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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:24 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
In my mind all I can see is that he is the guy who somehow made the "smart decision" to return leased A380s.

Bluntly put: if you see retiring something that's (for Air France) a high-risk low-reward oddball, as a bad thing.... then you aren't exactly on firm ground to be questioning the judgment of anyone else.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:44 am

EChid wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
Not a smart guy. In my opinion Air France steadily gets worse and worse. Though I am aware that for many this is a positive development.

In my mind all I can see is that he is the guy who somehow made the "smart decision" to return leased A380s.

Heh. Actually many would argue that that move was complete validation for him. I love the A380, but returning them after the lease is up is the right move for AF. The aircraft didn't work for them, and they don't need as many as they have. Don't bring your own favouritism for a particular plane as proof of general ineptitude.

More generally, this thread title is incorrect. All sources I've seen indicate that Air France is considering terminating Joon, not decided upon it.

Several others have already made all of the salient points on why Joon was never a Jetstar/Rouge-level concept or execution, and why that's led to their potential demise.


Are they not doing well financially? If not then I don't see any reason to begin cutbacks.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
F9Fan
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:29 am

Dominion301 wrote:
rufusmi wrote:
That didn't take long. But we all knew it wasn't going to work from the start. There was no cost savings. It was essentially Air France trying to paint their brand as fresh and hip. Doesn't make sense to have a whole separate fleet for that.


Joon is an utterly silly name. May as well have called themselves another 4 letter word, like Dumb!

Good to see the ex-AC guy putting his stamp on the place.

Joon was meant to be a play on the word "jeune", which is French for "young.". Yeah, it was definitely une idée stupide.
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:16 am

‘Joon’ is a rare Korean family name. This was my initial thought when Air France launched this concept. The JOON + HOP! banners should disappear, in my opinion.

The company should at least revive the ‘Air France Europe’ or ‘Air France Express’ titles as it will minimize the cost of having to rebrand and repaint everything in the event “JOON 2.0” comes and goes... again.
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
smi0006
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:42 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Jetstar and AC Rouge actually have separate AOCs from their parents (making them separate companies) and thus lower cost structures than their parent companies.

With Air France/KLM, Transavia is also a separate company, and was actually acquired by KLM when it was sold by Nedlloyd. The HOP! airlines are also under separate AOCs.

As for Lufthansa, they have a whole heap of AOCs: Lufthansa, LH CityLine, LH Cargo, Brussels Airlines, Eurowings, Eurowings Europe, Austrian, Swiss, Air Dolomiti, and Edelweiss. All are subsidiary airlines.


JQ also had a completly desperate shorthaul fleet of 320s vs QF 738 as a way to ensure collective agreements could be separated. JQ no longer employees their own cabin crew 90% are contractors. For long haul they also have offshore crew bases - every element is separated to ensure a lower cost model and if anything put compete and internally apply pressure at the industrial releations level on the QF cost base. For it to work, overlap must be minimal!!
 
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Slash787
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:18 am

This whole Joon thing was a stupid idea since the beginning. But well at least they refurbished and put some good interiors, I was supposed to fly on a Joon A340 but at the end moment the aircraft was changed to the AF A330 and it was awful, the small tv screens were not working, some seats dint even have them, some of the seats were torn, it was a uncomfortable 9 hour experience.

So it would be better they either refurbish their A330's or just retire them.
 
avier
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:25 am

What is the cost now having to rebrand Joon back to Air France in terms of re-painting, seating, etc. Considering they just spent on having it converted to Joon not too long back.

And how does this affect their balance sheet? I'm sure they will take a hit in this to-fro branding exersice.

Not a very wise airline considering they already struggling.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:32 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Surprising how only the middle section of the plane seems to be occupied on those photos. The seats on the other side of the aisle near the windows are all empty, as is the row in front of them. Obviously this is not during a real flight, those people were only put there for the photo. Otherwise they'd be flying really empty.


And no seat belts fastened. Bad example. Maybe show how to sleep when you are stuck in an airport.

P.S. Wasn't the whole purpose of Joon etc to fight the unions?
 
c933103
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:59 am

woah not even a year
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:15 am

peanuts wrote:
Heads should roll. Supposedly smart peeps in c suites no idea what they are doing...it's getting tiresome.


