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jsnww81
Posts: 2541
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:23 pm

LupineChemist wrote:

I am based in MAD and try to fly AA in the US. Best I can figure it's a completely different people for those with status. The lounges have gotten much better and MCE is just fine for short haul. I don't really care about lav size since I'm trying to spend as little time as possible there.


Agree that if you have status - particularly EXP - flying AA really isn't too bad. My upgrade percentage is pretty solid (probably about 85% of flights) and you get complimentary access to MCE when it doesn't come through.

I do have to disagree on the lounge renovations, though - they feel so cold and clinical now, and the food offerings are still pretty processed and sad. At airports like LAX and JFK, they stole a ton of space from the Admirals Club to expand the Flagship Lounge. Now you have an Admirals Club that's standing room only most of the day and a Flagship Lounge that's vast and empty outside of peak periods. The Flagship Dining concept, while innovative, is a huge drain on very limited space - I haven't had the chance to try it myself, but the few times I've poked my head in there it's been completely empty.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:32 pm

slvrblt wrote:
AA had advanced a lot in some things but USAir rolled back the process, we have actually regressed in many areas back to 1980's processes and technology.


DL/NW did that too, and it hasn't stopped them.

The infighting at AA needs to stop. I bet this will go down like UA did. They will sacrifice a leader not because someone else is better, but because it gives the perception of change. Employees rally around that fluff. All of a sudden an airline starts performing better, and it had everything to do with the morale change.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:53 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
slvrblt wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
DL is a very good airline, but --to me-- AA is equally as good.
And that's great to hear. Thank you for the customer service.
So, as a customer, what specifically am I not noticing that would be "everything on the cheap" that is happening? Honest question.


Honest answer: If you're an elite freq flyer, you won't notice much. You get stuff. But if you're just 'someone' you're not going to get much assistance in irrops, other than the next AA flight, which is often ok. And, no meals/ food vouchers for company caused delays/cancellations other than whats offered at the gate. Overnite hotel stays get meals still.

There are times folks are just fedup with our crew issues and cancellations and want something else. No can do, now. And for business travelers without status or average people with a timeline, they have little recourse.

Before, when AA was 'at fault' in something, or if something was weather related, out of our control, you could usually find your path, you knew what to do for the passenger. Now........not so much. You have to be very cautious, ask someone or look up latest info (changed again) ! There's always a catch, or caveat. You do something good for a passenger that's 'unapproved' you get a writeup.
..everything works out in the end.
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:01 pm

I believe the article hit the nail on the head on this one. "People do not remember what you said, served, or happened. But they certainly remember how you make them feel." That goes along with almost any industry, especially ones with service oriented.

No one pays for commodity, but one would pay extra for exceptions, and/or exclusivity! Take a "secret" Disneyland Club 33 membership for example, invite only upon application, standby period up to 6+years, a $50K+ sign-on fee plus $30K+ annual membership fee and people still wait and pay for it! Why? Because it is exclusive!

American Airlines used to pride itself on being exclusive and never apologized for charging more, now it compares only with "no-thrill" airlines... Bring back the aspiration to have the Concierge Key, bring back Flagship Service, bring back chauffeur service to and from airport!
Last edited by pasu129 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
slvrblt
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:19 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:02 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
slvrblt wrote:
AA had advanced a lot in some things but USAir rolled back the process, we have actually regressed in many areas back to 1980's processes and technology.


DL/NW did that too, and it hasn't stopped them. The infighting at AA needs to stop. I bet this will go down like UA did. They will sacrifice a leader not because someone else is better, but because it gives the perception of change. Employees rally around that fluff. All of a sudden an airline starts performing better, and it had everything to do with the morale change.
ii

Glad you have it all so clear. Must be nice to be you. Nothing like demeaning and discounting other people's honest points of view, Wow, we all wish we were you.
..everything works out in the end.
 
musman9853
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:08 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
The masses just want a cheap seat on the bus, and, that's what they get. It took a long time to dumb-down the public,though, because a few generations needed to pass before people didn't know what economy flying USED to be like.



100% this. i fly american and oneworld with aadvantage not because they're the best, but because i get consistently cheap tickets. as nice as j or f is, i'll happily sit in y for 12 hours if it means it doesnt cost as much.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
musman9853
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:11 pm

DFW17L wrote:
capshandler wrote:
I’m quite a frequent AA flyer on the BCN-MIA and MIA-GUA and as far as from now, I’d never switch to another airline. Their Business product is great, the brand is surprisingly well managed compared to the industry average and people is professional and prepared. Proud customer here.


