jplatts
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WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:20 pm

There is an article titled "Southwest-Delta lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter Dallas Love Field" published yesterday on the Dallas Business Journal's website, which can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/12/02/southwest-delta-dallas-love-field-lawsuit-alaska.html, and the article states that the City of Dallas will seek other carriers to utilize the 2 gates currently in use by AS at DAL if DL does not add flights out of these 2 gates.

Of the potential new entrants, F9, NK, B6, and SY all already serve DFW. B6 had previously considered adding service to DAL 12 years ago if the Wright Amendment was fully repealed, but B6 ended up serving DFW instead of DAL due to Wright Amendment restrictions still in effect at DAL at the time of B6's entry into DFW.

F9 is unlikely to operate enough flights to fully utilize 2 gates at DAL since F9 currently only does 1 daily nonstop to DEN from DFW. F9 will also only be up to 3 daily departures out of DFW in Summer 2019 (2x daily to DEN, 1x M/W/F-only nonstop to CVG, and 1x Tu/Th/Su nonstop to PHL).

Even though B6 could add nonstop service to JFK and FLL in addition to BOS from DAL if B6 adds service to DAL, B6 is also unlikely to operate enough flights out of DAL to fully utilize 2 gates at DAL since B6 currently operates only 2 daily nonstops to BOS out of DFW.

There isn't enough room at DAL to accommodate NK's entire operation in the DFW Metroplex, and NK also operates a few nonstop international flights out of DFW.

G4 and 3M are the only existing new entrant carriers who aren't already at DFW, and the City of Dallas could accommodate G4 and/or 3M at DAL if DL does not plan on using the 2 gates at DAL that are currently in use by AS. There are also destinations not currently served by WN such as AVL, BZN, VPS, MTJ, MYR, SRQ, and SAV that could be served nonstop from DAL on G4 if G4 enters DAL.

While most of the 3M destinations in the U.S. are already served by WN, there are a few destinations in the Southeastern U.S. served by 3M that aren't served by WN such as HSV, EYW, and TLH.
 
joeblow10
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:29 pm

At this point... it's time for AS to just reduce to one gate. I mean seriously, they can accommodate 13 departures out of one gate between 6a and 9p. It'd be tight, but with E75s only, I don't see the issue. Then pretty much everybody is "happy" - DL gets their 13 flights, AS gets their 13, and WN gets 90% of the gates.

I don't really see who else would be interested in service to Love... perhaps B6 considering they do HOU instead of IAH, but I still think that's unlikely (and why DAL would force others to accommodate them with such a presumably limited schedule is beyond me). The ULCCs also don't seem like great candidates for DAL
 
okie73
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:30 pm

All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:39 pm

okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.

Ummm...they have. But most didn't want to fly to two airport in the same metro area...or they just sold access to their gates to someone else.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:40 pm

jplatts wrote:
the article states that the City of Dallas will seek other carriers to utilize the 2 gates currently in use by AS at DAL if DL does not add flights out of these 2 gates.


To be more accurate, the article says that the City has proposed to accommodate the additional eight daily flights proposed by DL on the AS gates; AS has reduced its daily schedule at DAL to to 13 departures which is considered to not be full utilization under the lease standard of 10 daily turns. If DL does not agree, the City will then offer the vacant times on the AS gates to other carriers. It sounds like the City is trying to induce DL to put up or shut up with respect to its request for accommodation for additional flights at DAL, although DL for some reason only wants to use WN's gates.
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:40 pm

okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.

The fact they tore down gates to create this near monopoly is just sad.

I think B6 would have some interest. I think NK would have interest.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:43 pm

enilria wrote:
okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.

The fact they tore down gates to create this near monopoly is just sad.

I think B6 would have some interest. I think NK would have interest.


It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?
 
evank516
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:51 pm

The article isn't accessible. Anyone have a better link?
 
nine4nine
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:57 pm

okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.



You’re right, they should. However since the creation of DFW all the carriers went there. WN stuck with DAL for decades with a strict perimeter law and endless legal hurdles, pending closure of DAL and millions of dollars spent in legal fees. Only AA and UA ventured into DAL with minimal flights mostly on RJ’s. There were plenty of abandoned and empty gates that weren’t used at DAL previous of the new terminal but nobody was interested.

Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.

Unless they can build a new terminal and tear up the amended wright agreement, WN should have exclusive use of ALL gates at DAL.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
evank516
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:08 pm

nine4nine wrote:
okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.



You’re right, they should. However since the creation of DFW all the carriers went there. WN stuck with DAL for decades with a strict perimeter law and endless legal hurdles, pending closure of DAL and millions of dollars spent in legal fees. Only AA and UA ventured into DAL with minimal flights mostly on RJ’s. There were plenty of abandoned and empty gates that weren’t used at DAL previous of the new terminal but nobody was interested.

Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.

Unless they can build a new terminal and tear up the amended wright agreement, WN should have exclusive use of ALL gates at DAL.


DL was in DAL in the early to mid 2000s for a while, then they returned in the middle of the NW merger in 2009 with flights from MEM before switching over to CRJs from ATL. ATL-DAL was the one market that violated Delta's own rule of having 2 class RJs on flights more than 750 miles because the Wright Amendment was still in place. When the perimeter restrictions were lifted in 2014, DL was already flying there. VX was the new entrant. Even if they capped the gates, they should have capped it at maybe 22 or even 25 to accommodate new entrants. The whole part of the compromise was to not let anyone else in, let's face it, that's the underlying truth. When UA left shortly after the perimeter restrictions went away, they made a closed door agreement with WN to give them the lease on their two gates. That's where the City of Dallas should have intervened and said they had to give at least one of those gates to Delta.
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:10 pm

ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.

