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LXwing
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:32 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:30 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Do we have a seat map? I can't find one anywhere.... weird.


It will be C34Y+96Y168. I'll post a seat map later if I can. ;)
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:40 pm

Nevertheless, an airline with 91 frames in its fleet is not exactly small. Not a great player, but not small.
 
Duartelmatos
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:33 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:53 am

a350lover wrote:
JFK, BOS, EWR... maybe SFO. Which U.S destination should come first for the TAP's A330neo welcome?

A bit off topic, but I see a tremendous potential for future American-West-Coast connections. Hard to believe Norwegian hasn't stepped forward to launch the yet unserved San Francisco (or OAK)- Lisbon (Tap will enter the market in 2019). Same with LAX-LIS. Taking into account the giant boom which LIS has seen with tourism (the "new Barcelona" - they call it!), must be related to the lack of slots in Portela.


It´s MIA!
 
horwoolol
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:22 pm

Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:41 pm

horwoolol wrote:
Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.


Wrong. Its the earlier versions of the Trent 1000 that have had the major problems.

Then TEN, XWB, and 7000 are designed in a way that these problems will not exist.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:16 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
horwoolol wrote:
Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.


Wrong. Its the earlier versions of the Trent 1000 that have had the major problems.

Then TEN, XWB, and 7000 are designed in a way that these problems will not exist.


It is hard to predict how well the 7000 will do in service since engine testing has been delayed:

From Nov 27, 2018:
Rolls-Royce has “not yet completed” the full engine strip-down and inspection following the 3,000-cycle test, says EASA.

It states that the programme delays have not allowed sufficient time to perform the complete disassembly prior to entry into service.

“The failure to show full compliance from a detailed strip examination at 3,000 cycles life is seen as a reduction in the confidence, which is normally required for full ETOPS approval,” says EASA.

It is granting 180min ETOPS along with the engine-cycle restriction as a mitigation measure.

“This is a conservative approach, restricting usage well within the demonstrated levels, and thereby giving confidence in engine reliability,” says EASA.

But it adds that Rolls-Royce needs to demonstrate full compliance before the end of December, else ETOPS approval will be “withdrawn”.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... an-453946/

There problems from the 1000 may have been fixed, but what will happen when this engine is actually in service? Entering service with a 500 cycle life limit is a cautious approach.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:28 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TAP does not seem to be suspicious in regards to the engines, perhaps they have more information than you?


TAP received A330neos with engines that have ETOPS approval that is only valid for 500 cycles. I Don’t see how TAP wouldn’t be suspicious of that ETOPS approval. In my opinion, the Trent 7000 engine was not ready for delivery for an ETOPS operator. Preparing to enter service with a restriction that may result in replacing engines on A checks is not where TAP would want to be. Hopefully full ETOPS approval comes soon once testing is completed. EASA is being cautious with the Trent 7000 approval which implies they may be suspicious. Time will reveal more.
 
LXwing
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:32 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:30 am

NZ321 wrote:
Do we have a seat map? I can't find one anywhere.... weird.


Here you are, from the horse's mouth. It's C34 Y+96 Y168
http://ibb.co/gSXV9Js
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:58 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TAP does not seem to be suspicious in regards to the engines, perhaps they have more information than you?


TAP received A330neos with engines that have ETOPS approval that is only valid for 500 cycles. I Don’t see how TAP wouldn’t be suspicious of that ETOPS approval. In my opinion, the Trent 7000 engine was not ready for delivery for an ETOPS operator. Preparing to enter service with a restriction that may result in replacing engines on A checks is not where TAP would want to be. Hopefully full ETOPS approval comes soon once testing is completed. EASA is being cautious with the Trent 7000 approval which implies they may be suspicious. Time will reveal more.

That restriction is for ETOPS 180 and above only, isn't it? TAP does not need ETOPS 180 on any of its routes. They don't even need ETOPS 120 for like 90% of their routes.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:28 am

airbazar wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TAP does not seem to be suspicious in regards to the engines, perhaps they have more information than you?


