GalebG4
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Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:37 am

What do you think about consolidation between Air India, Jet Airways and Vistara. All three airlines are making huge losses so why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline. They could also make two airlines, one full service legacy carrier with best slots on the main Indian airports and one ulcc as the IndiGo and Goair. This way India could take piece of big Middle East 3 market and also be extremely competitive on the ulcc home front.
 
binayak
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:51 am

Honestly speaking, I can at the best see a strong tie up b/w jet airways and Vistara happening in future. (not talking about merger). Had the govt really wanted to save AI, there were other ways and for that we can refer to the AI privatisation thread.
Thing is none of the 3 want to be a complete LCC. However what I feel is if the Vistara jet together become one dominant FSC, then in the long run they'll be able to regain pricing control.
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GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:13 am

binayak wrote:
Honestly speaking, I can at the best see a strong tie up b/w jet airways and Vistara happening in future. (not talking about merger). Had the govt really wanted to save AI, there were other ways and for that we can refer to the AI privatisation thread.
Thing is none of the 3 want to be a complete LCC. However what I feel is if the Vistara jet together become one dominant FSC, then in the long run they'll be able to regain pricing control.


I agree but, what is point of losing many with nearly all airlines and booming market. What i have mentioned is that two airlines are going to be made, one ulcc and on legacy. New structure, new management, new people, handpicked best professionals and you will get two of the best airlines in the world. Nobody has mentioned transforming one or another airline, but making two extremely competitive airlines. Indigo is huge and Goair is also growing fast, so why would they wait to loose more market share against extremely stiff and world leading ulcc competition.
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:43 am

GalebG4 wrote:
What do you think about consolidation between Air India, Jet Airways and Vistara. All three airlines are making huge losses so why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline. They could also make two airlines, one full service legacy carrier with best slots on the main Indian airports and one ulcc as the IndiGo and Goair. This way India could take piece of big Middle East 3 market and also be extremely competitive on the ulcc home front.


How can the government consolidate private airlines?
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Gr8Circle
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:06 am

How can the government consolidate private airlines?



Exactly....don't know what the OP had in mind.....the govt has absolutely no role in this......AI is govt owned; the rest of the airlines are all private corporations.....has that been considered before posting?
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:01 am

Gr8Circle wrote:
How can the government consolidate private airlines?



Exactly....don't know what the OP had in mind.....the govt has absolutely no role in this......AI is govt owned; the rest of the airlines are all private corporations.....has that been considered before posting?


Private-public partnership hmm.?
 
IPFreely
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:12 am

GalebG4 wrote:
why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline.


Interesting plan. What happens to the current shareholders of these airlines? Are they just out of luck? If they want to keep their investment, do they have to buy their own shares in the IPO?
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:19 am

IPFreely wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline.


Interesting plan. What happens to the current shareholders of these airlines? Are they just out of luck? If they want to keep their investment, do they have to buy their own shares in the IPO?


Whoever is shareholder of these airlines, he is shareholder of dead horse. They haven’t made a dime on their shares for last 5 years, so proposal for profitability would not be unacceptable. IPO or whatever as long as it makes sense.
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:28 am

GalebG4 wrote:
Gr8Circle wrote:
How can the government consolidate private airlines?



Exactly....don't know what the OP had in mind.....the govt has absolutely no role in this......AI is govt owned; the rest of the airlines are all private corporations.....has that been considered before posting?


Private-public partnership hmm.?

The last thing India needs is a PPP in a low margin high capital low return business like aviation.
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IPFreely
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:51 am

GalebG4 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline.


Interesting plan. What happens to the current shareholders of these airlines? Are they just out of luck? If they want to keep their investment, do they have to buy their own shares in the IPO?


Whoever is shareholder of these airlines, he is shareholder of dead horse. They haven’t made a dime on their shares for last 5 years, so proposal for profitability would not be unacceptable. IPO or whatever as long as it makes sense.


So if companies are not successful, the government can take them away from their owners and sell them to new owners? Interesting concept. Have you suggested this to any elected officials in the Indian government?
 
Cunard
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:36 am

Gr8Circle wrote:
How can the government consolidate private airlines?



Exactly....don't know what the OP had in mind.....the govt has absolutely no role in this......AI is govt owned; the rest of the airlines are all private corporations.....has that been considered before posting?


This is very common on a.net the majority that post or start such threads don't take anything into consideration or do any research whatsoever before posting.
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CARST
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:55 am

Sounds like communist B/S. Taking the people their companies or investments away because they are not profitable enough?

In the real world, and that is even valid for India, private people can pump money into a company as long as they like. The companies either go bankrupt or they succeed at one point or find enough stupid investors to pump money into a loss-making business over years.

