French newspaper Le Figaro tonight reported that the CEO of Air France decided to terminate Joon.
Joon commenced operations on 1 December 2017 and the target audience was young people. Cost structure of Joon was just a bit cheaper than of parent Air France.
It seems the new CEO of AF/KLM Ben Smith just did not like the idea of former CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac who took the initiative for Joon.
Competitors of Joon on longhaul flights from Paris like Level and Norwegian operate cheaper.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2018/11 ... e-joon.php

That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.

Behind a paywall, but I get the point: Like Song and Ted, the airline-within-an-airline-without-any-advantages is going away.

I guess this means all the routes being flown exclusively by Joon will revert back to AF?

rufusmi wrote:

That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.

Joon is an utterly silly name. May as well have called themselves another 4 letter word, like Dumb!

Good to see the ex-AC guy putting his stamp on the place.

The new CEO is acting quickly.

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".

they can expand TRANSAVIA.

ME720 wrote:

they can expand TRANSAVIA.

Isn't Transavia limited in size by mainline scope clauses?

alan3 wrote:

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

New ex-AC boss, so perhaps we will see "Air France Bleu" or "Air France Blanc" rather than "Joon".

Wow. That was quick. What's the future for the new employees that had been hired for this Joon venture? Are they going to be fold back to the Air France structure?

Anyone taking bets on Level?

Any news on the current routes flown exclusively by Joon? They started flying to my city, Fortaleza (Brazil), in May.
Using the A340-300, currently 3x weekly. Air France mainline might pick up the route?

alan3 wrote:

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Long story but the genesis of Jetstar goes way back and means it started from outside QF and with a much lower historical cost-base.
Don't know if that is still true however - but I suspect so.

cheers

KLDC10 wrote:

Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".

Correction, Air France used to be one of the great airline brands. I got the feeling the numerous strikes caused quite some damage to a once strong brand that now isn't that strong anymore. People are always cautious to book with Air France, you never know if they might strike.

Air France is a very tough airline to manage since any change that isn't approved by the staff will no doubt lead to strikes. And still such changes need to be made in order to keep competitive.

I agree Joon was a stupid name, but the idea behind it wasn't bad. Only it didn't turn out as good as they hoped for. No doubt the management was hoping for more cost savings, but that didn't turn out to be possible. They had to make concessions to the staff and those concessions cost them a lot of money.

alan3 wrote:

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

The key, especially regarding Jetstar, is that it is more than just an airline within an airline

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Correction, Air France used to be one of the great airline brands. I got the feeling the numerous strikes caused quite some damage to a once strong brand that now isn't that strong anymore. People are always cautious to book with Air France, you never know if they might strike.

Call me sentimental, but I do have a bit of a soft spot for Air France, since it's the first airline I ever flew with. I do still consider the brand to be very strong - damaged, yes, but still strong. The focus now should be returning the brand to the position it deserves and not detracting from it by having a bunch of other brands flying around alongside it. If we're being honest, it isn't really necessary for the 'Hop!' brand to exist either - they should just fly under the Air France brand.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Air France is a very tough airline to manage since any change that isn't approved by the staff will no doubt lead to strikes. And still such changes need to be made in order to keep competitive.

Agreed.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

I agree Joon was a stupid name, but the idea behind it wasn't bad. Only it didn't turn out as good as they hoped for. No doubt the management was hoping for more cost savings, but that didn't turn out to be possible. They had to make concessions to the staff and those concessions cost them a lot of money.

The reason I consider the idea daft is because it was the typical "tinker around the edges" approach. The previous management team was unable to make the necessary changes at Air France proper, so pinned their hopes on Joon, only for it too to be hobbled and end up providing negligible cost savings. Pitching the whole endeavor at milennials was hardly a masterstroke either - they probably constitute the least loyal and most unpredictable segment of the market.

alan3 wrote:

Anyone taking bets on Level?

