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enilria
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Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:54 am

Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).

I don't buy that the WN Hawaii mess is connected.


Alaska wouldn’t comment on terms of this deal or how it came about, saying its lawyers declared the transaction confidential.
Southwest Managing Director of Airport Affairs Steve Sisneros said the same. News of the deal comes seven months after Alaska leased 20 valuable landing slots at New York’s La Guardia and Washington’s Reagan National airports to Southwest. The 10-year lease began in October. Motley Fool airlines analyst Adam Levine-Weinberg noted the two moves show the once fierce competitors are “pulling back in each other’s core markets,” likening it to a “détente” or easing of strained competition.

Alaska spokesman Ray Lane insists the Paine Field deal with Southwest “has absolutely no connection to Dallas Love Field.”
It may, however, have more to do with Southwest’s other, larger expansion plans.
Southwest Chairman and CEO Gary Kelly said last month: “For next year, Hawaii is our expansion focus.”
He added Southwest will slow growth in 2019.
The withdrawal from Everett may signal Southwest’s hands are full with its planned Hawaii expansion.


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo
 
joeblow10
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:13 am

Personally, I think an unwritten nod to AS for giving them LGA/DCA slots is more likely than the Love Field deal, simply because there hasn't been any change at DAL before or since the PAE transfer was announced. But... if AS retreats at DAL within a year, I'd be much more inclined to believe that.

Also, calling their relationship a "detente" is pretty laughable. They are battling each other like crazy on the West Coast/intra-Cali markets, and Hawaii is next on the list. There's got to be something "exchanged" here; seems to me either LGA/DCA or DAL for PAE makes sense for both airlines as they focus on their strengths
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:18 am

I am assuming you are implying AS gave WN something for WN's slots at PAE. If so, what do you think the exchange was for the PAE slots?

From other threads, I realize I am more optimistic about PAE's success than you are. I was surprised WN dropped out, even though they had the biggest planes and are much smaller in Western Washington than AS.

I would think AS should be worried if WN enters Hawaii. I wouldn't expect anything soon in Washington State, but it seems like WN could hurt AS with California to Hawaii. Perhaps they would even try PDX to Hawaii as WN is stronger in the PDX market than they are in SEA. AS isn't as strong in PDX as it is in SEA, so that too works in WN's favor.
 
BA
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:05 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Also, calling their relationship a "detente" is pretty laughable. They are battling each other like crazy on the West Coast/intra-Cali markets, and Hawaii is next on the list. There's got to be something "exchanged" here; seems to me either LGA/DCA or DAL for PAE makes sense for both airlines as they focus on their strengths


Here's the article from last week about the "detente."

Last year, aggressive competition from Southwest Airlines (NYSE:LUV) in California caused unit revenue declines -- and severe margin erosion -- at Alaska Air (NYSE:ALK). However, during 2018, the two low-fare airlines have started to pull back in each other's core markets.

This process of "detente" continued this week, as Southwest Airlines abandoned a plan to serve Paine Field, a secondary airport near Seattle that will get commercial service early next year. Instead, Southwest will transfer its slots to Alaska Airlines, allowing the latter to further solidify its position as the leading carrier in the Seattle area.


https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/11/ ... ue-th.aspx
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:23 am

Not to get overly into conspiracy mode, but if they really had a “detente” that sounds a lot more like collusion. I don’t think that’s really what is happening, but if they had an agreement to ease up on each other in certain markets that wouldn’t be a good look for either.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:29 am

If WN traded 5 slots at PAE for 20 LGA/DCA slots they're laughing all the way to the bank.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:32 am

enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).

I don't buy that the WN Hawaii mess is connected.


Alaska wouldn’t comment on terms of this deal or how it came about, saying its lawyers declared the transaction confidential.
Southwest Managing Director of Airport Affairs Steve Sisneros said the same. News of the deal comes seven months after Alaska leased 20 valuable landing slots at New York’s La Guardia and Washington’s Reagan National airports to Southwest. The 10-year lease began in October. Motley Fool airlines analyst Adam Levine-Weinberg noted the two moves show the once fierce competitors are “pulling back in each other’s core markets,” likening it to a “détente” or easing of strained competition.

