Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
THF
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:38 pm

Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:00 am

Hello,

Could someone explain to me, why some wide body freighter services do stop twice in Europe on their intercontinental routes? For example flight CX 037 / CX 038 arrives in FRA from DEL on sundays, continues to CDG, and returns to DEL on the same day. Since it only operates once a week, wouldn't road feeder services be an adequate and cheaper alternative to connect FRA to CDG? Or is time-sensitivity despite the low flight frequency the main problem?

I'm sorry for this rather trivial question. Would be thankful for your help.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:12 am

It's not carrying freight between FRA and CDG, it's carrying freight from DEL to BOTH CDG and FRA, and picking up from both to take to DEL, too.
Obviously not enough freight on board to justify running two separate nonstop flights.
 
THF
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:47 am

But wouldn’t it be more efficient to just stop let’s say in FRA, fully unload for both FRA and CDG, and truck parts of the freight to Paris, instead of flying the short distance leg between FRA and CDG and paying airport charges twice? Or is the intercontinental cargo too time-sensitive for that kind of operation? As I mentioned, these are mostly just weekly scheduled services. I have no clue about how attractive these flights might be for express freight.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:34 am

Trucking adds time to the total trasit time, that may be up to 24 hours. CX won't release their customer Details but we can assume that there are customers who want a 6 hour cut-offf time. Or, check the Routings on some CV or LH flights, you will find in-and outbound additional stops at a Euroean airport
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:51 am

The freight is already trucked to the stops to be picked up.
I can drive faster than you
 
paullam
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:08 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:29 am

This is slightly off-topic, but how is crew scheduling being handled on these flights? Does their crew spend one week in Europe or do they shuttle back on passenger flights?
712 733 734 735 737 738 739 744 752 763 77E 77L 77W 788 789 | A20N 318 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 388 | ASK21 | AT75 AT76 | BCS3 | C152 C172 C182 C210 | CR2 CR7 | DH8C DH8D | E190 | F70 F100 | LJ24 | PA31 | RJ85 RJ1H | SF34 | SU9 | YK2
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:30 am

There are also cargoes that don't take kindly to trucking. Stuff like French wine (CDG) or pharmaceuticals such as insulins (heavy demand for those in India).


Trucking causes a lot of vibration to these items whereas flying minimises it.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:37 am

Air Cargo is so diversified, there are no simple answers. French Wine does not grow around Paris, Kyon is the better loading place for that. Or Vatry in the Champagne Region. Pharmaceuticals may Need cooling and flowers are perishables, among many other items.

The mentioned flight might have Merchandise on board that was loaded at FRA and CDG as well as trucked from out stations
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
factsonly
Posts: 2927
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:58 am

paullam wrote:
This is slightly off-topic, but how is crew scheduling being handled on these flights? Does their crew spend one week in Europe or do they shuttle back on passenger flights?


CX flies multiple B747-8F / B747-400F to FRA each week via different routings:

- HKG-FRA-HKG
- HKG-FRA-AMS-HKG
- HKG-AMS-FRA-HKG
- HKG-FRA-CDG-HKG
- HKG-CDG-FRA-HKG
 
User avatar
euroflyer
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:20 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:11 am

This a milk-run type operations, and it's very common in the transport industry whether by road or air. It offers a lot of advantages by pooling the deliveries and pick-ups. Especially when you have to take into account the pre-and post-carriage. CDG and FRA being cargo hubs, they themselve pool cargo from domestic routes.
For instance, a spare part for a satellite that is produced in Toulouse will be picked-up by a truck to bring it at TLS airport, which will be sent over during the night by cargo to CDG, and then wait for its international flight to DEL. It's all about flight availability/capacity and leadtimes. If there's a better, cheaper, faster option from BCN to DEL for example, the truck will bring the part from Toulouse to BCN instead. We can assume that if a cargo operator stops at one airport, there are needs in its catchment area
Born to fly !
 
THF
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:14 pm

Thank you all for the replies! I’m a little bit surprised about cargoes that are not allowed to be trucked. Once they have arrived at their destination airport they most likely will continue their journey by car or truck, anyway. Or am I mistaken?

I understand that forwarders need to carry the freight to the respective cargo hub or that it is feedered in by domestic flights. I was merely concentrating on strategies of the airline that (also) operates the intercontinental flight segment and was wondering why it doesn’t try to minimize costs by using own road feeder services on this rather short continental leg. But as you said, there could be multiple reasons for that and the carrier won’t tell details. A short cut-off time might probably be important even on only weekly operated flights. Are cut-off times of about 6 hours a common standard within the air cargo sector?

