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skipness1E
Posts: 4290
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:42 am

Pure clickbait.
Flybe have nothing of value worth buying.
How many times has SRB pulled this stunt? Why do these boards have the memory span of a demetia afflicted goldfish mere moments from going tango-uniform?

BA know all about the challenges of regional flying, that’s why they retreated to London. flybe is the remnants of BACON with purple paint. BA do their own feed to LHR with A320 series, they’re NOT gonna be switching to Q400s. They have one of their highest bases at LCY, flybe are superfluous to that as well.

If Virgin (and SRB has almost ZERO input now) think they can make money feeding MAN-LAS from ABZ then give it a go, but am not sure Delta would sign it off.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:24 am

I tend to think that a Virgin Atlantic and flybe group would be very benificial to both parties.

It increases the scale of the overall operation, would provide opportunities to reduce duplication and increase efficiency, but the chance to better align the network would certainly be a significant step for them both.

Overall, as others have pointed out, I do tend to think that MAN would see the biggest potential benefit from this. It would strengthen the long haul value proposition for VS, creating a platform for an increased route network.

MAN is certainly no LHR, but it has a lot more potential than it already has unlocked.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:38 am

BA should not even be allowed to place a bid.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:01 am

IAG could very easily acquire the brand without any dealings with BA - They are after all a holding company with brands operating in variety of market segments, including two legacies within the same global alliance, a lower cost un aligned TALC and European carrier serving the island of Ireland a transnational flexible fares carrier (with a rather poor reputation) operating from Spain Italy and The Netherlands. Plus a virtual brand in Level with differing service goals in Spain France and Austria.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:25 am

They have the most slots at Schiphol after KLM easyjey and transavia. They had 12.500 slots in 2017 i read somewhere.
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:35 am

DL747400 wrote:
BA should not even be allowed to place a bid.


If true which I find very doubtful it would be IAG making a bid not BA!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:49 am

Aisak [/quote]
Hopefully MAN can become a real hub. Seeing all those routes I remember bmi and its regional brand. They could have achieve a real MAN hub as they were banned to the US from LHR.

MAN sees some DL service and has a sizeable VS base and unlike BA, this feed won’t take away Virgin’s own traffic at London.

VS is now considered a UK airline [/quote]

Who are you referring too when you state ''as they were banned to the US From Heathrow''?

''MAN sees some DL service''!

MAN no longer sees any DL service at least not with it's own aircraft, ATL and JFK are purely on VS metal with the DL codeshare!

''VS is now considered a U.K. airline''?

In what way do you mean by NOW, it's always been considered a UK airline and despite it's recent investment by DL and AF/KL it's still considered a U.K. airline as it always has been!
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:04 am

8herveg wrote:
Cunard wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Out of interest, why would they order the A220, when they already have the E195? I know they’re getting rid of those in the next couple of years, but why not keep them (if they need something of this capacity) as they have the same amount of seats don’t they?


Bit of naive question to be totally honest as the subject of Flybe's E195s have been brought up in these forums on many occasion.

The E195s will be gone by the end of next year and Flybe only have three examples which are on very expensive leases so why on Earth would they be retained in the fleet.

If they were to be replaced in the advent of a takeover by Virgin then the A220 series would be an absolutely perfect replacement aircraft.




Are you always rude with all of your responses?

Sometimes people miss things hence asking questions on a FORUM.

A simple, polite answer would have been easy and appreciated.


Well I sincerely apologise then if I personally upset you but the reason that I responded in the way that I did and it might have come across as being rather rude in my response but to be honest it has surprised me, I think to myself what's happened recently as this guy used to be on the ball before!

Apologies :-)
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
avier
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:08 am

As an outsider, I don't know know the exact dynamics of the UK air travel market and environment.

So I am trying to understand what makes this large regional airline in a lucrative market so unattractive as stated by many here?
They have decent slots and seem to fly routes with little competition.

From cost structure POV, what is it that pinches most in the UK regional market? Employee cost? Airport Charges? Fuel? High Taxes? or what?

I come from Asia, so employee cost is almost mostly not the case in South Asia, as they are paid low wages comparatively. What pinches here is the very high tax on fuel (and other aviation services like MX) and underpricing , that hurts the airlines here. Along with capacity dumping with all airlines operating larger A320's, 737's on most routes.

So whats it in the UK that hurts the most for regional airlines? And what way could that be worked out(cost reduction) if being acquired by a larger airline with a well established lean structure.
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:50 am

There are many reasons why Flybe are in the situation they currently find themselves in and this has been building up over the last few years to the point where they have declared that the airline is for sale but APD as in expensive Air Passenger Duty plays a big part in this ''amongst many other factors'' especially within the U.K. domestic market.

There is a demand within the market for which Flybe serves but with mismanagement of the airline over the last few years this has resulted in the inevitable situation that the airline currently finds itself in.

Flybe either needs to find a suitable investor or it needs to find a buyer ASAP who can hopefully turn around the fortunes of the airline but as much as VS have stated that they have shown an interest in acquiring the airline well until that's officially confirmed we can more or less take that with a large pinch of salt as is usually the case with anything concerning Sir Richard Branson.