Alaska spokesman Ray Lane insists the Paine Field deal with Southwest “has absolutely no connection to Dallas Love Field.”
It may, however, have more to do with Southwest’s other, larger expansion plans.
Southwest Chairman and CEO Gary Kelly said last month: “For next year, Hawaii is our expansion focus.”
He added Southwest will slow growth in 2019.
The withdrawal from Everett may signal Southwest’s hands are full with its planned Hawaii expansion.


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo


I thought you claimed on AS/VX merger day that AS had already decided to pull out of DAL and would do so quietly within 18 months? Now it’s that they had the foresight to squat on DAL so that they could entice WN out of PAE? Assuming any agreement would be subject to the law, what are you thinking is hidden in there?

FWIW, I’m not denying they could be trying to play nice, but I’m just trying to follow the years-long list of claims of what AS is up to with DAL. Personally, if anything I’d assume it’s agreeing to let DL board it’s flights at the AS gates. Seems like a decent trade to me.
Last edited by PlanesNTrains on Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Dave


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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:33 am

madpropsyo wrote:
If WN traded 5 slots at PAE for 20 LGA/DCA slots they're laughing all the way to the bank.


The LGA/DCA deal calls for them to pay AS for use of the slots. AS didn’t just hand them over with a wink and a handshake.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
usflyguy
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:34 am

Shouldn't this be in the PAE thread?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:36 am

usflyguy wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the PAE thread?


I know this article was already being discussed but couldn’t remember if it was it’s own thread or the existing PAE thread. Anyhow, it seems like it could go either way.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
BA
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:55 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
but if they had an agreement to ease up on each other in certain markets that wouldn’t be a good look for either.


This is most likely what's happening in my opinion.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:01 am

BA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
but if they had an agreement to ease up on each other in certain markets that wouldn’t be a good look for either.


This is most likely what's happening in my opinion.


I somehow doubt that’s in the undisclosed agreement between them referenced in the OP. It may very be present in some other way.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:23 am

enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).



Or - and I know, this is going to sound completely nuts, but hear me out - it could just be that WN realized that a very small number of flights to/from PAE in a market where they've not only lost share, but continue to do so, might not be the best use of their resources! :scratchchin:

Nah, couldn't be.... :duck:
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
BA
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:30 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
BA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
but if they had an agreement to ease up on each other in certain markets that wouldn’t be a good look for either.


This is most likely what's happening in my opinion.


I somehow doubt that’s in the undisclosed agreement between them referenced in the OP. It may very be present in some other way.


I don't think it's directly a part of the undisclosed agreement, but perhaps indirectly a product of the agreement. Whatever the agreement was, they each got something that benefited them, and it involved Southwest retreating from PAE which benefits Alaska.

In the case of Southwest, they can save face and redeploy their resources to markets they can better compete in, such as California and their planned Hawaii routes.

That may be all there is to this and nothing more than that.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:41 am

EA CO AS wrote:
enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).



Or - and I know, this is going to sound completely nuts, but hear me out - it could just be that WN realized that a very small number of flights to/from PAE in a market where they've not only lost share, but continue to do so, might not be the best use of their resources! :scratchchin:

Nah, couldn't be.... :duck:


You're probably onto something.

The Federal Aviation Administration recently completed a revised environmental assessment for the Snohomish County-owned airport, and a 30-day public comment period closed Nov. 2. The FAA is expected to issue a decision ratifying the report’s findings or requiring more scrutiny but has not disclosed the timing.

Obviously, Alaska expects a positive outcome. “We’re feeling confident enough to start selling tickets,” Harrison said.

As for Southwest, Harrison said, that airline recently made the “decision to centralize operations out of Sea-Tac,” south of Seattle. That airport’s location, on the other side of Seattle’s notoriously bad traffic, is the whole reason the Everett terminal exists.


https://www.heraldnet.com/business/alas ... -bows-out/
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:54 am

SeaDoo wrote:
I am assuming you are implying AS gave WN something for WN's slots at PAE. If so, what do you think the exchange was for the PAE slots?

