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rotating14
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Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:40 pm

It appears that Airbus is trying to splash cold water on the proposed 797 by Boeing. Airbus is proposing a regional version of the A330NEO. I was under the impression that Airbus said that the A321neo was the MOM plane and that they were was no need to do anything regarding the 797. Times have changed.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... d-size-jet
Last edited by SQ22 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title was misleading
 
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Slug71
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Re: Next Gen A330NEO?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:49 pm

It seems the plan is to have the A321NEO cover the lower end, while the A330NEO Regional will cover the upper end.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:16 pm

Good luck. Attempts to adapt long-range widebodies to regional service without stretching them have not fared well. They remain too heavy.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 pm

Maybe it's not intended as a MoM competitor, but for the Asian market full of A330s that would need replacing soon enough. Airbus could definitely benefit from some more orders for the A330neo so it's not such a wild concept. After all there is an A330 Regional...
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:27 pm

The A330ceo Regional did well in China -though probably at end of line pricing.

Word is that Asian airlines would prefer a MoM with better freight capacity than what Boeing may have in mind for the 797 to meet US needs, a requirement that the 330 can meet.

JAL will shortly be deploying A350s for domestic high frequency use.

So, who knows? Airbus may be able to chip away some market share at the top end of the MoM window with this development, as well as at the bottom end with the 321(X) LR. Strategically they do not need to beat the 797 technologically, only to weaken its business case.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:19 pm

The market for airliners is so brutally competitive that “almost as good” isn’t good enough. The 767 could not compete with the A330. The A330NEO is not faring well against the 787, and Boeing realized that the 777 would stand no chance against the A350 without major improvement. And they had to both stretch it and give it a totally new wing and engines to make it competitive. The only reason that the 737MAX continues to sell well is that Airbus cannot begin to produce enough A32xNEO’s to meet the demand. As it is they have gone from 50% to 40% of the narrowbody market. So I think the chances for a revamp of the A330NEO (whose wing, by the way, is even older than the original 777) competing successfully with a brand new, purpose built airliner is pretty poor. The 797 will be optimized for the regional mission, and will have newer engines than the A330NEO. It will be the A346 against the 77W all over again.
Last edited by SEPilot on Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:31 pm

This is what Delta will order to replace their 767 fleet.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:35 pm

rotating14 wrote:
It appears that Airbus is trying to splash cold water on the proposed 797 by Boeing. Airbus is proposing a regional version of the A330NEO. I was under the impression that Airbus said that the A321neo was the MOM plane and that they were was no need to do anything regarding the 797. Times have changed.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... d-size-jet


Not really. The MoM is supposed to be something that is 220-270 passengers. They got the lower end of it covered with the A321neo.

The paper de-rate of the A330neo is not a spectacular counter to the 797 at the upper end but could be offered as an alternative to satisfy that market at pretty much no cost to develop. If anyone (lessors in particular) wanted the flexibility to turn it into a long-range jet, they could do it with a simple software upgrade. It won't be any different to them selling A330ceo/A350 regionals.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:35 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Good luck. Attempts to adapt long-range widebodies to regional service without stretching them have not fared well. They remain too heavy.

:checkmark:

The article is describing a paper de-rate, which is a nice offering, but not very compelling.

SEPilot wrote:
The market for airliners is so brutally competitive that “almost as good” isn’t good enough. The 767 could not compete with the A330NEO. The A330NEO is not faring well against the 787, and Boeing realized that the 777 would stand no chance against the A350 without major improvement. And they had to both stretch it and give it a totally new wing and engines to make it competitive. The only reason that the 737MAX continues to sell well is that Airbus cannot begin to produce enough A32xNEO’s to meet the demand. As it is they have gone from 50% to 40% of the narrowbody market. So I think the chances for a revamp of the A330NEO (whose wing, by the way, is even older than the original 777) competing successfully with a brand new, purpose built airliner is pretty poor. The 797 will be optimized for the regional mission, and will have newer engines than the A330NEO. It will be the A346 against the 77W all over again.