Agreed. I read the comments on a.net and it seems like I'm flying on a completely different airline. 25+ AA years customer and very happy with the service and product. m2c.



right? in quite a long time flying aa, i've really only had one bad experience with one checkin agent. otherwise aa and oneworld are perfectly competent and comfortable.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:23 pm

musman9853 wrote:
100% this. i fly american and oneworld with aadvantage not because they're the best, but because i get consistently cheap tickets. as nice as j or f is, i'll happily sit in y for 12 hours if it means it doesnt cost as much.


I fly AA the majority of the time because it's the cheapest and they have the most direct flights to places I want to go out of PHX as it's their hub.

That being said, I'm switching my preference mostly to DL when possible and practical.

DL still has IFE in their narrowbodies. DL hasn't crammed 10 abreast seating into their 777s. DL usually has more seat pitch. DL doesn't have those ridiculous tiny lavs that AA's MAXes are being delivered with.

And yet DL makes the largest profit disproving AA's notion that they need to become Spirit to become successful.

jsnww81 wrote:
I do have to disagree on the lounge renovations, though - they feel so cold and clinical now, and the food offerings are still pretty processed and sad.


This.

I don't care the new decor in some of the recently renovated ACs. It comes off as cold and sterile. It doesn't feel welcoming, it feels more like an Ikea store.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26287
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:26 pm

I always said when the merger happened that the toxic culture of US Airways that would be brought by it's management and employees would destroy the American brand.

It has.
a.
 
FermiParadox
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:29 pm

I think it's so funny when the AA Employees come out of the woodwork to blame Parker and team.

Most of AA's problems are attributable to a lazy and entitled workforce. So much of the AA experience would just be fixed by having friendlier crews. But instead, most are miserable sacks who can't spare a smile (free) or focus on service (again, free).

The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

AA employees are so entitled, they get what they want out of the merger (Horton out) and then turn around and whine more. It's literally the real life version of "If you give a mouse a cookie". I can't wait for another AA turn through bankruptcy. AA is in worse shape than pre-merger NW with regards to cancerous crews, and there ain't no more mergers to save them
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2559
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:30 pm

winginit wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
All I know is that in the US the industry has been to Hell and back. If they are finally making money as a group while not being world class, I’m good with that.

And what led them to hell? Their own mismanagment and negligence. Then they hid behind Ch11 to screw over their employees. And then they decided to return to profitability on the backs of their customers (i.e. ancillary fees). But hey, as long as it's all about the shareholder...


I mean... 9/11 was certainly a contributing factor towards their most recent trip to hell, or was your expectation that they should have managed with an incident like that in mind?

Somehow Southwest still did...and turned profits at the same time.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:30 pm

pasu129 wrote:
I believe the article hit the nail on the head on this one. "People do not remember what you said, served, or happened. But they certainly remember how you make them feel." That goes along with almost any industry, especially ones with service oriented.

No one pays for commodity, but one would pay extra for exceptions, and/or exclusivity! Take a "secret" Disneyland Club 33 membership for example, invite only upon application, standby period up to 6+years, a $50K+ sign-on fee plus $30K+ annual membership fee and people still wait and pay for it! Why? Because it is exclusive!

American Airlines used to pride itself on being exclusive and never apologized for charging more, now it compares only with "no-thrill" airlines... Bring back the aspiration to have the Concierge Key, bring back Flagship Service, bring back chauffeur service to and from airport!



What are you babbling about? They do all of that right now for the very elite travelers. They have upgraded flagship dinning and the clubs, you can get a Cadillac Concierge Key to take you from gate to gate at some airports. When did American charge more? And what pride are you talking about when Crandall removed one Olive from every 1st class salad to famously save $40k a year? Look there are plenty to complain legitimately about and a lot of things I'd do differently if I was in charge but please just stop making things up for the sake of bashing...
 
2175301
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:31 pm

Hmmm.... I personally believe that the FA has a point. Air-service within the US has changed dramatically over the decades. Yes you can fly cheaper... but there have been real cuts in real service as a result. I have flown AA 2-3 times in the last 2 years to get to places that Southwest does not fly. My experience is that there is a substantial difference between Southwest and AA in how the Gate Agents and FAs act and serve you.

Of course some of this is cultural differences from long ago. But, my recent experiences on AA is that their service has degraded from 5-7 years ago.

A reality is that I also don't buy the cheapest flights. I used to fly Midwest, and even for SW I buy the upgrade package up front. I'm not that interested in chasing the lowest fare. A reasonable fare at a reasonable schedule is desirable. I often pay a higher fair to get the schedule I want.

