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cougar15
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close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:20 am

Came across the following on the AvHerald relating to what is seen as a close call between an LH and AV flight at Cali.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c07ecc2&opt=0


VasAviation have since published the ATC exchange involved, which simply frightens me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh9c1UyIrdg


I have a very strong view on ATC communication in local language at international airports and feel it is an accident waiting to happen!

And I have a lot of respect for the AV Pilot telling the controller at Cali to prioritize the LH Flight (9:32 on the YT vid) as he could not understand a word of what was being sayed (in Spanish) making situational awareness for him almost impossible. Is local language in such circumstances not a major disaster in the making?
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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leleko747
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:59 am

I don't think the use of Spanish was a bad factor here. The controller's poor English was. She was clearly overstressed too, with too many flights to handle at once.
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
jfk777
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:08 pm

what was a Lufthansa plane doing near Cali, Colombia ? LH doesn't fly to Cali they fly to BOG. Was it a Cargo LH going to Quito perhaps ?
 
asdf
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:13 pm

jfk777 wrote:
what was a Lufthansa plane doing near Cali, Colombia ? LH doesn't fly to Cali they fly to BOG. Was it a Cargo LH going to Quito perhaps ?


"...A Lufthansa Airbus A340-600, registration D-AIHC performing flight LH-542 from Frankfurt/Main (Germany) to Bogota (Colombia), needed to divert to Cali (Colombia) due to weather in Bogota....
"
 
asuflyer
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:21 pm

The controller was completely inept and overwhelmed at handling the amount of aircraft in her airspace, even in Spanish. She also didn’t even give full hold instructions to any aircraft. It’s been over 20 years since the crash of AA965 in CLO in which ATC failed to query aircraft position due to a lack of English and unfortunately it shows that the ATC and English competence are still not up to ICAO standards. Worse is the fact that diversions to CLO from BOG are not uncommon and a similar situation could clearly occur again.
 
flyinTLow
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:30 pm

cougar15 wrote:
Came across the following on the AvHerald relating to what is seen as a close call between an LH and AV flight at Cali.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c07ecc2&opt=0


VasAviation have since published the ATC exchange involved, which simply frightens me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh9c1UyIrdg



I have a very strong view on ATC communication in local language at international airports and feel it is an accident waiting to happen!

And I have a lot of respect for the AV Pilot telling the controller at Cali to prioritize the LH Flight (9:32 on the YT vid) as he could not understand a word of what was being sayed (in Spanish) making situational awareness for him almost impossible. Is local language in such circumstances not a major disaster in the making?


Not to be snooty but ATC especially in South America can be very challenging to say the least. But what makes this incident a perfect example, no matter how much traffic the controller she had: she never followed basic rules of radio communications in a disciplined manner. Simply ALWAYS say the call sign first, and no matter whether you understand the content of the clearance, you at least know who it was for. She thought she could "save time" by simply replying affirm. But this is not solely a South American issue. You have that every day in the US as well. If you want to hear good controllers, listen to Heathrow approach which mentions all the units for every clearance as well: "Maintain 280 knots", "descend down altitude 4000 feet QNH 10 decimal 13 millibars" etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

flyinTLow
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
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balz18
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:58 pm

I think that it is fair to say that listening to this as a pilot scared the hell out of me. I understand using the local language, believe me I do, but at an international airport all that is doing is causing situational awareness (for those who do not speak the local language) to either be limited or near non-existent. Ultimately the real hero's in this situation are the OceanAir and Avianca crews that saw the this unfolding and took actions themselves to attempt to assist and further more tell the controller what she was doing wrong.
First class or no class...
 
sccutler
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:02 pm

Appreciate the extra efforts other pilots made to bring clarity.

We gotta be careful up there, folks, and that's a fact! We're blessed to have remarkable controllers here in the DFW area.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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klm617
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:31 pm

With English being the universal language of aviation why is this controller giving instructions in Spanish. Also how was she even able to get an ATC controllers job without being proficient in English. In this indecent she should be removed from duty as she can clearly not handle a situation like this.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
djvalume
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:32 pm

flyinTLow wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
"QNH 10 decimal 13 millibars"



way too funny
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:22 pm

asdf wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
what was a Lufthansa plane doing near Cali, Colombia ? LH doesn't fly to Cali they fly to BOG. Was it a Cargo LH going to Quito perhaps ?


"...A Lufthansa Airbus A340-600, registration D-AIHC performing flight LH-542 from Frankfurt/Main (Germany) to Bogota (Colombia), needed to divert to Cali (Colombia) due to weather in Bogota....
"


And the primary alternate (MDE) was closed because of a fake bomb threat.
 
flyinTLow
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:24 pm

djvalume wrote:
flyinTLow wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
"QNH 10 decimal 13 millibars"



way too funny


Not funny. It is professional and should be the only way to go. Unfortunately we are long ways from that anywhere else in this world.