The fact they tore down gates to create this near monopoly is just sad.

I think B6 would have some interest. I think NK would have interest.


It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?

Sure, but politically...
 
klakzky123
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:20 pm

ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.

The fact they tore down gates to create this near monopoly is just sad.

I think B6 would have some interest. I think NK would have interest.


It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


Agreed, the 5 party agreement has outlived its usefulness. The whole thing reeks of anti-trust violations. The DoJ even had a memo suggesting as much but it never went anywhere. Any other president at the time and the DoJ probably blocks this from ever happening. But there happened to be a president from Texas (with allies who wanted this to happen) and some influential members of Congress that managed to push this to the finish line.

The idea that WN gets all of the gates AND the airport is prohibited from expanding is absurd. Either start anti-trust proceedings and break up WN's exclusive gate ownership OR remove the 20 gate cap. Realistically removing the 20 gate cap is the way to go and in exchange, lift the prohibition on international flights from DAL. Texas's political delegation (and the Dallas portion specifically) has a lot less influence today than it did 12 years ago. But it'll require a DL anti-trust lawsuit for anything to actually move. Until then, there won't be any will to fix this.
Last edited by klakzky123 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:20 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
At this point... it's time for AS to just reduce to one gate. I mean seriously, they can accommodate 13 departures out of one gate between 6a and 9p. It'd be tight, but with E75s only, I don't see the issue. Then pretty much everybody is "happy" - DL gets their 13 flights, AS gets their 13, and WN gets 90% of the gates.

I don't really see who else would be interested in service to Love... perhaps B6 considering they do HOU instead of IAH, but I still think that's unlikely (and why DAL would force others to accommodate them with such a presumably limited schedule is beyond me). The ULCCs also don't seem like great candidates for DAL

I think pretty soon AS will cut themselves down to needing just one gate. I can't see how AS's current lossess are sustainable. They should make those 2 gates CUTE and let airlines fight them out.

B6 would need no more than 5 flights imo (3x BOS, 2x JFK imo).
 
wnflyguy
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:23 pm

This is funny.
Because the day that the AS/WN PAE gate deal was announced both rumours and speculation were that AS and WN reached an agreement which included the gate usage at DAL.
One Rumor was that AS will Allow WN to use the 8 vacate gate times on AS gates to add 8 new flights. This was by no means a gate lease or financial transfer but rather than a gentleman's agreement.
Other Rumor was that AS would agree to accommodate 4 of 5 of DL flights on it's gates. This then allows WN to add 8 more flights at gate 15.

Let's hope once and for all they don't allow the court date being pushed back further.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:36 pm

evank516 wrote:
DL was in DAL in the early to mid 2000s for a while, then they returned in the middle of the NW merger in 2009 with flights from MEM before switching over to CRJs from ATL. ATL-DAL was the one market that violated Delta's own rule of having 2 class RJs on flights more than 750 miles because the Wright Amendment was still in place.


ATL is only 721 miles from DAL, and DL could legally serve ATL nonstop from DAL while the Wright Amendment restrictions were still in effect at DAL by operating its DAL-ATL nonstops on regional jets with 56 or fewer seats.
 
evank516
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:03 pm

jplatts wrote:
evank516 wrote:
DL was in DAL in the early to mid 2000s for a while, then they returned in the middle of the NW merger in 2009 with flights from MEM before switching over to CRJs from ATL. ATL-DAL was the one market that violated Delta's own rule of having 2 class RJs on flights more than 750 miles because the Wright Amendment was still in place.


ATL is only 721 miles from DAL, and DL could legally serve ATL nonstop from DAL while the Wright Amendment restrictions were still in effect at DAL by operating its DAL-ATL nonstops on regional jets with 56 or fewer seats.


Yeah, I just realized that. I keep thinking ATL-DAL is 900 miles for some reason.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:12 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Agreed, the 5 party agreement has outlived its usefulness. The whole thing reeks of anti-trust violations. The DoJ even had a memo suggesting as much but it never went anywhere. Any other president at the time and the DoJ probably blocks this from ever happening. But there happened to be a president from Texas (with allies who wanted this to happen) and some influential members of Congress that managed to push this to the finish line.

The idea that WN gets all of the gates AND the airport is prohibited from expanding is absurd. Either start anti-trust proceedings and break up WN's exclusive gate ownership OR remove the 20 gate cap. Realistically removing the 20 gate cap is the way to go and in exchange, lift the prohibition on international flights from DAL. Texas's political delegation (and the Dallas portion specifically) has a lot less influence today than it did 12 years ago. But it'll require a DL anti-trust lawsuit for anything to actually move. Until then, there won't be any will to fix this.


Things have changed politically since the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 was enacted.

President Donald Trump is from the state of New York, and Vice President Mike Pence is from the state of Indiana.

Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison is no longer in office, and Senator Ted Cruz (who is from Houston) took her place after the 2012 election.

There are currently 4 U.S. Representatives from the DFW Metroplex that weren't in office at the time of the enactment of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006. In addition, three more newly elected U.S. Representatives from the DFW Metroplex will be in office in 2019.
 
bnatraveler
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:14 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
The fact they tore down gates to create this near monopoly is just sad.

