TheLunchbox
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Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:09 pm

My friend was on flight 260 LAS-TPA when this occurred on take-off. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT260/history/20181130/1510Z/KLAS/KLAS

Image
 
 
TheLunchbox
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:26 pm

Thank you for posting the image - I had trouble with it.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:27 pm

https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts_/statu ... 0961611776

Engine cowl latches, how do they work?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Apprentice
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:02 pm

Spacepope wrote:
https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts_/status/1068551460961611776

Engine cowl latches, how do they work?



Hi: nothing special in latches’s design, they are commons. Problem is people:
Mx Technician who gave Release to Service and Crew member who check a/c.
To confirm that latches are closed, or You use a mirror??? (Never seen that) or you
Kneel down to , by lowering your head, have a look to all Latches. I rarely had seen RTS or a Crew doing that.
At the end, blame will be placed only in RTS’s mechanic.... c’est la vie.

Of course Mechanic who close cowls..... but he, probably was tired after job performed and that is why RTS and Crew Check are for.
Happen frequently, DGAC-F, (Airbus’ regulator, IMHO, must had to demand a design change a long time ago)

Rgds
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
“CUBANA” 90 years Flying”
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:08 pm

First time I have seen the Thrust reversers open up. All previous cases have been just the fan cowls.
Our thrust reverser latches have a big red metal flag hanging down when they are open
 
Rudenko
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:19 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
First time I have seen the Thrust reversers open up. All previous cases have been just the fan cowls.
Our thrust reverser latches have a big red metal flag hanging down when they are open


And yellow markings now, to make sure you check..
 
Apprentice
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:01 pm

Hi: Fan cowls Have also red “flags” that indicates, when not “flush” no properly closed.
Rgds
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
“CUBANA” 90 years Flying”
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:13 am

Tristarsteve wrote:
First time I have seen the Thrust reversers open up. All previous cases have been just the fan cowls.
Our thrust reverser latches have a big red metal flag hanging down when they are open

Are the thrust reversers and the cowling opening independently from one another? Or do you need to have the cowlings open before opening the TR?
 
max1313
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:38 am

On the V2500 engine fan cowls have to be opened first before the TR. not sure about the CFMs
 
max1313
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 am

First time I have seen the T/R halfs opened in flight
 
max1313
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:40 am

These cowls are usually back buy items
 
tomaheath
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:43 am

Would that engine still be operating or would they had shut it down?
 
dragon6172
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:22 am

Wonder if they used the slats on landing
Phrogs Phorever
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:47 am

max1313 wrote:
These cowls are usually back buy items

What does that mean? What's a "buy back item"?
 
max1313
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:14 am

It means two techs have to signed it off . One techs closes it and signs for it the other does the visual verification and he also signs the book.
 
b4thefall
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:29 am

That must have caused a significant amount of drag. Normally in these kind of incidents, only the flimsy forward cowlings come loose and separate. It must have caused quite a fright for the passengers!
 
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LIJet
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:46 am

New one for me. Never seen core cowls open in flight. Normally fan cowls are opened up, then the core cowl is unlatched and pumped open with an external hand pump. Process is reversed to close. Really surprised someone got under the fan cowls to latch them and didn't notice the core was unlatched. Glad those reversers stayed attached. That's ALOT of mass departing that pylon if one lets go.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:17 am

tomaheath wrote:
Would that engine still be operating or would they had shut it down?


With the TRs deployed, and a B737 airborne, engine would be shut down. Don't want reverse thrust (esp. only on one side of the a/c) if the plane is not certified for airborne TR. Really bad things happen really quickly. Don't know if any current a/c other than the C-17 are certified... but the DC-8, the Concorde, and a few others were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust_reversal
Last edited by WPvsMW on Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:25 am

Not one latch closed on the fan cowls or c-ducts. Don't get how this continues to happen, and now not just fan cowls, but thrust reverser cowl now. As you close these items, someone closing the cowls should be closing the latches right away.
Not one latch closed.
You are here.
 