This topic is going to be a very interesting one to follow over the next few weeks, it's a case of ''will she or won't she'' :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Rudenko
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:38 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:07 am

8herveg wrote:
Cunard wrote:
8herveg wrote:
Out of interest, why would they order the A220, when they already have the E195? I know they’re getting rid of those in the next couple of years, but why not keep them (if they need something of this capacity) as they have the same amount of seats don’t they?


Bit of naive question to be totally honest as the subject of Flybe's E195s have been brought up in these forums on many occasion.

The E195s will be gone by the end of next









year and Flybe only have three examples which are on very expensive leases so why on Earth would they be retained in the fleet.

If they were to be replaced in the advent of a takeover by Virgin then the A220 series would be an absolutely perfect replacement aircraft.


Are you always rude with all of your responses?

Sometimes people miss things hence asking questions on a FORUM.

A simple, polite answer would have been easy and appreciated.


8Herveg, it’s a shame as your posts are always spot on.
Don’t let this certain troll get to you, that’s what he wants ( as pretty evident in most of his posts)
Anyway, back to the topic...
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 am

Usually spot on hence my previous comment!

I'm not a bleeding troll if you care to read all of my informative posts, do you actually know what the meaning of a Troll is?

A Troll is someone who partakes in forums and who has absolutely no interest in the actual subject being discussed but are there just to make comments that are not associated with the actual subject, that does not describe me at all.

When someone usually calls someone a Troll on these forums it's usually when that person doesn't agree with what that person says in a similar way to the DONALD denouncing the media as Fake News so I'd appreciate it if you grew up and actually contribute something to the discussion or are you actually being a TROLL!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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Channex757
Posts: 2134
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:26 pm

Behind a paywall unfortunately

IAG are in the bidding.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... be-rescue/ The title says it all, really...
 
mullac30
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:45 pm

I can see IAG using BEs crew and AOC to launch a Level UK subsidiary using 321s and 330s, like what they did with BA Openskies.
 
pdp
Posts: 120
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:12 pm

mullac30 wrote:
I can see IAG using BEs crew and AOC to launch a Level UK subsidiary using 321s and 330s, like what they did with BA Openskies.


How do you get from a regional turboprop-based carrier a European/long haul budget carrier. Bearing in mind outside of LHR you have:

  • Ryanair
  • Wizz Air
  • easyJet
  • TUI
  • Thomas Cook
  • Jet2
  • Norwegian

There isn't room for another LCC unless something radical changes. Plus IAG don't need to buy an airline for the AOC, I'm sure they can afford to set a new one up.

With Shuttle already being a thing in the UK, I can see the CMA getting rather het-up about BA buying out one of its largest competitors.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:28 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Flybe have nothing of value worth buying.

I usually read your posts and nod 'Skipness', but don't you think there is some 'strategic' future value here for IAG/BA ?

1. Possible economies in engineering with BACF Embraer fleet.
2. Passenger growth figures at BHX and MAN have been astounding over the last decade since 'BA Connect' was disposed of; (BHX up from 9.2M to 13M,
MAN up from 22M to 28M); maybe IAG/BA feel they want a piece of that pie again. Its true BHX and MAN are 'regional' airports, but they are also massive
economies in their own right. BA have to look for future growth opportunities somewhere, maybe UK markets #2 and #3 have some future merit for them.
3. I am constantly told that SOU is a profitable unit in isolation. If true I do not know, but thats what I'm told.
4. Instantly available and cheaper pilot pool to re-train as BA/IAG see fit.


skipness1E wrote:
Flybe is the remnants of BACON with purple paint.

.....very funny !!!!!

skipness1E wrote:
BA do their own feed to LHR with A320 series, they’re NOT gonna be switching to Q400s. They have one of their highest bases at LCY, flybe are superfluous to that as well.

True, but maybe some 'marginal' A319/320 BA services from LHR become more profitable using BE E-jet flying.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:37 pm

Cunard wrote:
Aisak wrote:
Hopefully MAN can become a real hub. Seeing all those routes I remember bmi and its regional brand. They could have achieve a real MAN hub as they were banned to the US from LHR.


Who are you referring too when you state ''as they were banned to the US From Heathrow''?

Pretty clear Aisak is talking about bmi (actually, British Midland at the time they set it up, with the interim rebrand to bmi british midland international coming with the lauch of the TATL routes), who set up their TATL operations to IAD and ORD ex-MAN, because they couldn't operate TATL from LHR as Bermuda II precluded it at the time.
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:52 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Cunard wrote:
Aisak wrote:
Hopefully MAN can become a real hub. Seeing all those routes I remember bmi and its regional brand. They could have achieve a real MAN hub as they were banned to the US from LHR.


Who are you referring too when you state ''as they were banned to the US From Heathrow''?

Pretty clear Aisak is talking about bmi (actually, British Midland at the time they set it up, with the interim rebrand to bmi british midland international coming with the lauch of the TATL routes), who set up their TATL operations to IAD and ORD ex-MAN, because they couldn't operate TATL from LHR as Bermuda II precluded it at the time.


