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sonicruiser
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What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:17 am

I would have to logically assume that if LHR is going through all the fuss of building a 3rd runway, that it would have some impact because otherwise they wouldn't be building it. But will it solve the slot problem? In other words, is the point of the 3rd runway to spread out existing slots or add new ones?
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george77300
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:54 am

sonicruiser wrote:
I would have to logically assume that if LHR is going through all the fuss of building a 3rd runway, that it would have some impact because otherwise they wouldn't be building it. But will it solve the slot problem? In other words, is the point of the 3rd runway to spread out existing slots or add new ones?


Add new ones. There will be loads of new slots opened up throughout the day. Allows the airport to increase capacity. I’m sure it will still be full in a matter of months but their will be a noticeable increase in slot numbers.
 
Arion640
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:13 am

Increase slots, reduce delays and reduce time spent holding over the city.
 
Gemuser
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:34 am

Is there sufficient terminal space to actually achieve this?

Gemuser
 
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Channex757
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:12 am

The third runway will come with Terminal 6. So far the planning is for the new runway to be shorter, and used for shorthaul operations only.

This frees up slots on the two main runways that heavies could be worked into, allowing for separation so not a 1 for 1 swap. There will presumably be weight restrictions in place for the runway and potentially cheaper deals on fees for airlines using low-polluting aircraft like turboprops.

T6 will sit between the new runway and the North runway (27R/09L). None of these plans are as yet set in stone.
 
Byrdluvs747
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:15 am

Channex757 wrote:
The third runway will come with Terminal 6.


Who will go into T6? Non-alliance carriers?
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BritishB747
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:23 am

Many of the new slots created by a third runway will be ring-fenced for UK flights and flights to Crown dependencies. Around 15% of the new slots (so not 15% of all slots at Heathrow) will be reserved, so it wont necessarily be a free for all for the likes of Emirates, etc to grab as many slots as possible.

Hopefully this means that the PSO routes that serve STN or LGW can move over to LHR to provide the best possible connection opportunities and the maximum chance of these routes remaining viable.

Whether the government stand by the comment that they will reserve slots to ensure the best connection opportunities remains to be seen. I can see a situation where if the PSO route to Dundee has a prime slot that a US or Asian carrier might want, then the PSO might be moved.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... o-heathrow
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Max Q
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:35 am

Channex757 wrote:
The third runway will come with Terminal 6. So far the planning is for the new runway to be shorter, and used for shorthaul operations only.

This frees up slots on the two main runways that heavies could be worked into, allowing for separation so not a 1 for 1 swap. There will presumably be weight restrictions in place for the runway and potentially cheaper deals on fees for airlines using low-polluting aircraft like turboprops.

T6 will sit between the new runway and the North runway (27R/09L). None of these plans are as yet set in stone.



Why would there be weight restrictions for the new runway ?
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fcogafa
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:59 am

Channex757 wrote:
The third runway will come with Terminal 6. So far the planning is for the new runway to be shorter, and used for shorthaul operations only.


The idea of a new terminal is scrapped, the plan is to expand the current ones

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/new ... 59.article
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:20 am

In a perfect world, you would think they would only add half as many slots as are possible with a new runway so there would be some slack available to account for weather issues.

At Heathrow, as soon as the weather is particularly bad, you see airlines like BA cancelling an entire afternoon and evening schedule. This is due to the operation being so tight that any adverse weather means they literally can't get all the aircraft in and out.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:22 pm

Given the fact that runway probably will not be in service until the late 20's, the look of carriers serving LHR may be very different than today.
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Blerg
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:23 pm

I think the biggest impact would be BA no longer needing the A380.
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:37 pm

Would a third runway result in the opportunity, hard to pass up, to shut down one of the others one at a time for refurbishing, since it's so difficult to do it now? Once the two are freshly done THEN you truly have the three runways? I mention it because I read JFK shuts down runways for months at a time so they can be repaved or re-poured so I wonder when a busier airport like LHR finds the time to do it.
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skipness1E
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:42 pm

Is the Terminal 2A buildout and T2C project still live?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:47 pm

Gemuser wrote:
Is there sufficient terminal space to actually achieve this?