TAP received A330neos with engines that have ETOPS approval that is only valid for 500 cycles. I Don’t see how TAP wouldn’t be suspicious of that ETOPS approval. In my opinion, the Trent 7000 engine was not ready for delivery for an ETOPS operator. Preparing to enter service with a restriction that may result in replacing engines on A checks is not where TAP would want to be. Hopefully full ETOPS approval comes soon once testing is completed. EASA is being cautious with the Trent 7000 approval which implies they may be suspicious. Time will reveal more.

That restriction is for ETOPS 180 and above only, isn't it? TAP does not need ETOPS 180 on any of its routes. They don't even need ETOPS 120 for like 90% of their routes.


While approval for 330min ETOPS is being sought for the Trent 7000-powered twinjet, the European Aviation Safety Agency states that the manufacturer has yet to complete particular inspections.

The A330-900 has been cleared for 180min ETOPS but with an engine-use limitation of 500 cycles.

EASA outlines several criteria for “early ETOPS” certification, which permits ETOPS clearance at entry into service of a new aircraft and engine combination.

It requires an approval plan to be submitted to EASA, including a validation test simulating ETOPS service comprising 3,000 full start-stop cycles, from take-off through to landing and reverse thrust, plus three simulated diversions for the ETOPS level sought.


And some more information

This is a conservative approach, restricting usage well within the demonstrated levels, and thereby giving confidence in engine reliability,” says EASA.

But it adds that Rolls-Royce needs to demonstrate full compliance before the end of December, else ETOPS approval will be “withdrawn”


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... an-453946/

This does not imply there is something wrong with the engine. The problem is that due to delays, the engine did not complete testing before delivery
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:08 am

A330neo. A320neo. 737 MAX. 787. etc. Any carrier taking delivery of a new model with a new/derivative engine that ISN'T concerned/wary needs to have their head examined. That doesn't mean that there will be problems. It means they need to have realistic expectations as well as contingency plans.

Anyhow, great to see the A330neo take to the skies in revenue service, and in one of my favorite liveries out there.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:23 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
A330neo. A320neo. 737 MAX. 787. etc. Any carrier taking delivery of a new model with a new/derivative engine that ISN'T concerned/wary needs to have their head examined. That doesn't mean that there will be problems. It means they need to have realistic expectations as well as contingency plans.

Anyhow, great to see the A330neo take to the skies in revenue service, and in one of my favorite liveries out there.


Airlines tend to have quite large entry into service teams. Engineering, flight operations, airport operations, maintenance, purchasing/procurement all need to prepare for the new plane. An airline will have a team of a dozen people workin on the phase in for a year or more. There is a significant amount of paperwork and training required. Every detail matters since not having the right towbar at an airport or not having the cable to maintenance laptop can cancel a flight. There are bound to be areas of concern and suspicion.

Having engine overhaul contracts and adequate spare coverage is important. Having to wait for full ETOPS approval can create challenges for the propulsion engineering department. They have to predict life on wing, develop inspection and boroscope requirements, maintain control limits for performance, monitor ETOPS parameters, etc. The delays in the Trent 7000 add complexity for the airline.
 
horwoolol
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:04 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
horwoolol wrote:
Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.


Wrong. Its the earlier versions of the Trent 1000 that have had the major problems.

Then TEN, XWB, and 7000 are designed in a way that these problems will not exist.



I don’t like the fact either, but they really do have big problems with the 7000 and TEN. XWB 84k had entered service really well, and I agree, looks a healthy engine. But to think the TEN and 7000 are immune from all earlier 1000 issues is simply naive.
 
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JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:15 pm

horwoolol wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
horwoolol wrote:
Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.


Wrong. Its the earlier versions of the Trent 1000 that have had the major problems.

Then TEN, XWB, and 7000 are designed in a way that these problems will not exist.



I don’t like the fact either, but they really do have big problems with the 7000 and TEN. XWB 84k had entered service really well, and I agree, looks a healthy engine. But to think the TEN and 7000 are immune from all earlier 1000 issues is simply naive.