Having worked in France, I think this also has to do with the way French management works. Major French companies are extraordinarily narrow minded and attached to some very strict rules (e.g. they would hire people from certain universities, that worked previously in certain companies, etc.)... and no; it is way worse than anything that you might think about the US "privileges" of the "elites" in America (e.g. Ivy League, etc). Just think what "cool" comes from Paris or France nowadays. Just basically... nothing.

As a result management in large French companies not only live in a completely different reality but also in a completely different century. I guess this is fine when you are LafargeHolcim and you just need to build some factories in Kazakhstan or some new concrete type, but when you are a company like Air France that competes in a very global field (aviation) competing with carriers from many other countries, it shows how old-fashioned it is. I am sure the previous AF management thought this ridiculous JOON thing might have worked.
 
avier
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:25 am

What is the cost now having to rebrand Joon back to Air France in terms of re-painting, seating, etc. Considering they just spent on having it converted to Joon not too long back.

And how does this affect their balance sheet? I'm sure they will take a hit in this to-fro branding exersice.

Not a very wise airline considering they already struggling.
 
mrbonfire
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:02 am

LH748 wrote:
Oh no, I had not yet tried out this flying hipster lounge :lol:
Too bad
Goodbye stupid airline with a stupid name and a stupid concept :wave:


That's right. But I think the point is joon was anything but hipster.

The brand was widely ridiculed when it was launched. It was always a ghastly concept.

Biggest rule of marketing? Never tell the market you're marketing to that you're marketing to them.
 
mrbonfire
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:03 am

avier wrote:
What is the cost now having to rebrand Joon back to Air France in terms of re-painting, seating, etc. Considering they just spent on having it converted to Joon not too long back.

And how does this affect their balance sheet? I'm sure they will take a hit in this to-fro branding exersice.

Not a very wise airline considering they already struggling.


I'd say cheap. Especially if it means no more strikes next year by keeping the AF plebs happy.
 
Aither
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:18 am

SCQ83 wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Just think what "cool" comes from Paris or France nowadays. Just basically... nothing.
.


A country of 65m ranking No 6 in term of GDP with free education, healthcare, 5 weeks paid holidays, top level infrastructure etc.
Yeah, true they don't build the iPhone.
I guess it depends of our priorities in life.
Never trust the obvious
 
SCQ83
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:54 am

Aither wrote:
A country of 65m ranking No 6 in term of GDP with free education, healthcare, 5 weeks paid holidays, top level infrastructure etc.
Yeah, true they don't build the iPhone.
I guess it depends of our priorities in life.


Umm I was not discussing whether France is an economic powerhouse or not. I just say that for instance when American millennials travel to Europe there are other cities on top of their head: London, Berlin, Reykjavik, Zürich, Amsterdam, Copenhagen... Paris and France are not definitely what you can call "cool". Like this JOON "millennial" thing that for the AF management might have seemed "cool" but it is laughable anywhere else outside those CAC 40 board rooms.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:13 am

Stupid ideas from stupid managers. Unsurprising. Always re-inventing the freakin' wheel. And yes, it was targeted towards...er..."millennials". Of course.

Stupid managers should be accountable for the stupid decision they impose to their own staff.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:45 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Aither wrote:
A country of 65m ranking No 6 in term of GDP with free education, healthcare, 5 weeks paid holidays, top level infrastructure etc.
Yeah, true they don't build the iPhone.
I guess it depends of our priorities in life.


Umm I was not discussing whether France is an economic powerhouse or not. I just say that for instance when American millennials travel to Europe there are other cities on top of their head: London, Berlin, Reykjavik, Zürich, Amsterdam, Copenhagen... Paris and France are not definitely what you can call "cool". Like this JOON "millennial" thing that for the AF management might have seemed "cool" but it is laughable anywhere else outside those CAC 40 board rooms.


The fact that you implied Zürich is higher on American millennials wish lists is laughable, at best.
 
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globetrotter94
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:46 am

EChid wrote:
DTWorld wrote:
It makes me wonder what will happen with their 343s. Will they revert back to AF, or will they be parked altogether?

Well, they are all between 19 and 21 years of age. That seems a little young to retire, but not worth converting back. AF still operates plenty of (worse) angled flat seats in their mainline, so probably best use would be sticking them on some typically tourist-heavy routes where your premium buyers won't get mad and operating them as is (perhaps with an AF repaint) until retirement.


Those Joon A343 interiors look better than Air France A343 interiors from 2016 (at least in the case of economy).
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SCQ83
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:50 am

Thibault973 wrote:
The fact that you implied Zürich is higher on American millennials wish lists is laughable, at best.