I think B6 would have some interest. I think NK would have interest.


It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


Agreed, the 5 party agreement has outlived its usefulness. The whole thing reeks of anti-trust violations. The DoJ even had a memo suggesting as much but it never went anywhere. Any other president at the time and the DoJ probably blocks this from ever happening. But there happened to be a president from Texas (with allies who wanted this to happen) and some influential members of Congress that managed to push this to the finish line.

The idea that WN gets all of the gates AND the airport is prohibited from expanding is absurd. Either start anti-trust proceedings and break up WN's exclusive gate ownership OR remove the 20 gate cap. Realistically removing the 20 gate cap is the way to go and in exchange, lift the prohibition on international flights from DAL. Texas's political delegation (and the Dallas portion specifically) has a lot less influence today than it did 12 years ago. But it'll require a DL anti-trust lawsuit for anything to actually move. Until then, there won't be any will to fix this.


At the end of the day, WN either wants access to all gates at DAL *or* they want the gate constraint removed. None of the parties to the 5-party agreement (for which DL is not a part) can move to have it thrown out or violated, and they have all agreed to support it. The result is that WN is gate constrained at DAL or has to operate a split operation in the Dallas metro area unless they move entirely to DFW.

While WN is fighting DL in this issue, I think that they would actually be just fine with the ability to build another X number of gates at DAL and accommodate both their own growth and other carriers in the airport. As long as DAL is constrained in gates, they need all of them. The problem is that WN can't fight the agreement - DL can.
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:24 pm

bnatraveler wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


Agreed, the 5 party agreement has outlived its usefulness. The whole thing reeks of anti-trust violations. The DoJ even had a memo suggesting as much but it never went anywhere. Any other president at the time and the DoJ probably blocks this from ever happening. But there happened to be a president from Texas (with allies who wanted this to happen) and some influential members of Congress that managed to push this to the finish line.

The idea that WN gets all of the gates AND the airport is prohibited from expanding is absurd. Either start anti-trust proceedings and break up WN's exclusive gate ownership OR remove the 20 gate cap. Realistically removing the 20 gate cap is the way to go and in exchange, lift the prohibition on international flights from DAL. Texas's political delegation (and the Dallas portion specifically) has a lot less influence today than it did 12 years ago. But it'll require a DL anti-trust lawsuit for anything to actually move. Until then, there won't be any will to fix this.


At the end of the day, WN either wants access to all gates at DAL *or* they want the gate constraint removed. None of the parties to the 5-party agreement (for which DL is not a part) can move to have it thrown out or violated, and they have all agreed to support it. The result is that WN is gate constrained at DAL or has to operate a split operation in the Dallas metro area unless they move entirely to DFW.

While WN is fighting DL in this issue, I think that they would actually be just fine with the ability to build another X number of gates at DAL and accommodate both their own growth and other carriers in the airport. As long as DAL is constrained in gates, they need all of them. The problem is that WN can't fight the agreement - DL can.

Pretty sure WN doesn't want more gates. This is more akin to when they eliminated slots at LGA and US/AA/others added tons of ridiculous flights (like PHL-LGA 14x per day on 19 seat props) just to block other carriers from being able to operate. WN only wants more gates if it keeps others from getting them.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:35 pm

End this fiasco and give the gates to the only airline that wants them to use them at full capacity that will maximize public benefit--WN.

enilria wrote:
Pretty sure WN doesn't want more gates. This is more akin to when they eliminated slots at LGA and US/AA/others added tons of ridiculous flights (like PHL-LGA 14x per day on 19 seat props) just to block other carriers from being able to operate. WN only wants more gates if it keeps others from getting them.


An airline that is maxed-out in gate usage and operates a significant percentage of flights with their larger capacity aircraft only wants more gates to block competitors? That's a strange conclusion to say the least.
 
burnsie28
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 pm

jplatts wrote:
City of Dallas will seek other carriers to utilize the 2 gates currently in use by AS at DAL if DL does not add flights out of these 2 gates.


Considering that DL originally wanted to serve DAL from MSP, DTW, LGA and I think SLC, I don't think they would have a hard time filling flights for those two gates.
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:52 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
An airline that is maxed-out in gate usage and operates a significant percentage of flights with their larger capacity aircraft only wants more gates to block competitors? That's a strange conclusion to say the least.

How is it strange? It is a common airline tactic. B6 was flying a bunch of junk from LGB just to keep WN from getting slots there. This is a tried and true tactic. DCA/LGA have routinely seen airlines flying junk routes just to avoid putting capacity into markets where people actually want to go which would cause fares to decline.

Anyway, not saying I like it. The DAL situation is a competitive travesty.
 
alfa164
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:53 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
End this fiasco and give the gates to the only airline that wants them to use them at full capacity that will maximize public benefit--WN.


Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:
 
MSPNWA
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:57 pm

enilria wrote:
How is it strange? It is a common airline tactic. B6 was flying a bunch of junk from LGB just to keep WN from getting slots there. This is a tried and true tactic. DCA/LGA have routinely seen airlines flying junk routes just to avoid putting capacity into markets where people actually want to go which would cause fares to decline.

Anyway, not saying I like it. The DAL situation is a competitive travesty.


Does an airline running at essentially max capacity sound like one that doesn't want to grow? Airlines do block (like the others at DAL), but none of the signs point to WN not genuinely wanting to increase DAL capacity.

alfa164 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
End this fiasco and give the gates to the only airline that wants them to use them at full capacity that will maximize public benefit--WN.


Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:

If DAL was truly a monopoly of course....
 
incitatus
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:02 pm

ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


DAL will never be big enough to have gates for all new entrants. The best solution is to bulldoze the terminal, leave it to GA only and expand DFW.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
ScottB
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:13 pm

enilria wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
An airline that is maxed-out in gate usage and operates a significant percentage of flights with their larger capacity aircraft only wants more gates to block competitors? That's a strange conclusion to say the least.

How is it strange? It is a common airline tactic. B6 was flying a bunch of junk from LGB just to keep WN from getting slots there. This is a tried and true tactic. DCA/LGA have routinely seen airlines flying junk routes just to avoid putting capacity into markets where people actually want to go which would cause fares to decline.

Anyway, not saying I like it. The DAL situation is a competitive travesty.


Yes, slot-squatting is a thing, but typically it comes along with doing the minimum possible to stay in compliance with slot utilization conditions -- like B6 using its LGB slots ~60% of the time or US's 20+ daily PHL-LGA on Dash-8s. The DAL gate leases consider 10 daily turns per gate to be full utilization and WN is doing 195 plus 5 DL turns on their 18 gates -- over 11 daily turns on average. WN hasn't bumped up the short flights to AUS/OKC/HOU/SAT/LIT/TUL to increase utilization; if anything, they've reduced short-haul frequency in order to free up gate times for longer flights.

It seems to me that given the opportunity, WN would probably try to grow DAL to the size of MDW/BWI/LAS/DEN. They're just limited by the number of gates which was the real point of the Five-Party Agreement from the standpoint of AA, the DFW Airport Board, and the City of Fort Worth: protecting the AA hub at DFW from competition from WN at DAL.
Last edited by ScottB on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
okie73
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:16 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.


I don’t think the issue is the terminal. The dropping of the perimeter issue was a huge deal. You’re right, with the perimeter rule hub and spoke airlines like all of the majors did not want to fly out of DAL. Their hubs were all behind the limits of the perimeter rule.

By the way, the Wright Ammendment was originally conceived to “encourage” (I would say “force”) airlines to move to the new DFW airport. You can’t drop those rules and then expect to keep other airlines out.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:39 pm

ScottB wrote:
It seems to me that given the opportunity, WN would probably try to grow DAL to the size of MDW/BWI/LAS/DEN. They're just limited by the number of gates which was the real point of the Five-Party Agreement from the standpoint of AA, the DFW Airport Board, and the City of Fort Worth: protecting the AA hub at DFW from competition from WN at DAL.


Demand for AA service out of DFW has actually been increasing since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and AA is still expanding its DFW hub. Significant demand for AA service out of DFW would continue to exist if DAL is ever expanded beyond its current 20 gates.

In order for WN to overtake AA in the DFW/DAL market, DAL would have to be expanded to at least 43 gates and WN would have to do at least 400 flights a day out of DAL. DAL will probably never be expanded to the size needed for WN to overtake AA in the DFW/DAL market.

AA also now can route some of its connecting passengers through the PHX, CLT, PHL, and DCA hubs inherited from the AA-US merger.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:42 pm

Lest we not forget the track record of carriers other than WN at DAL. CO exploited the Wright Amendment to its benefit by serving IAH-DAL, but UA wasted little time in consolidating Metroplex ops at DFW after the merger. AA has tried everything from DAL-AUS/SAT to DAL-ORD over the years - without success. DAL isn't the only secondary airport in a hub market that has been challenging (to say the least) for AA: the story has been much the same at airports like FLL, ISP, LGB and MDW. VX was desperate to find a niche expansion opportunity relatively free of competition, but even that much-loved carrier struggled to justify the exclusive use of 2 DAL gates (anyone remember DAL-AUS?). AS has already downgraded all DAL services to E-175s and seems uninterested in trying anything else from DAL simply for the sake of gate utilization. I have to believe AS would much rather be serving the Metroplex exclusively via DFW, where they can take advantage of AA's hub connectivity. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see them continue to reduce service or completely throw in the towel at DAL sooner rather than later. DL seems to have a knack for serving WN strongholds like DAL, HOU and MDW, but even those services tend to be rather limited in nature - especially compared to what DL does from each of those markets' primary airports. As much as I love DAL and admire the enthusiasm here, let's face it, even a wholly unrestricted facility would probably have little more than a major WN hub operation and DL to ATL on offer. Restricted or not, the cards are stacked against anyone but WN at DAL. The much adored WN brand has been synonymous with DAL for decades and today the carrier benefits from substantial hub connectivity for any route added from the airport...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
nine4nine
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:44 pm

okie73 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.


I don’t think the issue is the terminal. The dropping of the perimeter issue was a huge deal. You’re right, with the perimeter rule hub and spoke airlines like all of the majors did not want to fly out of DAL. Their hubs were all behind the limits of the perimeter rule.

By the way, the Wright Ammendment was originally conceived to “encourage” (I would say “force”) airlines to move to the new DFW airport. You can’t drop those rules and then expect to keep other airlines out.


Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the original terminal at DAL was about 42 Gates and has been greatly reduced to what it is now.

I don’t think it’s fair for other airlines who had zero to the very minimal interest in the place to expect to show up and demand gates when it was solely WN that practically kept the airport open and running and paid all the facilities charges and airport fees that have maintained airport infrastructure and funded the new terminal for the past handful of decades.