Did RR not state a while ago that they expected any issues that may arise would be limited to the earliest TENs and 7000s and could be dealt with "at their first scheduled shop visit"? Is that still the expectation?
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:36 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
This does not imply there is something wrong with the engine. The problem is that due to delays, the engine did not complete testing before delivery

I think a better way to put is that it did indeed completed the testing but due to the delays the tested engines have not been examined yet. At least that's what I understood from reading the article. Also, the article is not clear to me whether an airline that does not need ETOPS180 such as TAP, is subjected to this 500 cycle limit.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:53 pm

airbazar wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
This does not imply there is something wrong with the engine. The problem is that due to delays, the engine did not complete testing before delivery

I think a better way to put is that it did indeed completed the testing but due to the delays the tested engines have not been examined yet. At least that's what I understood from reading the article. Also, the article is not clear to me whether an airline that does not need ETOPS180 such as TAP, is subjected to this 500 cycle limit.


I don’t think TAP got a lower level of ETOPS approval. I’m not sure EASA gave a lower interim limit without cycle restrictions.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
This does not imply there is something wrong with the engine. The problem is that due to delays, the engine did not complete testing before delivery

I think a better way to put is that it did indeed completed the testing but due to the delays the tested engines have not been examined yet. At least that's what I understood from reading the article. Also, the article is not clear to me whether an airline that does not need ETOPS180 such as TAP, is subjected to this 500 cycle limit.


I don’t think TAP got a lower level of ETOPS approval. I’m not sure EASA gave a lower interim limit without cycle restrictions.

I'm probably wrong but I was under the impression that ETOPS120 would be required before attaining ETOPS180 and that the certification requirements for 180 are a lot more stringent than 120. That would explain why every article I've read about this issue makes a references to ETOPS 180 only.
 
sciing
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:54 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:49 pm

horwoolol wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
horwoolol wrote:
Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.


Wrong. Its the earlier versions of the Trent 1000 that have had the major problems.

Then TEN, XWB, and 7000 are designed in a way that these problems will not exist.



I don’t like the fact either, but they really do have big problems with the 7000 and TEN. XWB 84k had entered service really well, and I agree, looks a healthy engine. But to think the TEN and 7000 are immune from all earlier 1000 issues is simply naive.


Maybe we all become less naive if you would explain details to your statement "big problems with the 7000 and TEN" instead of repeating it.
Thank you.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10852
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Re: TAP receives first A330Neop

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:14 pm

airbazar wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I think a better way to put is that it did indeed completed the testing but due to the delays the tested engines have not been examined yet. At least that's what I understood from reading the article. Also, the article is not clear to me whether an airline that does not need ETOPS180 such as TAP, is subjected to this 500 cycle limit.


I don’t think TAP got a lower level of ETOPS approval. I’m not sure EASA gave a lower interim limit without cycle restrictions.

I'm probably wrong but I was under the impression that ETOPS120 would be required before attaining ETOPS180 and that the certification requirements for 180 are a lot more stringent than 120. That would explain why every article I've read about this issue makes a references to ETOPS 180 only.

I don’t think there is any rule that says you must be certified at ETOPS120 before ETOPS180. RR was shooting for ETOPS330 at EIS. They ended up getting ETOPS180 with restrictions until all data is reviewed/any additional testing completed.

The EASA engine certificate specifically states ETOPS is restricted to engines of a life less than 500 EFC, it doesn’t say ETOPS180 is limited to that. https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... e%2012.pdf (Pg26)
 
tepidhalibut
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:19 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:20 am

I hate to spoil a good argument with some facts, but...
    If you are gaining ETOPS approval by the traditional route - demonstrated in-service reliability - then ETOPS approval will grow in steps. ETOPS 60, to ETOPS 90 to ETOPS 120 to ETOPS 180, as service hours builds up, and reliability experience increases.
    However, in modern times, there is Early ETOPS ("ETOPS out of the Box") - based upon reliability demonstrated by prototype engine testing, design heritage and analysis. That allows EIS with a 180 mins ETOPS approval. As the Trent7000 has done here.

However, things have been happening. Yesterday, EASA reissued the Trent 1000/7000 TCDS, and that removes the 500 cycle limitation while increasing the approval to "a Maximum Approved Diversion Time of 330 minutes at Maximum Continuous thrust plus 15 minutes at hold thrust." There's no discussion of why there was a two-step ETOP approval, possibly just a timing issue.

