a350lover
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Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:38 am

Aerolineas' CEO has described the scenario pretty bad. The company has no money to pay wages and thus needs the State to add more investment to the national project. All flights suspended for November the 26th.

http://en.mercopress.com/2018/11/24/lab ... ovember-26
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:46 am

This feels like deja-vu...
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DABYT
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:31 am

a350lover wrote:
Aerolineas' CEO has described the scenario pretty bad. The company has no money to pay wages and thus needs the State to add more investment to the national project. All flights suspended for November the 26th.

http://en.mercopress.com/2018/11/24/lab ... ovember-26


Reading the title and your last sentence one might think that flights on November 26th will be suspended due to financial problems which is not the case. Unions called for strike as retribution for disciplinary actions taken against workers participating in a previous strike. Unfortunately thousands of passengers will be suffering from the arrogance and ignorance of argentine unions again...
 
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CARST
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:15 pm

Aerolineas seems like a case similar to Alitalia. Should have been bankrupt a long time ago and should have also gone out of business, leaving the market to privately owned airlines, which would sure fare better. Especially they would bring the prices down.

But with keeping these state owned airline alive the governments of such countries distort the market and not only sink huge sums of tax-money into these loss-making companies, but also make it difficult for privately held companies to compete, because these have to fight the state-sponsored companies all the time.
 
pipeafcr
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:34 pm

Francoflier wrote:
This feels like deja-vu...


I don't think they were ever out of this scenario, in my opinion they'll need to privatize if they want to see green numbers
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DL747400
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Decades of endless state aid are not the answer. Any airline without a viable business model and a realistic business plan to support it should not be artificially kept alive on life support. It would be sad if AR were to cease to exist, but perhaps necessary. The Argentinian government and economy are a shambles, in many ways resembling Italy and AZ. Sometimes the entire market benefits after a non-viable company is allowed to go out of business. The survivors in this business are the ones who are being run in such a way that they do not face extinction every time there is a surge in the price of oil.
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cedars747
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:38 pm

pipeafcr wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
This feels like deja-vu...


I don't think they were ever out of this scenario, in my opinion they'll need to privatize if they want to see green numbers

They tried the privatization and it did not work. The company was privatized in 1990 by the Marsans Group of Spain and returned to state management of Argentina in 2008.
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FlyHossD
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Americans don't need to look all the way to Argentina to find carriers with negative free cash flow.


Which U.S. airlines have a negative cash flow? Silver (just a guess based on their troubles getting the ATRs into service)? Who else?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:53 pm

a350lover wrote:
Aerolineas' CEO has described the scenario pretty bad. The company has no money to pay wages and thus needs the State to add more investment to the national project. All flights suspended for November the 26th.

http://en.mercopress.com/2018/11/24/lab ... ovember-26


Not at all accurate. Flights are suspended for next Monday due to a 24 hour strike planned by all unions except the Flight Attendants. This strike came about because the airline suspended around 350 employees that called for "assemblies" on Nov. 8th effectively delaying flights in an illegal way, according to the Labor Ministry,

This is not about money, although the unions demands are, partly, for more pay increases. The government and the unions are locked in a battle than at its core is about deregulation of the industry in Argentina. The unions are deadly opposed to what has been happening in the country for a couple of years now. This is purely political and with general elections in 2019 the stakes are high.

The government is taking a hard line and is not ceding to the unions' demands. If you can read Spanish, you will see that the talk is to reduce the international fleet by not replacing the 2 A340s due to leave in 2020, cancel pretty much all treasury support for the airline and assume the political costs of having the airline temporarily grounded. The difference with years past is that the consumer now has choices and that dilutes the effect of any labor action. There will be zero effect on international services. The affected areas will be the smaller provincial towns where AR is the only game in town.

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/2195850-el- ... aerolineas
Last edited by dcajet on Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:59 pm

cedars747 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
This feels like deja-vu...


I don't think they were ever out of this scenario, in my opinion they'll need to privatize if they want to see green numbers

They tried the privatization and it did not work. The company was privatized in 1990 by the Marsans Group of Spain and returned to state management of Argentina in 2008.


Actually AR was privatized in 1990 to the Spanish State holding SEPI (Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales) then owner of Iberia. I hope the irony is not lost about privatizing a state entreprise to another state enterprise. This was the most corrupt privatization in Argentina's history and was a kickbacks fest... in fact SEPI paid for the transaction by selling and leasing back every possible asset of AR, movable or fixed... This turned out to be a colossal disaster and IB then looked for help in AA who after a few months ran away. Then AR was given to Marsans, but then the whole of Marsans executive team pretty much ended in prison... so you see why the idea of re-privatizing AR ruffles a few feathers in Argentina.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:04 pm

Can Norwegian Air Argentina gain from this?
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dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:15 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Can Norwegian Air Argentina gain from this?