From other threads, I realize I am more optimistic about PAE's success than you are. I was surprised WN dropped out, even though they had the biggest planes and are much smaller in Western Washington than AS.

I would think AS should be worried if WN enters Hawaii. I wouldn't expect anything soon in Washington State, but it seems like WN could hurt AS with California to Hawaii. Perhaps they would even try PDX to Hawaii as WN is stronger in the PDX market than they are in SEA. AS isn't as strong in PDX as it is in SEA, so that too works in WN's favor.


Let's see WN get off the ground from California first before they even consider flights from the PNW. Southwest is running about 6 + months behind schedule by my count. It has a lot of catching up to do.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:41 pm

There is no detente between the two airlines. The entire theory is ridiculous. If you look at how many flights WN added at SAN and SJC next summer, you'd see there is no detente to this west coast slugfest.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:37 pm

Let's just acknowledge The Motley Fool has different standards of evidence than Federal prosecutors or the DOJ. I understand - but don't admire - why The Motley Fool is filled with clickbait nonsense. I don't understand why it has to be brought here.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:10 pm

Background question: Doesn't or didn't Southwest generally do at least 4 round trips daily on almost all of its point to point flying?
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:38 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Background question: Doesn't or didn't Southwest generally do at least 4 round trips daily on almost all of its point to point flying?


There are a few WN stations outside of the U.S. that have only 1 daily nonstop to only 1 U.S. destination on WN.

In addition, there are some WN stations in the U.S. that do not have 4 daily nonstops to another destination on WN, including BHM, BOI, CLT, DSM, GSP, LIT, MEM, ECP, PNS, RIC, ROC, GEG, IAD, PBI, and ICT.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:55 pm

jplatts wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Background question: Doesn't or didn't Southwest generally do at least 4 round trips daily on almost all of its point to point flying?


There are a few WN stations outside of the U.S. that have only 1 daily nonstop to only 1 U.S. destination on WN.

In addition, there are some WN stations in the U.S. that do not have 4 daily nonstops to another destination on WN, including BHM, BOI, CLT, DSM, GSP, LIT, MEM, ECP, PNS, RIC, ROC, GEG, IAD, PBI, and ICT.


Thanks
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crescent
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:10 pm

As another example, MCI has 1x to SEA, 1x PDX, 2x MKE, only 4x to STL (surprising), 1x AUS, 1x TPA. The destinations to which MCI has 4x or more are neighboring states or to their 'hubs' like BNA DEN LAS PHX DAL MDW.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).



Or - and I know, this is going to sound completely nuts, but hear me out - it could just be that WN realized that a very small number of flights to/from PAE in a market where they've not only lost share, but continue to do so, might not be the best use of their resources! :scratchchin:

Nah, couldn't be.... :duck:


But it still required an agreement neither side will comment on.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:17 pm

My take on this one still is WN will seek unopposed access to BFI and this concession to AS on PAE is part of the deal since AS lead the fight :hissyfit: to stop WN back in 2005. :stirthepot:
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:25 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).



Or - and I know, this is going to sound completely nuts, but hear me out - it could just be that WN realized that a very small number of flights to/from PAE in a market where they've not only lost share, but continue to do so, might not be the best use of their resources! :scratchchin:

Nah, couldn't be.... :duck:


But it still required an agreement neither side will comment on.


“Terms were not disclosed” - standard procedure.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:27 pm

SLCUT2777 wrote:
My take on this one still is WN will seek unopposed access to BFI and this concession to AS on PAE is part of the deal since AS lead the fight :hissyfit: to stop WN back in 2005. :stirthepot:


In a word - no.

1. BFI is off the table for as far as the eye can see for a variety of reasons discussed in the past.
2. PAE is nothing if WN gets BFI.
3. AS will not cede ground in the Seattle metro area - period.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
dbo861
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:42 pm

jplatts wrote:

In addition, there are some WN stations in the U.S. that do not have 4 daily nonstops to another destination on WN, including BHM, BOI, CLT, DSM, GSP, LIT, MEM, ECP, PNS, RIC, ROC, GEG, IAD, PBI, and ICT.