Bermuda II was abolished for a Common European Open Skies policy in 2008 BMI were still in existence at that time and they had every opportunity to commence Transatlantic from LHR and after years of campaigning for the right to do so they never went ahead with those plans even though they had every right to do so from March 2008 so to say that they were banned from offering flights to the USA from LHR was rather wide of the mark hence why I questioned it!

I'm fully aware of their interim rebranding and their Transatlantic operations based at MAN but by the time that Bermuda II ended in March 2008 the airline had already lost it's direction and as I've already mentioned when the airline finally had the chance to fly to the USA from LHR after years of campaigning to the UK Government about unfair competition they didn't so therefore in the end they were ''not banned'' from doing so hence my comment.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
BOAC1966
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:03 pm

When BA regional gave up domestic operations bar key feeders to LHR and LGW I seem to remember they gave a multi million annual subsidy to flybe. That ceased a couple of yesrs back and flybe have struggled to make decent money for many years. As said BA tried for many years to make non LGW and LHR work despite huge staff involvement to address cost and aircraft utilisation issues. There was no magic formulae .....the demand profile militated against descent numbers year round, within the week and even within the day. The nearest model for success was BHX hub and spoke and possibly a similar one in MAN. A side point BA has never been able to make any longhaul viable outside London. Unless IAG needs slots give flybe a wide berth!
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:20 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:
When BA regional gave up domestic operations bar key feeders to LHR and LGW I seem to remember they gave a multi million annual subsidy to flybe. That ceased a couple of yesrs back and flybe have struggled to make decent money for many years. As said BA tried for many years to make non LGW and LHR work despite huge staff involvement to address cost and aircraft utilisation issues. There was no magic formulae .....the demand profile militated against descent numbers year round, within the week and even within the day. The nearest model for success was BHX hub and spoke and possibly a similar one in MAN. A side point BA has never been able to make any longhaul viable outside London. Unless IAG needs slots give flybe a wide berth!


British Airways retained a 15% interest in Flybe up until 2014 and they had certain code shares with the airline after BACON was sold to Flybe in 2004 but can you elaborate on those ''multi million annual subsidies'' that British Airways had paid to Flybe!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:27 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:
A side point BA has never been able to make any longhaul viable outside London. Unless IAG needs slots give flybe a wide berth!

A little history would be beneficial here.

BA1503/2 MAN-JFK-MAN was profitable. Always was. That 767 used to pull in consistent profits, but the Little Englander type management in BA at the time (below the board level) used to dump costs on to the operation to make it look unappealing. Promotion was sparse at best and some weird accounting tricks didn't properly account for cargo as a separate operation.

Toronto made money but BA got bounced off the route by Canadian competition. LAX wasn't profitable but loads were in the 70% ballpark which for zero advertising was pretty good. Islamabad failed due to politics and danger.

The BA managers wanted everything in London and so did the 767 crews. They allowed the routes to die on the vine with no promotion. I could never reconcile BA failing at longhaul when MAN is sat on the Cheshire Millionaire Belt. Why wasn't there a concerted effort to sell into those towns and villages which at the time were one of the richest areas of Britain?
 
BestWestern
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Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:36 pm

If IAG buy Flybe they will probably have to divest the Heathrow slots again!

Of course IAG are looking at Flybe... sure why not look. Just like Virgin are looking at it.

Does Delta / AFKL want another loss making regional carrier to replicate their KLM and AF Regional service? They have spent years restructuring hop and refleeting Citihopper. They divested CityJet.

If they really want to launch a connecting service to Their ‘up to’ six daily Manchester departures, It’s a huge investment.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:53 pm

BestWestern wrote:
If IAG buy Flybe they will probably have to divest the Heathrow slots again!

Of course IAG are looking at Flybe... sure why not look. Just like Virgin are looking at it.

Does Delta / AFKL want another loss making regional carrier to replicate their KLM and AF Regional service? They have spent years restructuring hop and refleeting Citihopper. They divested CityJet.

If they really want to launch a connecting service to Their ‘up to’ six daily Manchester departures, It’s a huge investment.


That's a very good point that you have brought up regarding the situation about IAG more than likely having to divest the remedy slots at LHR again in any eventuality of them buying Flybe and something that know one has mentioned in this discussion, now I wonder what would happen in that situation.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
sierra3tango
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:59 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:12 pm

Didn't BA buy Dan Air for a quid, or does my memory fail me? Difficult to believe Dan Air had much BA wanted especially in the midst of an economic slowdown in '92.
Didn't pay a lot for BCal either.
Maybe just to take capacity out of the market - the LHR remedy slots would come back to them eventually, who (in their right minds) is going to operate UK domestics out of LHR!?
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:44 pm

sierra3tango wrote:
Didn't BA buy Dan Air for a quid, or does my memory fail me? Difficult to believe Dan Air had much BA wanted especially in the midst of an economic slowdown in '92.
Didn't pay a lot for BCal either.
Maybe just to take capacity out of the market - the LHR remedy slots would come back to them eventually, who (in their right minds) is going to operate UK domestics out of LHR!?