Every other airline that operates in Argentina (both internationally and domestic) will see an uptick in their fortunes.

The cheekiest airline operating in Argentina, Flybondi has launched a new campaign urging lawmakers to stretch their travel allowances by flying with them, and to save public funds in general.

Image

Image
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Cubsrule
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:17 pm

dcajet wrote:
cedars747 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:

I don't think they were ever out of this scenario, in my opinion they'll need to privatize if they want to see green numbers

They tried the privatization and it did not work. The company was privatized in 1990 by the Marsans Group of Spain and returned to state management of Argentina in 2008.


Actually AR was privatized in 1990 to the Spanish State holding SEPI (Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales) then owner of Iberia. I hope the irony is not lost about privatizing a state entreprise to another state enterprise. This was the most corrupt privatization in Argentina's history and was a kickbacks fest... in fact SEPI paid for the transaction by selling and leasing back every possible asset of AR, movable or fixed... This turned out to be a colossal disaster and IB then looked for help in AA who after a few months ran away. Then AR was given to Marsans, but then the whole of Marsans executive team pretty much ended in prison... so you see why the idea of re-privatizing AR ruffles a few feathers in Argentina.


I know the idea of looking to Chile is distasteful to some Argentines, but Chile shows, I think, that a private “flag carrier” works in a broadly similar, albeit significantly smaller, market.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
pipeafcr
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:25 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
cedars747 wrote:
They tried the privatization and it did not work. The company was privatized in 1990 by the Marsans Group of Spain and returned to state management of Argentina in 2008.


Actually AR was privatized in 1990 to the Spanish State holding SEPI (Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales) then owner of Iberia. I hope the irony is not lost about privatizing a state entreprise to another state enterprise. This was the most corrupt privatization in Argentina's history and was a kickbacks fest... in fact SEPI paid for the transaction by selling and leasing back every possible asset of AR, movable or fixed... This turned out to be a colossal disaster and IB then looked for help in AA who after a few months ran away. Then AR was given to Marsans, but then the whole of Marsans executive team pretty much ended in prison... so you see why the idea of re-privatizing AR ruffles a few feathers in Argentina.


I know the idea of looking to Chile is distasteful to some Argentines, but Chile shows, I think, that a private “flag carrier” works in a broadly similar, albeit significantly smaller, market.


Not just Chile since they can also look at Colombia's Avianca, Panama's Copa, and Mexico's Aeromexico. What do they all have in common? they are private corporations. Right now Aerolineas is like another South African Airways
Felipe Carrillo
 
dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
cedars747 wrote:
They tried the privatization and it did not work. The company was privatized in 1990 by the Marsans Group of Spain and returned to state management of Argentina in 2008.


Actually AR was privatized in 1990 to the Spanish State holding SEPI (Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales) then owner of Iberia. I hope the irony is not lost about privatizing a state entreprise to another state enterprise. This was the most corrupt privatization in Argentina's history and was a kickbacks fest... in fact SEPI paid for the transaction by selling and leasing back every possible asset of AR, movable or fixed... This turned out to be a colossal disaster and IB then looked for help in AA who after a few months ran away. Then AR was given to Marsans, but then the whole of Marsans executive team pretty much ended in prison... so you see why the idea of re-privatizing AR ruffles a few feathers in Argentina.


I know the idea of looking to Chile is distasteful to some Argentines, but Chile shows, I think, that a private “flag carrier” works in a broadly similar, albeit significantly smaller, market.


Attitudes have evolved. Chile has never had the level of political activism that unions in Argentina have. The Pinochet dictatorship killed off whatever level they had. Across the Andes, it is a completely different picture, both at a union and at a political level. Populism is alive and well in Argentina, as demonstrated by 30% of the voters that still believe (almost with religious fervor) the populist message that Cristina Kirchner embodies. And guess where on the political spectrum the unions stand? This could be 1930s Italy in some aspects...
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:57 pm

dcajet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Actually AR was privatized in 1990 to the Spanish State holding SEPI (Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales) then owner of Iberia. I hope the irony is not lost about privatizing a state entreprise to another state enterprise. This was the most corrupt privatization in Argentina's history and was a kickbacks fest... in fact SEPI paid for the transaction by selling and leasing back every possible asset of AR, movable or fixed... This turned out to be a colossal disaster and IB then looked for help in AA who after a few months ran away. Then AR was given to Marsans, but then the whole of Marsans executive team pretty much ended in prison... so you see why the idea of re-privatizing AR ruffles a few feathers in Argentina.


I know the idea of looking to Chile is distasteful to some Argentines, but Chile shows, I think, that a private “flag carrier” works in a broadly similar, albeit significantly smaller, market.