If all these airlines were so interested in an alternative to DFW they should have banded with WN as a group to counter the Wright Ammandment rather than sit on their hands over the years, let WN do all the fighting in court just to provide a set table for them.
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jplatts
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:20 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
DL seems to have a knack for serving WN strongholds like DAL, HOU and MDW, but even those services tend to be rather limited in nature - especially compared to what DL does from each of those markets' primary airports.


ISP is the only secondary airport in a major U.S. metropolitan area that is served by WN but not by DL, but DL serves Long Island through its LGA and JFK hubs. AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF are the only other destinations served by WN that aren't currently served by DL, but AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF are all located in smaller Texas markets.

DL also does serve DTW and MSP nonstop from MDW in addition to ATL, but DL inherited its MDW-DTW and MDW-MSP nonstop routes through the DL-NW merger. DL also offers connections to some destinations that aren't served by WN from MDW through its ATL, DTW, and MSP hubs.
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
enilria wrote:
How is it strange? It is a common airline tactic. B6 was flying a bunch of junk from LGB just to keep WN from getting slots there. This is a tried and true tactic. DCA/LGA have routinely seen airlines flying junk routes just to avoid putting capacity into markets where people actually want to go which would cause fares to decline.

Anyway, not saying I like it. The DAL situation is a competitive travesty.


Does an airline running at essentially max capacity sound like one that doesn't want to grow? Airlines do block (like the others at DAL), but none of the signs point to WN not genuinely wanting to increase DAL capacity.

alfa164 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
End this fiasco and give the gates to the only airline that wants them to use them at full capacity that will maximize public benefit--WN.


Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:

If DAL was truly a monopoly of course....

But they have to run at max capacity to block those gates. If you look at route performance in DB1B/T100, a lot of those new routes aren't good. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but again PHL-LGA got up to a maximum of 21 rts at one point. People on here argued with me that "there must be demand". Demand perhaps in the same way there's demand for taxis, but it was not profit optimal as a stand-alone. It was profit-optimal only after considering the risk of a competitor getting those slots. Same with gate space in DAL.
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:57 pm

ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
An airline that is maxed-out in gate usage and operates a significant percentage of flights with their larger capacity aircraft only wants more gates to block competitors? That's a strange conclusion to say the least.

How is it strange? It is a common airline tactic. B6 was flying a bunch of junk from LGB just to keep WN from getting slots there. This is a tried and true tactic. DCA/LGA have routinely seen airlines flying junk routes just to avoid putting capacity into markets where people actually want to go which would cause fares to decline.

Anyway, not saying I like it. The DAL situation is a competitive travesty.


Yes, slot-squatting is a thing, but typically it comes along with doing the minimum possible to stay in compliance with slot utilization conditions -- like B6 using its LGB slots ~60% of the time or US's 20+ daily PHL-LGA on Dash-8s. The DAL gate leases consider 10 daily turns per gate to be full utilization and WN is doing 195 plus 5 DL turns on their 18 gates -- over 11 daily turns on average. WN hasn't bumped up the short flights to AUS/OKC/HOU/SAT/LIT/TUL to increase utilization; if anything, they've reduced short-haul frequency in order to free up gate times for longer flights.

It seems to me that given the opportunity, WN would probably try to grow DAL to the size of MDW/BWI/LAS/DEN. They're just limited by the number of gates which was the real point of the Five-Party Agreement from the standpoint of AA, the DFW Airport Board, and the City of Fort Worth: protecting the AA hub at DFW from competition from WN at DAL.

They need to operate more than the minimum in order to make the argument that their use of additional gates is justified. If they operated the minimum of 10 they would have no argument. That phenomena is very common. At a lot of airports (where the minimum is lower) airlines routinely jam flights onto their gates so they can go to the airport and demand a gate be taken away from a competitor. This happens all the time. It's just that 10 is a very high lease standard.
 
evank516
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:25 pm

jplatts wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
DL seems to have a knack for serving WN strongholds like DAL, HOU and MDW, but even those services tend to be rather limited in nature - especially compared to what DL does from each of those markets' primary airports.


ISP is the only secondary airport in a major U.S. metropolitan area that is served by WN but not by DL, but DL serves Long Island through its LGA and JFK hubs. AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF are the only other destinations served by WN that aren't currently served by DL, but AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF are all located in smaller Texas markets.

DL also does serve DTW and MSP nonstop from MDW in addition to ATL, but DL inherited its MDW-DTW and MDW-MSP nonstop routes through the DL-NW merger. DL also offers connections to some destinations that aren't served by WN from MDW through its ATL, DTW, and MSP hubs.


ISP is not currently served by DL, but it was until 2008. In its heyday, Delta Express was there with flights to FLL plus Delta Connection flights to ATL and CVG with ATL being on CR7s about 3x Daily.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:47 pm

enilria wrote:
But they have to run at max capacity to block those gates. If you look at route performance in DB1B/T100, a lot of those new routes aren't good. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but again PHL-LGA got up to a maximum of 21 rts at one point. People on here argued with me that "there must be demand". Demand perhaps in the same way there's demand for taxis, but it was not profit optimal as a stand-alone. It was profit-optimal only after considering the risk of a competitor getting those slots. Same with gate space in DAL.


There's a difference between maximum capacity and maximum gate usage. What US was doing was clearly squatting by using slots at maximum levels with minimum capacity. That's not what WN is doing at DAL. WN is offering superior capacity with usage-maximizing gate operations.