Gemuser

Errr... New T1 under construction. New T6. Plans for The T5 to double gates.

I would not expect 50% more slots due to current delays. Around 40% more is what I would do...


LHR needed the 3rd runway 20 years ago...
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lightsaber
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:11 pm

ClipperYankee wrote:
Would a third runway result in the opportunity, hard to pass up, to shut down one of the others one at a time for refurbishing, since it's so difficult to do it now? Once the two are freshly done THEN you truly have the three runways? I mention it because I read JFK shuts down runways for months at a time so they can be repaved or re-poured so I wonder when a busier airport like LHR finds the time to do it.

That would be the smart play.
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Cunard
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:04 am

lightsaber wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
Is there sufficient terminal space to actually achieve this?

Gemuser

Errr... New T1 under construction. New T6. Plans for The T5 to double gates.

I would not expect 50% more slots due to current delays. Around 40% more is what I would do...


LHR needed the 3rd runway 20 years ago...


There is no Terminal 1 currently under construction in fact the former T1 is still standing bar from it's piers which have been demolished with new stands and widening of taxiways replacing them.

The current baggage facility for Terminal 2 is located in the former T1 and this has to be sorted out before the actual building can be demolished.

It's taking forever for former Terminal 1 to be demolished even the terminals multi-storey car park is still in place considering it hasn't been used since the Terminal closed.

Once a new baggage facility is built for T2 then the former T1 can be finally demolished and the extension to T2 will commence doubling the terminals capacity, another satellite as in T2C will also be built.

Once Terminal 2A is fully built along with T2C then T3 will be demolished and the airlines relocated to other terminals.

The central area including the bus station etc will then be totally transformed with a new travel exchange incorporating a new bus and coach station plus offices and hotels.

Terminal 3 once demolished will not be replaced by a new terminal as the extended T2 will replace it with two extra satellites and an underground train link from the extended T2 which will then be the only terminal within the CTA.

With the current T5A as well as T5B/T5C and T2A as well as T2B/T2C and the projected T2D/T2E it will be full toast rack system of Satellites plus the extended T5 and the projected associated Satellite built between the new and northern runways which I assume will then be called T5D

There is no planned satellite T5D where the current fire station and where several fuel tanks are situated.

Terminal 6 has been abandoned in favour of an extended T5 west of the current location.

Once Terminal 5 is extended it will be wholly used by British Airways and Oneworld.

The original satellite concept between the new and the northern runway remains as planned and will be a satellite serving the extended T5.

Terminal 4 will remain as such and will not be replaced or demolished.

Once the terminals are all extended or replaced it has been hinted that they could well be renamed as in,

Terminal 2 renamed to Heathrow East

Terminal 4 renamed to Heathrow South

Terminal 5 renamed to Heathrow West

The official Heathrow Airport website has all this information which is more or less upto date plus there is also quite a large amount of information online including CGI images and videos.

Personally I am 100% in favour of the planned R3 at LHR whether it actually goes ahead or not but my biggest concern is the upheaval involving the roadworks on the M25 motorway it's bad enough as it is especially during peak hours and the situation will be absolutely horrendous, that's my only real concern.

If and when Heathrow Airport has everything completed and is finally a modern international airport which it greatly deserves perhaps a major clean up of all the outdated buildings on the airports perimeter can take place as some of these date back to the late forties and early fifties and look very tired.
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Cunard
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:19 am

ClipperYankee wrote:
Would a third runway result in the opportunity, hard to pass up, to shut down one of the others one at a time for refurbishing, since it's so difficult to do it now? Once the two are freshly done THEN you truly have the three runways? I mention it because I read JFK shuts down runways for months at a time so they can be repaved or re-poured so I wonder when a busier airport like LHR finds the time to do it.