Attitudes have evolved. Chile has never had the level of political activism that unions in Argentina have. The Pinochet dictatorship killed off whatever level they had. Across the Andes, it is a completely different picture, both at a union and at a political level. Populism is alive and well in Argentina, as demonstrated by 30% of the voters that still believe (almost with religious fervor) the populist message that Cristina Kirchner embodies. And guess where on the political spectrum the unions stand? This could be 1930s Italy in some aspects...


I agree with all of this. But union attitudes and populism shouldn’t be complete impediments to making money. By all indications, 4M has managed.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:04 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I know the idea of looking to Chile is distasteful to some Argentines, but Chile shows, I think, that a private “flag carrier” works in a broadly similar, albeit significantly smaller, market.


Attitudes have evolved. Chile has never had the level of political activism that unions in Argentina have. The Pinochet dictatorship killed off whatever level they had. Across the Andes, it is a completely different picture, both at a union and at a political level. Populism is alive and well in Argentina, as demonstrated by 30% of the voters that still believe (almost with religious fervor) the populist message that Cristina Kirchner embodies. And guess where on the political spectrum the unions stand? This could be 1930s Italy in some aspects...


I agree with all of this. But union attitudes and populism shouldn’t be complete impediments to making money. By all indications, 4M has managed.


But then, LATAM is run as a business. Aerolineas has been throughout its history a political appendage of whomever is in power. And cozy employment, not disturbed by such revolutionary ideas as competition or profits. The few times it has been run as a business, as in the present, unions lose it. True, they have been bruised by their experience with privatization where they went through hell and high water. It is a cultural problem and one that I am not sure it has a fix that will leave everyone happy.
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cedars747
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:05 pm

Unfortunately Nothing works well in Argentina, even the football match between Boca and River is about to be suspended!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:21 pm

dcajet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Attitudes have evolved. Chile has never had the level of political activism that unions in Argentina have. The Pinochet dictatorship killed off whatever level they had. Across the Andes, it is a completely different picture, both at a union and at a political level. Populism is alive and well in Argentina, as demonstrated by 30% of the voters that still believe (almost with religious fervor) the populist message that Cristina Kirchner embodies. And guess where on the political spectrum the unions stand? This could be 1930s Italy in some aspects...


I agree with all of this. But union attitudes and populism shouldn’t be complete impediments to making money. By all indications, 4M has managed.


But then, LATAM is run as a business. Aerolineas has been throughout its history a political appendage of whomever is in power. And cozy employment, not disturbed by such revolutionary ideas as competition or profits. The few times it has been run as a business, as in the present, unions lose it. True, they have been bruised by their experience with privatization where they went through hell and high water. It is a cultural problem and one that I am not sure it has a fix that will leave everyone happy.


LATAM is run as a business but they have to play by the Argentine rules, employ Argentine staff, etc. Through that prism, AR’s various managers might look even worse. I’m not so sure it’s a worker problem at AR.

LATAM enjoys some advantages (easier aircraft acquisition and changes because it’s a big group, some ability to use SCL as a connecting point to avoid the two airport issue in B.A.) but I don’t think any of those is or should be dispositive.
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a350lover
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:36 pm

[quote="dcajet"]
Not at all accurate. Flights are suspended for next Monday due to a 24 hour strike planned by all unions except the Flight Attendants. [quote="dcajet"]

Who connected the two ideas? Did I say the reason for the 24 hour strike on Monday? I just said all flights were suspended for a day, and if it sounded connected to the cash flow situation it wasn't what I meant. Reports regarding the cash flow of the airline came from Luis Malvido who exactly said (in Spanish) "Aerolineas está virtualmente quebrada" - sorry, link is just in Spanish.

https://www.hosteltur.com/109906_aeroli ... dente.html
 
dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:44 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I agree with all of this. But union attitudes and populism shouldn’t be complete impediments to making money. By all indications, 4M has managed.


But then, LATAM is run as a business. Aerolineas has been throughout its history a political appendage of whomever is in power. And cozy employment, not disturbed by such revolutionary ideas as competition or profits. The few times it has been run as a business, as in the present, unions lose it. True, they have been bruised by their experience with privatization where they went through hell and high water. It is a cultural problem and one that I am not sure it has a fix that will leave everyone happy.


LATAM is run as a business but they have to play by the Argentine rules, employ Argentine staff, etc. Through that prism, AR’s various managers might look even worse. I’m not so sure it’s a worker problem at AR.

LATAM enjoys some advantages (easier aircraft acquisition and changes because it’s a big group, some ability to use SCL as a connecting point to avoid the two airport issue in B.A.) but I don’t think any of those is or should be dispositive.