Zurich (coupled with Basel) is a hub for contemporary architecture and art

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/ne ... witzerland

https://www.art-antiques-design.com/art ... witzerland

Not to mention Street Parade in ZRH or Art Basel.
 
luckyone
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:59 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Aither wrote:
A country of 65m ranking No 6 in term of GDP with free education, healthcare, 5 weeks paid holidays, top level infrastructure etc.
Yeah, true they don't build the iPhone.
I guess it depends of our priorities in life.


Umm I was not discussing whether France is an economic powerhouse or not. I just say that for instance when American millennials travel to Europe there are other cities on top of their head: London, Berlin, Reykjavik, Zürich, Amsterdam, Copenhagen... Paris and France are not definitely what you can call "cool". Like this JOON "millennial" thing that for the AF management might have seemed "cool" but it is laughable anywhere else outside those CAC 40 board rooms.

Not sure your age, but at 32 I’m barely a millennial, an Xennial if you will. My junior year of college I spent a summer in Germany. I would estimate that 3/4 of the students in that program spent a weekend in Paris. Paris routinely features in university study abroad programs. Talking to my peers, most of them have been to, or have Paris on their list.
 
DiscoverCSG
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:46 pm

EChid wrote:
DTWorld wrote:
It makes me wonder what will happen with their 343s. Will they revert back to AF, or will they be parked altogether?

Well, they are all between 19 and 21 years of age. That seems a little young to retire, but not worth converting back. AF still operates plenty of (worse) angled flat seats in their mainline, so probably best use would be sticking them on some typically tourist-heavy routes where your premium buyers won't get mad and operating them as is (perhaps with an AF repaint) until retirement.


So some at AF HQ were confused as to whether the customer base would be millennials, or the planes.
 
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:56 pm

multimark wrote:
Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.


It is a good point. But I think the social and regulatory context is different between France and Canada. To an extent that I dont think that Rouge, as it is, would be allowed in France. A very different airline from Air France had to be launched; otherwise, there was a high risk that the airline would have been taken to court as it could be considered that they were merely launching a new unit just to lower costs
 
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:04 pm

alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Jetstar and Rouge are Low Cost airlines. Joon is not. That's the important distinction.
As someone pointed out, Joon is exactly what Ted and Song were and like Ted and Song it will fail.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:18 pm

airbazar wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I guess Jetstar and Air Canada Rouge continue to be exceptions to the rule when it comes to long-haul low-cost airlines-within-an-airline.

Jetstar and Rouge are Low Cost airlines. Joon is not. That's the important distinction.
As someone pointed out, Joon is exactly what Ted and Song were and like Ted and Song it will fail.


I think it's also important to note that JQ and RV are separate AOCs.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:54 pm

rouelan wrote:
multimark wrote:
Interesting that despite being involved with supposedly successful Rouge at AC since its inception, Ben Smith sees no future for a similar concept at AF.


It is a good point. But I think the social and regulatory context is different between France and Canada. To an extent that I dont think that Rouge, as it is, would be allowed in France. A very different airline from Air France had to be launched; otherwise, there was a high risk that the airline would have been taken to court as it could be considered that they were merely launching a new unit just to lower costs



The main difference is that AC Rouge has clearly defined purpose - to serve leisure markets that have difficulty supporting premium-heavy AC Mainline aircraft. Joon just has lower wages for some staff but not much of a raison d'être beyond that. It serves business markets like Berlin and Madrid and more leisure oriented destinations like Cairo and Prague and the branding is just a hot mess.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:23 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
The fact that you implied Zürich is higher on American millennials wish lists is laughable, at best.


Zurich (coupled with Basel) is a hub for contemporary architecture and art

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/ne ... witzerland

https://www.art-antiques-design.com/art ... witzerland

Not to mention Street Parade in ZRH or Art Basel.


Very true. I’ve been to both, nice cities. But still. France as a whole is the 3rd destination for foreign students after the US and the UK, most of which are in Paris and a big chunk of them being American Students. Berlin, ok, Amsterdam, maybe, Barcelona, sure. The rest hell no. (Oh and btw Paris is the city in the world with the highest numbers of museum/theatres/cinemas per capita so I would worry too much about the art scene).
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:30 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Aither wrote:
A country of 65m ranking No 6 in term of GDP with free education, healthcare, 5 weeks paid holidays, top level infrastructure etc.
Yeah, true they don't build the iPhone.
I guess it depends of our priorities in life.