British Airways indeed took over Dan Air for one English pound in 1992, the airline was bust and British Airways took over the airline including it's debts and most of the aircraft especially as Dan Air was in the process of modernising it's fleet with ''new'' B733/B734 which allowed British Airways to expand at LGW, the former B727s were withdrawn and sold as were the BAC 1-11s although British Airways retained several of the 500 series.

British Caledonian approached British Airways in July 1987 about a possible merger, BCAL had found itself in serious financial trouble after the Falklands conflict in 1982 which severally affected it's South American network which was later transferred well what was left of it to British Airways in late 1982. BCAL hit further problems in 1984 with the political unrest in Nigeria which was the airlines most profitable destination and further more when Lybia had severe sanctions put upon it after the Lockerbie incident that squarely put Lybia under the microscope.

BCAL was in dire straights and after no one came forward with a rescue deal the airline once again approached British Airways who eventually took full control of the airline in July 1988 for the value of just £15 million which involved all the airlines assets and route network although several domestic destinations had to be given up at LGW which were acquired by Air UK.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
mullac30
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:07 pm

I don't think that BA/IAG are entirely against domestic and regional links, there's been new successful domestic destinations in the last few years like INV, and of course the Citiflyer links from EDI, MAN .etc .
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2299
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:08 pm

Anything Virgin are interested in, IAG are sure to be interested in too.

I don’t think flyBe offers great interest to BA, of itself. But IAG might take a different view. Other than bmi, IAG has allowed all acquired airlines considerable operational and commercial freedom and grown them.

As one poster has said, the flyBe certificate could be used for a LEVELuk operation. I think flyBe has more value than being a vehicle for IAG’s long haul, low cost ambitions. IAG would only buy something they feel they can turn around and make money from, after all they closed bmibaby and sold bmi Regional.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:08 pm

Cunard wrote:
sierra3tango wrote:
Didn't BA buy Dan Air for a quid, or does my memory fail me? Difficult to believe Dan Air had much BA wanted especially in the midst of an economic slowdown in '92.
Didn't pay a lot for BCal either.
Maybe just to take capacity out of the market - the LHR remedy slots would come back to them eventually, who (in their right minds) is going to operate UK domestics out of LHR!?


British Airways indeed took over Dan Air for one English pound in 1992, the airline was bust and British Airways took over the airline including it's debts and most of the aircraft especially as Dan Air was in the process of modernising it's fleet with ''new'' B733/B734 which allowed British Airways to expand at LGW, the former B727s were withdrawn and sold as were the BAC 1-11s although British Airways retained several of the 500 series.

British Caledonian approached British Airways in July 1987 about a possible merger, BCAL had found itself in serious financial trouble after the Falklands conflict in 1982 which severally affected it's South American network which was later transferred well what was left of it to British Airways in late 1982. BCAL hit further problems in 1984 with the political unrest in Nigeria which was the airlines most profitable destination and further more when Lybia had severe sanctions put upon it after the Lockerbie incident that squarely put Lybia under the microscope.

BCAL was in dire straights and after no one came forward with a rescue deal the airline once again approached British Airways who eventually took full control of the airline in July 1988 for the value of just £15 million which involved all the airlines assets and route network although several domestic destinations had to be given up at LGW which were acquired by Air UK.

Lockerbie was in December '88. If BA took over B-Cal in July '88, how could sanctions on Libya have been a cause?
 
Bhoy
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:13 pm

mullac30 wrote:
I don't think that BA/IAG are entirely against domestic and regional links, there's been new successful domestic destinations in the last few years like INV, and of course the Citiflyer links from EDI, MAN .etc .

The point is that all domestic destinations are either to or from London. There is no longer domestic routes from, say, Birmingham or Manchester to Scotland, and the only flights from the regions to the continent are at the weekend with Cityflyer Embraers that can't use LCY due to the curfew.
 
sierra3tango
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:59 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:24 pm

Cunard wrote:
sierra3tango wrote:
Didn't BA buy Dan Air for a quid, or does my memory fail me? Difficult to believe Dan Air had much BA wanted especially in the midst of an economic slowdown in '92.
Didn't pay a lot for BCal either.
Maybe just to take capacity out of the market - the LHR remedy slots would come back to them eventually, who (in their right minds) is going to operate UK domestics out of LHR!?


British Airways indeed took over Dan Air for one English pound in 1992, the airline was bust and British Airways took over the airline including it's debts and most of the aircraft especially as Dan Air was in the process of modernising it's fleet with ''new'' B733/B734 which allowed British Airways to expand at LGW, the former B727s were withdrawn and sold as were the BAC 1-11s although British Airways retained several of the 500 series.

British Caledonian approached British Airways in July 1987 about a possible merger, BCAL had found itself in serious financial trouble after the Falklands conflict in 1982 which severally affected it's South American network which was later transferred well what was left of it to British Airways in late 1982. BCAL hit further problems in 1984 with the political unrest in Nigeria which was the airlines most profitable destination and further more when Lybia had severe sanctions put upon it after the Lockerbie incident that squarely put Lybia under the microscope.

BCAL was in dire straights and after no one came forward with a rescue deal the airline once again approached British Airways who eventually took full control of the airline in July 1988 for the value of just £15 million which involved all the airlines assets and route network although several domestic destinations had to be given up at LGW which were acquired by Air UK.