There is another habbit used at FRA Approach, where it is NO RULE to be clear, but just a matter of habbit where altitudes are always said in thousands and speeds are said in tens (= descend altitude 4-thousand, reduce speed 2-fifty). It reduces the likeihood of getting those mixed up, in my opinion a good idea. But still a far way from London.

I am not saying that US controllers are bad, but they are beyong sloppy when it comes to ATC as well. There is a standard phrasiology that should be used which they do not stick to either, making it hard for someone not at heart with the English language complicated to understand the intension behing the clearance.
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
kalvado
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:29 pm

flyinTLow wrote:
djvalume wrote:
flyinTLow wrote:



way too funny


Not funny. It is professional and should be the only way to go. Unfortunately we are long ways from that anywhere else in this world.

There is another habbit used at FRA Approach, where it is NO RULE to be clear, but just a matter of habbit where altitudes are always said in thousands and speeds are said in tens (= descend altitude 4-thousand, reduce speed 2-fifty). It reduces the likeihood of getting those mixed up, in my opinion a good idea. But still a far way from London.

I am not saying that US controllers are bad, but they are beyong sloppy when it comes to ATC as well. There is a standard phrasiology that should be used which they do not stick to either, making it hard for someone not at heart with the English language complicated to understand the intension behing the clearance.

Fine print: 10.13 millibars corresponds to the altitude of about 26 km/ 85 k feet.
 
Etheereal
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:32 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The controller was completely inept and overwhelmed at handling the amount of aircraft in her airspace, even in Spanish. She also didn’t even give full hold instructions to any aircraft. It’s been over 20 years since the crash of AA965 in CLO in which ATC failed to query aircraft position due to a lack of English and unfortunately it shows that the ATC and English competence are still not up to ICAO standards. Worse is the fact that diversions to CLO from BOG are not uncommon and a similar situation could clearly occur again.

I thought AA crash was due a mistake from the crew by using the wrong waypoint on their FMC and went straight into a mountain.
 
flyinTLow
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:27 pm

kalvado wrote:
Fine print: 10.13 millibars corresponds to the altitude of about 26 km/ 85 k feet.


Oops, of course, my bad! :white:
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
pipeafcr
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Interestingly enough the Colombian government has stated that the security of the airport and flights was never endangered, however this might be because people are starting to realize of the ineptness of the current administration and are just not wanting any more backslash (making things worse ofc)
Felipe Carrillo
 
trent772
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:02 pm

pipeafcr wrote:
Interestingly enough the Colombian government has stated that the security of the airport and flights was never endangered, however this might be because people are starting to realize of the ineptness of the current administration and are just not wanting any more backslash (making things worse ofc)


Sure the security of the airport was never affected, it was the safety of at least three flights that was put in jeopardy because of this radar controller, with that level of english proeficiency you have to wonder how this lady holds an ATC Controller license.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:31 pm

Etheereal wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
The controller was completely inept and overwhelmed at handling the amount of aircraft in her airspace, even in Spanish. She also didn’t even give full hold instructions to any aircraft. It’s been over 20 years since the crash of AA965 in CLO in which ATC failed to query aircraft position due to a lack of English and unfortunately it shows that the ATC and English competence are still not up to ICAO standards. Worse is the fact that diversions to CLO from BOG are not uncommon and a similar situation could clearly occur again.

I thought AA crash was due a mistake from the crew by using the wrong waypoint on their FMC and went straight into a mountain.


It was, but ATC issues contributed. Radar was inoperative, so the controller couldn't spot the error. Despite this, he (she?) thought that the pilot's communications were odd, given where they were supposed to be but because of his (her?) limited English couldn't communicate this to the crew. (disclaimer: this is from wikipedia... though I recall something along those lines form when I read the report, many years ago)

Which actually leads me to a question re this recent incident: why was the waypoint not programmed into the LH system? I'm guessing its up to the airline to load the charts and data, but how is ti done (manually entered, or uploaded from somewhere?)
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:34 pm

The crash of TWA flight 514 on December 1, 1974, occurred because of differences in standard phrasing within the same language!

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19741201-0

As I understand it, the differences in terminology led the pilots to believe it was okay to descend, and the controller believed the pilots would follow the standard approach and descend at the appropriate time, as listed on the approach charts. Whatever one believes about "blame" in this case, phraseology was standardized across the U.S. after this accident to ensure that not a shred of doubt is anyone's mind as to what a communication means.