Umm I was not discussing whether France is an economic powerhouse or not. I just say that for instance when American millennials travel to Europe there are other cities on top of their head: London, Berlin, Reykjavik, Zürich, Amsterdam, Copenhagen... Paris and France are not definitely what you can call "cool".


As of 2015/2016 data France received more foreign visitors that any other country. Cool is transitory - and doesn't necessarily translate into spending.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:55 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Sill name, stupid product and unnecessary to have launched in the first place. I mean really? An airline within an airline to service millennials? AF is definitely making some bold moves to right the ship. Keep it coming.


I know right. Maybe millennials didn't like your main brand because your product was aging badly and you weren't investing in your IFE and fleet. The good parts of Joon.....(good organic food options, refreshed interiors, really good ife) appeal to anyone.
 
FatCat
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:33 pm

I agree Joon is a bad name
but you're with me that SCAT Airlines is worse
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
offloaded
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:40 pm

My take on this is that Joon was set up to pressure the AF unions, and that was all. Joon employees were under totally different contracts. I don't think the on board product or name or anything else was anything but fluff.

Another example. Dutch Transavia (HV) do a lot of codesharing with KL and feed KLM mainline flights, eg FAO (HV) AMS (KL) CPT. Transavia France (TO) are strictly point to point. I asked if we could use TO to feed AF, and the response was no, unions won't allow it.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Caravelle111
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:49 pm

For your information Air France formally denied terminating Joon at 11h UTC.
They officially announced no decision had been taken yet.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: *Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:20 pm

Since there appears to be doubt over the ending of Joon, the thread title has been updated to reflect that the information is unconfirmed. It will be updated accordingly when formal notice is posted from AF/KLM.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Apprentice
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:14 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
Thank goodness for that. Stupid idea, stupid name. Air France is one of the great airline brands, no need to cheapen it with "Joon".


Correction, Air France used to be one of the great airline brands. I got the feeling the numerous strikes caused quite some damage to a once strong brand that now isn't that strong anymore. People are always cautious to book with Air France, you never know if they might strike.

Air France is a very tough airline to manage since any change that isn't approved by the staff will no doubt lead to strikes. And still such changes need to be made in order to keep competitive.

I agree Joon was a stupid name, but the idea behind it wasn't bad. Only it didn't turn out as good as they hoped for. No doubt the management was hoping for more cost savings, but that didn't turn out to be possible. They had to make concessions to the staff and those concessions cost them a lot of money.



Hi:
Disagree: Air France in particular and all French airlines in which I had worked as a Maintenance provider, has been the more strict, organized and safe, from the many companies I had work for. As I said some time ago, I will happily fly on AF any single day, compare to many ones with best reputation..

Rgds
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:03 pm

Apprentice wrote:
Hi:
Disagree: Air France in particular and all French airlines in which I had worked as a Maintenance provider, has been the more strict, organized and safe, from the many companies I had work for. As I said some time ago, I will happily fly on AF any single day, compare to many ones with best reputation..

Rgds


I'm sure that's all true, but they're also expensive. They have to be to pay the outrageous high wages for their staff.

Comparing Air France with other legacy airlines in Europe (Lufthansa, British Airways, KLM, etc) Air France has about the highest wages of them all, and still some Air France employees dare to think they don't earn enough money. They go on strike for even the least bit. At other airlines employees do exactly the same work and get paid less for it, but the Air France employees don't seem to see that.

About Air France my opinion can be short. If they fly, they're a great airline. Expensive, but great. But do they fly or do they strike? That's the question you always have to ask yourself when flying Air France.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: *Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:00 pm

"Joon" sounds like the word "young" in French but I think whoever invented that name doesn't realize how ugly the word looks in English. Somehow it reminds me of a shoe horn.
 
a350lover
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:04 pm

Apprentice wrote:
Hi:
Disagree: Air France in particular and all French airlines in which I had worked as a Maintenance provider, has been the more strict, organized and safe, from the many companies I had work for. As I said some time ago, I will happily fly on AF any single day, compare to many ones with best reputation..

Rgds


With all my respects, your statement is in my opinion quite unfortunate. I resist myself to use the term "safer" for any European carrier. And again, this is just my opinion, but the fact that you claim to be a professional of the industry only makes it even sound worse to me. I want to believe that aviation is safe in Europe, and we all should be strict on that. Aviation is an industry at which 100% of the employees work for a number one priority: safety around the operation.