I don't remember Air France ever talking very excited about the Joon project. LEVEL is the war horse of IAG now. At least, that's how it felt when they last month gathered together for presenting results and projects for each of the IAG's airlines.

Someone83 wrote:

The key, especially regarding Jetstar, is that it is more than just an airline within an airline

I agree. When comparing Qantas to Air France-KLM JetStar should be compared to Transavia. They may have the same owner, but other than that they got nothing in common.

Heads should roll. Supposedly smart peeps in c suites no idea what they are doing...it's getting tiresome.

I was going to post about this. Air France has been out of my country since Joon started, but they have been making arrangements to take over for a few weeks now, and making no point of trying to keep it secret.

They were supposed to start flying to Quito (UIO) next year. I wonder if AF will pick it up or just cancel.

JP

rufusmi wrote:

That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.

Exactly. Separate fleet with separate brand and as already said by many, a STUPID name...and for what? Let's face it...cost-savings and Air France in the same sentence is an oxy-moron!

alan3 wrote:

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Funny that to two successful examples both operate in very similar markets too, huge countries, vast distances, small populations relative to size.

In regards to Rouge, unlike many airlines-within-airlines, Air Canada branding is still very apparent on Rouge, it's even part of the name.

Didn't Joon just launched their new "Cosy Joon"?







source:TheDesignAir.net

Spotter1967 wrote:

French newspaper Le Figaro tonight reported that the CEO of Air France decided to terminate Joon.
Joon commenced operations on 1 December 2017 and the target audience was young people. Cost structure of Joon was just a bit cheaper than of parent Air France.
It seems the new CEO of AF/KLM Ben Smith just did not like the idea of former CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac who took the initiative for Joon.
Competitors of Joon on longhaul flights from Paris like Level and Norwegian operate cheaper.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2018/11 ... e-joon.php

You might be correct about Joon, but the article (at least the part not behind a paywall) is not 100% affirmative about the demise of Joon:
- title: Air France ready to stop the Joon venture. Meaning: Air France is seriously thinking about stopping Joon;
- 2nd paragraph: According to our sources, Joon's closing is being worked on. But the decision has yet to be brought up to the board of directors.. Meaning: no official decision has been made... yet.

Interesting. With Air France-KLM A350s expected to head to Joon, or at least part of them, what can we expect to see with those frames? Straight to AFor KLM or deferred?

Surprising how only the middle section of the plane seems to be occupied on those photos. The seats on the other side of the aisle near the windows are all empty, as is the row in front of them. Obviously this is not during a real flight, those people were only put there for the photo. Otherwise they'd be flying really empty.

In my few this is for the best, just focus on KLM and AF. And kill of Transavia and Joon. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.

In my few this is for the best, just focus on KLM and AF. And kill of Transavia and Joon. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.

pasu129 wrote:

Didn't Joon just launched their new "Cosy Joon"?







source:TheDesignAir.net

Original idea comes from Air New Zealand.

Is just me or to fly Joon you wouldn’t regret to be colour blinded? Air France cabins are elegant, fresh and classy. This is just like a secondary-school project done with Paint.

alan3 wrote:

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

The key with Jetstar at least is it is totally independent of Qantas Airways, being a totally separate airline within the Qantas Group. Jetstar is more comparable to Vueling than Joon or Song/Ted.

Jetstar has its own CEO, and to accentuate its management and operational independence is deliberately headquartered in Melbourne. Qantas Group (and Qantas Airways) are headquartered in Sydney.

Joon was a weird idea from the start. The concept of a brand designed to appeal to 'millenials' is the sort of thing a marketing consultant was paid far too much money to do. Had Joon been operationally independent to focus on routes that might appeal to a younger demographic then it might have made some sense, but in reality Joon was simply a vehicle to outsource mainline flying on a seemingly random assortment of routes that had no real relevance to the demographic it claimed to be targeting. It was an outsourcing and cost reduction exercise and nothing more, and the vast majority of passengers probably had no idea that they were flying Joon and not Air France until they arrived at the airport.

