Spotter1967
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*Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:18 pm

French newspaper Le Figaro tonight reported that the CEO of Air France decided to terminate Joon.
Joon commenced operations on 1 December 2017 and the target audience was young people. Cost structure of Joon was just a bit cheaper than of parent Air France.
It seems the new CEO of AF/KLM Ben Smith just did not like the idea of former CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac who took the initiative for Joon.
Competitors of Joon on longhaul flights from Paris like Level and Norwegian operate cheaper.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2018/11 ... e-joon.php
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
rufusmi
Posts: 195
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:22 pm

That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:24 pm

Behind a paywall, but I get the point: Like Song and Ted, the airline-within-an-airline-without-any-advantages is going away.

I guess this means all the routes being flown exclusively by Joon will revert back to AF?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:24 pm

rufusmi wrote:
That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.


Joon is an utterly silly name. May as well have called themselves another 4 letter word, like Dumb!

Good to see the ex-AC guy putting his stamp on the place.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:25 pm

The new CEO is acting quickly.
 
alan3
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:49 pm

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:52 pm

Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".
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737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
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ME720
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:54 pm

they can expand TRANSAVIA.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:57 pm

ME720 wrote:
they can expand TRANSAVIA.


Isn't Transavia limited in size by mainline scope clauses?
 
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GCT64
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:59 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.


New ex-AC boss, so perhaps we will see "Air France Bleu" or "Air France Blanc" rather than "Joon".
Flown in: A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..55 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
a350lover
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Wow. That was quick. What's the future for the new employees that had been hired for this Joon venture? Are they going to be fold back to the Air France structure?
 
alan3
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:03 pm

Anyone taking bets on Level?
 
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leleko747
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:05 pm

Any news on the current routes flown exclusively by Joon? They started flying to my city, Fortaleza (Brazil), in May.
Using the A340-300, currently 3x weekly. Air France mainline might pick up the route?
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
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brindabella
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:05 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.


Long story but the genesis of Jetstar goes way back and means it started from outside QF and with a much lower historical cost-base.
Don't know if that is still true however - but I suspect so.

cheers
Billy
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:06 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".


Correction, Air France used to be one of the great airline brands. I got the feeling the numerous strikes caused quite some damage to a once strong brand that now isn't that strong anymore. People are always cautious to book with Air France, you never know if they might strike.

Air France is a very tough airline to manage since any change that isn't approved by the staff will no doubt lead to strikes. And still such changes need to be made in order to keep competitive.

I agree Joon was a stupid name, but the idea behind it wasn't bad. Only it didn't turn out as good as they hoped for. No doubt the management was hoping for more cost savings, but that didn't turn out to be possible. They had to make concessions to the staff and those concessions cost them a lot of money.
 
Someone83
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:07 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.


The key, especially regarding Jetstar, is that it is more than just an airline within an airline
 
KLDC10
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:16 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Correction, Air France used to be one of the great airline brands. I got the feeling the numerous strikes caused quite some damage to a once strong brand that now isn't that strong anymore. People are always cautious to book with Air France, you never know if they might strike.


Call me sentimental, but I do have a bit of a soft spot for Air France, since it's the first airline I ever flew with. I do still consider the brand to be very strong - damaged, yes, but still strong. The focus now should be returning the brand to the position it deserves and not detracting from it by having a bunch of other brands flying around alongside it. If we're being honest, it isn't really necessary for the 'Hop!' brand to exist either - they should just fly under the Air France brand.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Air France is a very tough airline to manage since any change that isn't approved by the staff will no doubt lead to strikes. And still such changes need to be made in order to keep competitive.


Agreed.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I agree Joon was a stupid name, but the idea behind it wasn't bad. Only it didn't turn out as good as they hoped for. No doubt the management was hoping for more cost savings, but that didn't turn out to be possible. They had to make concessions to the staff and those concessions cost them a lot of money.


The reason I consider the idea daft is because it was the typical "tinker around the edges" approach. The previous management team was unable to make the necessary changes at Air France proper, so pinned their hopes on Joon, only for it too to be hobbled and end up providing negligible cost savings. Pitching the whole endeavor at milennials was hardly a masterstroke either - they probably constitute the least loyal and most unpredictable segment of the market.
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
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a350lover
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:18 pm

alan3 wrote:
Anyone taking bets on Level?


