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c933103
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JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:40 pm

Per news https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... dm/082000c
It is reported that there is a flight which have 375 seats capacity but ultimately 400 passengers shown up wanting to board the aircraft. It take them a while to persuade some passengers to give up their seat, but as the process take time, it delayed the aircraft estimated arrival time to the destination airport beyond the time limit of curfew (the destination airport would close at 10pm and the flight was scheduled for arrival at 9:45pm) so they have to cancel the flight entirely. According to the report it seems to be quite rare.
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flipdewaf
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:45 pm

Wow! A few seats overbooked I could understand but 25!!! I know it’s possible to get a ticket whereby you can get on any train on the appropriate route and are not limited to a time but is there airline tickets like this? I guess you still have to let people know which you intend to get before you show up with a flexible ticket.

Fred


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frmrCapCadet
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:42 am

Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:59 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.


The problem would be that an extra section could not be readied before the airport closed for the night, and an equipment swap to a 500-seat plane would also have taken too long, and those B773s have no first class (J78Y422), requiring extra time for compensation since some J passengers would also have been bumped to Y. This flight is normally operated by a 375-seat B772 (non-ER - F14J82Y279). I can't blame JL for this, given that FUK closes at 10 PM.
 
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ASQXSMFJETTER
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:09 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.


The problem would be that an extra section could not be readied before the airport closed for the night, and an equipment swap to a 500-seat plane would also have taken too long, and those B773s have no first class (J78Y422), requiring extra time for compensation since some J passengers would also have been bumped to Y. This flight is normally operated by a 375-seat B772 (non-ER - F14J82Y279). I can't blame JL for this, given that FUK closes at 10 PM.




Well FUK that sucks lol (sorry I had too)
 
INFINITI329
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:17 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.


The problem would be that an extra section could not be readied before the airport closed for the night, and an equipment swap to a 500-seat plane would also have taken too long, and those B773s have no first class (J78Y422), requiring extra time for compensation since some J passengers would also have been bumped to Y. This flight is normally operated by a 375-seat B772 (non-ER - F14J82Y279). I can't blame JL for this, given that FUK closes at 10 PM.


JL is absolutely at fault..they are the ones who decided to overbook the flight by 25. If they sold the flight at capacity we wouldn't be talking about this.
 
Newark727
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:41 am

Sounds like they need to bring back the 747D.





(Whoever was planning to reply to this post with a detailed refutation of passenger 747 economics, I'm onto your game, and you're a pedant.)
 
smi0006
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:33 am

Sounds like someone in revenue management didn’t adjust the capacity for sale correctly. And airport staff handled this terribly, and oversale should never reach the gate- should always be captured at checkin
 
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CARST
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:02 am

And that in Japan... I see a looooooooong we-are-sorry-letter coming from the JAL managament. Probably even a press conference with a lot of bowing down and lowered heads...


flipdewaf wrote:
Wow! A few seats overbooked I could understand but 25!!! I know it’s possible to get a ticket whereby you can get on any train on the appropriate route and are not limited to a time but is there airline tickets like this? I guess you still have to let people know which you intend to get before you show up with a flexible ticket.


I think it's not such an unrealistic number. Considering the number of business travellers on these routes, many of them could have been on flexible tickets. Knowing the Japanese working times, it's not unlikely that many pax came in very late for their flights and tried to go on the last flight. Perhaps on a regular day this would have been 5-10pax, but an average number is usually just that, an average. Perhaps there was a lot of traffic, too, forcing some people on the later flight. Perhaps an international flight was late and people were rebooked from an earlier flight onto this one. There are many reasons for things like that to happen.

I'm wondering more how in the Japanese world of perfect organisation, this flight could have been late. Did people really start discussing with the agents at the gate? Did they get loud? (That would be so unsual.) Why didn't JAL deploy more gate staff to handle the discussion?
 
Waterbomber
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:24 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.


I can't blame JL for this, given that FUK closes at 10 PM.


Yeah, let's blame this one on the weather... :banghead:
 
Waterbomber
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:30 am

I have noticed quite a shift lately at JAL.
Drunk pilots, overbookings, sky high fares with JL code but on partners' metal.
The 5 stars must have gotten to their heads. I'm a FFP with JAL, but we stopped using them as fares no longer match the value offfered by JL and their new booking engine no longer shows all available options.
Heck, when getting on their website, you need to choose a city! instead of a country. That is weird.