Weren't SAS sniffing about in BCal's case? So BA must have outbid them.

Appreciate things are different now, but BA seemed, in those days, to vacuum up a number of very unlikely (BCal excepted) partially/ totally bust, mini competitors Dan Air, BKS, Cambrian, Brymon plus a few I've no doubt long forgotten about.

Maybe they're returning to type? Spoil the other bidders pitch, Stobart included and either pick it up for a quid or buy the interesting parts (whatever those might be) from the liquidator?

Net result consolidate on London and let the regional market sort itself out (al la BMI Baby/ Regional)?
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:46 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Cunard wrote:
sierra3tango wrote:
Didn't BA buy Dan Air for a quid, or does my memory fail me? Difficult to believe Dan Air had much BA wanted especially in the midst of an economic slowdown in '92.
Didn't pay a lot for BCal either.
Maybe just to take capacity out of the market - the LHR remedy slots would come back to them eventually, who (in their right minds) is going to operate UK domestics out of LHR!?


British Airways indeed took over Dan Air for one English pound in 1992, the airline was bust and British Airways took over the airline including it's debts and most of the aircraft especially as Dan Air was in the process of modernising it's fleet with ''new'' B733/B734 which allowed British Airways to expand at LGW, the former B727s were withdrawn and sold as were the BAC 1-11s although British Airways retained several of the 500 series.

British Caledonian approached British Airways in July 1987 about a possible merger, BCAL had found itself in serious financial trouble after the Falklands conflict in 1982 which severally affected it's South American network which was later transferred well what was left of it to British Airways in late 1982. BCAL hit further problems in 1984 with the political unrest in Nigeria which was the airlines most profitable destination and further more when Lybia had severe sanctions put upon it after the Lockerbie incident that squarely put Lybia under the microscope.

BCAL was in dire straights and after no one came forward with a rescue deal the airline once again approached British Airways who eventually took full control of the airline in July 1988 for the value of just £15 million which involved all the airlines assets and route network although several domestic destinations had to be given up at LGW which were acquired by Air UK.

Lockerbie was in December '88. If BA took over B-Cal in July '88, how could sanctions on Libya have been a cause?


I bet that you loved the opportunity to point out my mistake but I'll will rewrite it again correcting my errors.

What I should have wrote and it was obviously not the Lockerbie incident which your absolutely correct occurred in December 1988.

British Caledonian suffered a serious of major setbacks in the 1980s as a result of several geopolitical events that occurred during that decade. Along with the incidents that I have already mentioned in my previous post BCAL suffered from many events beyond it's control but what really affected the airline was when Transatlantic bookings fell as a result of the American bombings in Lybia and also the Chernobyl incident that both occurred in 1986 the year before BCAL finally fell into financial woe.

So obviously the Lockerbie incident of December 1988 had no reflection on the demise of BCAL it was the two incidents above that finally helped in bringing the airline down.

On a personal note BCAL is my absolute favourite airline of all time and even after thirty years the airline still has a very special place in my heart and it will never ever be forgotten!

SAS indeed were interested in investing in BCAL in mid 1987 and they had entered into talks with the airline to acquire a minority stake and restructure the company but clauses with national bilaterals could not be contravened and SAS were dragging their heels with the negotiations, in July 1987 British Airways approached BCAL and offered them a take it or leave it deal worth more than the SAS offer and the BCAL principle shareholder and the board board accepted.

BCAL came into full ownership of British Airways in August 1988.
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3534
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:52 pm

Channex757 wrote:
BOAC1966 wrote:
A side point BA has never been able to make any longhaul viable outside London. Unless IAG needs slots give flybe a wide berth!

A little history would be beneficial here.

BA1503/2 MAN-JFK-MAN was profitable. Always was. That 767 used to pull in consistent profits, but the Little Englander type management in BA at the time (below the board level) used to dump costs on to the operation to make it look unappealing. Promotion was sparse at best and some weird accounting tricks didn't properly account for cargo as a separate operation.

Toronto made money but BA got bounced off the route by Canadian competition. LAX wasn't profitable but loads were in the 70% ballpark which for zero advertising was pretty good. Islamabad failed due to politics and danger.

The BA managers wanted everything in London and so did the 767 crews. They allowed the routes to die on the vine with no promotion. I could never reconcile BA failing at longhaul when MAN is sat on the Cheshire Millionaire Belt. Why wasn't there a concerted effort to sell into those towns and villages which at the time were one of the richest areas of Britain?


This is just a conspiracy theory, BA have for the past 20 or so years had a reputation for chasing the money, profit counts, not prestige or staff feelings.

On to the matter presently up for discussion, many posting on here seem to have a poor grasp of UK geography and population density, rather than looking at a standard map of the Country look at one showing parliamentary constituencies, that divides the population up into chunks each with a population of around 80,000. The you see how the population is heavily concentrated around London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and the central Scottish belt.