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:14 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
Would that engine still be operating or would they had shut it down?


With the TRs deployed, and a B737 airborne, engine would be shut down. Don't want reverse thrust (esp. only on one side of the a/c) if the plane is not certified for airborne TR. Really bad things happen really quickly. Don't know if any current a/c other than the C-17 are certified... but the DC-8, the Concorde, and a few others were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust_reversal

I think you're mistaking TR activated and TR (assembly) open.

In the Lauda Air accident, the TR were activated, thus creating a reverse thrust on one engine; and all the rest we know.

In this Frontier incident, the TR (assemblies) opened up. The air flow from the cold section of the fan no longer go through the TR assembly, making it impossible for a reverse thrust to be generated.
The TR assemblies being open will generate extra drag though.

Now, does that engine need to be shut down? I don't know.
But, the engine can still generate thrust (most like as a much lower level due to the disruption of the "calculated optimal" path).
The same is most likely applicable to the 737's with CFM engines (-300 and up, MAX included).
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:16 pm

Thanks for the clarification. And a correction to my post... the frame was an A320. IDK if that frame had CFM56-5s or IAE V2500s, but both use cold-stream bypass TRs rather than buckets or clamshells. With cold-stream bypass, I was under the impression that the linkage between the ducts and the RT vanes would force the RT vanes to open if the ducts were forced open, resulting in not just drag, but RT.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:51 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. And a correction to my post... the frame was an A320. IDK if that frame had CFM56-5s or IAE V2500s, but both use cold-stream bypass TRs rather than buckets or clamshells. With cold-stream bypass, I was under the impression that the linkage between the ducts and the RT vanes would force the RT vanes to open if the ducts were forced open, resulting in not just drag, but RT.

Frontier has A320-214's and A320-251N's.
The aircraft affected appears to be a -214, which has CFM56-5B4 engines. The TR on the CFM56-5B engine has pivoting doors (2 on each TR assembly) that are hydraulically controlled. Opening the TR assembly (or duct) does not command deployment/activation of the TR.

FYI, the IAE V2500 on A320's, as well as the CFM56-7B on the 737's, have cascade-type TR's, which are also deployed hydraulically.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:24 am

Thanks, again.
 
jjbiv
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:32 am

What did Fromtier do with the passengers after cancelling the flight?
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:34 am

I actually thought a retrofit latch was done for A320 nacelles to help notice and avoid this problem (if the latch is the issue here)...Perhaps I heard wrong.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:37 am

During this type of incident does the engine in question produce thrust or is it shut down as a precaution?
 
F9LASDEN
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:46 am

jjbiv wrote:
What did Fromtier do with the passengers after cancelling the flight?


Meal voucher, full refund plus $500 voucher for a future Frontier flight, and rebooked them on other airlines

Discussed at the end of this article:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 163815002/
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
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LTU330
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:09 am

Apprentice wrote:
Hi: Fan cowls Have also red “flags” that indicates, when not “flush” no properly closed.
Rgds


There is a Service Bulletin that replaces the FWD Fan Cowl latch with one that uses a Key with a long red streamer attached for better visual identification of open latches. The Key can only be removed from the latch when it is correctly closed. No such system is available for the C-Ducts (Thrust Reverser halves) yet. A lot of C-Ducts have one latch that if not closed will prevent a latch access panel from being closed which makes visual identification a lot easier. The RB211-535 and GE90 are two examples of this. Unfortunately the CFM56 doesn’t have this. It’s a while back now but I seem to remember that the CFM56 on 737 Classics (-300 etc) had a small latch on the forward side of the Fan Cowl that could not be closed unless the lower latches were correctly closed, but I could be mixing this up with another Engine. Worked on way too many different types over the years !
 
freakyrat
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Re: Frontier A320 Loses #2 Engine Cowling Departing LAS

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:22 pm

jjbiv wrote:
What did Fromtier do with the passengers after cancelling the flight?


They rebooked them on other carriers, refunded their tickets and gave each a 500.00 travel voucher to be used for future travel.

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