I don't think I ever said that workers are the problem at AR. They have been bystanders (and collateral damage) to the way AR has been managed by the powers that be. Unions don't necessarily equate workers, at least in Argentina. Unions are not so discreetly linked to political parties and as such, they are part of the struggle.
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a350lover
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:44 pm

At what extent can be this last "Aerolineas' crisis" be the consequence of the market liberalization?
 
dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:50 pm

a350lover wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Not at all accurate. Flights are suspended for next Monday due to a 24 hour strike planned by all unions except the Flight Attendants.
dcajet wrote:

Who connected the two ideas? Did I say the reason for the 24 hour strike on Monday? I just said all flights were suspended for a day, and if it sounded connected to the cash flow situation it wasn't what I meant. Reports regarding the cash flow of the airline came from Luis Malvido who exactly said (in Spanish) "Aerolineas está virtualmente quebrada" - sorry, link is just in Spanish.

https://www.hosteltur.com/109906_aeroli ... dente.html


I understand that you did not mean it that way, but that is the way it came across. And while Mr. Malvido's comments are not necessarily inaccurate, they are hyperbole at a time when both parties (government and the unions) are butting heads. Fact is, be it by a dime or by a million, AR needs the treasury's support.

I'd also suggest that the title be changed to something more accurate.
Last edited by dcajet on Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:59 pm

a350lover wrote:
At what extent can be this last "Aerolineas' crisis" be the consequence of the market liberalization?


To the extent that unions and part of the political opposition (populism) reject it. They see the expansion of other airlines and foreign investment in the sector as a direct threat to the airline's existence and the unions' power and ability to be the dominant voice in what wages and working conditions look like. Flybondi is their biggest "bete noir" with Norwegian next on the list. I suspect JetSmart will join them soon. Avianca and LATAM have been more union-friendly to a certain extent.
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a350lover
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:14 pm

dcajet wrote:
And while Mr. Malvido's comments are not necessarily inaccurate, they are hyperbole at a time when both parties (government and the unions) are butting heads. Fact is, be it by a dime or by a million, AR needs the treasury's support.

I'd also suggest that the title be changed to something more accurate.


It's Mr Malvido again who claims that they have no cash to pay for the wages other than funds from the Government - surely he might want to sound sensationalist in the way he warns about all this. In my opinion, Macri probably used this market liberalization to try out an hypothetical independent Aerolineas he dreamed of. It's hard to believe that the Argentinian Government got to subside every air ticket of Aerolineas with up to 135 dolars, in Dietrich's words. Now it's just 15, still far from that "hypothetical independent" company.

I am sorry to say this but Aerolineas is 100% the same thing Alitalia is for Italy. However, it's hard to compare these two since the home-markets where they operate are 100% different, being Italy part of a global-developed-common market (Europe), and Argentina just an "economy" (a big one) in South America.
 
Kadish
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:43 pm

cedars747 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
This feels like deja-vu...


I don't think they were ever out of this scenario, in my opinion they'll need to privatize if they want to see green numbers

They tried the privatization and it did not work. The company was privatized in 1990 by the Marsans Group of Spain and returned to state management of Argentina in 2008.


Returned is a nice n fake way to describe what happened then.
 
jfk777
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:54 pm

Time to let it die, the world doesn't need an Argentine Alitalia. This would be a disaster by posponing the inevitable just kill it and pension off the employees which are too many for an airline this size. Let private airlines fill in the market.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:30 pm

Francoflier wrote:
This feels like deja-vu...


If you want to spoil the final, go check Alitalia.
 
a350lover
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:53 pm

If Alitalia hasn't gone yet, the end of Aerolineas is miles and miles away I believe - which don't get me wrong, fine.

Who knows if despite all the dislikes the new entries of the local market has provoked on Aerolineas' employees, maybe in a few years time, they are a partner for the airline and the market can mature without the need of the legacy carrier to disappear which is always sad.
 
raylee67
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:58 pm

Air India, Alitalia and Aerolineas Argentinas should form their own airline alliance.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:15 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Americans don't need to look all the way to Argentina to find carriers with negative free cash flow.


Which U.S. airlines have a negative cash flow? Silver (just a guess based on their troubles getting the ATRs into service)? Who else?


AA is one. Go to the bottom.

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/s ... /cash-flow

Compare it to DL or WN.

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/s ... /cash-flow

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/s ... /cash-flow
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:17 pm

a350lover wrote:
Aerolineas' CEO has described the scenario pretty bad. The company has no money to pay wages and thus needs the State to add more investment to the national project. All flights suspended for November the 26th.

http://en.mercopress.com/2018/11/24/lab ... ovember-26


No cash flow? No money coming in, no money flowing out?

You mean that Aerolineas Argentinas has little or no cash, or cash reserves, I assume.
 
guillelds
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas no cash flow

Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:47 pm

Aerolineas has been always broke so this is an old fashion news. By the way, this could be an opportunity to a major player in LATAM such as LATAM, AVIANCA or other international carrier to take over the few AR's assets and to be the most important player in Argentina's air industry?

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