Since they migrated to the new system about a year ago, their operation is a mess and their fares crazy high.
 
sabby
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:44 am

I understand the practice of overbooking but How were those 25 persons checked in ? The system should have notified the check in agents/kiosks that plane is full and they need to be re-booked with compensations etc.
 
thaiflyer
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:24 am

Waterbomber wrote:
I have noticed quite a shift lately at JAL.
Drunk pilots, overbookings, sky high fares with JL code but on partners' metal.
The 5 stars must have gotten to their heads. I'm a FFP with JAL, but we stopped using them as fares no longer match the value offfered by JL and their new booking engine no longer shows all available options.
Heck, when getting on their website, you need to choose a city! instead of a country. That is weird.

Since they migrated to the new system about a year ago, their operation is a mess and their fares crazy high.


I suspect that the reason for choosing a city instead of country is the result of the China tirade against Taiwan.
A while ago China complaint like a baby that Taiwan is from China therefore airlines website should include Taiwan in the China section.
Therefore a lot of airlines removed the whole country thing from their booking engine and only uses city's to keep everybody happy.
 
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sinr
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:37 pm

It is not surprising they overbook a late night flight more than other times. On a normal day, business travelers with flexible tickets often get on earlier flights and the fully booked late night flight goes out half full. On this particular day probably multiple factors made this not happen, making the news. The other 364 days this year, nobody was aware they overbook the late flight by so much.
 
jayunited
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:40 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Wow! A few seats overbooked I could understand but 25!!! I know it’s possible to get a ticket whereby you can get on any train on the appropriate route and are not limited to a time but is there airline tickets like this? I guess you still have to let people know which you intend to get before you show up with a flexible ticket.

Fred


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The aircraft has 375 seats so an oversell of 25 is quite normal, in fact prior to Dr. Dao this was not uncommon at UA to see that many oversells on a widebody domestic flights Domestically oversells still happen although most carriers will claim they have stopped the practice the reality is they haven't. What they have done is integrated more IT into the revenue management process they have deployed better algorithms that constantly monitor and update the number of over sales allowed for each flight. Those number can vary depending on route history, departure airport, departure time, size of aircraft and many more factors. One factor believe it or not is traffic patterns you wouldn't believe the number of local passengers who miss their flight because they misjudged how bad traffic would be. Take for example Chicago 9am departure the system might estimate 4 local passenger will miss their 9am departure to SFO and allow 4 oversells. But on the 6pm departure on a Friday evening that number could be up to 10 local passenger and 5 connecting passenger will miss misconnect which would mean 15 oversells would be allowed. It is because Monday through Thursday it normally takes about 50 minutes from downtown to O'Hare, but on Friday evenings that 50 minute trip could easily be 70-90 minutes because on Fridays traffic is ridiculous in the Chicagoland region. For people who don't normally make that trek they might misjudge the travel time and again the system is also looking at historical data which can go back as far as 6 months.

I agree JAL is at fault and perhaps there is a history of at least 25 no shows on this flight but every now and then you have a day when somehow all ticketed passengers show up. Airlines don't make money on empty seats which is why many of the major carrier have deployed such sophisticated revenue management systems and continue to pour money into theses systems so that they are consistently updating and putting out the best information available. However as good as those systems are no computer can accurately predict human behavior 100% of the time. In the cases where all passengers somehow show up this is where your airport staff comes into play and having policies that will offer passengers up to $10,000 dollars for their seat. I don't know what JAL's policy is for oversells but they should have found a way to deal with this that didn't involve canceling the flight.
 
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A333MSPtoAMS
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:01 pm

ASQXSMFJETTER wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.


The problem would be that an extra section could not be readied before the airport closed for the night, and an equipment swap to a 500-seat plane would also have taken too long, and those B773s have no first class (J78Y422), requiring extra time for compensation since some J passengers would also have been bumped to Y. This flight is normally operated by a 375-seat B772 (non-ER - F14J82Y279). I can't blame JL for this, given that FUK closes at 10 PM.