I don't remember Air France ever talking very excited about the Joon project. LEVEL is the war horse of IAG now. At least, that's how it felt when they last month gathered together for presenting results and projects for each of the IAG's airlines.
Last edited by a350lover on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:18 pm

Someone83 wrote:
The key, especially regarding Jetstar, is that it is more than just an airline within an airline


I agree. When comparing Qantas to Air France-KLM JetStar should be compared to Transavia. They may have the same owner, but other than that they got nothing in common.
 
peanuts
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:20 pm

Heads should roll. Supposedly smart peeps in c suites no idea what they are doing...it's getting tiresome.
 
M564038
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:24 pm

I was going to post about this. Air France has been out of my country since Joon started, but they have been making arrangements to take over for a few weeks now, and making no point of trying to keep it secret.
Last edited by M564038 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airplane
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm

They were supposed to start flying to Quito (UIO) next year. I wonder if AF will pick it up or just cancel.

JP
Last edited by airplane on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cathay747
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm

rufusmi wrote:
That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.


Exactly. Separate fleet with separate brand and as already said by many, a STUPID name...and for what? Let's face it...cost-savings and Air France in the same sentence is an oxy-moron!
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:33 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.


Funny that to two successful examples both operate in very similar markets too, huge countries, vast distances, small populations relative to size.

In regards to Rouge, unlike many airlines-within-airlines, Air Canada branding is still very apparent on Rouge, it's even part of the name.
 
pasu129
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:34 pm

Didn't Joon just launched their new "Cosy Joon"?

Image

Image

Image

source:TheDesignAir.net
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WayexTDI
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:39 pm

Spotter1967 wrote:
French newspaper Le Figaro tonight reported that the CEO of Air France decided to terminate Joon.
Joon commenced operations on 1 December 2017 and the target audience was young people. Cost structure of Joon was just a bit cheaper than of parent Air France.
It seems the new CEO of AF/KLM Ben Smith just did not like the idea of former CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac who took the initiative for Joon.
Competitors of Joon on longhaul flights from Paris like Level and Norwegian operate cheaper.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2018/11 ... e-joon.php

You might be correct about Joon, but the article (at least the part not behind a paywall) is not 100% affirmative about the demise of Joon:
- title: Air France ready to stop the Joon venture. Meaning: Air France is seriously thinking about stopping Joon;
- 2nd paragraph: According to our sources, Joon's closing is being worked on. But the decision has yet to be brought up to the board of directors.. Meaning: no official decision has been made... yet.
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:39 pm

Interesting. With Air France-KLM A350s expected to head to Joon, or at least part of them, what can we expect to see with those frames? Straight to AFor KLM or deferred?
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:40 pm

Surprising how only the middle section of the plane seems to be occupied on those photos. The seats on the other side of the aisle near the windows are all empty, as is the row in front of them. Obviously this is not during a real flight, those people were only put there for the photo. Otherwise they'd be flying really empty.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:43 pm

In my few this is for the best, just focus on KLM and AF. And kill of Transavia and Joon. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:43 pm

In my few this is for the best, just focus on KLM and AF. And kill of Transavia and Joon. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.
 
a350lover
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:48 pm

pasu129 wrote:
Didn't Joon just launched their new "Cosy Joon"?

Image

Image

Image

source:TheDesignAir.net


Original idea comes from Air New Zealand.

Is just me or to fly Joon you wouldn’t regret to be colour blinded? Air France cabins are elegant, fresh and classy. This is just like a secondary-school project done with Paint.
Last edited by a350lover on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:49 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.


The key with Jetstar at least is it is totally independent of Qantas Airways, being a totally separate airline within the Qantas Group. Jetstar is more comparable to Vueling than Joon or Song/Ted.

Jetstar has its own CEO, and to accentuate its management and operational independence is deliberately headquartered in Melbourne. Qantas Group (and Qantas Airways) are headquartered in Sydney.

Joon was a weird idea from the start. The concept of a brand designed to appeal to 'millenials' is the sort of thing a marketing consultant was paid far too much money to do. Had Joon been operationally independent to focus on routes that might appeal to a younger demographic then it might have made some sense, but in reality Joon was simply a vehicle to outsource mainline flying on a seemingly random assortment of routes that had no real relevance to the demographic it claimed to be targeting. It was an outsourcing and cost reduction exercise and nothing more, and the vast majority of passengers probably had no idea that they were flying Joon and not Air France until they arrived at the airport.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
a350lover
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:53 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:

Jetstar has its own CEO, and to accentuate its management and operational independence is deliberately headquartered in Melbourne. Qantas Group (and Qantas Airways) are headquartered in Sydney.