I'm confused about this list of cities. Several of them have more than 4 daily nonstops (BOI, BHM, CLT, GEG, MEM, GEG for example). Can you elaborate?
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:47 pm

dbo861 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

In addition, there are some WN stations in the U.S. that do not have 4 daily nonstops to another destination on WN, including BHM, BOI, CLT, DSM, GSP, LIT, MEM, ECP, PNS, RIC, ROC, GEG, IAD, PBI, and ICT.


I'm confused about this list of cities. Several of them have more than 4 daily nonstops (BOI, BHM, CLT, GEG, MEM, GEG for example). Can you elaborate?


While BOI, BHM, CLT, MEM, and GEG all have more than 4 total daily departures on WN, there are currently no WN nonstop routes out of BOI, BHM, CLT, MEM, and GEG that are served more than 3 times a day.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:14 pm

lol. Let’s see how many “pot stirring” emoticons we can use on this thread.
 
SEAflyer97
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:38 pm

Because they don't have small planes to fly into PAE. 737-700 is just too big for the market.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:50 am

SEAflyer97 wrote:
Because they don't have small planes to fly into PAE. 737-700 is just too big for the market.


As has been said before, PAE is close to a huge chunk of the Seattle catchment area. You'll be seeing AS 737s there before too long.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:06 am

enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).

I don't buy that the WN Hawaii mess is connected.


On the day that the VX merger took place, you stated that AS had already decided to exit DAL and would do so within 18 months. Well we've now blown through two years. EA CO AS said they'd give at least 3 years to see how it goes. Since 18 months has come and gone, I guess we need a new distraction.

The article gives zero context to the comment about Love Field so I'm not sure why you are choosing to read more into it? If they asked the AS guy if the Love Field slots were part of this deal, then a natural reply would be to deny it if they aren't. You are choosing to spin it into something else.

As far as the deal goes, how many times do we hear "Terms were not disclosed"?

So AS strikes a deal with WN for the PAE slots and chooses not to disclose the terms. The blogger asks if it has anything to do with DAL and AS says no. But enilria....
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:55 am

usflyguy wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the PAE thread?


The OP of this thread, is the first responder to the other PAE thread & got the title change made to include the WN slots going to AS, so I am unsure why this new thread discussing this subject.
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:56 am

RWA380 wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the PAE thread?


The OP of this thread, is the first responder to the other PAE thread & got the title change made to include the WN slots going to AS, so I am unsure why this new thread discussing this subject.


Why another thread? #StirThePot I think.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:04 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the PAE thread?


The OP of this thread, is the first responder to the other PAE thread & got the title change made to include the WN slots going to AS, so I am unsure why this new thread discussing this subject.


Why another thread? #StirThePot I think.


Dave, you know me better than that, come on now. The PAE thread that was referenced by usflyguy. Being discussed here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408527
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:28 am

RWA380 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

The OP of this thread, is the first responder to the other PAE thread & got the title change made to include the WN slots going to AS, so I am unsure why this new thread discussing this subject.


Why another thread? #StirThePot I think.


Dave, you know me better than that, come on now. The PAE thread that was referenced by usflyguy. Being discussed here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408527


No, I’m saying that he chose to start this thread in order to stir the pot. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:40 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Why another thread? #StirThePot I think.


Dave, you know me better than that, come on now. The PAE thread that was referenced by usflyguy. Being discussed here - https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... &t=1408527


No, I’m saying that he chose to start this thread in order to stir the pot. Sorry I wasn’t clear.


Sorry man, thought it was odd. I'm unsure why it was started, I like these things to be in one thread for ease of reading, but some like to have themselves as OP I guess.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:50 pm

It is curious that WN backed out.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:38 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is curious that WN backed out.