Have a great day,
 
Eirules
Posts: 1949
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:33 pm

I fly AA about 5 times a year in business on transatlantic and domestic round trips. Broadly I think they’re a good airline, decent product and competitive prices. They’re investing in lounges and a newer fleet and to be honest, I prefer them to BA these days. Yes there’s work to do such as the 767s & ex US A321s and there are some bad apples working there, but in the markets they operate I find them pretty good
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:36 pm

FermiParadox wrote:
I think it's so funny when the AA Employees come out of the woodwork to blame Parker and team.

Most of AA's problems are attributable to a lazy and entitled workforce. So much of the AA experience would just be fixed by having friendlier crews. But instead, most are miserable sacks who can't spare a smile (free) or focus on service (again, free).

The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

AA employees are so entitled, they get what they want out of the merger (Horton out) and then turn around and whine more. It's literally the real life version of "If you give a mouse a cookie". I can't wait for another AA turn through bankruptcy. AA is in worse shape than pre-merger NW with regards to cancerous crews, and there ain't no more mergers to save them


Exactly, also with the exception of the IFE almost everything else people complain about was pre Parker or Unavoidable (the MAX LAV, btw the picked the larger lav for the A321NEO which had a 2 LAV option). I'd like to see a little more honest and fairness on these bashing threads, but alas that is not likely.
 
AWACSooner
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:36 pm

FermiParadox wrote:
The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

It's easy to turn profits in this environment when fuel prices are modest, the amount of competition has been reduced due to mergers, and you're nickel and diming your customers for EVERYTHING
 
FermiParadox
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:41 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
FermiParadox wrote:
The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

It's easy to turn profits in this environment when fuel prices are modest, the amount of competition has been reduced due to mergers, and you're nickel and diming your customers for EVERYTHING


If that's true one would expect DL/UA/AA to report similar profit margins, but that hasn't been the case. Only recently has UA crossed AA and again, that's largely on the backs of improved morale at UA and continued (and worsening) entitlement at AA.
 
B737900ER
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:44 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I have had more delays on AA than all the Chinese carriers combined.

You must not fly in China much.
AA on time percentage: 78.2%

Air China: 60.1%
China Eastern: 61.8%
China Southern: 64.1%

But those are just facts. Your argument is emotional, so the stats probably won’t have much meaning.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 836
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Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:48 pm

slvrblt wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
slvrblt wrote:


Honest answer: If you're an elite freq flyer, you won't notice much. You get stuff. But if you're just 'someone' you're not going to get much assistance in irrops, other than the next AA flight, which is often ok. And, no meals/ food vouchers for company caused delays/cancellations other than whats offered at the gate. Overnite hotel stays get meals still.

There are times folks are just fedup with our crew issues and cancellations and want something else. No can do, now. And for business travelers without status or average people with a timeline, they have little recourse.

Before, when AA was 'at fault' in something, or if something was weather related, out of our control, you could usually find your path, you knew what to do for the passenger. Now........not so much. You have to be very cautious, ask someone or look up latest info (changed again) ! There's always a catch, or caveat. You do something good for a passenger that's 'unapproved' you get a writeup.


This is probably true, the difference between Admirals Club service at IRROPS and regular customer service is very noticeable.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2274
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Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:50 pm

slvrblt wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
slvrblt wrote:


Honest answer: If you're an elite freq flyer, you won't notice much. You get stuff. But if you're just 'someone' you're not going to get much assistance in irrops, other than the next AA flight, which is often ok. And, no meals/ food vouchers for company caused delays/cancellations other than whats offered at the gate. Overnite hotel stays get meals still.

There are times folks are just fedup with our crew issues and cancellations and want something else. No can do, now. And for business travelers without status or average people with a timeline, they have little recourse.

Before, when AA was 'at fault' in something, or if something was weather related, out of our control, you could usually find your path, you knew what to do for the passenger. Now........not so much. You have to be very cautious, ask someone or look up latest info (changed again) ! There's always a catch, or caveat. You do something good for a passenger that's 'unapproved' you get a writeup.


I do notice some of this. On all airlines I fly. I do fly in the front. But, if you are in the back and a non FF you are probably going to wait a lot longer for satisfaction during irrops than the frequent flyers. It's always been that way, and it is that way on all airlines. I have watched Joe Customer with no status at DL be put off a day and a half for next flight out--with little sympathy. Meanwhile, the DM is on the real next flight out. I experience various airlines and, honestly, the service you described is about the same as other airlines.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:50 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
I am based in MAD and try to fly AA in the US. Best I can figure it's a completely different people for those with status. The lounges have gotten much better and MCE is just fine for short haul.