I know others disagree, but I find the current Team A responses, with A321XLR not even getting to A321+ level, and A330Rneo now being mooted, are leaving a nice opening for NMA/797. It's clear that Airbus will eventually do A321++ with a new CFRP wing, but that still will leave a gap for the NMA to fill, IMHO.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 pm

This is becoming eerily reminiscent of the A350mk1 VS A350XWB saga all over again.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:09 am

this smells like desperation from airbus. no way a simple shrink or derate matches the efficiency of a clean sheet
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:19 am

musman9853 wrote:
this smells like desperation from airbus. no way a simple shrink or derate matches the efficiency of a clean sheet


The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:33 am

I think this is just a public statement to scare off Boeing. I don't think that Boeing is scared of anything Airbus has to offer, but I do think they are (rightfully) scared that the MoM is too small a market to invest billions on a clean sheet aircraft. The 757 sold 1000 planes, and the 767 only a little bit more. If Boeing could replace 100% of those planes themselves, it would probably be profitable, but they have already cannibalized some of those replacements with much more capable 737's than 30 years ago, and the 787, and some customers have already found replacements in existing A330's and A321's. I would be shocked if there were 1000 orders waiting to be had in the next 20 years for the sliver in between. Airlines want the plane, but even the most eager airlines aren't going to buy 200 of them.

Airbus might be serious about this proposal, or they might just be bluffing, but anyone can see that with all the hesitation, Boeing is not ready to commit, and one more threat to the already slim potential sales might just tip them to abandon the project, leaving it entirely to the already developed A321LR.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:51 am

Did anyone actually buy a A330ceo regional besides Saudia?
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 am

:old:
And I think it is just a placating statement for concerned customers or shareholders. So they know Airbus is aware of the situation/threat and has a solution in place and at the ready.

(And of course we here all know it is not a real solution but rather just hand-holding for the nervous and that any true solution will not and cannot be crafted until Airbus actually knows what it is competing against.)

Okay, I'm done....
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Last edited by Tugger on Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 am

More confirmation that the 797 will be launched w large orders from blue chip airlines.

The aviation business has very long time horizons and the decisions made 15-20 years ago are playing out now; A gaining share in NB and losing share in WB.

The only question is why won’t either invest in a clean sheet program to address the issue.

B clearly has the funds but as has been well stated by many participants the mom concept is very tricky. Why they don’t look at a ng NB is a really good question given that they are losing share year by year to the 32xx models.

For AB I think the situation is more clear; management is in flux and anemic cash flow prevent a new program.

As a result B will capture at least 80 and possibly 90% of the small to medium WB market over the next 10 years and A will capture 60-65% of the NB market.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:13 am

If the 797 has superior cost savings and can be built economically like the 787 then I don't see Boeing having any problem selling it. And final engine proposals are due next month. Boeing wouldn't be wasting RR and GE's time if they had no intention of building the new jet. Hopefully the 797 has the performance to operate out of airports like DCA and LGA where United has limited slots. It would a great aircraft for SFO/DEN-DCA and DEN-LGA. The only way for United to add seats to those markets is to increase the aircraft size. And if it's hot and high performance is good then I could see AA operating into South America. It would also be a good fit for PHL and CLT.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:22 am

This will have no impact on the 797.

seabosdca wrote:
Good luck. Attempts to adapt long-range widebodies to regional service without stretching them have not fared well. They remain too heavy.

Even stretches, such as the 773(non ER) haven't done well.

The A330/A340 widebodies are optimized for hours, not cycles. Structure would have to be added.

The only market I see is China.

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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:26 am

cosyr wrote:
I don't think that Boeing is scared of anything Airbus has to offer, but I do think they are (rightfully) scared that the MoM is too small a market to invest billions on a clean sheet aircraft.


:checkmark:

I see this as an effort to secure A330neo commitments from the Chinese and other Asian operators that already use the A330 regionally to carry heavy cargo. It's not compelling for any operator without major cargo needs but it's a reasonable effort to eat away at the business case for 797 by nibbling at the edges.[/quote]
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
this smells like desperation from airbus. no way a simple shrink or derate matches the efficiency of a clean sheet


The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.



still doesnt change the fact that if boeing have done thier jobs right, the 797 clean sheet will have economics that no existing plane can match.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:35 am

I don't think anyone is fooled into believeing that this will be a viable 'MoM' alternative, but it's going to cost Airbus peanuts to 'develop', so there's little risk to them even if they sell exactly naught.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:36 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
The A330ceo Regional did well in China -though probably at end of line pricing.