Their entire involvement in PAE has been curious.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
travaz
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:43 pm

This is strictly my take so.... I wonder if PAE will end up like Cuba, everyone wanted in on the pot of gold only to find out it was lead. I think PAE will be viable for AS and possibly UA but WN figured it was one too many airlines into PAE. Also maybe WN decided it had enough on its plate trying to get the HNL service going. Just my WAG.


Edited for typo
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:44 pm

travaz wrote:
This is strictly my take so.... I wonder if PAE will end up like Cuba, everyone wanted in on the pot of gold only to find out it was lead. I think PAE will be viable for AS and possibly UA but WN figured it was one too many airlines into PAE. Also maybe WN decided it had enough on its plate trying to get the HNL service going. Just my WAG.


Edited for typo


Pretty different than Cuba. I think this is mostly about AS protecting their home turf. They would have been happy if some ULCC absorbed all the capacity at PAE and put a damper on their SEA operation.

I’m not really sure of UAs thought process. I’ll be surprised if their flights last. This is almost like STS is in the Bay Area.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:41 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
travaz wrote:
This is strictly my take so.... I wonder if PAE will end up like Cuba, everyone wanted in on the pot of gold only to find out it was lead. I think PAE will be viable for AS and possibly UA but WN figured it was one too many airlines into PAE. Also maybe WN decided it had enough on its plate trying to get the HNL service going. Just my WAG.
Edited for typo

Pretty different than Cuba. I think this is mostly about AS protecting their home turf. They would have been happy if some ULCC absorbed all the capacity at PAE and put a damper on their SEA operation.

I’m not really sure of UAs thought process. I’ll be surprised if their flights last. This is almost like STS is in the Bay Area.

I think KPAE is quite different than Cuba.

Cuba had so many unknowns. How many outsiders would be interested in flying there? How much would tourism make the economy grow? Would that growth allow more Cubans to travel abroad? Etc.

With KPAE, modern data mining on a very well understood customer base would give the airlines a pretty darn precise idea of who would be interested in various offerings, far more clearly than Cuba.

I think the data is saying KPAE isn't a pot of gold, but it isn't lead either.
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freakyrat
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:56 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
enilria wrote:
Interesting that AS felt the need to deny Love Field was involved in the "confidential deal". Why is the deal confidential? Hmm... :stirthepot:

Motley Fool guy implies there is something of an alliance between the carriers (not in terms of code share, but a business alliance).

I don't buy that the WN Hawaii mess is connected.


Alaska wouldn’t comment on terms of this deal or how it came about, saying its lawyers declared the transaction confidential.
Southwest Managing Director of Airport Affairs Steve Sisneros said the same. News of the deal comes seven months after Alaska leased 20 valuable landing slots at New York’s La Guardia and Washington’s Reagan National airports to Southwest. The 10-year lease began in October. Motley Fool airlines analyst Adam Levine-Weinberg noted the two moves show the once fierce competitors are “pulling back in each other’s core markets,” likening it to a “détente” or easing of strained competition.

Alaska spokesman Ray Lane insists the Paine Field deal with Southwest “has absolutely no connection to Dallas Love Field.”
It may, however, have more to do with Southwest’s other, larger expansion plans.
Southwest Chairman and CEO Gary Kelly said last month: “For next year, Hawaii is our expansion focus.”
He added Southwest will slow growth in 2019.
The withdrawal from Everett may signal Southwest’s hands are full with its planned Hawaii expansion.


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo


I thought you claimed on AS/VX merger day that AS had already decided to pull out of DAL and would do so quietly within 18 months? Now it’s that they had the foresight to squat on DAL so that they could entice WN out of PAE? Assuming any agreement would be subject to the law, what are you thinking is hidden in there?

FWIW, I’m not denying they could be trying to play nice, but I’m just trying to follow the years-long list of claims of what AS is up to with DAL. Personally, if anything I’d assume it’s agreeing to let DL board it’s flights at the AS gates. Seems like a decent trade to me.


Delta Ground Services (DGS) handled the Virgin America flights at DAL, I wonder if they are doing it for Alaska also.
 
BA
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:05 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
Pretty different than Cuba.