RyanairGuru wrote:

Jetstar has its own CEO, and to accentuate its management and operational independence is deliberately headquartered in Melbourne. Qantas Group (and Qantas Airways) are headquartered in Sydney.

Very much like Vueling against Iberia in MAD. Headquartered in BCN, 100% independent. Probably Vueling isn’t yet as successful as Jetstar though.

When does this take effect?

According to the article it hasn’t even been through the board yet, but that surely must be a formality, because other arrangements are in place or being put in place all over allready.

readytotaxi wrote:

When does this take effect?

KLDC10 wrote:

Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".

Exactly, this in a nut shell.

IWMBH wrote:

In my few this is for the best, just focus on KLM and AF. And kill of Transavia and Joon. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.

No chance they’ll kill HV, quite a successful brand. In another thread it’s rumoured they’ll merge their regional arm HOP! With Transavia

alan3 wrote:

I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Jetstar and AC Rouge actually have separate AOCs from their parents (making them separate companies) and thus lower cost structures than their parent companies.

With Air France/KLM, Transavia is also a separate company, and was actually acquired by KLM when it was sold by Nedlloyd. The HOP! airlines are also under separate AOCs.

As for Lufthansa, they have a whole heap of AOCs: Lufthansa, LH CityLine, LH Cargo, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Eurowings Europe, Austrian, Swiss, Air Dolomiti, and Edelweiss. All are subsidiary airlines.

Oh no, I had not yet tried out this flying hipster lounge
Too bad
Goodbye stupid airline with a stupid name and a stupid concept

Not a smart guy. In my opinion Air France steadily gets worse and worse. Though I am aware that for many this is a positive development.

In my mind all I can see is that he is the guy who somehow made the "smart decision" to return leased A380s.

Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.

multimark wrote:

Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.

I’d argue just the opposite, actually. AC folks probably understand better than just about anyone that you need a separate certificate and the attendant lower costs to make it work.

multimark wrote:

Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.

I would argue that because he knows how AC made Rouge work he is stopping Joon, as it is nothing else than a purple facade and a stupid name, with the whole backend still being AF with its high cost base and other issues. Right move.

Now what will happen to the routes with Joon service instead of AF?
BOM for example got Joon last year. Will it be back to mainline AF?

multimark wrote:

Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.

....which makes him probably one of the most qualified people to arrive at that conclusion.

Thank God, Joon was just a utter mess in my opinion.

FlightLevel360 wrote:

Not a smart guy. In my opinion Air France steadily gets worse and worse. Though I am aware that for many this is a positive development.

In my mind all I can see is that he is the guy who somehow made the "smart decision" to return leased A380s.

Heh. Actually many would argue that that move was complete validation for him. I love the A380, but returning them after the lease is up is the right move for AF. The aircraft didn't work for them, and they don't need as many as they have. Don't bring your own favouritism for a particular plane as proof of general ineptitude.

More generally, this thread title is incorrect. All sources I've seen indicate that Air France is considering terminating Joon, not decided upon it.

Several others have already made all of the salient points on why Joon was never a Jetstar/Rouge-level concept or execution, and why that's led to their potential demise.

It makes me wonder what will happen with their 343s. Will they revert back to AF, or will they be parked altogether?

Sill name, stupid product and unnecessary to have launched in the first place. I mean really? An airline within an airline to service millennials? AF is definitely making some bold moves to right the ship. Keep it coming.

DTWorld wrote:

It makes me wonder what will happen with their 343s. Will they revert back to AF, or will they be parked altogether?

Well, they are all between 19 and 21 years of age. That seems a little young to retire, but not worth converting back. AF still operates plenty of (worse) angled flat seats in their mainline, so probably best use would be sticking them on some typically tourist-heavy routes where your premium buyers won't get mad and operating them as is (perhaps with an AF repaint) until retirement.