IMO, status, and cabin, make the most difference on AA compared with DL and UA. I am DM on DL and EP on AA, 90%+ long haul. I cannot fly Y on any of the US3 (stage length combined with my height). On the long haul and short haul, I am indifferent between DL and AA, but I'm in F domestically. IME, the suckiness is not happening among elites in F or J.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:00 pm

777PHX wrote:
DL still has IFE in their narrowbodies. DL hasn't crammed 10 abreast seating into their 777s. DL usually has more seat pitch. DL doesn't have those ridiculous tiny lavs that AA's MAXes are being delivered with.

And yet DL makes the largest profit disproving AA's notion that they need to become Spirit to become successful.


Not to pick on you, but this is how people build perceptions that aren't reality.

-DL doesn't have AVOD on all narrowbodies. In fact, I know it wasn't long ago that over half of DL's mainline narrowbody flights still lacked AVOD. This summer, DL's highest margin and profit hubs (ATL, DTW, and MSP) had about two-thirds of their total mainline and regional flights on AVOD-less airplanes.
-DL doesn't have more seat pitch on average (AA does).
-DL has been flying around those ridiculous tiny lavs for over 5 years now!
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:02 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
FermiParadox wrote:
I think it's so funny when the AA Employees come out of the woodwork to blame Parker and team.

Most of AA's problems are attributable to a lazy and entitled workforce. So much of the AA experience would just be fixed by having friendlier crews. But instead, most are miserable sacks who can't spare a smile (free) or focus on service (again, free).

The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

AA employees are so entitled, they get what they want out of the merger (Horton out) and then turn around and whine more. It's literally the real life version of "If you give a mouse a cookie". I can't wait for another AA turn through bankruptcy. AA is in worse shape than pre-merger NW with regards to cancerous crews, and there ain't no more mergers to save them


Exactly, also with the exception of the IFE almost everything else people complain about was pre Parker or Unavoidable (the MAX LAV, btw the picked the larger lav for the A321NEO which had a 2 LAV option). I'd like to see a little more honest and fairness on these bashing threads, but alas that is not likely.


Most people don't give a shit who the CEO is of the airline they're flying. I wasn't criticizing Parker, I was criticizing AA's hard product, where they lag behind UA and DL.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 836
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:10 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
I am based in MAD and try to fly AA in the US. Best I can figure it's a completely different people for those with status. The lounges have gotten much better and MCE is just fine for short haul.


IMO, status, and cabin, make the most difference on AA compared with DL and UA. I am DM on DL and EP on AA, 90%+ long haul. I cannot fly Y on any of the US3 (stage length combined with my height). On the long haul and short haul, I am indifferent between DL and AA, but I'm in F domestically. IME, the suckiness is not happening among elites in F or J.


It might not be a terrible strategy, then. Get people that fly a few times a year on low fares there as is as the vast majority of that group will choose on price alone, and work to care for the high yield elites. I don't even fly premium cabins but definitely notice personalized care. And my status is with IB at that.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10885
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:16 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
777PHX wrote:
DL still has IFE in their narrowbodies. DL hasn't crammed 10 abreast seating into their 777s. DL usually has more seat pitch. DL doesn't have those ridiculous tiny lavs that AA's MAXes are being delivered with.

And yet DL makes the largest profit disproving AA's notion that they need to become Spirit to become successful.


Not to pick on you, but this is how people build perceptions that aren't reality.

-DL doesn't have AVOD on all narrowbodies. In fact, I know it wasn't long ago that over half of DL's mainline narrowbody flights still lacked AVOD. This summer, DL's highest margin and profit hubs (ATL, DTW, and MSP) had about two-thirds of their total mainline and regional flights on AVOD-less airplanes.
-DL doesn't have more seat pitch on average (AA does).
-DL has been flying around those ridiculous tiny lavs for over 5 years now!

AA employees shot themselves in the foot with the MAX lav thing. Their highly public distain for them (ie pilots complaining in the news that they are too small etc) is was what brought AA negative attention to the issue of small lavs in the planes, even though as you note other US airlines have also been shifting to similarly small torture lavs.

Some grievances are best kept internal within the company.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4339
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:24 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
777PHX wrote:
DL still has IFE in their narrowbodies. DL hasn't crammed 10 abreast seating into their 777s. DL usually has more seat pitch. DL doesn't have those ridiculous tiny lavs that AA's MAXes are being delivered with.

And yet DL makes the largest profit disproving AA's notion that they need to become Spirit to become successful.


Not to pick on you, but this is how people build perceptions that aren't reality.

-DL doesn't have AVOD on all narrowbodies. In fact, I know it wasn't long ago that over half of DL's mainline narrowbody flights still lacked AVOD. This summer, DL's highest margin and profit hubs (ATL, DTW, and MSP) had about two-thirds of their total mainline and regional flights on AVOD-less airplanes.
-DL doesn't have more seat pitch on average (AA does).
-DL has been flying around those ridiculous tiny lavs for over 5 years now!