Word is that Asian airlines would prefer a MoM with better freight capacity than what Boeing may have in mind for the 797 to meet US needs, a requirement that the 330 can meet.

JAL will shortly be deploying A350s for domestic high frequency use.

So, who knows? Airbus may be able to chip away some market share at the top end of the MoM window with this development, as well as at the bottom end with the 321(X) LR. Strategically they do not need to beat the 797 technologically, only to weaken its business case.


I think the 'Asian carriers demand freight capability' card is being over-played. LCCs are now a major force in the market, and likely to be part of the customer base for a MoM, but are content with only 1-3 tonnes of freight on their A320s/737s.

As others have said, the A330(ceo) Regional really hasn't worked in the market, so Airbus is warming it up in the microwave for the A330neo. How the economics will go with a heavier - albeit more efficient - engine will be interesting to see, but I get the sense that it won't be compelling on short routes. But the biggest problem for Airbus is convincing airlines that it is worth dropping ~$120 million on a machine that is nowhere near as flexible as the A320neo family, which for most carries will be a license to print money.

Let's face it, the cost of floating an idea is nothing for Airbus, so putting it out there to see what traction it gets is easy to do. Doing the paper changes required for an A330neo Regional is also easy. Convincing airlines that they need it, that is the hard part.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:39 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
The A330ceo Regional did well in China -though probably at end of line pricing.

Word is that Asian airlines would prefer a MoM with better freight capacity than what Boeing may have in mind for the 797 to meet US needs, a requirement that the 330 can meet.

JAL will shortly be deploying A350s for domestic high frequency use.

So, who knows? Airbus may be able to chip away some market share at the top end of the MoM window with this development, as well as at the bottom end with the 321(X) LR. Strategically they do not need to beat the 797 technologically, only to weaken its business case.


I think the 'Asian carriers demand freight capability' card is being over-played. LCCs are now a major force in the market, and likely to be part of the customer base for a MoM, but are content with only 1-3 tonnes of freight on their A320s/737s.

As others have said, the A330(ceo) Regional really hasn't worked in the market, so Airbus is warming it up in the microwave for the A330neo. How the economics will go with a heavier - albeit more efficient - engine will be interesting to see, but I get the sense that it won't be compelling on short routes. But the biggest problem for Airbus is convincing airlines that it is worth dropping ~$120 million on a machine that is nowhere near as flexible as the A320neo family, which for most carries will be a license to print money.

Let's face it, the cost of floating an idea is nothing for Airbus, so putting it out there to see what traction it gets is easy to do. Doing the paper changes required for an A330neo Regional is also easy. Convincing airlines that they need it, that is the hard part.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:05 am

Wasn't it mentioned that the current A330ceo is more efficient than the Neo on routes below a certain distance? Curious to find out how that could be offset...
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:59 am

Because domestic widebodies have sold so well in the past 20 years...
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:21 am

I'm not sure how this is going to work, as the 787 looks to be cheaper to produce with its high production rate. With that and the better resale from more users and a more capable frame.... Should be cheaper to borrow money for too.

The A32x rewing has potential. I expect them to look into it after
A. 777x enters service and the folding wingtips prove or disprove themselves.
B. Brexit happens so they know if they need to move wing production or not. 60+ frames a year on the cheapest frame provides huge incentive to avoid extra costs from trade restrictions.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
this smells like desperation from airbus. no way a simple shrink or derate matches the efficiency of a clean sheet


The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.


I thought the A330CEO had an advantage over the A330NEO on shorter stage lengths. The reasoning revolved around the NEO having heavier engines that were optimised for cruze.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:35 am

I think all the “Airbus is getting desperate” noise because of the B797 is exagerrated. Airbus would be stupid if they don’t offer a Regional version. Boeing will do fine with the 797 when they can offer it for an attractive price. And Airbus will introduce an alternative in the future.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:47 am

I assume the A330-800neo is the one we're talking about here. Since it got the smallest capacity.

If they could get the range down to 5,500nm to 6,000nm. I could see it work quite well, especially for Asian Market and B767-300ER replacement up in North America with Delta, and maybe United, if we stretch the scenario.

Although I bet many airlines prefer A350-800 regional instead.