Most of these are close enough to Manchester such that the speed advantage of flying is outweighed by the time disadvantage of moving through an airport

Many of their routes are linking small regional airports into larger regional airports, making money on Stornoway to Manchester or Norwich to Newcastle will always be difficult, and in the UK we have a policy whereby regional air route subsidies are few and far between.

As with most businesses that are searching for a white knight, the big players will run a rule over it, but I just can't see how this would generally be of benefit to IAG, in the case of VS it might just be the tipping point to send them over the edge themselves.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4290
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:00 pm

Channex757 wrote:
BOAC1966 wrote:
A side point BA has never been able to make any longhaul viable outside London. Unless IAG needs slots give flybe a wide berth!

A little history would be beneficial here.

BA1503/2 MAN-JFK-MAN was profitable. Always was. That 767 used to pull in consistent profits, but the Little Englander type management in BA at the time (below the board level) used to dump costs on to the operation to make it look unappealing. Promotion was sparse at best and some weird accounting tricks didn't properly account for cargo as a separate operation.

Toronto made money but BA got bounced off the route by Canadian competition. LAX wasn't profitable but loads were in the 70% ballpark which for zero advertising was pretty good. Islamabad failed due to politics and danger.

The BA managers wanted everything in London and so did the 767 crews. They allowed the routes to die on the vine with no promotion. I could never reconcile BA failing at longhaul when MAN is sat on the Cheshire Millionaire Belt. Why wasn't there a concerted effort to sell into those towns and villages which at the time were one of the richest areas of Britain?

Fair points well made. Key point is that £ for £ that based MAN B767 could make more money out of LHR, BA was competing with itself. Part of it was funneling passengers from MAN-LHR-LAX whereas another was supporting a local non daily MAN-LAX direct. The bottom line is that BA never gave the regions the love that say CO did. The numbers always favoured LHR, and oddly enough, when CO got into LHR and merged, BRS, BFS and BHX all went away. BA only know how to make money out of London, it’s just who they are.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:08 pm

sierra3tango

British Airways incorporated both Cambrian and Northeast (former BKS) into British Airways on the 01 January 1974, they were regional subsidiaries and not fully independent airlines.

Brymon Airways was purchased by British Airways in 1993.

Dan Air was purchased by British Airways in 1992

British Caledonian Airways was purchased by British Airways in 1988.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:14 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Anything Virgin are interested in, IAG are sure to be interested in too.

I don’t think flyBe offers great interest to BA, of itself. But IAG might take a different view. Other than bmi, IAG has allowed all acquired airlines considerable operational and commercial freedom and grown them.

As one poster has said, the flyBe certificate could be used for a LEVELuk operation. I think flyBe has more value than being a vehicle for IAG’s long haul, low cost ambitions. IAG would only buy something they feel they can turn around and make money from, after all they closed bmibaby and sold bmi Regional.


Anyone thinking that there will be a LEVELuk are jumping ahead of themselves and to be brutally honest I don't foresee this happening.

Remember a few years when many people on these forums were absolutely serious in their comments that VUELING would take over the entire LGW short haul operation, it never happened for obvious reasons and the same can be said about the possibility of a LEVELuk.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
BOAC1966
Posts: 410
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:38 pm

 
BestWestern
Posts: 8100
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:46 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
BOAC1966 wrote:
A side point BA has never been able to make any longhaul viable outside London. Unless IAG needs slots give flybe a wide berth!

A little history would be beneficial here.

BA1503/2 MAN-JFK-MAN was profitable. Always was. That 767 used to pull in consistent profits, but the Little Englander type management in BA at the time (below the board level) used to dump costs on to the operation to make it look unappealing. Promotion was sparse at best and some weird accounting tricks didn't properly account for cargo as a separate operation.

Toronto made money but BA got bounced off the route by Canadian competition. LAX wasn't profitable but loads were in the 70% ballpark which for zero advertising was pretty good. Islamabad failed due to politics and danger.

The BA managers wanted everything in London and so did the 767 crews. They allowed the routes to die on the vine with no promotion. I could never reconcile BA failing at longhaul when MAN is sat on the Cheshire Millionaire Belt. Why wasn't there a concerted effort to sell into those towns and villages which at the time were one of the richest areas of Britain?

Fair points well made. Key point is that £ for £ that based MAN B767 could make more money out of LHR, BA was competing with itself. Part of it was funneling passengers from MAN-LHR-LAX whereas another was supporting a local non daily MAN-LAX direct. The bottom line is that BA never gave the regions the love that say CO did. The numbers always favoured LHR, and oddly enough, when CO got into LHR and merged, BRS, BFS and BHX all went away. BA only know how to make money out of London, it’s just who they are.


Heathrow loves Heathrow in the way United loves Newark.

Delta serves Manchester as an origin traffic spoke, and not as a hub. EI has as many departures from SNN daily as VS has from Manchester.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:00 pm

BOAC1966 wrote:


It says in that attached article Flybe hadn't actually paid for British Airways Connect but British Airways had to give them roughly £130 million to take it away from them.

Which I was more or less aware but wasn't absolutely sure of the total cost which sounds a lot but is obviously true.