Very much like Vueling against Iberia in MAD. Headquartered in BCN, 100% independent. Probably Vueling isn’t yet as successful as Jetstar though.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:56 pm

When does this take effect?
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M564038
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:05 pm

According to the article it hasn’t even been through the board yet, but that surely must be a formality, because other arrangements are in place or being put in place all over allready.

readytotaxi wrote:
When does this take effect?
 
Luftymatt
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:12 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".

Exactly, this in a nut shell.
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eicvd
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:45 pm

IWMBH wrote:
In my few this is for the best, just focus on KLM and AF. And kill of Transavia and Joon. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.

No chance they’ll kill HV, quite a successful brand. In another thread it’s rumoured they’ll merge their regional arm HOP! With Transavia
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:01 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Jetstar and AC Rouge actually have separate AOCs from their parents (making them separate companies) and thus lower cost structures than their parent companies.

With Air France/KLM, Transavia is also a separate company, and was actually acquired by KLM when it was sold by Nedlloyd. The HOP! airlines are also under separate AOCs.

As for Lufthansa, they have a whole heap of AOCs: Lufthansa, LH CityLine, LH Cargo, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Eurowings Europe, Austrian, Swiss, Air Dolomiti, and Edelweiss. All are subsidiary airlines.
 
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LH748
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:51 pm

Oh no, I had not yet tried out this flying hipster lounge :lol:
Too bad
Goodbye stupid airline with a stupid name and a stupid concept :wave:
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:53 pm

Not a smart guy. In my opinion Air France steadily gets worse and worse. Though I am aware that for many this is a positive development.

In my mind all I can see is that he is the guy who somehow made the "smart decision" to return leased A380s.
To me, it will always be:
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multimark
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:45 am

Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:02 am

multimark wrote:
Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.


I’d argue just the opposite, actually. AC folks probably understand better than just about anyone that you need a separate certificate and the attendant lower costs to make it work.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
A350OZ
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:47 am

multimark wrote:
Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.


I would argue that because he knows how AC made Rouge work he is stopping Joon, as it is nothing else than a purple facade and a stupid name, with the whole backend still being AF with its high cost base and other issues. Right move.
 
binayak
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 am

Now what will happen to the routes with Joon service instead of AF?
BOM for example got Joon last year. Will it be back to mainline AF?
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:13 am

multimark wrote:
Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.

....which makes him probably one of the most qualified people to arrive at that conclusion.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LH658
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:15 am

Thank God, Joon was just a utter mess in my opinion.
 
EChid
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:37 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Not a smart guy. In my opinion Air France steadily gets worse and worse. Though I am aware that for many this is a positive development.

In my mind all I can see is that he is the guy who somehow made the "smart decision" to return leased A380s.

Heh. Actually many would argue that that move was complete validation for him. I love the A380, but returning them after the lease is up is the right move for AF. The aircraft didn't work for them, and they don't need as many as they have. Don't bring your own favouritism for a particular plane as proof of general ineptitude.

More generally, this thread title is incorrect. All sources I've seen indicate that Air France is considering terminating Joon, not decided upon it.

Several others have already made all of the salient points on why Joon was never a Jetstar/Rouge-level concept or execution, and why that's led to their potential demise.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
DTWorld
Posts: 176
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:40 am

It makes me wonder what will happen with their 343s. Will they revert back to AF, or will they be parked altogether?
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1113
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:42 am

Sill name, stupid product and unnecessary to have launched in the first place. I mean really? An airline within an airline to service millennials? AF is definitely making some bold moves to right the ship. Keep it coming.
 
EChid
Posts: 535
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:48 am

DTWorld wrote:
It makes me wonder what will happen with their 343s. Will they revert back to AF, or will they be parked altogether?

Well, they are all between 19 and 21 years of age. That seems a little young to retire, but not worth converting back. AF still operates plenty of (worse) angled flat seats in their mainline, so probably best use would be sticking them on some typically tourist-heavy routes where your premium buyers won't get mad and operating them as is (perhaps with an AF repaint) until retirement.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J

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