What ever the reason, Saul Goodman.
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:13 pm

One month in and TAP is now flying all A339's, 18 weekly and 3x some days on the LIS-GRU route without any problems, seemingly. So much for those teething issues that some people were anticipating :)
 
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Slug71
Posts: 1494
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:05 pm

horwoolol wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
horwoolol wrote:
Rolls-Royce has huge problems with the TEN, and will with the 7000 too. Both will be severely life limited. Adding MRO capacity aggressively, but likely not quick enough with all the B and C 1000 issues.


Wrong. Its the earlier versions of the Trent 1000 that have had the major problems.

Then TEN, XWB, and 7000 are designed in a way that these problems will not exist.



I don’t like the fact either, but they really do have big problems with the 7000 and TEN. XWB 84k had entered service really well, and I agree, looks a healthy engine. But to think the TEN and 7000 are immune from all earlier 1000 issues is simply naive.


Quit spreading nonsense. The T1000-TEN and T7000 (and XWB) do not have "problems" like the earlier 1000s.
Their "problem" was production ramp-up and the supply chain.
That is now beginning to be resolved.
 
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flee
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:16 pm

Yes, RR saw the design of the T1000-TEN as an opportunity to update the T1000 to incorporate the technologies found on the XWB.

That is why all models of RR T1000 B787 engines henceforth will be the T1000-TEN.

airbazar wrote:
One month in and TAP is now flying all A339's, 18 weekly and 3x some days on the LIS-GRU route without any problems, seemingly. So much for those teething issues that some people were anticipating :)

I think the news will be all over a.net if the A339 was so much as to scratch its sharklet on pushback!

It would seem that the introduction of their A339 is pretty smooth so far and more aircraft will be delivered soon - MSN 1904/CS-TUG had its first flight on 22 Jan.
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 3192
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Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:43 pm

Polot wrote:
PW100 wrote:
flee wrote:
Lisbon to São Paulo in Brazil will be the first route.

TAP are also planning A321 LR transatlantic services.

See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ap-453899/


Interesting bits from FlightGlobal:

Two further aircraft will arrive before year-end, with another 15 to be delivered in 2019.

TAP chief executive Antonoaldo Neves, speaking at a delivery ceremony in Toulouse, said that by the end of next year, 78% of the carrier's flown block hours will be on the A330-900.


Not too surprising- by end of next year the 4 A333s will be gone, the 4 A343s will be gone, and the older A332s will be probably be gone, with the A339s on all the longer routes to maximize fuel efficiency.


Apparently they plan to deploy the A339 on shorter routes as well. I'm booked on TP262 (YYZ-LIS) in early July. It is showing now the A339 instead of A332.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
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AECM
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:52 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:02 pm

At the moment TAP Portugal A339NEO fleet consists of:

CS-TUB
CS-TUC
CS-TUD
CS-TUF
CS-TUG* (arrived on the 14/03 and still haven't enter commercial service)

The planes have been flying from LIS to:

GRU
SSA
BSB
CNF

And seems that tomorrow there will be a new destination = MIA
 
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AECM
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:52 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Wed May 01, 2019 5:50 pm

At this moment TAP209 (LIS-JFK) is being operated by an A339NEO CS-TUD.
 
windian425
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:22 am

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Wed May 01, 2019 5:59 pm

Also seen these A339's operating LIS-MIA.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Wed May 01, 2019 6:20 pm

Their fleet total is up to 7 at this point but only 5 are in ops so far. Pretty soon I'd expect to see them just about everywhere the A330's fly except Africa.
Not surprisingly they have made an appearance in TP's most important long haul routes: BSB, GRU, SSA, CNF, MIA, JFK. SFO which starts June 10th will also be an A339 route.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: TAP receives first A330Neo

Wed May 01, 2019 6:26 pm

Been flying back from SSA great looking plane, didn't get over impressed compared to the 332 that I flown for the outbound. Ok everything was new, great IFE, but I didn't like the humidification, it was almost cold... And maybe because I was sitting in coach it wasn't very silent. Still love the A380 over anything else... But I still miss the 789 and A350...

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