But the Delta Kool-Aid jug said Delta is the best no matter what?

Delta is good at PR. But the actual butt-in-seat experience on AA, DL, and UA are very similar. It’s a matter of preference. Delta has great margins not because of their IFE, but because domestic traffic is very profitable, and that’s what they have the most capacity in. And where they have that capacity, they happen to hold dominant positions in. I guarantee SEA, LAX, BOS, and JFK aren’t leading their balance sheets right now. Delta won’t admit this to its employees, instead telling them over and over again that it’s the employees that are making all of this money for the company. It’s very deceptive internal marketing. But, it works. You can’t fault them for that method, but it’s very fake.
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:24 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
777PHX wrote:
DL still has IFE in their narrowbodies. DL hasn't crammed 10 abreast seating into their 777s. DL usually has more seat pitch. DL doesn't have those ridiculous tiny lavs that AA's MAXes are being delivered with.

And yet DL makes the largest profit disproving AA's notion that they need to become Spirit to become successful.


Not to pick on you, but this is how people build perceptions that aren't reality.

-DL doesn't have AVOD on all narrowbodies. In fact, I know it wasn't long ago that over half of DL's mainline narrowbody flights still lacked AVOD. This summer, DL's highest margin and profit hubs (ATL, DTW, and MSP) had about two-thirds of their total mainline and regional flights on AVOD-less airplanes.
-DL doesn't have more seat pitch on average (AA does).
-DL has been flying around those ridiculous tiny lavs for over 5 years now!



IFE - DL is currently taking delivery of A220s with IFE as we speak. AA ceased receiving new build narrowbody aircraft with IFE several years ago. DL's fleet is only increasing while AA's decreasing.

Seat pitch - If you look at both airlines' newest deliveries, AA is delivering 30" pitch in their MAXes while DL is delivering a wider seat with 31"-32" pitch in the A220. For reference, both Ryanair and Spirit have 30" pitch. DL's recent A321 deliveries are all 31" as well.

Lavs - I'll take your word for it.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2559
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
-DL has been flying around those ridiculous tiny lavs for over 5 years now!

Just curious, which planes? Cause I'm PM with em and I have yet to see any lavs on their planes that are as small as what AA has on the MAX's...but maybe I've missed the particular fleet type or particular lav on that plane.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:32 pm

AA lost my luggage on 3 consecutive flights so I never flew them again. That was 1982.
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:39 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

If the average price of a JFK-LAX ticket circa 1978 had inflated similarly to the price of milk over 40yrs, then coach on that route would be damn near $2K today.
If coach travelers were still paying fares like *that*, then airlines could justify having cocktail lounges and full meals, on 2hr flights outfitted to carry sub-80% of today's typical seating density.


Good estimate.

In 1983, my parents paid $900 to fly me non-stop LAX-IAD on United. $900 was the 30-day advance purchase fare in coach. The service was great --- hot towels in coach, hot meals that would be the equivalent today of domestic transcon first class meals, a snack before arrival, and plenty of legroom.

By 1986, fares started to drop on the transcon routes and so did the service levels.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:39 pm

FermiParadox wrote:
I think it's so funny when the AA Employees come out of the woodwork to blame Parker and team.

Most of AA's problems are attributable to a lazy and entitled workforce. So much of the AA experience would just be fixed by having friendlier crews. But instead, most are miserable sacks who can't spare a smile (free) or focus on service (again, free).

The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

AA employees are so entitled, they get what they want out of the merger (Horton out) and then turn around and whine more. It's literally the real life version of "If you give a mouse a cookie". I can't wait for another AA turn through bankruptcy. AA is in worse shape than pre-merger NW with regards to cancerous crews, and there ain't no more mergers to save them


AA does have some systems issues, and has since before the merger. Their archaic refund system is one many passengers have to endure from time to time.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MSPNWA
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Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:52 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Just curious, which planes? Cause I'm PM with em and I have yet to see any lavs on their planes that are as small as what AA has on the MAX's...but maybe I've missed the particular fleet type or particular lav on that plane.


It started with their 737-900s (and without a mid-cabin lav it's easily a contender for the worst configuration in the sky). And that has now continued with the Airbus equivalent in the A319/A320 retrofits and the new A321. That's nearly 300 aircraft with some sort of a slimline lav onboard. And UA has had the slimline lav in the air at least a couple months longer.
 