It's pretty different because Cuba was based on speculations that demand would suddenly materialize due to the normalizing of diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Turned out not to be that simple, and the degradation of relations under the current U.S. administration, has only made it more difficult.

The demand in the case of PAE already exists, it's just going via SEA and to a much smaller extent via BLI.

SFOtoORD wrote:
I think this is mostly about AS protecting their home turf. They would have been happy if some ULCC absorbed all the capacity at PAE and put a damper on their SEA operation.


I don't think AS was concerned about ULCCs coming to PAE.

I think the idea of ULCCs entering PAE went right out the door when it became apparent what type of facility PAE was getting.

Amenities such as valet parking, high-speed wireless internet (when I say this, I'm talking about speeds either not typically available on airport WiFi networks or that require you to pay to get those speeds), and a high-end food concession that is only present in Seattle and New York City, don't exactly mesh with the business model of ULCCs.

https://www.thepointsguy.com/news/insid ... -terminal/

ULCCs, when they fly outside of major airports, often go to secondary airports with pretty basic amenities.

The developers of this terminal are clearly targeting business travelers and full-service paying passengers, not the very cost conscious budget-minded traveler.

Where I think they need to be careful is to not go too far to the extreme, so that they still attract the common traveler that's not necessarily after the lowest fares, but not willing to pay exorbitant fares either.

Based on what they plan to charge for parking, the majority of regular travelers using PAE are probably going to use Uber/Lyft or public transportation.

At $20 per day for "economy" parking, I think they're going to have to rethink their parking pricing strategy.
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enilria
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:06 pm

SeaDoo wrote:
I am assuming you are implying AS gave WN something for WN's slots at PAE. If so, what do you think the exchange was for the PAE slots?

AS reduced DAL flying which de facto gave WN a gate.
joeblow10 wrote:
Personally, I think an unwritten nod to AS for giving them LGA/DCA slots is more likely than the Love Field deal, simply because there hasn't been any change at DAL before or since the PAE transfer was announced. But... if AS retreats at DAL within a year, I'd be much more inclined to believe that.

Also, calling their relationship a "detente" is pretty laughable. They are battling each other like crazy on the West Coast/intra-Cali markets, and Hawaii is next on the list. There's got to be something "exchanged" here; seems to me either LGA/DCA or DAL for PAE makes sense for both airlines as they focus on their strengths

If AS traded DCA/LGA for PAE then WN are master negotiators.
RWA380 wrote:
The OP of this thread, is the first responder to the other PAE thread & got the title change made to include the WN slots going to AS, so I am unsure why this new thread discussing this subject.

:roll:
The way airliners.net is supposed to work is that people post a source and then discuss it. This is the first article to even ask the question of what was exchanged. It is a separate unrelated question from whether PAE will succeed which is being discussed in another thread.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:21 pm

enilria wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I am assuming you are implying AS gave WN something for WN's slots at PAE. If so, what do you think the exchange was for the PAE slots?

AS reduced DAL flying which de facto gave WN a gate.
joeblow10 wrote:
Personally, I think an unwritten nod to AS for giving them LGA/DCA slots is more likely than the Love Field deal, simply because there hasn't been any change at DAL before or since the PAE transfer was announced. But... if AS retreats at DAL within a year, I'd be much more inclined to believe that.

Also, calling their relationship a "detente" is pretty laughable. They are battling each other like crazy on the West Coast/intra-Cali markets, and Hawaii is next on the list. There's got to be something "exchanged" here; seems to me either LGA/DCA or DAL for PAE makes sense for both airlines as they focus on their strengths

If AS traded DCA/LGA for PAE then WN are master negotiators.
RWA380 wrote:
The OP of this thread, is the first responder to the other PAE thread & got the title change made to include the WN slots going to AS, so I am unsure why this new thread discussing this subject.

:roll:
The way airliners.net is supposed to work is that people post a source and then discuss it. This is the first article to even ask the question of what was exchanged. It is a separate unrelated question from whether PAE will succeed which is being discussed in another thread.