India is country of 1.3 billion people. Even if only 10% of them can afford to fly from time to time then I'm sure that this country can sustain at least 10 airlines profitably. Labor is so cheap in India, that you can run business way cheaper, too, including airlines. There is no need for consolidation at this point.

And actually, if the Indian government would finally let AI collapse and go bankrupt (which should have happened perhaps 10 or 15 years ago), then other airlines could flourish and wouldn't suffer from this heavily subsised state carrier distorting the a otherwise free market of privately held companies. So if you want to change anything, make the Indian politicians stop supporting AI. Especially because the only reason for them to support AI, is because they can be darn freeloaders on that airline.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:40 pm

IPFreely wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Interesting plan. What happens to the current shareholders of these airlines? Are they just out of luck? If they want to keep their investment, do they have to buy their own shares in the IPO?


Whoever is shareholder of these airlines, he is shareholder of dead horse. They haven’t made a dime on their shares for last 5 years, so proposal for profitability would not be unacceptable. IPO or whatever as long as it makes sense.


So if companies are not successful, the government can take them away from their owners and sell them to new owners? Interesting concept. Have you suggested this to any elected officials in the Indian government?


So if airline is government owned, then it’s not allowed to consolidate with another airline. Really?
Airline as airline is just company, it doesn’t matter who is the owner of the airline, as long as it makes economic sense.
Look at US big 3, consolidation, consolidation, consolidation last 50 years.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:45 pm

CARST wrote:
Sounds like communist B/S. Taking the people their companies or investments away because they are not profitable enough?

In the real world, and that is even valid for India, private people can pump money into a company as long as they like. The companies either go bankrupt or they succeed at one point or find enough stupid investors to pump money into a loss-making business over years.

India is country of 1.3 billion people. Even if only 10% of them can afford to fly from time to time then I'm sure that this country can sustain at least 10 airlines profitably. Labor is so cheap in India, that you can run business way cheaper, too, including airlines. There is no need for consolidation at this point.

And actually, if the Indian government would finally let AI collapse and go bankrupt (which should have happened perhaps 10 or 15 years ago), then other airlines could flourish and wouldn't suffer from this heavily subsised state carrier distorting the a otherwise free market of privately held companies. So if you want to change anything, make the Indian politicians stop supporting AI. Especially because the only reason for them to support AI, is because they can be darn freeloaders on that airline.


This is pure American brain washing, nobody was talking about taking companies from their owner but making both companies profitable. Making money like Indigo or other asian airline. Why loosing money when you can make it.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:49 pm

Cunard wrote:
Gr8Circle wrote:
How can the government consolidate private airlines?



Exactly....don't know what the OP had in mind.....the govt has absolutely no role in this......AI is govt owned; the rest of the airlines are all private corporations.....has that been considered before posting?


This is very common on a.net the majority that post or start such threads don't take anything into consideration or do any research whatsoever before posting.


It doesn’t matter who is the owner of the airline, every airline on the planet can consolidate with another airline. If we are talking about ownership structure, that is in between owners of the airline, shareholders and so on...
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:52 pm

unrave wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
Gr8Circle wrote:


Exactly....don't know what the OP had in mind.....the govt has absolutely no role in this......AI is govt owned; the rest of the airlines are all private corporations.....has that been considered before posting?


Private-public partnership hmm.?

The last thing India needs is a PPP in a low margin high capital low return business like aviation.

Yes for sure, they already have money losing airline, so making any money should not be that bad.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:56 pm

IPFreely wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline.


Interesting plan. What happens to the current shareholders of these airlines? Are they just out of luck? If they want to keep their investment, do they have to buy their own shares in the IPO?


It depends on the owners of the airlines, shareholders, IPO could be one of the answers.
 
indcwby
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:07 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
What do you think about consolidation between Air India, Jet Airways and Vistara. All three airlines are making huge losses so why don’t India as government consolidate them and put then put them on IPO as new airline. They could also make two airlines, one full service legacy carrier with best slots on the main Indian airports and one ulcc as the IndiGo and Goair. This way India could take piece of big Middle East 3 market and also be extremely competitive on the ulcc home front.


As I don't remember how it worked out, but many opinions are out there on how Air Indian/Indian Airlines and the mergers that took place to create Indian Airlines in the first place. Many talking heads would say there was a lot of corruption involved/money laundering involved.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:17 pm

CARST wrote:
Sounds like communist B/S. Taking the people their companies or investments away because they are not profitable enough?

In the real world, and that is even valid for India, private people can pump money into a company as long as they like. The companies either go bankrupt or they succeed at one point or find enough stupid investors to pump money into a loss-making business over years.