Runway works are planned well ahead and are done overnight sometimes for a few months at a time with the last flights arriving the maintenance teams are on the runway within minutes and with a tight schedule they are ready to receive the first flights of the day in following the morning.

It's well planned and organised like military fashion.

London Heathrow Airport is not open 24/7 so runway maintenance has to be done during the evening.

With only two runways at LHR they can not be closed for any length of time if that was the case the airport would come to a complete standstill.
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mdavies06
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 am

ClipperYankee wrote:
Would a third runway result in the opportunity, hard to pass up, to shut down one of the others one at a time for refurbishing, since it's so difficult to do it now? Once the two are freshly done THEN you truly have the three runways? I mention it because I read JFK shuts down runways for months at a time so they can be repaved or re-poured so I wonder when a busier airport like LHR finds the time to do it.


I don't know what sort of work is required that distinguishes JFK and also say DXB which requires a runway shut down that last for months. Would like to know more about them. However, I would imagine if this sort of maintenance is due at the existing LHR runways, they can be done as soon as runway no.3 opens, and when those are completed (say a year after runway no.3 opens), then the 3 runway system can start and new slot created.
 
skipness1E
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:45 am

Dubai runs 24/7, LHR is single runway from 10:30pm to 6:00am, and has no scheduled movements between just before 11pm through to 4am. Hence window for runway work is wide enough to do overnight.
 
andymartin
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:28 pm

The new runway will not reduce delays or holding over London because they will just add more and more flights until it is operating at maximum capacity as it is now. 3rd runway is a total waste of time and money.
 
B8887
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:44 pm

Excuse me, but what would the impact on the cost of the current slots be?

Goes up because airlines will pay a bigger premium for LHR? Goes down bcs more slots will be available?

But I agree, this is all a bit iffy and wheny (still)...

Regards.

B8887
 
skipness1E
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:53 pm

andymartin wrote:
The new runway will not reduce delays or holding over London because they will just add more and more flights until it is operating at maximum capacity as it is now. 3rd runway is a total waste of time and money.

You just said there’s enough demand to fill it from Day One. That’s the opposite of “a total waste of money”, that’s supplying much needed capacity to meet strong and growing demand. It NEEDS to be managed to ensure it protects the INV/NQY/LBA routes and expands UK domestic connectivity, as well as cutting down holding times. There’s not THAT many airlines who need to be at LHR, I don’t see the locos, where growth is stronger, wishing to
pay the premium of using and expanded LHR. I’m not sure it would be full to runway capacity all that quickly unless BA and VS move out of Gatwick entirely, and there’s just not the terminal capacity for that. Of course I suspect easyJet will give it a go....
 
andymartin
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Errr it wasnt me who said there is enough demand to fill it from day one!
3rd runway is 20 years too late!
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:20 pm

skipness1E wrote:
It NEEDS to be managed to ensure it protects the INV/NQY/LBA routes and expands UK domestic connectivity


I'm sorry, but that is demonstrably not true.

Routes from LHR to the likes of NQY, INV and LBA (and in the future the likes of DSA, LPL) need government subsidy in the form of PSO's to survive long term. They may also need government intervention to protect the LHR flights from being undercut by cheaper rivals like AMS. Extra slots will make no difference to the commercial reality.

This represents another hidden cost to the taxpayer, who are already being asked to contribute billions to deliver supporting infrastructure and to underwrite the extortionate capital cost to HHL (who are leveraged to their eyeballs).
 
Cunard
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Re: What will be the impact of a 3rd runway on LHR slots?

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:41 am

With all these suggested domestic routes being ring fenced with the planned R3 I honestly can't see a connection to DSA being one of them and the same can be said for MME although I could possibly see LPL eventually regaining a link to LHR along with GCI and JER although personally I think that we're see JER regaining a link long before R3 is or if even when it's completed.
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