Flighty
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:57 pm

One town hall after US HP merged, an FA stood up and said the 767-200ER interiors were crap, held together with duct tape. Doug said he would look into it. With a few months, the company approved an interior refurbishment program for the 200ER and kept them going another 9 or so years.

If the FA has relevant details, it might get somewhere. Doug is absolutely about shareholders - as is his job. Doug used to work at jurassic AA too... it's not like he is unfamiliar with what it was. People get very proud of themselves. Doug has performed without a net for years. He's nearing the end of his time, but to say he is clueless... come on. The psychology of hospitality employees is always make this a Four Seasons mixed with Grey Gardens. The psychology of surgeons and pilots is always why am I not making three times as much money. It never changes. AA is known as a leader in MX, operational know-how just like DL. Inventor of Sabre... an original carrier of the jet age.. no need to go on. AA today stands up fine to its heritage. An airline is always a work in progress. If there is a strategy to perfect the product + image, now is the time. What is that specifically...
Last edited by Flighty on Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10885
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:57 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
FermiParadox wrote:
I think it's so funny when the AA Employees come out of the woodwork to blame Parker and team.

Most of AA's problems are attributable to a lazy and entitled workforce. So much of the AA experience would just be fixed by having friendlier crews. But instead, most are miserable sacks who can't spare a smile (free) or focus on service (again, free).

The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

AA employees are so entitled, they get what they want out of the merger (Horton out) and then turn around and whine more. It's literally the real life version of "If you give a mouse a cookie". I can't wait for another AA turn through bankruptcy. AA is in worse shape than pre-merger NW with regards to cancerous crews, and there ain't no more mergers to save them


AA does have some systems issues, and has since before the merger. Their archaic refund system is one many passengers have to endure from time to time.

Does AA still hand out vouchers that you cannot redeem online but instead must call AA and use over the phone then mail the voucher with your name and a confirmation number written on it to some processing facility?

That was something that blew my mind when I got voluntary bump compensation from AA about 2-3 years ago.
 
luckyone
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:01 pm

Isn't it a big disingenuous to claim that AA and DL have limited AVOD? Every AA and Delta flight I've taken in the last two years has streaming, regardless of whether or not there is a PTV in front of me. In the age when over 75% of the population has a smart phone, are we really quibbling about this?
 
VC10er
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:08 pm

As I’ve mentioned, I almost exclusively fly United. I’ve felt every up and down over 28 years. Because my last job required me to fly 200,000+ miles a year- I decided I’d cut back on everything else, but I’m NOT going back to economy. Except last night!
For reasons too long to explain, I gave up and flew a 738 from Miami to Newark in a Painline seat for 3 hours.
I got a refund of $800 when I switched. It made me think how much retirement money I’m spending flying paid F!
It wasn’t good. But it wasn’t bad either. Sure, tight squeeze as I’m 6ft tall with long legs. But, the aircraft looked great, brand new seats, spotlessly clean and the flight attendants were equally as nice as up front.
I did not eat or drink but I’d have been happy to pay for it if I did.
I traveled with a friend from Madrid who both ways could not believe how nice TC was and took photos for his Instagram page.
He HATES AA as he had to fly them when an Iberia flight was operated by AA.
It’s just a couple of stories but perhaps UA is finding its MOJO finally- and now AA is behind?
We did fly down in F and had a 752: he could not believe one could get a bed seat on a domestic trip (I didn’t have the heart to tell him that was sort of a fluke) BUT, it did cause my friend to think that UA was not a commodity, because he thought Economy was just great for a 3 hour flight.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
YouGeeElWhy
Posts: 491
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:11 pm

Having in seat IFE rather than BYOD style IFE is better if you are traveling with kids.

While I would admit DL is better at the moment than UA and AA, it seems their product has started to slip back to a degree. How DL is able to derive that revenue premium is likely related to them having stratified their domestic flying to a greater degree (they have W, AA/UA does not). With DL's product going back and the likely hood of AA and UA introducing W fare class on domestic flights the US3 will be very hard to tell one from another in the next 3 or 4 years.
Last edited by YouGeeElWhy on Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
osupoke07
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:12 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
AA lost my luggage on 3 consecutive flights so I never flew them again. That was 1982.


Well it's a good thing there's been no improvement in technology in 35 years that could try to change your opinion (/s). I can track the progress of my bag through the system every time an agent scanned it.

The Sunday after Thanksgiving, I had my first flight of the day canceled at a remote station. I was able to re-book myself through the AA app before the rest of the flight got to the airport, thus securing my departure seat on one of maybe 10 available seats that the other 75 people were fighting for. That alone was impressive to me. I'm sure Delta, United, and Southwest all have similar capability, but yesterday, AA's tech worked flawlessly for me and saved me from spending the night somewhere other than my home.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:12 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
All I know is that in the US the industry has been to Hell and back. If they are finally making money as a group while not being world class, I’m good with that.