But no where in the article does it mention that British Airways were paying Flybe ''annual'' subsidiaries unless the full amount was spread over a course of yearly as in ''annual'' payments but can those be classified as actually being ''subsidiaries''!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2299
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:27 pm

Cunard wrote:
Anyone thinking that there will be a LEVELuk are jumping ahead of themselves and to be brutally honest I don't foresee this happening.


I was simply responding to someone who suggested that flyBe would become LEVELuk as part of IAG. I agree nor disagree, but it depends how closely IAG would align flyBe with BA in the hypothetical event of a purchase. If flyBe were to be a subsidiary of BA, history would likely repeat, but if it were to be an independent, regional airline providing feed to IAG hubs and operating point-to-point routes with a fleet of Q400s and E-Jets/A220 (if IAG decides they will have a <180 seat jet fleet/A319 replacement). IAG may decide that DL/VS and Thomas Cook are having far too much fun at MAN and that they should base some A330/777s there before Norwegian get ideas. IAG reckon their densified 777s at LGW have comparable costs to Norwegian 787s, if that is true BA would seem to be the sensible brand for the job. The difficulty with BA in the regions is that even if it works well the aircraft can often be used out of London more profitably. Even this summer the apparently successful CityFlyer operations have been reduced to protect the weekday schedules from LCY. So regional routes of all lengths may work better in a wholly self-contained airline like flyBe/LEVELuk, rather than being managed from Waterside.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:38 am

If and I mean If IAG do actually acquire Flybe and keep it as a wholly owned and self contained airline as they have done with Aer Lingus and Iberia and keep it more or less in it's current form I honestly don't see why they would transform and rename the airline into LEVELuK I honestly don't see the point or ever see it happening.

LEVEL in it's current form whether it be the long haul operation or the recent Austrian setup is a completely different setup to the likes of Flybe and it's regional operations I don't see where the similarities are and in saying that I don't see any reason to assume that IAG would do that for that reason!

If and I mean If IAG did purchase Flybe they would either invest in the airline and keep the current name and identity OR change things around dramatically and merge Flybe into BACF which I think would more than likely be the outcome if it was the case that IAG purchased them.

The idea of IAG buying Flybe and starting LEVELuk and basing A330/B777 at the likes of MAN to scare of any intentions of Norwegian commencing long haul at Manchester or the fact that they feel that Virgin or Thomas Cook have the market to themselves is rather unrealistic, British Airways could have easily started their own long haul operation from Manchester over recent years but they have obviously not decided to do so, the same applies to Norwegian if they wanted to they too could have done but neither have, if IAG felt that LEVEL could be a great fit for Manchester don't you think that they would be flying from the airport by now or least announced there intention of doing so rather than further expanding from the likes of FCO and ORY.

The idea of IAG buying Flybe is quite a real one and could well be the case that they go through with the purchase but the extremely far fetched idea of this then turning into a possible LEVELuk I don't see I really don't, If IAG wanted to start an operation called LEVELuk there is no reason why they can't do so already and I honestly don't see how buying Flybe would change that.

Thinking out the box is one thing but the idea that IAG purchase Flybe start LEVELuk incorporate the two and start long haul from Manchester is one thing.

I think some have to look at this in a more more realistic way and as I mentioned in my previous post this stinks of all the far fetched posts in earlier threads that were continuously discussing VUELING taking over the entire short haul network at LGW which I will remind you again never happened.

Sorry to be brutal in my reply and I know that your only quoting what you have already read from other posts but it may be my own personal opinion and I'm sure that others will agree I just don't see it turning out in the same way as yourself or those that have posted that think the same.

We all might be shocked or surprised even with the final outcome of all this but strange things happen in aviation and in a few weeks time Flybe might even get some outside investment maybe the Chinese even and in that event there might not even be a possible sale of the airline.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Sheridan125
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:54 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:24 am

It is always possible that SRB could buy Flybe directly and not through VS. That way there would be no issue about British ownership and no need for other parties to agree. He clearly has the capacity to put in new management and continue LHR operations until slots can be reorganised. There would not need to be any competition authority approval. Flybe could then be reorganised privately and deals arranged to optimise LHR and AMS. Looks clean and easy to me. .
 
User001
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:24 am

The idea of IAG buying Flybe and starting LEVELuk and basing A330/B777 at the likes of MAN to scare of any intentions of Norwegian commencing long haul at Manchester or the fact that they feel that Virgin or Thomas Cook have the market to themselves is rather unrealistic, British Airways could have easily started their own long haul operation from Manchester over recent years but they have obviously not decided to do so, the same applies to Norwegian if they wanted to they too could have done but neither have, if IAG felt that LEVEL could be a great fit for Manchester don't you think that they would be flying from the airport by now or least announced there intention of doing so rather than further expanding from the likes of FCO and ORY.


Maybe one reason those bases have been expanded over starting a completely new U.K. operation, is that so far, Level has been based at BCN/FCO/ORY for long haul as they are also Vueling bases, hence the feed and brand awareness to be able to run the long haul.

If IAG were to buy Flybe, then they have that self made short haul network with the ability to feed those long haul flights, something they dont currently have.