WN is leasing the DCA/LGA slots from AS. Maybe AS is leasing the PAE slots from WN?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:26 pm

BA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Pretty different than Cuba.


It's pretty different because Cuba was based on speculations that demand would suddenly materialize due to the normalizing of diplomatic relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Turned out not to be that simple, and the degradation of relations under the current U.S. administration, has only made it more difficult.

The demand in the case of PAE already exists, it's just going via SEA and to a much smaller extent via BLI.

SFOtoORD wrote:
I think this is mostly about AS protecting their home turf. They would have been happy if some ULCC absorbed all the capacity at PAE and put a damper on their SEA operation.


I don't think AS was concerned about ULCCs coming to PAE.

I think the idea of ULCCs entering PAE went right out the door when it became apparent what type of facility PAE was getting.

Amenities such as valet parking, high-speed wireless internet (when I say this, I'm talking about speeds either not typically available on airport WiFi networks or that require you to pay to get those speeds), and a high-end food concession that is only present in Seattle and New York City, don't exactly mesh with the business model of ULCCs.

https://www.thepointsguy.com/news/insid ... -terminal/

ULCCs, when they fly outside of major airports, often go to secondary airports with pretty basic amenities.

The developers of this terminal are clearly targeting business travelers and full-service paying passengers, not the very cost conscious budget-minded traveler.

Where I think they need to be careful is to not go too far to the extreme, so that they still attract the common traveler that's not necessarily after the lowest fares, but not willing to pay exorbitant fares either.

Based on what they plan to charge for parking, the majority of regular travelers using PAE are probably going to use Uber/Lyft or public transportation.

At $20 per day for "economy" parking, I think they're going to have to rethink their parking pricing strategy.


Whether it’s ULCC, WN or another legacy I still see PAE as a mostly defensive move by AS.
 
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:41 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
I still see PAE as a mostly defensive move by AS.


Hardly. If you knew how much of the just over 50% of the market that AS commands out of SEA lives near PAE or closer to it than SEA, you'd understand this is offensive, not defensive. AS will get all of those folks to avoid SEA, and then will likely use the mainline flying it just freed up as a result to serve new destinations from SEA, or add frequencies in other markets from SEA.

And both of those screw over anyone else trying to add more service at SEA, as market share increases and the share of gate allocation from the Port is also decided by the number of flight operations.

AS is tightening their stranglehold on the very finite real estate at SEA.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:33 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
I still see PAE as a mostly defensive move by AS.


Hardly. If you knew how much of the just over 50% of the market that AS commands out of SEA lives near PAE or closer to it than SEA, you'd understand this is offensive, not defensive. AS will get all of those folks to avoid SEA, and then will likely use the mainline flying it just freed up as a result to serve new destinations from SEA, or add frequencies in other markets from SEA.

And both of those screw over anyone else trying to add more service at SEA, as market share increases and the share of gate allocation from the Port is also decided by the number of flight operations.

AS is tightening their stranglehold on the very finite real estate at SEA.


When AS initially announced destinations from PAE, it was a sort of hodge podge that - to me - looked like an effort to ward off anyone who might be looking for an opening. I have no doubt that they are looking at this as an opportunity but I do doubt that they would have chosen to have a second airport open up with more opportunities for competitors to enter the Seattle market (as SEA is full).

It doesn't matter in the end, though, because regardless of how they approached it, they are moving forward aggressively. I'm excited to see how things go for PAE and AS. I'm also interested to see how UA does - I'd imagine the DEN service in particular will be a hit.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Why WN Gave It's PAE Slots to AS?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:57 pm

BA wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Pretty different than Cuba.



The demand in the case of PAE already exists, it's just going via SEA and to a much smaller extent via BLI.


I think this is pretty much spot on. There might be someone who doesn't want the hassle of SeaTac that takes an extra trip from a more convenient airport, but I think PAE will just transfer some of the usage from SEA to a more convenient location for some of the users. Not that I expect it to be huge in numbers, but maybe some aviation fan thinks a quick trip to PAE and the Boeing tour is worth a trip that maybe they wouldn't have made if they had to go to SEA.

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