And what led them to hell? Their own mismanagment and negligence. Then they hid behind Ch11 to screw over their employees. And then they decided to return to profitability on the backs of their customers (i.e. ancillary fees). But hey, as long as it's all about the shareholder...


D00d--it is all about the shareholder! Whom else should it be? If you're talking about a 'fair' wage and a 'just' amount of return to shareholders, you're talking Air France--or Alitalia.

("In Soviet Russia, airplane flies you!")
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 741
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:17 pm

The flying public has clearly shown their willingness to get treated like animal dung in order to save $50. Its Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant growing like crazy. So the legacies, for the exception to a certain extent WN feel the need to emulate what the guys making the fat margins are doing. The downfall of flying unless you (or your employer) ponies up the big bucks for business can be laid at the feet of the flying public.

What I hope in the next economic downturn is that besides me keeping a job suddenly the flying public no longer has a couple extra hundred to take the kiddies down to see Mickey and suddenly Spirit, etc. are flying around half empty planes. But even that's probably a pipe dream.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14631
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:18 pm

Polot wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
FermiParadox wrote:
I think it's so funny when the AA Employees come out of the woodwork to blame Parker and team.

Most of AA's problems are attributable to a lazy and entitled workforce. So much of the AA experience would just be fixed by having friendlier crews. But instead, most are miserable sacks who can't spare a smile (free) or focus on service (again, free).

The idea that Parker should do what AA did in the 90s and chase after white elephants because "passengers want them" is so myopic it hurts. AA ended up in bankruptcy. Parker is giving people what they want. Don't believe me? Tell me who the CEO was for AA's 3 most profitable years. I'll wait.

AA employees are so entitled, they get what they want out of the merger (Horton out) and then turn around and whine more. It's literally the real life version of "If you give a mouse a cookie". I can't wait for another AA turn through bankruptcy. AA is in worse shape than pre-merger NW with regards to cancerous crews, and there ain't no more mergers to save them


AA does have some systems issues, and has since before the merger. Their archaic refund system is one many passengers have to endure from time to time.

Does AA still hand out vouchers that you cannot redeem online but instead must call AA and use over the phone then mail the voucher with your name and a confirmation number written on it to some processing facility?

That was something that blew my mind when I got voluntary bump compensation from AA about 2-3 years ago.


I can't help you there. I had a period about 10 years ago where I was taking a tremendous number of VDBs from AA (on AX and RP flights from STL to the east coast that had to leave passengers in poor weather). At that time, you had to redeem them in person. IIRC it was possible to book online, put the ticket on hold, and pay at the airport, but it was a giant pain.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 217
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:50 pm

American Airlines service is little to non-existent. I had to fly them in F class out of DEN and it was awful. Rude service from staff and little soft product. Flew on an outdated plane. American used to be great in the 1990s and 2000s. Now they are hardly better than F9. I hope they can improve to Delta levels.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:57 pm

I do think the DL 220 IFE is clearly the future by just basically having tablets embedded into the seats that run off of the streaming system I can't imagine that style will become universal over all carriers in the not too distant future. A tablet barely adds to the cost of a seat and you already need to wire for in seat power anyway these days.
 
zippy
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:26 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
I do notice some of this. On all airlines I fly. I do fly in the front. But, if you are in the back and a non FF you are probably going to wait a lot longer for satisfaction during irrops than the frequent flyers. It's always been that way, and it is that way on all airlines. I have watched Joe Customer with no status at DL be put off a day and a half for next flight out--with little sympathy. Meanwhile, the DM is on the real next flight out. I experience various airlines and, honestly, the service you described is about the same as other airlines.


I don't fly that often, I don't maintain status with any airline, and Delta (only the regionals though) is the only airline that's consistently late for me. Ops in/out of SEA are consistently the worst, but I've gotten stuck in ATL for a few hours when our little CRJ-200 broke down. Yet there's only one domestic airline I refuse to fly -- United (although Alaska is working on that). Even without status, Delta's usually managed to get me onto the connecting flight as booked. Even without status, Delta manages to communicate what was going on (gotta love the red coats).

The last delay I had on Delta was out of PDX due to snow, we'd boarded and got stuck at the gate for a few hours and a couple deicing sessions. I was on an Expedia bargain fare (a.k.a. the lowest tier) and by the time we pushed back it was clear I was going to miss the connecting flight so I started to make arrangements for overnight lodging. Between the time we touched down and got to the gate the Delta app buzzed and indicated that I'd been rebooked on the last flight out on Alaska. I'd booked a Y+ seat on the connecting flight which Alaska doesn't offer, so I called Delta the next day to ask for a refund on the upgrade. I got a refund and a voucher for more than the cost of the upgrade. I'm sure it's worse when there are weather issues at a hub, but so far my experience has been that Delta hasn't stranded me.