The OP isn't talking profitable enough. He's talking not profitable at all. (I haven't checked this assertion.) If so, private owners should be happy to sell their shares for a fair government offer. That's not expropriation.

Even die-hard capitalists - educated ones, anyway - recognize that not all industries in all times produce a satisfactory outcome. If, for example, absence of earnings is an impediment to safety and spare parts availability the government has a legitimate interest in promoting carrier efficiency and profitability.
 
hohd
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:27 pm

CARST wrote:
Sounds like communist B/S. Taking the people their companies or investments away because they are not profitable enough?

In the real world, and that is even valid for India, private people can pump money into a company as long as they like. The companies either go bankrupt or they succeed at one point or find enough stupid investors to pump money into a loss-making business over years.

India is country of 1.3 billion people. Even if only 10% of them can afford to fly from time to time then I'm sure that this country can sustain at least 10 airlines profitably. Labor is so cheap in India, that you can run business way cheaper, too, including airlines. There is no need for consolidation at this point.

And actually, if the Indian government would finally let AI collapse and go bankrupt (which should have happened perhaps 10 or 15 years ago), then other airlines could flourish and wouldn't suffer from this heavily subsised state carrier distorting the a otherwise free market of privately held companies. So if you want to change anything, make the Indian politicians stop supporting AI. Especially because the only reason for them to support AI, is because they can be darn freeloaders on that airline.


India does not need any more airlines, it already has too many and not even one is profitable (including Indigo). Not stating that the Government has to force airlines to merge, that should occur on their own. USA and China which are much larger airline markets have fewer airlines, but most are profitable atleast in USA.. What India needs are fewer and reasonably profitable airlines. And no, labor is not that cheap especially in the airline industry. And lastly the current problems for Jet is not AI but Indigo. AI's fares are for most part higher than the competition both in domestic and international and they are not expanding or trying to increase market share in the domestic market either.
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CARST wrote:
Sounds like communist B/S. Taking the people their companies or investments away because they are not profitable enough?

In the real world, and that is even valid for India, private people can pump money into a company as long as they like. The companies either go bankrupt or they succeed at one point or find enough stupid investors to pump money into a loss-making business over years.


The OP isn't talking profitable enough. He's talking not profitable at all. (I haven't checked this assertion.) If so, private owners should be happy to sell their shares for a fair government offer. That's not expropriation.

Even die-hard capitalists - educated ones, anyway - recognize that not all industries in all times produce a satisfactory outcome. If, for example, absence of earnings is an impediment to safety and spare parts availability the government has a legitimate interest in promoting carrier efficiency and profitability.

The solution is et non profitable airlines die and allow profitable ones to prosper. How many airlines have folded in the US?
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GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:31 pm

hohd tank you so much, on the spot.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:33 pm

India is one hell of an overhyped market.

All this 'BRIC' nonsense shows that every Indian airline is losing money, the Govt can't even throw AI away with zero interest in it and demand is choked to the point where the likes of IndiGo have 200 jets on less than 60 pathetic routes after 15 years in operation.

Air Arabia and flydubai both fly to almost 100 places each and they barely have 100 jets between them - and both see rising demand.

Sorry, but the Indian av-market is a travesty. Rail rules for the majority of the poverty embellish population and nothing is going to change that for the next 100 years.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:37 pm

unrave wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
CARST wrote:
Sounds like communist B/S. Taking the people their companies or investments away because they are not profitable enough?

In the real world, and that is even valid for India, private people can pump money into a company as long as they like. The companies either go bankrupt or they succeed at one point or find enough stupid investors to pump money into a loss-making business over years.


The OP isn't talking profitable enough. He's talking not profitable at all. (I haven't checked this assertion.) If so, private owners should be happy to sell their shares for a fair government offer. That's not expropriation.

Even die-hard capitalists - educated ones, anyway - recognize that not all industries in all times produce a satisfactory outcome. If, for example, absence of earnings is an impediment to safety and spare parts availability the government has a legitimate interest in promoting carrier efficiency and profitability.

The solution is et non profitable airlines die and allow profitable ones to prosper. How many airlines have folded in the US?

NO THE SOLUTION IS MAKE TO TWO BRAND NEW AIRLINES, THERE IS NO PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN INDIA AT THE MOMENT please read the topic.
 
avier
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:44 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
India is one hell of an overhyped market.

All this 'BRIC' nonsense shows that every Indian airline is losing money, the Govt can't even throw AI away with zero interest in it and demand is choked to the point where the likes of IndiGo have 200 jets on less than 60 pathetic routes after 15 years in operation.

Air Arabia and flydubai both fly to almost 100 places each and they barely have 100 jets between them - and both see rising demand.