Then of course we could talk forever about "safety culture", procedures, programs, principles and all the areas from which every airline enhances safe operations at an individual level. The base is equal for all.

And after all this, I absolutely respect your point of view based on personal experience.
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:57 am

IWMBH wrote:
kill of Transavia. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.


I hope you`re kidding about Transavia.
There`s money there.


No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
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vhqpa
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Re: *Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:41 am

Hopefully they do kill the brand off. I always thought it was a stupid concept with no real cost advantages. Even as a so called "Millenial" the way they converted a particular route to Joon only (ie. No AF branded flights) would send me straight to a competitor. By specifically targeting millennials you have to wonder how many other passengers they alienated especially on routes like OSL, TXL, FCO and soon MAD, ARN and MAN.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the concept
https://youtu.be/3uN2cYTCCIY
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:01 am

mrbonfire wrote:
Biggest rule of marketing? Never tell the market you're marketing to that you're marketing to them.


This is so accurate I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

Apprentice wrote:
Hi:
Disagree: Air France in particular and all French airlines in which I had worked as a Maintenance provider, has been the more strict, organized and safe, from the many companies I had work for. As I said some time ago, I will happily fly on AF any single day, compare to many ones with best reputation..

Rgds


No offense but AF has the worst safety record in recent decades of the big Euro airlines.
 
mrbonfire
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:12 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
mrbonfire wrote:
Biggest rule of marketing? Never tell the market you're marketing to that you're marketing to them.


This is so accurate I don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

Apprentice wrote:
Hi:
Disagree: Air France in particular and all French airlines in which I had worked as a Maintenance provider, has been the more strict, organized and safe, from the many companies I had work for. As I said some time ago, I will happily fly on AF any single day, compare to many ones with best reputation..

Rgds


No offense but AF has the worst safety record in recent decades of the big Euro airlines.


Thank you. And yes. Toxic work cultures where everyone arrogantly tries to sabotage each other usually leads to poor working practices.
 
alesfr
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Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:55 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Joon is an utterly silly name. May as well have called themselves another 4 letter word, like Dumb!


Well not really... whilst I don't like the name myself, this is probably meant to sound a little like "jeune", which means "young" in French. Pronunciation is really close.
A318 A319 A320 A320N A321 A333 ATR72 BAE146 B735 B737 B738 B742 B753 B763 B772 B773 B789 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ1000 DASH8 ERJ135 ERJ145 E170 E190 F100 MD82 S2000
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 3817
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:28 pm

notaxonrotax wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
kill of Transavia. Dont fight a fight you’re never going to win and focus on where the money is.


I hope you`re kidding about Transavia.
There`s money there.


I agree, Transavia is a powerful weapon for Air France-KLM against the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet. There are people who would never fly KLM or Air France as those airlines have the image to be expensive and they only fly cheap airlines. With Transavia they can keep those people on board, kill off the Transavia brand and they walk away to Ryanair.

Focus on where the money is? Easy to say, but have you never heard of the pyramid of spending? It's widest at the bottom and narrowest at the top. At the top is where the wealthy people are, they spend a lot of money. Problem is that there are only very few of them. The lower in the pyramid you get, the less people spend but the more people there are. That's the reason LCCs are performing so good, actually the best performing airlines in Europe are LCCs. No matter how low the service level is, there's never a shortage of passengers. They don't pay much, but they fill planes quite easily. Getting higher up in the pyramid, the passengers that you do get pay more but filling your planes becomes difficult and empty seats don't make money. In the end it turns out more low paying passengers make more money than less high paying passengers. Plus of course those high paying passengers demand a certain service level which also costs money, so the actual income difference between a low paying passenger and a high paying passenger isn't that much.

With Transavia, Air France-KLM has a foot at the bottom of the pyramid.
 
texl1649
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: *Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:38 pm

I think this is an appropriate moment in internet space time to give a shout out to those industry analysts/watchers who called them out for what it was at the time it was launched;
Cranky Flier:
https://crankyflier.com/2017/07/24/the- ... amed-joon/

What we do know from the press release is that “Joon will not be a low-cost airline.” That’s supposedly a lie right off the bat since the whole point of Joon is for Air France to be able to get lower costs on currently unprofitable routes. I think what this should say is that it’s not a low FARE airline. And that is a promise that was made to the employees. In other words, “we won’t reduce your costs just to give the savings back to customers. We want it all for ourselves.”