As for American, I've flown them a few times in the past couple years and didn't come up with any major complaints. I upgraded to business SFO-JFK last year for the novelty. The food was okay (Virgin America was better) and the seat had some mystery stains on it though. They overbooked the SFO-MIA flight, but managed to avoid a Dr. Dao moment by actually offering enough money to get people off the plane without a fight. And the grizzled ex-Piedmont F/A on the CLT-SFO flight was perfectly friendly and the cabin was fine. That seat pitch stunt on the max is enough reason to look elsewhere though.

I nearly never book based solely on ticket price, and always filter out the crap "basic economy" fares. The big exception is last minute travel where the difference can be more than a few hundred dollars on a short hop up or down the west coast. Likewise I don't see IFE or WiFi as a big plus. My last two United flights (789, 744) the IFE was a net negative. Every time the purser had to reset it on the 789 you'd lose control of the overhead lamps. When he finally crashed my IFE he decided to stop resetting it. On the 747 the speakers on the left side of the cabin were out of sync with those on the right. Absolutely nauseating (although less so than those vomit noodles and spoiled process cheese they served).
 
Austin787
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:32 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
What I hope in the next economic downturn is that besides me keeping a job suddenly the flying public no longer has a couple extra hundred to take the kiddies down to see Mickey and suddenly Spirit, etc. are flying around half empty planes. But even that's probably a pipe dream.

If history is any indication, the ULCCs such as Spirit will continue to thrive and the legacies will post big losses and file bankruptcy. The "Disney" travelers on Spirit will be replaced by business travelers looking to save money, and the legacies who depend heavily on business travel will fly around half-empty planes.

AA is trying to turn into an ULCC, but they only offer the ULCC product while they have legacy costs and fares.
 
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chepos
Posts: 7273
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Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:50 pm

I grew up flying AA, one had little options out of SJU in the 90s. I do not recall this glamorous service the airline supposedly had back then. The A300s used to the Caribbean frequently broke down (nothing industry leading on those planes at least the ones used down south) and most crews where never very friendly back then either. One always looks at the past with rose colored glasses. Note, I fly for AA and I admit our service definitely needs improvement but AA has struggled with service going back years, this is not a thing from 5 years ago.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2559
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:59 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:

D00d--it is all about the shareholder! Whom else should it be? If you're talking about a 'fair' wage and a 'just' amount of return to shareholders, you're talking Air France--or Alitalia.

("In Soviet Russia, airplane flies you!")

And that's the mentality that drives threads like this...screw the pax...screw the employees...maximize the $$ for the shareholders at all costs!
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4858
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:01 am

ImperialEagle wrote:
The masses just want a cheap seat on the bus, and, that's what they get. It took a long time to dumb-down the public,though, because a few generations needed to pass before people didn't know what economy flying USED to be like.

More expensive.
MUCH more expensive?
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: “Our Standards Suck!”

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:36 am

AWACSooner wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:

D00d--it is all about the shareholder! Whom else should it be? If you're talking about a 'fair' wage and a 'just' amount of return to shareholders, you're talking Air France--or Alitalia.

("In Soviet Russia, airplane flies you!")

And that's the mentality that drives threads like this...screw the pax...screw the employees...maximize the $$ for the shareholders at all costs!


Is Doug putting a gun to your head and insisting you fly AA?

Sounds like you want Bernie for President and Ocasio-Cortez running a reconstituted CAB. Penn Central Airways. No thanks.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Article: AA Flight Attendant Told the CEO: Our Standards 'Suck' Compared With United's and Delta's.

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:57 am

Austin787 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
What I hope in the next economic downturn is that besides me keeping a job suddenly the flying public no longer has a couple extra hundred to take the kiddies down to see Mickey and suddenly Spirit, etc. are flying around half empty planes. But even that's probably a pipe dream.

If history is any indication, the ULCCs such as Spirit will continue to thrive and the legacies will post big losses and file bankruptcy. The "Disney" travelers on Spirit will be replaced by business travelers looking to save money, and the legacies who depend heavily on business travel will fly around half-empty planes.

AA is trying to turn into an ULCC, but they only offer the ULCC product while they have legacy costs and fares.



Good Lord what bs. Shouldn't there be some reasonable expectation of facts or opinions that have at least a 1% chance of happening?

I assume you have taken a short position on the stock if you feel so strongly about it going BK.

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