told them to proceed.

I love the line "We appreciate depart as soon as possible, otherwise the passengers continue making problems". That only make sense if one understands the importance of Shabbos, No other airline in the world would ever generate that kind of ATC transmission - usually "passengers making problems" means a return to the gate or a diversion. Not making any judgments but I hope at lease some other a.netters see the humor in that.
 
BobbyPSP
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:29 pm

Re: LY Religious Woes Redux

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:10 am

Cadet985 wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
Couldn't they just leave behind the passengers that had a problem arriving on the Sabbath and let everyone else fly without them?


My understanding (and please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) is that to leave the passengers behind, they would have had to unload the luggage to find their bags because the TSA and/or El Al security will not allow an “unattended” suitcase to fly. To do that is unloading pallets, looking through them, etc.

Again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m still a newbie when it comes to the technical/legal side so I’m eager to learn.

Marc


That is correct. They do know exactly which can it is in though, so it’s a matter of unloading enough to get to the container, finding the bag, and “unload “ it from the container digitally and physically.

If in a bulk pit just a matter of going through it.

Pain in the butt yet focused

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