And should we start using an estimated profit level to determine if they're squatting? That's a rabbit hole. If WN is bringing low fares ("underperforming") to play, it ironically undermines the "we need competition" argument. Fares are already low, and WN is bringing more capacity, creating a superior "public benefit".
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:04 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
There's a difference between maximum capacity and maximum gate usage. What US was doing was clearly squatting by using slots at maximum levels with minimum capacity. That's not what WN is doing at DAL. WN is offering superior capacity with usage-maximizing gate operations.

You are confusing the two phases of the US strategy at LGA. Slots for small aircraft were repealed and (PHASE 1) US (and AA and DL) added tons of 50 seat and less to land grab as many slots as possible when that disaster inevitably led to a reinstatement of slots. So there were no minimums at that point. They flew the maximum. Once they had snatched the maximum possible share of the slot assets, they shifted gears (PHASE 2) to fly as little as possible. We are in Phase 1 at DAL. WN has to fly as much as possible to justify getting more gate assets. Once they have them they will implement Phase 2 and fly as little as possible. I also answered this below...
enilria wrote:
They need to operate more than the minimum in order to make the argument that their use of additional gates is justified. If they operated the minimum of 10 they would have no argument. That phenomena is very common. At a lot of airports (where the minimum is lower) airlines routinely jam flights onto their gates so they can go to the airport and demand a gate be taken away from a competitor. This happens all the time. It's just that 10 is a very high lease standard.

Also, WN basically has one aircraft size, so the Beech 1900 strategy is not an option.
 
AirFiero
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:22 pm

enilria wrote:
ScottB wrote:
enilria wrote:
The fact they tore down gates to create this near monopoly is just sad.

I think B6 would have some interest. I think NK would have interest.


It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?

Sure, but politically...


DAL wants more airlines. Instead of endless lawsuits and assorted litigation, wouldn’t it be simpler to just add two more gates and be done with it??
 
joeblow10
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:56 pm

AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?

Sure, but politically...


DAL wants more airlines. Instead of endless lawsuits and assorted litigation, wouldn’t it be simpler to just add two more gates and be done with it??



It’s not that simple - AA and DFW also were part of the cap agreement and hell will freeze over before they allow more gates to be added at DAL
 
legend500
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:07 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Agreed, the 5 party agreement has outlived its usefulness. The whole thing reeks of anti-trust violations. The DoJ even had a memo suggesting as much but it never went anywhere. Any other president at the time and the DoJ probably blocks this from ever happening. But there happened to be a president from Texas (with allies who wanted this to happen) and some influential members of Congress that managed to push this to the finish line.

The idea that WN gets all of the gates AND the airport is prohibited from expanding is absurd. Either start anti-trust proceedings and break up WN's exclusive gate ownership OR remove the 20 gate cap. Realistically removing the 20 gate cap is the way to go and in exchange, lift the prohibition on international flights from DAL. Texas's political delegation (and the Dallas portion specifically) has a lot less influence today than it did 12 years ago. But it'll require a DL anti-trust lawsuit for anything to actually move. Until then, there won't be any will to fix this.


An anti-trust lawsuit would be immediately dismissed, and Delta would have to pay the defendant's lawyers. The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006, PL 109–352, created this "monopoly" as a creature of federal law, so there is no anti-trust case to be had. It would be like SpaceX suing NASA for not letting it use Johnson Space Center.

SurfandSnow wrote:
Lest we not forget the track record of carriers other than WN at DAL. CO exploited the Wright Amendment to its benefit by serving IAH-DAL, but UA wasted little time in consolidating Metroplex ops at DFW after the merger. AA has tried everything from DAL-AUS/SAT to DAL-ORD over the years - without success. DAL isn't the only secondary airport in a hub market that has been challenging (to say the least) for AA: the story has been much the same at airports like FLL, ISP, LGB and MDW. VX was desperate to find a niche expansion opportunity relatively free of competition, but even that much-loved carrier struggled to justify the exclusive use of 2 DAL gates (anyone remember DAL-AUS?). AS has already downgraded all DAL services to E-175s and seems uninterested in trying anything else from DAL simply for the sake of gate utilization. I have to believe AS would much rather be serving the Metroplex exclusively via DFW, where they can take advantage of AA's hub connectivity. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see them continue to reduce service or completely throw in the towel at DAL sooner rather than later. DL seems to have a knack for serving WN strongholds like DAL, HOU and MDW, but even those services tend to be rather limited in nature - especially compared to what DL does from each of those markets' primary airports. As much as I love DAL and admire the enthusiasm here, let's face it, even a wholly unrestricted facility would probably have little more than a major WN hub operation and DL to ATL on offer. Restricted or not, the cards are stacked against anyone but WN at DAL. The much adored WN brand has been synonymous with DAL for decades and today the carrier benefits from substantial hub connectivity for any route added from the airport...


Just a few clarifications - UnitedContinental initially negotiated a significant amount of space at DAL, the empty extra baggage office and suspiciously long United counter are part of that. UA sold all that to SWA in 2015, mainly because the amount SWA was offering was worth far more than the DAL-IAH shuttle was worth to United. Had nothing to do with the merger, and everything to do with flat-out $$$$$.

VX's DAL-AUS attempt was hilarisad and they should be mocked in perpetuity for that move.