Besides, it seems like airlines prefer smaller widebody like B767-300ER and A330-200 to have shorter range and A330-300 with higher range. Hence why Airlines loved B787-9 soo much. The capacity and range just fits. While B767-300ER and it's smaller range created the perfect MoM.
Last edited by ewt340 on Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:52 am

Hasn't Airbus always offered paper derates of their aircraft? The "regional" label is nice way of marketing to news agencies and investors but it doesn't really change the economics of the aircraft itself.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:09 am

EBT wrote:

I think the 'Asian carriers demand freight capability' card is being over-played. LCCs are now a major force in the market, and likely to be part of the customer base for a MoM, but are content with only 1-3 tonnes of freight on their A320s/737s.

As others have said, the A330(ceo) Regional really hasn't worked in the market, so Airbus is warming it up in the microwave for the A330neo. How the economics will go with a heavier - albeit more efficient - engine will be interesting to see, but I get the sense that it won't be compelling on short routes. But the biggest problem for Airbus is convincing airlines that it is worth dropping ~$120 million on a machine that is nowhere near as flexible as the A320neo family, which for most carries will be a license to print money.

Let's face it, the cost of floating an idea is nothing for Airbus, so putting it out there to see what traction it gets is easy to do. Doing the paper changes required for an A330neo Regional is also easy. Convincing airlines that they need it, that is the hard part.


Take Flightradar24, filter for the A330 family and then look at East Asia. There are way more A330s in Asia than anywhere else and it seems that HKG is the A330 capital of the world.

Every time I take an A330 in Asia it is loaded with lots of cargo. And they are being replaced by 787 and A350, not narrow bodies. Cargo flights are becoming rare and everything goes into the bellies of wide-bodies.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:26 am

I feel that an airplane that could move around 300 people in the short hop market would sell well, but it takes a much lighter plane with a design focused on cycles. I recall there was a great plane called the A300-600 that was a bit smaller but did the commuter routes well and was a great freighter, in particular the parcel carriers found it to be good.

Doing a stretch to add 4 to 5 rows is a good way to have a shorter range plane without a big penalty of the structure weight - it substitutes payload for fuel.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:29 am

Cathay has like 70 regional wide bodies that need replacing apart from the extra they need for Growth

they just got their replacement order for A320's and narrow body route growth

but nether Boeing nor Airbus have a n upgraded widebody regional aircraft


same for JL and NH they need regional widebodies
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:30 am

DarthLobster wrote:
Because domestic widebodies have sold so well in the past 20 years...


Cathay has 70 aircraft mixed airbus and boeing
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
This will have no impact on the 797.

seabosdca wrote:
Good luck. Attempts to adapt long-range widebodies to regional service without stretching them have not fared well. They remain too heavy.

Even stretches, such as the 773(non ER) haven't done well.

The A330/A340 widebodies are optimized for hours, not cycles. Structure would have to be added.

The only market I see is China.

Lightsaber


Don't forget that the A330 was originally conceived as a medium-range aircraft, essentially a A300 replacement.
First customer was Air Inter, used domestically in France. Return to origins?
 
YIMBY
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:36 am

What is "Regional"?

For me it is sub-domestic, i.e. much less than 1 hour flights.

To be competitive on that, a paper derate is not sufficient. You need a lighter wing, lighter engines, lighter this and that, and major modifications for higher cycles. Talk about billions. Not impossible, but ..

Then the longer body might operate regional flights and the shorter body might have even mid-range. Just like original A300 and A310. Maybe you could even embark like in bus.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:54 am

Boeing released a mission profile for the 787 not so long ago. I was surprised that many routes the 787 is used on are rather short. It is true that the 787 and the A330 are rarely used for domestic flights in the US or for intra Europe. But for the rest of the world this might work
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:24 pm

In one of the concurrent neo threads there is mention of the 251T neo requiring strengthening, the additional weight for which will be compensated by further weight reduction elsewhere.

That opens the possibility that the Regional could be built with the weight reduction but not the strengthening. The disadvantage would be that it could not later be uprated to the full 251T.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:15 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
This is what Delta will order to replace their 767 fleet.


Does you expect this A330NEO Regional to have legitimate, bi-directional 5,500sm range? If not it won't replace 763 nor 764ERs.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:39 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
This is what Delta will order to replace their 767 fleet.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Does you expect this A330NEO Regional to have legitimate, bi-directional 5,500sm range? If not it won't replace 763 nor 764ERs.


DL has "full MTOW" A330-900neos to replace the 767s doing those missions.