When I checked the routings of some LH flights, as suggested by PanHam, I found myself confused by the fact that there are 777F-operations between FRA and LEJ stated in LH’s flight plan (such as LH8098 and LH8096) but can’t be found for example in the historical flight data base of flightradar24. Even recent OAG sample data doesn’t list any of these flights. Is there perhaps an obvious reason for this, that I am missing?
 
LH779
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:31 pm

THF wrote:
When I checked the routings of some LH flights, as suggested by PanHam, I found myself confused by the fact that there are 777F-operations between FRA and LEJ stated in LH’s flight plan (such as LH8098 and LH8096) but can’t be found for example in the historical flight data base of flightradar24. Even recent OAG sample data doesn’t list any of these flights. Is there perhaps an obvious reason for this, that I am missing?


Those are probably operated by the DHL/LH Cargo joint venture Aerologic that flies from LEJ and FRA for DHL and LH Cargo repectively.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3441
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:59 pm

THF wrote:
Thank you all for the replies! I’m a little bit surprised about cargoes that are not allowed to be trucked. Once they have arrived at their destination airport they most likely will continue their journey by car or truck, anyway. Or am I mistaken?

I understand that forwarders need to carry the freight to the respective cargo hub or that it is feedered in by domestic flights. I was merely concentrating on strategies of the airline that (also) operates the intercontinental flight segment and was wondering why it doesn’t try to minimize costs by using own road feeder services on this rather short continental leg. But as you said, there could be multiple reasons for that and the carrier won’t tell details. A short cut-off time might probably be important even on only weekly operated flights. Are cut-off times of about 6 hours a common standard within the air cargo sector?

When I checked the routings of some LH flights, as suggested by PanHam, I found myself confused by the fact that there are 777F-operations between FRA and LEJ stated in LH’s flight plan (such as LH8098 and LH8096) but can’t be found for example in the historical flight data base of flightradar24. Even recent OAG sample data doesn’t list any of these flights. Is there perhaps an obvious reason for this, that I am missing?

Very few things can’t be trucked over short distances. It may be preferable to do it by air, but hardly impossible. The wine and pharmaceutical comment by one poster has me scratching my head. I work for one of the biggest cargo companies in the world and we carry a ton of both over our ground network daily.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
THF
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:12 pm

Thanks, LH779! That was my idea, too. So I checked the data for Aerologic flights and couldn’t find any between FRA and LEJ. Since Integrator flights aren’t listed at all, neither in the historical data base of flightradar nor by OAG, could it be possible that, if Aerologic operations are part of the DHL-network they are not listed and when flying routes “exclusively” for LH they are?
 
THF
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:17 am

Thank you, jetblueguy22. That’s what I was thinking.
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:42 am

THF wrote:
Thank you all for the replies! I’m a little bit surprised about cargoes that are not allowed to be trucked. Once they have arrived at their destination airport they most likely will continue their journey by car or truck, anyway. Or am I mistaken?

I understand that forwarders need to carry the freight to the respective cargo hub or that it is feedered in by domestic flights. I was merely concentrating on strategies of the airline that (also) operates the intercontinental flight segment and was wondering why it doesn’t try to minimize costs by using own road feeder services on this rather short continental leg. But as you said, there could be multiple reasons for that and the carrier won’t tell details. A short cut-off time might probably be important even on only weekly operated flights. Are cut-off times of about 6 hours a common standard within the air cargo sector?

When I checked the routings of some LH flights, as suggested by PanHam, I found myself confused by the fact that there are 777F-operations between FRA and LEJ stated in LH’s flight plan (such as LH8098 and LH8096) but can’t be found for example in the historical flight data base of flightradar24. Even recent OAG sample data doesn’t list any of these flights. Is there perhaps an obvious reason for this, that I am missing?


Let's say that you're located in France and it's easier to send your stuff through Paris. If CX doesn't want to operate there, someone else will. And if they have a sufficient amount of freight to send there anyways, this allows them to offer an additional loading point.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:57 am

Aerologic is a JV between LHCargo and DHL.. As both operate from diffferent hubs aircraft must be positioned. If those positioning flights carry freight Needs Insiders to confirm. Trucking takes about 4 to 6 jours to cover the distance,

For flights within Germany, many are blocked for freight but there is enough space available for priority and same day courier ops.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
THF
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Wide body freighter operation within Europe

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:27 pm

Thank you, guys! Appreciate your help.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos