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sonicruiser
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Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:23 am

Was recently surprised to discover that neither of the big 2 Japanese carriers fly to YYZ. YVR yes, but YYZ has a decently sized population as well, but only AC flies the route. Does their strategy end in YVR or are they planning to resume this in the future?
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whywhyzee
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:26 am

Neither has any more slots for Canada at this time, more are to be allocated next hear for opening in 2020.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:30 am

sonicruiser wrote:
but YYZ has a decently sized population as well

Vangroovy is 600,000, T-dot is 2.7 million. And I agree it’s weird no Japanese carriers
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airnorth
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:42 am

cedarjet wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
but YYZ has a decently sized population as well

Vangroovy is 600,000, T-dot is 2.7 million. And I agree it’s weird no Japanese carriers

While the City Vancouver might be around 600k people, I think we need to consider the area that YVR serves, the Greater Vancouver Area, or GVR, then you have about 2.5 million people. When most people say "Vancouver", they are generally talking about the GVR.
 
EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:17 am

airnorth wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
but YYZ has a decently sized population as well

Vangroovy is 600,000, T-dot is 2.7 million. And I agree it’s weird no Japanese carriers

While the City Vancouver might be around 600k people, I think we need to consider the area that YVR serves, the Greater Vancouver Area, or GVR, then you have about 2.5 million people. When most people say "Vancouver", they are generally talking about the GVR.

Yes, well the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) is 6.4 million, if you want to start that game.
 
EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:24 am

There's a similar discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1393353

The gist: Slot restrictions keep already-conservative airlines even more conservative. NH's partner AC already flies the (preferred) YYZ/HND route, and YYZ/NRT with a stop in Calgary - so NH covers YVR/HND. JAL would be relying on WS for their partnership and has premium-heavy configurations, giving their preference to markets better suited to that type of demand.
 
master14225
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:34 am

If IAD and IAH can be served by NH, I think it's a joke that neither NH or JAL serves YYZ.
 
notconcerned
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:26 am

master14225 wrote:
If IAD and IAH can be served by NH, I think it's a joke that neither NH or JAL serves YYZ.


That's because NH/UA have TPAC JV which generates much more connecting traffic between US-Japan-Asia and beyond. It's quite possible that AC already has the Canada-Japan O&D market covered with YUL-NRT and YYZ-HND (and YYC-NRT, not sure if that's still seasonal or gone).
 
hoons90
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:27 am

master14225 wrote:
If IAD and IAH can be served by NH, I think it's a joke that neither NH or JAL serves YYZ.


The relationship between UA and NH is stronger than that of AC and NH. UA and NH have a JV.
In addition, although NH are relatively new at IAH, they have been serving IAD for over 32 years, and they have an entrenched presence there being one of the first East Asian carriers to serve the DC area.

As for JL, they have been rather conservative in their expansion since their restructuring, and the majority of the new routes they have started since then are in conjunction with either their JV partners (SAN, BOS, SEA) or other alliance partners (HEL, MEL).
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master14225
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:29 am

NH could do a NRT-YYZ while AC keeps YYZ-HND. Also NH could also do a JV w AC as CA has a JV with AC.
 
airnorth
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:49 am

EChid wrote:
airnorth wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Vangroovy is 600,000, T-dot is 2.7 million. And I agree it’s weird no Japanese carriers

While the City Vancouver might be around 600k people, I think we need to consider the area that YVR serves, the Greater Vancouver Area, or GVR, then you have about 2.5 million people. When most people say "Vancouver", they are generally talking about the GVR.

Yes, well the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) is 6.4 million, if you want to start that game.

What game?
 
EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:54 am

master14225 wrote:
NH could do a NRT-YYZ while AC keeps YYZ-HND. Also NH could also do a JV w AC as CA has a JV with AC.

Beyond some slot restrictions, I don't think anyone here is claiming that NH *can't* do X, Y, or Z. I'm sure NH or JL could make YYZ workable, but they can make more money elsewhere and I'm sure they have done a solid load and yield analysis to determine that. Airlines that make decisions to start routes purely 'because we feel we should be serving X city' die quickly. ANA is better than that, and JAL knows better than that after it's near-death experience.

And if AC is making good money serving the needs of its Canadian hubs to Japan alone, it has no reason to form a JV. Japan and China are extremely different markets, and there was a major push to form stronger bonds with Chinese airlines so as to create some joint reason to control ASK between the two countries and therefore try to put a stop to skydiving fares.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:22 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Neither has any more slots for Canada at this time, more are to be allocated next hear for opening in 2020.

Why do so many people on this site confuse frequencies with slots? Slots are for the airport, frequencies are for the country.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:40 am

master14225 wrote:
If IAD and IAH can be served by NH, I think it's a joke that neither NH or JAL serves YYZ.


Blame the government of Canada and its desire to protect Air Canada from competition. The U.S. and Japan have an Open Skies agreement; Canada and Japan do not.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:10 pm

We cannot expect ANA or JAL to serve YYZ/YUL, the way we cannot expect a Middle Eastern airline to serve Vancouver. Canadian protectionism at work. To this day EK/EY have not been able to serve YUL, and QR has not been able to serve YYZ. Heck, EK would serve Ottawa if Ottawa—pun!—were willing enough, the way Australia has attracted QR flights to its capital CBR. The same applies for ANA and JAL. Not YOW, but at least Montréal might have been served.
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longhauler
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:25 pm

As predictable .... it didn't take long.

There are no restrictions on any Japanese nor Canadian carriers flying between Canada and Japan. It is not "open skies" but likely because the need is not there. Every air route applied by either Japan or Canada has been approved since 1954.

If any Japanese carrier wished to fly to YYZ (or YOW or YEG or YXE, etc.), they could.

I would suggest that Japan is far more "protectionist" of its country's interests than Canada. Witnessing the merger between AC and CP and the care needed with regard to the NRT slots held by CP was fascinating.

The only thing stopping ANA or JAL from flying to YYZ (other than the lack of demand) might be ATC restrictions (YYZ slots) or physical constraints (gate space at YYZ).
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flyyul
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:38 pm

master14225 wrote:
NH could do a NRT-YYZ while AC keeps YYZ-HND. Also NH could also do a JV w AC as CA has a JV with AC.


What advantage would ANA have over AC in this situation? AC flies directly from the preferred airport and the natural yield base of the market - ANA would be left with a much inferior product and schedule offering. There's a reason why AC doesn't fly NRT-YYZ today.

Reading your posts on this subject has become a bit comical. Do some research, look at the ANA 777-300ER interior configuration vs. Air Canada. AC has over a 100 seat advantage over ANA - and the market won't sustain 3x business class seats vs. today. The US/Canada-premium market are two complete different planets in terms of demand and yield.

I get it, you would get giddy to see a Japanese tail land in YYZ - but doesn't always make good business sense.
 
raylee67
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:16 pm

JAL served YYZ back in the early 1990s. Apparently at that time it did not work out. I did not know what plane they used though for the route at that time. I just remember seeing them putting up advertisement in newspapers for the service.

Now NH is probably quite content with their relationship with AC to support YYZ. Do they have JV arrangement with AC on the route? If NH does have JV arrangement, then there's no need for it to fly with their own metal.

I wish JAL will open YYZ with 788. It should work.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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whywhyzee
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:48 pm

It has been noted on this site in previous threads that the issue isn't that the flight isn't viable, it probably would be, especially on the strength of YYZ's international growth over the past few years. The issue is the lack of HND slots, when more are released before the Tokyo Olympics, it's highly likely one or both will gain a pair allocated to Canada and begin YYZ service. YYZ is also slot controlled, so a Japanese carrier would have to obtain a slot pair as well in coordination with their own, which itself is a challenge.

Furthermore, Japan simply isn't a massive destination to and from YYZ, AC serves it pretty well with a daily year round 400 seat 77W to HND and a daily seasonal 763 via YYC to NRT. That's over 600 seats each way daily during the peak season, which is more then most. Considering YYZ has extensive service to most other large Asian cities, it seems reasonable.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:48 pm

It has been noted on this site in previous threads that the issue isn't that the flight isn't viable, it probably would be, especially on the strength of YYZ's international growth over the past few years. The issue is the lack of HND slots, when more are released before the Tokyo Olympics, it's highly likely one or both will gain a pair allocated to Canada and begin YYZ service. YYZ is also slot controlled, so a Japanese carrier would have to obtain a slot pair as well in coordination with their own, which itself is a challenge.

Furthermore, Japan simply isn't a massive destination to and from YYZ, AC serves it pretty well with a daily year round 400 seat 77W to HND and a daily seasonal 763 via YYC to NRT. That's over 600 seats each way daily during the peak season, which is more then most. Considering YYZ has extensive service to most other large Asian cities, it seems reasonable.
 
master14225
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:19 pm

My reasoning's is that YYZ has become a hub to fly from Japan to not only Canada but the US too. NH could also use YYZ to let travelers fly to Caribbean or south american countries instead of a US airport.

flyyul wrote:
master14225 wrote:
NH could do a NRT-YYZ while AC keeps YYZ-HND. Also NH could also do a JV w AC as CA has a JV with AC.


What advantage would ANA have over AC in this situation? AC flies directly from the preferred airport and the natural yield base of the market - ANA would be left with a much inferior product and schedule offering. There's a reason why AC doesn't fly NRT-YYZ today.

Reading your posts on this subject has become a bit comical. Do some research, look at the ANA 777-300ER interior configuration vs. Air Canada. AC has over a 100 seat advantage over ANA - and the market won't sustain 3x business class seats vs. today. The US/Canada-premium market are two complete different planets in terms of demand and yield.

I get it, you would get giddy to see a Japanese tail land in YYZ - but doesn't always make good business sense.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:52 pm

master14225 wrote:
If IAD and IAH can be served by NH, I think it's a joke that neither NH or JAL serves YYZ.


This is an incredibly simplistic and un-informed statement.

First off, the US and Canada have different agreements with Japan. Canada is much more protective of Air Canada and the US has a more libertarian approach.

Second, Japan is a much larger trade partner with the US than Canada.

Third, YYZ is saturated with Asian carriers. IAH and IAD are not as much. IAD is still a massive market to Asia and IAH has fare premiums that very few airports can touch thanks to oil and marine traffic.
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EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:59 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
master14225 wrote:
If IAD and IAH can be served by NH, I think it's a joke that neither NH or JAL serves YYZ.


This is an incredibly simplistic and un-informed statement.

First off, the US and Canada have different agreements with Japan. Canada is much more protective of Air Canada and the US has a more libertarian approach.

This has been mentioned before and proven false before in posts that you literally just scrolled past, we need to stop spreading false information like this around. Japan and Canada have very few, if any, flight restrictions in place. In that Canada is equal to the US. Desireable airports, like HND, are *slot* restricted, but that is not the same as route restrictions - it just means ANA and JAL chose where they fly to from HND more selectively. The things keeping Japanese carriers out are not related to Canada's protective approach.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Second, Japan is a much larger trade partner with the US than Canada.

This is vague, do you mean they are larger proportionate to country size? Because obviously since the US is a larger country Japan will have a larger presence overall - but what matters is what amount of Japanese businesses operate close to airports relative to other airports.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:13 am

flyyul wrote:
ANA would be left with a much inferior product

Not objecting anything else but this statement (yes just this short one) is just uneducated comments. Flown both and ANA easily beats AC by miles. Arguably ANA has one of the best products, soft and hard, in the sky.

Michael
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:49 am

The US has much more liberal aviation agreements than Canada.

Canada has an Open Skies agreement with the US, but it clearly benefits Canadian carriers as Point of Sale is heavily skewed to Canada.

The great liberals in Canada are the ultimate hypocrites in protecting Air Canada. Typical Socialist policy.

Canada demands open borders and hates Trump, yet refuses to open skies as it hurts Canadian Carriers. Similar to NAFTA where Canada wants to dump everything on the US, but has 300% tariffs on US Dairy products.

Typical liberal socialists! It’s our way or the highway and we will cherry pick what we want. If you don’t like it, the media is in bed with us.

The loser is the consumer.
 
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Polot
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:04 am

master14225 wrote:
My reasoning's is that YYZ has become a hub to fly from Japan to not only Canada but the US too. NH could also use YYZ to let travelers fly to Caribbean or south american countries instead of a US airport.

Passengers can do that today with NH’s star partner AC. The airline that, you know, actually has the hub at YYZ.
 
EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:12 am

nomorerjs wrote:
The US has much more liberal aviation agreements than Canada.

Canada has an Open Skies agreement with the US, but it clearly benefits Canadian carriers as Point of Sale is heavily skewed to Canada.

The great liberals in Canada are the ultimate hypocrites in protecting Air Canada. Typical Socialist policy.

Canada demands open borders and hates Trump, yet refuses to open skies as it hurts Canadian Carriers. Similar to NAFTA where Canada wants to dump everything on the US, but has 300% tariffs on US Dairy products.

Typical liberal socialists! It’s our way or the highway and we will cherry pick what we want. If you don’t like it, the media is in bed with us.

The loser is the consumer.

It amazes me how many people come into threads, read nothing, assume facts they don't know to be true, and then carry on.

You can argue all you want about Canadian protectionism, clearly it's a sore point for you, but that doesn't apply in this situation. There are no restrictions between Japan and Canada for flights, beyond the slot limitations in the airports they fly from (which applies to every other route they fly on as well).

If you're going to bother ranting, at least present something factually accurate instead of wasting our time with pointless drivel.
 
EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:27 am

eamondzhang wrote:
flyyul wrote:
ANA would be left with a much inferior product

Not objecting anything else but this statement (yes just this short one) is just uneducated comments. Flown both and ANA easily beats AC by miles. Arguably ANA has one of the best products, soft and hard, in the sky.

Michael

You misunderstood his comment. He was saying that ANA would be forced to fly from NRT (the less desirable airport), which would degrade the product offering overall for business travellers compared to what AC is offering.

And I've also flown on both, and given what I'm seeing with your comments - it's clearly all a matter of opinion. Mine is that ANA offers s lovely soft product, but its hard product isn't as good as ACs. On balance, I wouldn't choose either on the product, I'd choose them on schedule and route.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:50 am

whywhyzee wrote:
It has been noted on this site in previous threads that the issue isn't that the flight isn't viable, it probably would be, especially on the strength of YYZ's international growth over the past few years. The issue is the lack of HND slots, when more are released before the Tokyo Olympics, it's highly likely one or both will gain a pair allocated to Canada and begin YYZ service. YYZ is also slot controlled, so a Japanese carrier would have to obtain a slot pair as well in coordination with their own, which itself is a challenge.

Furthermore, Japan simply isn't a massive destination to and from YYZ, AC serves it pretty well with a daily year round 400 seat 77W to HND and a daily seasonal 763 via YYC to NRT. That's over 600 seats each way daily during the peak season, which is more then most. Considering YYZ has extensive service to most other large Asian cities, it seems reasonable.


Would YYZ be a premium destination? While a 400-seat plane goes to HND daily on AC, JFK only gets 456 daily seats to HND, although 133 of those are F and J (NH is F8-J68-W24-Y112 and JL F8-J49-W40-Y147). YYZ basically gets 40 J seats each day to HND, while JFK gets 117 seats daily, even though supposedly Toronto is Canada's center of economics. When more slots are opened up, I could see JL or NH starting out with a B789.

Curious, is NH's 212-seat B77W configuration the most premium of any wide-body in the world operating with an economy class? As for degrading the product by going to NRT, I don't see how that is relevant since JFK also gets the same 456 seats to NRT on the same general planes - a 212-seat NH B77W and a 244-seat JL B77W. (NH's Y seat is basically UA's Y+ seat, even on the 3-4-3 planes, only 17" wide but with 34" seat pitch). I could see YYZ being done on a 215-seat B789, no F but 48 J seats.
 
EChid
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:56 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
It has been noted on this site in previous threads that the issue isn't that the flight isn't viable, it probably would be, especially on the strength of YYZ's international growth over the past few years. The issue is the lack of HND slots, when more are released before the Tokyo Olympics, it's highly likely one or both will gain a pair allocated to Canada and begin YYZ service. YYZ is also slot controlled, so a Japanese carrier would have to obtain a slot pair as well in coordination with their own, which itself is a challenge.

Furthermore, Japan simply isn't a massive destination to and from YYZ, AC serves it pretty well with a daily year round 400 seat 77W to HND and a daily seasonal 763 via YYC to NRT. That's over 600 seats each way daily during the peak season, which is more then most. Considering YYZ has extensive service to most other large Asian cities, it seems reasonable.


Would YYZ be a premium destination? While a 400-seat plane goes to HND daily on AC, JFK only gets 456 daily seats to HND, although 133 of those are F and J (NH is F8-J68-W24-Y112 and JL F8-J49-W40-Y147). YYZ basically gets 40 J seats each day to HND, while JFK gets 117 seats daily, even though supposedly Toronto is Canada's center of economics. When more slots are opened up, I could see JL or NH starting out with a B789.

Curious, is NH's 212-seat B77W configuration the most premium of any wide-body in the world operating with an economy class? As for degrading the product by going to NRT, I don't see how that is relevant since JFK also gets the same 456 seats to NRT on the same general planes - a 212-seat NH B77W and a 244-seat JL B77W. (NH's Y seat is basically UA's Y+ seat, even on the 3-4-3 planes, only 17" wide but with 34" seat pitch). I could see YYZ being done on a 215-seat B789, no F but 48 J seats.

Well, ANA also sends that same 77W to PEK as well. I think it's hard to compare NRT>YYZ and NRT>JFK. The reality is that it may well be JFK o/d the enables the same plane to be used for a different airport (also, I don't think ANA has too many variations of that plane). It's long been held that YYZ is the most premium market in Canada, but still not that premium. LH specifically determined not to fly their F equipped planes to YYZ.

Perhaps once ANA has tidied up their RR engine issue on the 787s and has more high-density 77Ws (they're going to 10 abreast) we'll see them come to Toronto. Until then, I'm sure they're happy to simply get all the connecting traffic in Tokyo.
 
notconcerned
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:22 am

master14225 wrote:
NH could do a NRT-YYZ while AC keeps YYZ-HND. Also NH could also do a JV w AC as CA has a JV with AC.


There's very little that AC can offer to NH that UA doesn't already provide, besides a few prairie and Atlantic cities in Canada. AC has decided to work closely with CX than NH/OZ/CA for its onward Asia connections.

master14225 wrote:
My reasoning's is that YYZ has become a hub to fly from Japan to not only Canada but the US too. NH could also use YYZ to let travelers fly to Caribbean or south american countries instead of a US airport.


Caribbean (just like prairie and Atlantic cities) are very small markets for NH, especially the premium business demand which is what NH is configured for.

EChid wrote:
Well, ANA also sends that same 77W to PEK as well. I think it's hard to compare NRT>YYZ and NRT>JFK. The reality is that it may well be JFK o/d the enables the same plane to be used for a different airport (also, I don't think ANA has too many variations of that plane). It's long been held that YYZ is the most premium market in Canada, but still not that premium. LH specifically determined not to fly their F equipped planes to YYZ.


Exactly, CX and AF also don't deploy F to YYZ. And BA only has 1 out of 2 flights with F.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:44 am

EChid wrote:
You misunderstood his comment. He was saying that ANA would be forced to fly from NRT (the less desirable airport), which would degrade the product offering overall for business travellers compared to what AC is offering.

And I've also flown on both, and given what I'm seeing with your comments - it's clearly all a matter of opinion. Mine is that ANA offers s lovely soft product, but its hard product isn't as good as ACs. On balance, I wouldn't choose either on the product, I'd choose them on schedule and route.

This is fairer, I know the general concept being NRT is inferior to HND; howver given the options and especially depend on whereabout in Tokyo one is heading to, NRT could be far easier to reach than HND will ever have (and not to mention the guaranteed seat limited express train NRT has versus sardine can subway that HND has).

And yes it's all a matter of opinion - having said that though I personally don't think ANA's product is outdated although I know they've been using the same seat for the past 10 years.

EChid wrote:
Well, ANA also sends that same 77W to PEK as well. I think it's hard to compare NRT>YYZ and NRT>JFK. The reality is that it may well be JFK o/d the enables the same plane to be used for a different airport (also, I don't think ANA has too many variations of that plane). It's long been held that YYZ is the most premium market in Canada, but still not that premium. LH specifically determined not to fly their F equipped planes to YYZ.

Perhaps once ANA has tidied up their RR engine issue on the 787s and has more high-density 77Ws (they're going to 10 abreast) we'll see them come to Toronto. Until then, I'm sure they're happy to simply get all the connecting traffic in Tokyo.

ANA uses the same 77W to PEK more for freight and operational reasons than they really have that amount of premium passengers. Just like CX using their 77W regionally or AC domestically. Also ANA has no plan to retrofit more international configed 77Ws into 10 seater anytime soon; it's another story for the soon-to-join domestic birds though.

Michael
 
continental004
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:57 pm

nomorerjs wrote:
The US has much more liberal aviation agreements than Canada.

Canada has an Open Skies agreement with the US, but it clearly benefits Canadian carriers as Point of Sale is heavily skewed to Canada.

The great liberals in Canada are the ultimate hypocrites in protecting Air Canada. Typical Socialist policy.

Canada demands open borders and hates Trump, yet refuses to open skies as it hurts Canadian Carriers. Similar to NAFTA where Canada wants to dump everything on the US, but has 300% tariffs on US Dairy products.

Typical liberal socialists! It’s our way or the highway and we will cherry pick what we want. If you don’t like it, the media is in bed with us.

The loser is the consumer.


You mad?
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:43 pm

notconcerned wrote:
master14225 wrote:
NH could do a NRT-YYZ while AC keeps YYZ-HND. Also NH could also do a JV w AC as CA has a JV with AC.


There's very little that AC can offer to NH that UA doesn't already provide, besides a few prairie and Atlantic cities in Canada. AC has decided to work closely with CX than NH/OZ/CA for its onward Asia connections.

master14225 wrote:
My reasoning's is that YYZ has become a hub to fly from Japan to not only Canada but the US too. NH could also use YYZ to let travelers fly to Caribbean or south american countries instead of a US airport.


Caribbean (just like prairie and Atlantic cities) are very small markets for NH, especially the premium business demand which is what NH is configured for.

EChid wrote:
Well, ANA also sends that same 77W to PEK as well. I think it's hard to compare NRT>YYZ and NRT>JFK. The reality is that it may well be JFK o/d the enables the same plane to be used for a different airport (also, I don't think ANA has too many variations of that plane). It's long been held that YYZ is the most premium market in Canada, but still not that premium. LH specifically determined not to fly their F equipped planes to YYZ.


Exactly, CX and AF also don't deploy F to YYZ. And BA only has 1 out of 2 flights with F.


There really aren't many markets left that will lstill support an F class cabin, JFK just so happens to be one of them. I tend to look at YYZ as a tier 2 city when it comes to Premium demand, you have tier 1 cities like Tokyo, NYC, LA, Singapore, London, cities that actually can support an ultra high premium market with First class, and high volumes of it, then there is the second tier, cities like Toronto with considerable premium demand and volume, but not quite the intra high end demand to justify F cabins on every flight.

YYZ excels at offering a great deal of volume, as is evidenced by the international passenger numbers, which make up a significant majority of YYZ's total pax. YYZ is Canada's economic center, which realistically doesn't say much, Canada is a large economy for sure, but it definately isn't a United States or Japan. Remember, the population of the Tokyo metropolitan area is higher then that of all of Canada.

A second TYO-YYZ service would be perfectly served by a 789 from JAL or ANA IMO, would offer the right size for the route, and economics that would work.

Looking at the provided examples, CX is a good one, double daily service, but no F cabin, along side a daily AC service, makes for huge premium volumes, just no F offered. LH is a tough one, seeing as AC also has double daily service on the route, and all of their F class aircraft are larger, while I don't suggest F would be a massive seller, I'm sure it could attract some marginal demand, the question is more along the lines of how much service can the route sustain? Lately, YYZ-Germany has been huge, it'll be ~ 7 daily flights this summer across 3 destination, I think YYZ-FRA could go A380 on LH to compliment the 2 AC 777s, (1x 400 seat 77W and 1x 300 seat 77L) daily on the route. The route has been identified as hugely strong by management, and looking at loads last summer, flights were generally overbooked 2 weeks in advance. AF and BA are very weak at YYZ, however, BA does have F on just about all it's flights, it's generally a 772 or 789, there are very few non F aircraft on the route, except for the past week or two which has seen a few, something I have personally never seen. It's just a question of what they release for sale, in the past, they have always sold F. AF basicially exists to service the leisure market to Paris, any real business demand for France to Canada would be out of Montreal naturally.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, but I feel like it addresses the market dynamics a little bit better out of YYZ so the question can be addressed with a little bit more information in background. Not looking at anyone in particular, just the topic as a whole.
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:33 am

VTCIE wrote:
We cannot expect ANA or JAL to serve YYZ/YUL, the way we cannot expect a Middle Eastern airline to serve Vancouver. Canadian protectionism at work.


OT but since I live in Vancouver, I feel I need to speak out on this...

I think there are a couple of problems with a hypothetical ME3 + TK + ET route to YVR...

-Vancouver to the UAE/Qatar is ~6,400 nm assuming a polar route, and to ADD is an eyewatering 7,200 nm. Only a handful of aircraft can handle that distance (787-9, A350-900, A380, 77L/77W, 747-400). In other words it's a long route. IST is a different story, at only 5,200 nm, TK could easily cover YVR-IST with a 333. But that leads to...
-There aren't very strong business ties between western Canada and the Middle East. Most of the ties, as well as the population originating from that part of the world, live in the eastern U.S. and Canada. Nonstop longhaul flights, especially for something as long as YVR-DXB, excel when there's lots of premium demand between the two destinations, and that means business travel. Emirates charges a premium due to this. In Canada, the closest business ties with the UAE, Qatar, Turkey and Ethiopia are in Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa, not Vancouver.
-When it comes to thru traffic, ME3/TK/ET excel in four areas: Europe-SE Asia, the Indian Subcontinent, western/central Asia and Subsaharan Africa.
--Although Vancouver has a large Indian population, it's mostly working-class (descended from those who worked on the CPR, or Sikh refugees who started coming to BC in the 1980s) and biased towards north India/the Punjab (which means little demand to BOM/HYD/BLR/DAC/CMB/etc). Low-yielding VFR/leisure is extremely price conscious; price is a higher priority than direct vs. non-direct, or whether you get to fly on an A380 or not. On top of this, Indians can travel with whole families in tow so an extra $600pp to fly nonstop YVR-DEL on AC, or an extra $800pp YVR-SEA-DXB-DEL via AS/EK (as opposed to connecting in HKG or PVG) can add up quickly. I'm surprised AC thought there was enough business demand for a nonstop YVR-DEL at all.
--Based on some of the anecdotes I've read here and on other forums, the Vancouver-India market used to be cornered by CX/BA/LH, and now the Chinese carriers (along with KE/AF) have replaced them (especially MU with its extremely discounted fares). Low-yielding traffic doesn't care too much about stopovers, a low price is what matters. Though whether or not it's worth it considering you'd have to transit in a zoo like Shanghai, Beijing or Guangzhou, is up to you to decide. Indian pax from YYJ, YYC and YEG can feed into AC or LH flights (or KL in the case of YEG).
--There's not much business demand between Vancouver and southern India/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka/Pakistan/Maldives, or Africa (either northern or Sub-Saharan) nor are there many residents in BC originating from those parts of the Subcontinent. Again, the majority of the business and personal ties are in Toronto/Montreal. The GTA has a much larger Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Turkish and Ethiopian population than Vancouver. While BC does have a modest South African population, YVR-JNB is such a long distance as to make the prospect absurd.
--BA has strong connections to the Gulf, southern India (Mumbai/Bengaluru), southern Africa (there's also the *A connection via LHR using AC/SA) and Israel. Lufthansa has has a strong network in Turkey, the Caucuses and Ethiopia. KLM/Air France has competitive fares to the Gulf, northern Africa and Mauritius. Travel to Singapore/Thailand/Vietnam is covered by the litany of Chinese carriers, let alone BR/CI/JL/NH/CX/etc. I wouldn't be surprised if BA and LH use this piecemeal premium demand to the Middle East/Africa/India to feed in their daily flights from Vancouver, to London or Frankfurt. CA flies to Pakistan (western carriers pulled out after the 2008 Islamabad truck bombing, and whichever ones remained left Pakistan after the 2014 attack at KHI) and CX flies to Maldives.
-Emirates has been able to make SEA-DXB nonstop work because of the 777-300ER's large cargo capacity; Emirates has a large operations base at DXB, so maintenance parts from Everett can be shipped to Dubai on the flights.
-Passenger comfort (although this isn't a huge deal): Emirates sends its 10-abreast 77Ws to Seattle (the previous second daily 77L flight also meant 10-abreast). CA's 77Ws are 9 abreast, MU's A330s/KLM's 333s/JAL's 787s are only 8 abreast. The 10 abreast aircraft flying out of YVR are suitable (BA/LH 744, or BA 388 in summer). In addition, LH sends A380s to India, and 333s to Dubai (which are 8 abreast). BA sends 744s and 777s (9 abreast) to India and Dubai. On the downside, China Southern/KLM's 789s are 9 abreast.

I don't see a good business case for a nonstop flight from Vancouver to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Istanbul or Addis at the moment. I'd kill to fly on an Emirates A380 though, even in economy.

longhauler wrote:
As predictable .... it didn't take long.I would suggest that Japan is far more "protectionist" of its country's interests than Canada.


That reminds me of a story I heard. In the 80s, the Japanese government was annoyed at all the 5th freedom traffic from Northwest and Pan Am, ferrying people from the U.S. to Asia via Japan (which cannibalized JAL, at the time the state monopoly for international routes).

JAL wanted to open more routes into the U.S., but didn't want to give NW/PA even more slots in return. Someone suggested United (which at the time was domestic-only) be given international rights. JAL thought this was a dandy idea, so the FAA granted United the rights to daily ORD-NRT and daily JFK-HKG; in return, JAL would get the rights to fly NRT-SEA (pulled out in 1992, only recently returned) and NRT-ORD. Thus the start of United's Royal Pacific Service in 1983 (ORD-NRT, JFK-HKG).

United's fleet of 747-100s couldn't do ORD-NRT nonstop, so a fuel stop at Sea-Tac (closest airport to Asia in the contiguous U.S.) was added 6x weekly, and there was 1x weekly ORD-PDX-NRT. As for JFK-HKG, United was waiting for their own DC-10-30/747SP orders (the 747-200 wouldn't arrive until 1987), so they had to borrow DC-10-30s from Canadian Airlines (called CP Air in those days) that had extra fuel tanks to fly YVR-HKG-BKK. Due to the fuel tanks, cargo capacity was restricted on JFK-SEA-HKG flights.

Just as an aside, it's a pity that NW/UA/CP pulled out of Thailand/Philippines, and TG stopped serving Seattle (same with SQ in Vancouver). SQ coming to SEA is a good start.
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:43 am

If we're going to see new flights from YYZ to Tokyo, they'll likely come when HND gets its additional slots for the Olympics.

I've always thought that Kansai has the fewest overseas flights per unit of GDP of any place on earth. Its GDP is bigger than Turkey or the Netherlands, and almost as big as Spain and Australia. The limited connecting opportunities because of the separate international and domestic airports probably plays a big role. I still wonder if a YYZ-KIX flight could work. I'm sceptical since YVR-KIX is still only seasonal, and much of that flight is likely Japanese leisure traffic to BC. Still, it might be a niche opportunity for one of the Japanese airlines if slots at HND are not available for expansion. They'd likely need much less premium-oriented aircraft, though.
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Do neither ANA nor JAL fly to YYZ?

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:33 am

Why is HND waiting for the Olympics? It's not like Tokyo is going to become irrelevant the day after they finish and its equally stupid to postpone it until then when it is crystal clear that they would be just as useful now. Hopefully there are more logical reasons beside this because this has to be one of the more foolish reasons for waiting to add capacity. Protectionism is clearly unproductive both for Canada and for Haneda.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style

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