The A330-900neo Regional can handle the shorter (say 3500sm / 3000nm) missions that certainly some of the 767 fleet is currently doing.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:40 pm

I don’t see DL having much interest in a regional variant of the A330. They like flexibility and optimization. The younger 767s can be used on the shorter routes until time comes for a proper replacement.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:51 pm

ratp101 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This will have no impact on the 797.

seabosdca wrote:
Good luck. Attempts to adapt long-range widebodies to regional service without stretching them have not fared well. They remain too heavy.

Even stretches, such as the 773(non ER) haven't done well.

The A330/A340 widebodies are optimized for hours, not cycles. Structure would have to be added.

The only market I see is China.

Lightsaber


Don't forget that the A330 was originally conceived as a medium-range aircraft, essentially a A300 replacement.
First customer was Air Inter, used domestically in France. Return to origins?

How a plane is optimized changes with technology and PIPs. Once the NEO, MAX, and A220 came out in volume, there is new competition. The A321 LR takes narrowbody economics further.

The 797 intentionally forfeits cargo for better passenger economics. So the regional A330 will only compete well on high cargo routes. Since why I think China.

The USA and Europe have such awesome ground cargo and express freight, I cannot remember the last time we didn't either higher a truck or FedEx/UPS/DHL.

Although for expensive stuff, either we or our customers do custom (e.g., charter a solo flight).

Lightsaber
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Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If the 797 has superior cost savings and can be built economically like the 787 then I don't see Boeing having any problem selling it. And final engine proposals are due next month. Boeing wouldn't be wasting RR and GE's time if they had no intention of building the new jet. Hopefully the 797 has the performance to operate out of airports like DCA and LGA where United has limited slots. It would a great aircraft for SFO/DEN-DCA and DEN-LGA. The only way for United to add seats to those markets is to increase the aircraft size. And if it's hot and high performance is good then I could see AA operating into South America. It would also be a good fit for PHL and CLT.


Over at the A380 threads many members point out that a MOM is a way to grow the market from below, while at the top end it makes more sense to add B777X instead of A380's to grow.
And yet when we look at the order books, Airbus is leading in all segments except B787 vs A330neo, the closest segment there is to the proposed MOM...

So the question is, why would airlines grow the feed size with bigger MOM aircraft that also burn more fuel and cost more, rather than add frequencies with narrowbodies available today?
Why grow 2 x A321 flights into 2 x B797 flights instead of 3 x A321 flights or even 4 x A220 flights?

Sometimes it make sense to do this to partly grow the feeding to a long haul bank at slot-restricted airports where even a A321 is too little aircraft, but even so, most airlines are still only in the process of partially growing from the B738 and A320 size to the Max10 and A321neo size while the B738 and A320 remain the size reference. Many are also still only growing from the B737-700/A320 size.
So this argument may make sense at the next round of narrowbody replacements but right now?

As for the mid-haul range market around 3000-4000 NM, there is a market where narrowbodies make sense in some cases and widebodies in others. Whether there is enough appeal in an aircraft that can do it all and better, remains to be seen.

One also must not forget the sales that will be cannibalized from the B737-10 and B787 families. If the B797 would only generate new demand or compete against Airbus aircraft, it would be perfect, but we don't live in a perfect world.

The A330neo regional can make sense at lower MTOW.

JL ordered the A359 regional, NH is putting B787's on the domestic services.

I think that there is a market that Airbus needs to address better. The B777 non-ER replacement market, the B787-10 market. I think that a A330-1000 simple stretch (A345 fuselage) and a A330-1100 double stretch (A346 fuselage) could be great additions, especially for Asian and TATL carriers that need the capacity but not the range of the A350.
Who wouldn't want to have a B777-300 with the economics of a B787, even if only capable of 4000 NM?
 
StTim
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:05 pm

travelhound wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
this smells like desperation from airbus. no way a simple shrink or derate matches the efficiency of a clean sheet


The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.


I thought the A330CEO had an advantage over the A330NEO on shorter stage lengths. The reasoning revolved around the NEO having heavier engines that were optimised for cruze.


It certainly was - but I think with flight testing that advantage for the CEO shrunk dramatically. Of course I can no longer find where that update came from. My brain is obviously not optimised for google search terms!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8548
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:37 pm

StTim wrote:
travelhound wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.