Well FUK that sucks lol (sorry I had too)


Hahaha. Even before I saw your response I thought the exact same thing!
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c933103
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:45 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Wouldn't 25 overbooked be enough to see if one of their smaller planes could make an extra flight? 400 unhappy customers is pretty extreme, especially when it was JAL's fault.


The problem would be that an extra section could not be readied before the airport closed for the night, and an equipment swap to a 500-seat plane would also have taken too long, and those B773s have no first class (J78Y422), requiring extra time for compensation since some J passengers would also have been bumped to Y. This flight is normally operated by a 375-seat B772 (non-ER - F14J82Y279). I can't blame JL for this, given that FUK closes at 10 PM.

Suddenly come to my mind, can't JAL make up a temporary flight and fly those who want to into KKJ instead?
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maint123
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:23 am

JAL has learnt nothing. Just call security and drag the 25 excess passengers feet first from the boarding gate. Problem solved.
 
spacecadet
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:13 am

Waterbomber wrote:
I have noticed quite a shift lately at JAL.


It's a big airline. Stuff happens.

And it would be more odd that all this stuff happens evenly throughout the year than it happening in bunches. Randomness requires stuff happen in bunches.
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TOGA10
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:16 am

c933103 wrote:
Per news https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... dm/082000c
It is reported that there is a flight which have 375 seats capacity but ultimately 400 passengers shown up wanting to board the aircraft. It take them a while to persuade some passengers to give up their seat, but as the process take time, it delayed the aircraft estimated arrival time to the destination airport beyond the time limit of curfew (the destination airport would close at 10pm and the flight was scheduled for arrival at 9:45pm) so they have to cancel the flight entirely. According to the report it seems to be quite rare.

I'm surprised by the fact that you schedule a flight within 15 minutes of the curfew, seems that a slight tech/wx/slot delay is going to ruin everyone's day! Not much of a buffer to play with.
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WorldFlier
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:45 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Per news https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... dm/082000c
It is reported that there is a flight which have 375 seats capacity but ultimately 400 passengers shown up wanting to board the aircraft. It take them a while to persuade some passengers to give up their seat, but as the process take time, it delayed the aircraft estimated arrival time to the destination airport beyond the time limit of curfew (the destination airport would close at 10pm and the flight was scheduled for arrival at 9:45pm) so they have to cancel the flight entirely. According to the report it seems to be quite rare.

I'm surprised by the fact that you schedule a flight within 15 minutes of the curfew, seems that a slight tech/wx/slot delay is going to ruin everyone's day! Not much of a buffer to play with.


In my experience everything in Japan seems to run like clockwork. I would love to see the distribution of arrival times of this flight because I would expect that it is very tight.

If you're running a scheduled flight 375 person with 15 minutes leeway, that means you have done the analysis. Also, I would imagine they have an algorithm for overbooking and this was a 2+ standard deviation outlier...which happens very infrequently...
 
FatCat
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:05 pm

with a domestic A380 this wouldn't happen! :stirthepot:
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Etheereal
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:12 pm

FatCat wrote:
with a domestic A380 this wouldn't happen! :stirthepot:

The A380 is a fail plane, so i doubt JAL wanted that burden with them :duck:
 
raylee67
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Re: JAL domestic flight cancelled due to overbooking

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm

They could have dragged 25 random passengers off the plane :D

But seriously, I think Japanese passengers would expect better, especially for a domestic flight.

thaiflyer wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
I have noticed quite a shift lately at JAL.
Drunk pilots, overbookings, sky high fares with JL code but on partners' metal.
The 5 stars must have gotten to their heads. I'm a FFP with JAL, but we stopped using them as fares no longer match the value offfered by JL and their new booking engine no longer shows all available options.
Heck, when getting on their website, you need to choose a city! instead of a country. That is weird.

Since they migrated to the new system about a year ago, their operation is a mess and their fares crazy high.


I suspect that the reason for choosing a city instead of country is the result of the China tirade against Taiwan.
A while ago China complaint like a baby that Taiwan is from China therefore airlines website should include Taiwan in the China section.
Therefore a lot of airlines removed the whole country thing from their booking engine and only uses city's to keep everybody happy.

Yes, that is the reason.

ANA did the same too, but only if you choose "East Asia". Under "East Asia", no countries are listed and only cities. But for other regions, cities are listed under countries.
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CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS

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