Sorry, but the Indian av-market is a travesty. Rail rules for the majority of the poverty embellish population and nothing is going to change that for the next 100 years.


Your logic is fully twisted and on the wrong spot.

Going by your logic, even US' Southwest Airlines should then be the most pathetic carrier in the world for having ~750 aircraft on just 100 odd city pairs in ~47 years.

You clearly have no understanding of the business model of well run airlines and come and harp on here about whats an efficient airline and whats not. And for the fact that you even think Air Arabia and Flydubai are "efficient" airlines, and not 6E (based on Southwest model) , your analyses is completely skewed.

It's disappointing that a.net has users like you that have no real understanding of the industry and talk the complete opposite of what should be done, and share all their skewed analysis and thoughts.
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:57 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
NO THE SOLUTION IS MAKE TO TWO BRAND NEW AIRLINES, THERE IS NO PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN INDIA AT THE MOMENT please read the topic.

NO IT IS NOT AND TYPING IN CAPS DOESN"T MAKE IT RIGHT
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GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:00 pm

unrave wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
NO THE SOLUTION IS MAKE TO TWO BRAND NEW AIRLINES, THERE IS NO PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN INDIA AT THE MOMENT please read the topic.

NO IT IS NOT AND TYPING IN CAPS DOESN"T MAKE IT RIGHT

Ok what is your solution?
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:01 pm

avier wrote:

It's disappointing that a.net has users like you that have no real understanding of the industry and talk the complete opposite of what should be done, and share all their skewed analysis and thoughts.


It has always been the case though. If you want some real entertainment and an insight into how western centric this forum us, read the thread from 2004 that discusses IndiGo's original order for 100 planes.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:06 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
unrave wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
NO THE SOLUTION IS MAKE TO TWO BRAND NEW AIRLINES, THERE IS NO PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN INDIA AT THE MOMENT please read the topic.

NO IT IS NOT AND TYPING IN CAPS DOESN"T MAKE IT RIGHT

Ok what is your solution?


Solution is the government staying out of the business by privatising Air India, and concentrating on improving aviation infrastructure. The airlines will battle it out, some will merge, some will close and a few will thrive. The biggest threat to Indian aviation is lack of runway/parking capicity and that is where the focus of the government should be. The market will take care of profitability.
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algeorge2015
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:20 pm

Before finding any solution we need to understand the depth of ultra-corrupted relationship that every single sector keeps in my great nation. One needs to seek the truth behind most start ups, the corrupted relationships they keep (or forced to keep), and the billions needed to feed the leeches in all those relationships. No matter what everyone say I personally love Air India, I only had good experiences with AI. But my suggestions with all of them when they are failing in such a lucrative economy, LET THEM GO UNDER, just like the fate of Kingfisher. The Indian political corruption and its results are a proven path how people and businesses will forget, survive and move on in India.
 
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unrave
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:37 pm

Right now, India’s aviation market resembles that of the US from the 1980s to the 2000s. There are too many carriers fighting for space, and a discount carrier a la Southwest Airlines Co. is quietly demolishing the business models of the major players.

The crisis in North America was ultimately resolved by the major airlines consolidating into a cosy cartel that’s been able to pump out extraordinary profits once it stopped competing so hard for customers. But squashing Jet and Vistara together isn’t going to be nearly enough to achieve that outcome while SpiceJet, Indigo, Air India, AirAsia India and GoAir are still duking it out for supremacy.

https://www.financialexpress.com/opinio ... s/1385814/
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GalebG4
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Re: Solving Indian problem- consolidation...?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:46 pm

unrave wrote:
Right now, India’s aviation market resembles that of the US from the 1980s to the 2000s. There are too many carriers fighting for space, and a discount carrier a la Southwest Airlines Co. is quietly demolishing the business models of the major players.

The crisis in North America was ultimately resolved by the major airlines consolidating into a cosy cartel that’s been able to pump out extraordinary profits once it stopped competing so hard for customers. But squashing Jet and Vistara together isn’t going to be nearly enough to achieve that outcome while SpiceJet, Indigo, Air India, AirAsia India and GoAir are still duking it out for supremacy.

https://www.financialexpress.com/opinio ... s/1385814/

Thank you so much on you answer, Jet Airways is probably going down. Spice jet, Indigo and Goair are going to grow in Jet Airways fall and Air India is going to fly on the government wings. Vistara as they have said have product on the routes that are more towards ULCC then legacy carriers since the main inidan airports are full, but who knows they might take jet 737 if it’s going to be available. I can imagine how much there is space for corruption in Inidian government with that huge government and nation. That’s bad but one day it’s going to better, i’m an optimist. Go india!

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