Also, who is to say that Level in the U.K. I saw subject to any union blocks? As we know, the unions at BA have been a force to be reckoned with. Whilst there haven’t been any rumours or news of such blocks, it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Also, Manchester is now on a growth trajectory again, especially long haul. Just because they ‘are not there already’ doesn’t mean they can’t start. Basing a whole argument on ‘they wouldn’t be there already if it was viable’ is nonsensical in the sense that there has to be a start date for everything, they all have to start somewhere and things change all the time. Markets change, demographics change, circumstances change. For example, I could say ‘If I was to ever own a Lambourgini, I would have done so already’. I don’t, but doesn’t mean I won’t win a cash sum to buy one tomorrow, does it? Things change.

So in essence, I disagree with you, I think buying Flybe could be exactly the catalyst needed to bring Level to the U.K. it’s a different matter completely starting from scratch and etching out a market share compared to buying a pre-constructed network and customer base. 2 completely different circumstances all together.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3534
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:33 pm

Sheridan125 wrote:
It is always possible that SRB could buy Flybe directly and not through VS. That way there would be no issue about British ownership and no need for other parties to agree. He clearly has the capacity to put in new management and continue LHR operations until slots can be reorganised. There would not need to be any competition authority approval. Flybe could then be reorganised privately and deals arranged to optimise LHR and AMS. Looks clean and easy to me. .


Just not his style these days to wholly own anything, he has realised that a fee to use the "Virgin" brand is a far more reliable and risk free income, usually combined with a 20% or so minority share holding.

As to the "capacity to put in new management and continue LHR operations" where from ? he certainly not in house as he doesn't control any airlines these days.

Also the LHR slots are the very same ones VS couldn't economically make use of a few years ago even when obtained free of charge, they are to the best of my recollection only able to be used on the original routes into LHR from the regions, long haul to Cairo and Moscow or European routes into LHR that aren't presently operated.
 
Oykie
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:12 pm

Bongodog1964 wrote:
Sheridan125 wrote:
It is always possible that SRB could buy Flybe directly and not through VS. That way there would be no issue about British ownership and no need for other parties to agree. He clearly has the capacity to put in new management and continue LHR operations until slots can be reorganised. There would not need to be any competition authority approval. Flybe could then be reorganised privately and deals arranged to optimise LHR and AMS. Looks clean and easy to me. .


Just not his style these days to wholly own anything, he has realised that a fee to use the "Virgin" brand is a far more reliable and risk free income, usually combined with a 20% or so minority share holding.

As to the "capacity to put in new management and continue LHR operations" where from ? he certainly not in house as he doesn't control any airlines these days.

Also the LHR slots are the very same ones VS couldn't economically make use of a few years ago even when obtained free of charge, they are to the best of my recollection only able to be used on the original routes into LHR from the regions, long haul to Cairo and Moscow or European routes into LHR that aren't presently operated.


I would like to add that VS has confirmed they are in talks with FlyBe according to a statement they have sent out publicly. So the idea that SRB is involved without VS, does not seem correct at this time. Here is a link with confirmation in FlightGlobal.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... be-453876/

Flightglobal have also done an analysis as to why buying FlyBe makes sense for Virgin Atlantic.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... yb-453873/

I invite everyone interested to read these links as it answers some of the questions that have been repeated throughout this thread. Including the LHR slots. The article says FlyBe replaced the Little Red flying from LHR, and that the value is not in any eventual slots, but that there is a sound business underneath weak performance.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
klakzky123
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:44 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
They have the most slots at Schiphol after KLM easyjey and transavia. They had 12.500 slots in 2017 i read somewhere.


If that's true, then that is good value. VS can share the slots with DL and KL (because of the JV). . But regulators could easily force VS to divest the slots as part of the purchase so who knows.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8259
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:10 pm

A sound business, but it loses money.

Not my idea of a sound business.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4290
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:35 pm

Level is just Iberia with blue and green paint guys. It's front, a spoiler to try and contain Norwegian.
 
Oykie
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:59 pm

bennett123 wrote:
A sound business, but it loses money.

Not my idea of a sound business.


The article says that the lease in the E195 is so bad that it makes the results weaker. But without the lease cost of the E195 the airlines business is solid.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
3AWM
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:36 pm

I can't read ithe article because it's behind some sort of registration wall but basically I agree.

Flybe offers something there is a demand and a need for. A lot of those short flights demand quite a high price and they sell them, but:

They are still playing out some bad fleet decisions. Not only for the E195 but also they have too many aircraft for the number of routes which depresses prices overall.

They are undercapitalised - they have too many lease costs so they can't park up frames, they have to keep flying them to pay the bills.

They can't take that regional model anywhere else in Europe because of Brexit.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2595
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Sky News: Virgin Atlantic and Flybe in talks

Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:50 am

Support for FlyBe from unexpected quarters??

KLM has closed reservations for its 2x daily SOU-AMS route for Summer 2019, leaving FlyBe as the monopoly operator with 4x daily services.
KLM continues to sell long-haul connections to SOU using its codeshare on the 4x daily FlyBe services.

At 20.000 passengers per month, this decision may help FlyBe gain a little more revenue.

The slot situation at AMS, is forcing KLM to optimise its slot portfolio for long-haul services.
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