The business model isn’t good, but that won’t stop Air France from pouring a ton of effort and money into creating a useless brand to make it look better. That idea, however, is just ridiculous. Remember, Joon is supposed to take over routes that aren’t profitable for Air France today, and those feed into the Air France network. So having a new brand named Joon is just about as dumb as having a new brand named Ted. Many of the travelers on board will still be connecting from Air France, so this will just be confusing and unnecessary.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4077
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: *Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:46 pm

Since Joon isn't doing so well commercially, closing it may also be a tactical move in ongoing negotiations with the pilots. As of now, Joon pilots are Air France pilots. If Joon lives on, pilots know they will come under intense pressure to agree to a separate, less advantageous contract (as cabin crews were and have accepted). If Joon is shut down, management can either agree to (re)integrate its network into Air France in exchange for pilot concessions on their contract, or close the Joon routes and end up with more pilots flying less hours than is optimal...
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:47 pm

offloaded wrote:
Dutch Transavia (HV) do a lot of codesharing with KL and feed KLM mainline flights, eg FAO (HV) AMS (KL) CPT.

Why would anyone who is not an aviation enthusiast, add 2,000 miles to their travels? Why fly north for 2,5 hours first, when your destination is south?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12298
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:43 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
No offense but AF has the worst safety record in recent decades of the big Euro airlines.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:



MartijnNL wrote:
Why would anyone who is not an aviation enthusiast, add 2,000 miles to their travels?

ANSWER: because geographic efficiency often yields to other factors in terms of travel purchases/preferences.

Example: SIN is geographically the worst place on the planet for travelers from North America to connect to ANYWHERE. Places like India, Vietnam, Thailand, China, even Indonesia are all further via SIN than they are via HKG/TPE/NRT/ICN, from just about any origin point in the Americas.... yet pax from N.America connect on SQ any given day, to such places.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jubaexpress
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:18 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
offloaded wrote:
Dutch Transavia (HV) do a lot of codesharing with KL and feed KLM mainline flights, eg FAO (HV) AMS (KL) CPT.

Why would anyone who is not an aviation enthusiast, add 2,000 miles to their travels? Why fly north for 2,5 hours first, when your destination is south?




Dubai isn't on the way from London to Beijing from from London to Johannesburg but an awful lot of people go that way for a number of reasons.

Faro to Amsterdam seems reasonable given the lack of alternatives.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2135
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:30 am

alesfr wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Joon is an utterly silly name. May as well have called themselves another 4 letter word, like Dumb!


Well not really... whilst I don't like the name myself, this is probably meant to sound a little like "jeune", which means "young" in French. Pronunciation is really close.


I'd pronounce it more like 'joue-ne' as in 'jouer'. Joon is Farsi...à propos considering the farce of a name it is.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Air France terminates Joon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:33 am

FatCat wrote:
but you're with me that SCAT Airlines is worse

It's a contraction of Special Cargo Air Transport.

Personally their subsidiary is more 'weirdly' named, Sunday Airlines.
 
a350lover
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: *Unconfirmed* Air France terminates Joon

Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:50 pm

The point that I am missing here is what's the exact reason that is now forcing AF board to (maybe) drop all plans regarding Joon?

It is hard to believe that the problem here is only the limit imposed by the unions to the Joon fleet, which I believe it was up to 18 aircraft. The pace of expansion seemed to be quite agile, so if they got the agreement approved by the union to create Joon, really, what can be the problem to maintain the operation now, even the fleet limitations? Rather than just labour, it might also have to do with customer feedback. It'd be interesting to check what's been the reaction of the typical AF loyal pax in those routes which were transferred to Joon. AF might have realized Joon's benefit on cost control may not pay off the Joon limitations to fully meet the customer expectations under an AF flight.

In Madrid, when IB desperately tried to get rid off the poorest yielding short-haul routes they made a first attempt to serve the market with Vueling. They launched several routes, both domestic (AGP, ACE, FUE) and European (WAW, OTP...) which never worked. Although it's hard to compare IB to AF, Joon may be as ineffective as Vueling seemed to serve those markets? Iberia finally created a rather white-version of IB mainline (Express), and the plan (equally limited like Joon's - to 22 aircraft operated by IBExpress) seemed to succeed.
Last edited by a350lover on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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