I thought the A330CEO had an advantage over the A330NEO on shorter stage lengths. The reasoning revolved around the NEO having heavier engines that were optimised for cruze.


It certainly was - but I think with flight testing that advantage for the CEO shrunk dramatically. Of course I can no longer find where that update came from. My brain is obviously not optimised for google search terms!


There were a few changes from the first estimate.

- the weight increase was less than first expected.
- the performance during flight test better than expected and that in the very important part for shorter haul operations, fuel burn while climbing.

The result can well be, that there is no distance, where the ceo beats out the neo.
 
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seabosdca
Posts: 6518
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:04 pm

StTim wrote:
It certainly was - but I think with flight testing that advantage for the CEO shrunk dramatically. Of course I can no longer find where that update came from. My brain is obviously not optimised for google search terms!


If true, then the decision to market derated A330neos as replacements for existing regional A330ceos (and for growth in Asian regional markets) certainly makes more sense.
 
c933103
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:37 pm

1. Wasn't the reason why Airbus released 333 regional was because at regional stage length 333 would be better than 339? Have the numbers changed?
2. How much range will this regional aircraft have? Given the range of 330neo and the range of some other Airbus regional aircrafts like that "A350 regional" thing, will it be another "regional aircraft capable of flying long haul"?
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:32 pm

c933103 wrote:
1. Wasn't the reason why Airbus released 333 regional was because at regional stage length 333 would be better than 339? Have the numbers changed?
2. How much range will this regional aircraft have? Given the range of 330neo and the range of some other Airbus regional aircrafts like that "A350 regional" thing, will it be another "regional aircraft capable of flying long haul"?


The A330-300 regional was on offer before the A330neo was offered. All regional versions at Airbus are derated frames. Lower MTOW, derated engines and provisions for higher cycle numbers, All those frames can be rated back for long haul during their lifetime.
And yes the numbers have changed, the A330neo came out lighter and better performing than anticipated.
 
SelseyBill
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:38 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:17 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
this smells like desperation from airbus. no way a simple shrink or derate matches the efficiency of a clean sheet


The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.



still doesnt change the fact that if boeing have done thier jobs right, the 797 clean sheet will have economics that no existing plane can match.


It may have the economics, but will it have the price ?

Boeing tried to 'strangle the A330NEO at birth'; by kicking the 787 financial can down the road into Neverland, and I suspect that financially, Boeing will not want another 787 with 797 financing; nor probably could it afford it.

Airbus could clearly try to do pricing wise with the 797, what Boeing tried to do with the 330NEO, and make the mature A321NEO and A330NEO-R so comparatively cheap they couldn't be ignored...... and I suspect that is why B have had such a hard time getting the 797 business case closed..........

Interesting times indeed......
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus considering A330NEO Regional

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:15 am

SelseyBill wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The A330NEO is said to have an advantage on shorter stage length. So why not? This isn't a shrink, that would be a foolish and expensive step. Derating engines should be very straight forward.



still doesnt change the fact that if boeing have done thier jobs right, the 797 clean sheet will have economics that no existing plane can match.


It may have the economics, but will it have the price ?

Boeing tried to 'strangle the A330NEO at birth'; by kicking the 787 financial can down the road into Neverland, and I suspect that financially, Boeing will not want another 787 with 797 financing; nor probably could it afford it.

Airbus could clearly try to do pricing wise with the 797, what Boeing tried to do with the 330NEO, and make the mature A321NEO and A330NEO-R so comparatively cheap they couldn't be ignored...... and I suspect that is why B have had such a hard time getting the 797 business case closed..........

Interesting times indeed......

Interesting times indeed. I believe Boeing can reduce the price of the 797 if they have enough volume.

Every doubling of production cuts costs per unit 13% in this era of automation. To squeeze out either the 787 or 797, Airbus needs volume.

Last I looked, the 787 generates $11 million in cash each delivery. I've seen estimates that 2019 deliveries will be $3 to $4 million cheaper.

All indications are the 797 business case is based on the assumption of high volume sales (over a hundred per year). I've yet to see a plan to return the A330NEO to such volumes. Is there one? Yes, this does imply the 797 only launches if there is a large initial order backlog.

Interesting times indeed. For the 797 launch will be binary: Huge or not launched. Market changing or SonicCruiser2. There will be no grace period to volume sales.

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