SWA has two things it's worried about should DAL see expansion. First would be the relocation of its cargo operation to either the Bachman or Lemmon side of the airport (an expansion would occur next to the new Garage C and essentially be a modern version of the Braniff Terminal of the Future) and second would be the return of AA's Concierge Airport. AA left for several reasons, mostly because the threat it worried about (Legend) went under, and because running 56-seat F100s was profoundly inefficient. However, now with the ability to run full flights at a location more convenient for many people in its largest Concierge market, AA is certain to demand that any expansion includes around three gates for an A321/A321T operation to other hubs and major markets.

So SWA might be OK staying at 20, because the benefit of 5 more gates isn't worth solidifying DL's presence, giving another airline access, and sharing with a small but intense AA presence.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:26 pm

enilria wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
There's a difference between maximum capacity and maximum gate usage. What US was doing was clearly squatting by using slots at maximum levels with minimum capacity. That's not what WN is doing at DAL. WN is offering superior capacity with usage-maximizing gate operations.

You are confusing the two phases of the US strategy at LGA. Slots for small aircraft were repealed and (PHASE 1) US (and AA and DL) added tons of 50 seat and less to land grab as many slots as possible when that disaster inevitably led to a reinstatement of slots. So there were no minimums at that point. They flew the maximum. Once they had snatched the maximum possible share of the slot assets, they shifted gears (PHASE 2) to fly as little as possible. We are in Phase 1 at DAL. WN has to fly as much as possible to justify getting more gate assets. Once they have them they will implement Phase 2 and fly as little as possible. I also answered this below...
enilria wrote:
They need to operate more than the minimum in order to make the argument that their use of additional gates is justified. If they operated the minimum of 10 they would have no argument. That phenomena is very common. At a lot of airports (where the minimum is lower) airlines routinely jam flights onto their gates so they can go to the airport and demand a gate be taken away from a competitor. This happens all the time. It's just that 10 is a very high lease standard.

Also, WN basically has one aircraft size, so the Beech 1900 strategy is not an option.


You're still not including the fact that the slot squatters at LGA didn't fly maximum capacity. No, it was just like I said - maximum slot usage, lowest slot capacity possible. That is not what WN is doing at DAL. They're operating a high gate capacity and usage.

Again, where is there any shred of evidence that WN would downside DAL once they gain monopoly power of the gates? Since they don't have a DAL competitor on nearly all their routes, and therefore have no incentive to go over profit maximizing capacity for those routes, the only logic that fits is that WN is willing to lose money for the mere hope that one day they can control all gates for the purpose of restricting capacity to markets they already monopolize from DAL. That makes no sense. It's a huge a stretch to say WN is that stupid with their money.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:31 pm

enilria wrote:
You are confusing the two phases of the US strategy at LGA. Slots for small aircraft were repealed and (PHASE 1) US (and AA and DL) added tons of 50 seat and less to land grab as many slots as possible when that disaster inevitably led to a reinstatement of slots. So there were no minimums at that point. They flew the maximum. Once they had snatched the maximum possible share of the slot assets, they shifted gears (PHASE 2) to fly as little as possible. We are in Phase 1 at DAL. WN has to fly as much as possible to justify getting more gate assets. Once they have them they will implement Phase 2 and fly as little as possible. I also answered this below...


OK, so let's look at the status quo in Phase 1 and what could happen in Phase 2:

Currently (Phase 1), WN operates 195 daily departures on its gates and also accommodates five daily DL departures. DL's five flights are 4x A320 and 1x 717, so average aircraft capacity is comparable to WN. Total is 200 flights with roughly 150 seats per aircraft on average, or 30,000 daily seats. AS markets 13 daily departures on 76-seat aircraft for a total of 988 seats (we can call that 1,000). Total departing seat capacity is roughly 31,000 daily seats.

Let's assume WN somehow were to gain control of all 20 gates at DAL in Phase 2. The usage standard under the lease would remain at 10 daily turns, so 200 daily departures for 30,000 seats at minimum usage. I suppose it could go as low as 28,600 but that seems unlikely given that the -800/-8 fleet is close to one-third of the airline's total at present. 30,000 vs 31,000 isn't a huge difference, and that assumes anti-competitive intent on WN's part.

In any event, the airport can't simply force AA (the actual lease holder) to give up the two AS gates unless there's some sort of non-performance like not paying the lease. As things stand, a new entrant (like B6, F9, G4, NK) could certainly request accommodation right now on the AS gates which are currently considered to be underutilized; DL could do the same if it wished to expand service although they seem to prefer to engage in a unit-measuring contest with Southwest (probably because it's cheaper than dumping more capacity to its hub markets).
 
bob75013
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:46 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
End this fiasco and give the gates to the only airline that wants them to use them at full capacity that will maximize public benefit--WN.


Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:


With DFW all of about 11 miles from, DAL, giving WN 20 DAL gates would not equate to a monopoly
 
bob75013
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:58 pm

incitatus wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


DAL will never be big enough to have gates for all new entrants. The best solution is to bulldoze the terminal, leave it to GA only and expand DFW.


Perhaps that will happen after you write a "good" check to cover the $500 million that was spent on the new terminal -- oh and then there's the $50 million or so that was spent on the new 5000 space parking garage that opened last month.
 
peanuts
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:01 pm

So what happened? I must have missed key parts of a long previous thread regarding DAL and DL/WN arguing.
Is DL no longer interested in growing DAL?
 
ty97
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:29 pm

bob75013 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
End this fiasco and give the gates to the only airline that wants them to use them at full capacity that will maximize public benefit--WN.


Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:


With DFW all of about 11 miles from, DAL, giving WN 20 DAL gates would not equate to a monopoly


WN, who wants the other 2 gates at DAL and chooses to not serve DFW, clearly disagrees.

Also, LGA and JFK are maybe 10 miles apart. Yes when AA/US merged, they were required to give up some LGA slots. Guess who got some of those slots?
 
evank516
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:42 pm

ty97 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:


With DFW all of about 11 miles from, DAL, giving WN 20 DAL gates would not equate to a monopoly


WN, who wants the other 2 gates at DAL and chooses to not serve DFW, clearly disagrees.

Also, LGA and JFK are maybe 10 miles apart. Yes when AA/US merged, they were required to give up some LGA slots. Guess who got some of those slots?


Let's not forget the big LGA/DCA slot swap done between DL and US. Guess who got some of those slots too?
 
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enilria
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:54 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
You're still not including the fact that the slot squatters at LGA didn't fly maximum capacity. No, it was just like I said - maximum slot usage, lowest slot capacity possible. That is not what WN is doing at DAL. They're operating a high gate capacity and usage.

I don't think you are reading what I am writing. YES, they did fly the maximum amount they could. There were no slots on 50 seat and less aircraft for a window of time and in order to grab what would become reinstituted slots they flew as my flights as they could jam into their LGA gates. It's an IDENTICAL situation.

MSPNWA wrote:
Again, where is there any shred of evidence that WN would downside DAL once they gain monopoly power of the gates?

I can't predict the future with 100% certainty, but history is a pretty good guide and this is what inevitably happens. Restricting capacity in an uncompetitive environment is an age old formula for increasing profits.
ScottB wrote:
Let's assume WN somehow were to gain control of all 20 gates at DAL in Phase 2. The usage standard under the lease would remain at 10 daily turns, so 200 daily departures for 30,000 seats at minimum usage. I suppose it could go as low as 28,600 but that seems unlikely given that the -800/-8 fleet is close to one-third of the airline's total at present. 30,000 vs 31,000 isn't a huge difference, and that assumes anti-competitive intent on WN's part.

It's not even anti-competitive intent, it's earnings maximization intent. The problem is creating a structure that allows it.

So, the rules today may require WN to maintain that level of service with all the gates, but again we have seen over and over again that WN will have every incentive to begin fashioning arguments to relax those rules if they get 2 more gates. "We can't be expected to meet those requirements with recent severe weather" is where it starts. Then "DAL is the least on time airport in the WN network because of DAL's unrealistic gate usage rules" comes next. These sorts of arguments are how LGA/DCA adopted the 80% slot usage rules. These things happen slowly and when nobody is noticing.
 
jagraham
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:55 pm

jplatts wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
DL seems to have a knack for serving WN strongholds like DAL, HOU and MDW, but even those services tend to be rather limited in nature - especially compared to what DL does from each of those markets' primary airports.


ISP is the only secondary airport in a major U.S. metropolitan area that is served by WN but not by DL, but DL serves Long Island through its LGA and JFK hubs. AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF are the only other destinations served by WN that aren't currently served by DL, but AMA, CRP, LBB, and MAF are all located in smaller Texas markets.

DL also does serve DTW and MSP nonstop from MDW in addition to ATL, but DL inherited its MDW-DTW and MDW-MSP nonstop routes through the DL-NW merger. DL also offers connections to some destinations that aren't served by WN from MDW through its ATL, DTW, and MSP hubs.


In addition to inheriting the NW operations, DL is the only one of the Big 4 to not have a hub in CHI. So the advantage to consolidate at one airport is minimal.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:56 pm

ty97 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Yeah... because monopolies are always good for the flying public...

:roll:


With DFW all of about 11 miles from, DAL, giving WN 20 DAL gates would not equate to a monopoly


WN, who wants the other 2 gates at DAL and chooses to not serve DFW, clearly disagrees.

Also, LGA and JFK are maybe 10 miles apart. Yes when AA/US merged, they were required to give up some LGA slots. Guess who got some of those slots?



A monopoly is marked by the ability to enforce pricing.

When WN started unfettered non stops out of DAL, it hit AA right in the bottom line. AA complained about it in an earnings call

If WN were to try to price flights out of DAL too high, any carrier at DFW could force a reduction in prices. You can see that right now because WN ( and UA and AA) are all matching the $50 Dallas - Chicago fares being offered by Spirit --- which just happens to operate out of DFW.

WN has no pricing powerat DAL. Thus WN at DAL is not a monopoly.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 pm

enilria wrote:
I don't think you are reading what I am writing. YES, they did fly the maximum amount they could. There were no slots on 50 seat and less aircraft for a window of time and in order to grab what would become reinstituted slots they flew as my flights as they could jam into their LGA gates. It's an IDENTICAL situation.


I can't predict the future with 100% certainty, but history is a pretty good guide and this is what inevitably happens. Restricting capacity in an uncompetitive environment is an age old formula for increasing profits.


Oh I'm reading it. I'm just telling you it isn't the same situation. They are very different because the capacities flown are different. When you squat on an asset, you do so with minimal cost, not above average cost like WN is doing.

History tells us this likely won't happen. And since DAL will always be a highly competitive environment no matter who has the gates, there's no risk of monopolistic capacity practices. Either WN is losing profit by flying excess capacity for the mere hope of two more gates, or demand outpaces their limited gates. One makes sense. The other does not.

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