In this case, it sounds like the controller needed more English training before taking on the duties here. Controllers need to be trained as much as pilots, and scenarios need to be run, such as this.
 
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klm617
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:27 am

trent772 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Interestingly enough the Colombian government has stated that the security of the airport and flights was never endangered, however this might be because people are starting to realize of the ineptness of the current administration and are just not wanting any more backslash (making things worse ofc)


Sure the security of the airport was never affected, it was the safety of at least three flights that was put in jeopardy because of this radar controller, with that level of english proeficiency you have to wonder how this lady holds an ATC Controller license.


As things go in these parts of the world she probably somebody or paid somebody off to get her license and subsequent job as a air traffic controller
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:30 am

Kind of reminds me of the KLM Pan Am disaster in Tenerife but only it was on the ground.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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cougar15
Topic Author
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:01 am

trent772 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Interestingly enough the Colombian government has stated that the security of the airport and flights was never endangered, however this might be because people are starting to realize of the ineptness of the current administration and are just not wanting any more backslash (making things worse ofc)


Sure the security of the airport was never affected, it was the safety of at least three flights that was put in jeopardy because of this radar controller, with that level of english proeficiency you have to wonder how this lady holds an ATC Controller license.


I wonder about that too, one hand they say they say there was no danger, yet an investigation has been opened. That rather contradicts itself!
LH called her 4 times in English without reply, yet she replied to the AV flight following LH that was still further out (in Spanish) straight away.
The lady obviously does not like talking English judging by what I am reading/hearing in the transcripts under the video, The Oceanair guys also called her in English 4 times in without response, yet as soon as they switched to Spanish, the response was instant!

I don´t like picking on ATC, this was an extremly stressful environment due to the circumstances, but it was also one of the worst examples of a controller I have ever come across!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Bhoy
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:33 am

cougar15 wrote:
I have a very strong view on ATC communication in local language at international airports and feel it is an accident waiting to happen!

It's happened before - see this report: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -b-133728/
 
clo1973
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:27 pm

It´s been a while since I have had to read such a pile of BS in a thread of a.net....

One of the person posting a comment try to correlate this with the current Colombian President, other brings to the table the 1995 crash of an AA plane putting incorrectly the
blame on ATC when in fact it was pilot error, and other posts implies that the ATC "bought" her license somewhere (clearly ignoring the professionalism of Aerocivil).

And lastly, all of the people posting has passed the fact that the LH pilot had no idea of the "Manga" approach to CLO, which is a concern because one would imagine that once the LH plane
is diverted to CLO (30 minutes flight time) someone on the crew would take a close look at the navigational charts of CLO to become some how familiar with them.
 
clo1973
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 pm

Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:28 pm

It´s been a while since I have had to read such a pile of BS in a thread of a.net....

One of the person posting a comment try to correlate this with the current Colombian President, other brings to the table the 1995 crash of an AA plane putting incorrectly the
blame on ATC when in fact it was pilot error, and other posts implies that the ATC "bought" her license somewhere (clearly ignoring the professionalism of Aerocivil).

And lastly, all of the people posting has passed the fact that the LH pilot had no idea of the "Manga" approach to CLO, which is a concern because one would imagine that once the LH plane
is diverted to CLO (30 minutes flight time) someone on the crew would take a close look at the navigational charts of CLO to become some how familiar with them.
 
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LTU932
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
With English being the universal language of aviation why is this controller giving instructions in Spanish.
Because many countries allow communication with local or other carriers in Spanish here in Central America. Maybe it is a pride issue, I dunno. Here in Costa Rica, Spanish is used with Spanish speaking carriers and English for the rest, just as Colombia and our neighbouring countries do, or even if you go to on Live ATC or use your scanner and try to dial in Central America Control. France uses French with local and French language carriers and English with the rest, although I believe Switzerland uses only English (probably due to their nature as a multilingual country). No idea if French is used in Canadian ATC, I never listened to any ATC from YUL.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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zeke
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Re: close call LH vs AV? ATC Issue??

Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:13 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The controller was completely inept and overwhelmed at handling the amount of aircraft in her airspace, even in Spanish. She also didn’t even give full hold instructions to any aircraft. It’s been over 20 years since the crash of AA965 in CLO in which ATC failed to query aircraft position due to a lack of English and unfortunately it shows that the ATC and English competence are still not up to ICAO standards. Worse is the fact that diversions to CLO from BOG are not uncommon and a similar situation could clearly occur again.


I think she was doing ok, had a lot of additional traffic due to diversions.

Too many pilots were making unnecessary radio calls, when it gets super busy everyone needs to be sharp and succinct. Wait your turn. LH made a number of calls that were over transmitted.

She was just trying to stack everyone at 1000 ft vertical spacing and then bring them in.
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