AirFiero
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:05 am

joeblow10 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
Sure, but politically...


DAL wants more airlines. Instead of endless lawsuits and assorted litigation, wouldn’t it be simpler to just add two more gates and be done with it??



It’s not that simple - AA and DFW also were part of the cap agreement and hell will freeze over before they allow more gates to be added at DAL


If they all would agree, and keep it at TWO gates, it seems to solve everyone’s problems. WN loses no gates, DL and another couple of airlines get a gate, AS keeps its gates and presumably the lawsuits end.
 
Fargo
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:07 am

Throw.....the.....gate.....cap.....out.....

Seriously, pretty sure the 5 party agreement could be voided on antitrust grounds if a lawsuit was filed against it.
 
jagraham
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:23 am

MSPNWA wrote:
enilria wrote:
I don't think you are reading what I am writing. YES, they did fly the maximum amount they could. There were no slots on 50 seat and less aircraft for a window of time and in order to grab what would become reinstituted slots they flew as my flights as they could jam into their LGA gates. It's an IDENTICAL situation.


I can't predict the future with 100% certainty, but history is a pretty good guide and this is what inevitably happens. Restricting capacity in an uncompetitive environment is an age old formula for increasing profits.


Oh I'm reading it. I'm just telling you it isn't the same situation. They are very different because the capacities flown are different. When you squat on an asset, you do so with minimal cost, not above average cost like WN is doing.

History tells us this likely won't happen. And since DAL will always be a highly competitive environment no matter who has the gates, there's no risk of monopolistic capacity practices. Either WN is losing profit by flying excess capacity for the mere hope of two more gates, or demand outpaces their limited gates. One makes sense. The other does not.



There are a couple of other unique things regarding WN Texas flying . .
1) Love Field is home for WN. As WN becomes more corporate that will lessen in importance, but it still is a big part of the WN psyche.
2) DAL is the linchpin for intra-Texas flying. Once we exclude DAL (of course), HOU, SAT, AUS, we get
- ELP actually has 8 nonstop destinations
- MAF only has DAL, HOU, LAS
- LBB has DAL, HOU, AUS, LAS DEN
- HRL has DAL, HOU, AUS
- CRP only has HOU
And most of the frequencies go to DAL.
Unlike west coast flying, where most destinations have multiple nonstops to most of the other destinations, the major exception being secondary LA area airports.
Because of intra-Texas flying, WN will not cut back DAL even if the gate situation changes so that there is no need to squat (if WN ever felt a need). Growing DAL is another matter. Although Dallas-Fort Worth is the 7th largest CSA and should be able to generate large O&D domestically for that reason alone.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:27 am

Fargo wrote:
Throw.....the.....gate.....cap.....out.....

Seriously, pretty sure the 5 party agreement could be voided on antitrust grounds if a lawsuit was filed against it.


In a lawsuit you have a plaintiff and a defendant. So who is the defendant? The U.S. Congress and the President? They voted to approve the agreement.

Because it's a legally passed federal law there can be no anti trust suit.
 
Fargo
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:34 am

bob75013 wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Throw.....the.....gate.....cap.....out.....

Seriously, pretty sure the 5 party agreement could be voided on antitrust grounds if a lawsuit was filed against it.


In a lawsuit you have a plaintiff and a defendant. So who is the defendant? The U.S. Congress and the President? They voted to approve the agreement.

Because it's a legally passed federal law there can be no anti trust suit.


And federal laws are subjected to judicial review. Pretty sure the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 violates a few parts of the Sherman, Clayton, FTC laws, etc.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:51 am

Those are just other laws passed by Congress. Courts are going to find against Congress in favor of Congress?
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:44 am

What constitutional authority does congress have to decide how many gates there are at DAL?
IND. 2018: BOS/AUA/MIA/DEN Next: LAS/SLC/DEN
 
joeblow10
Posts: 130
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:51 am

GSOtoIND wrote:
What constitutional authority does congress have to decide how many gates there are at DAL?


Very broadly: the commerce clause - pretty much has been determined by the courts over the years to give them rights to regulate any/all interstate commerce

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."

As long as "there is substantial impact on interstate commerce" (and there certainly would be under the Wright Amendment and its subsequent fallout) - Congress has a right to regulate it whether we like it or not...
 
Sydscott
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:59 am

incitatus wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


DAL will never be big enough to have gates for all new entrants. The best solution is to bulldoze the terminal, leave it to GA only and expand DFW.


Agree entirely. This Circus has gone on long enough and there is plenty of room at DFW to accommodate WN and everyone else. The only one winning here are the Lawyers.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2700
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:47 am

bob75013 wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Throw.....the.....gate.....cap.....out.....

Seriously, pretty sure the 5 party agreement could be voided on antitrust grounds if a lawsuit was filed against it.


In a lawsuit you have a plaintiff and a defendant. So who is the defendant? The U.S. Congress and the President? They voted to approve the agreement.

Because it's a legally passed federal law there can be no anti trust suit.


Pretty sure WN was wanting to be sued when the 5 party agreement happened, but the financial crisis hit and no one wanted into DAL bad enough to sue. WN can't sue, and is required to "defend" the agreement, so the best way for them to burn it down is by being the defendant. Then their lawyers can just shrug whenever they are questioned about the legal aspects of the agreement that are dubious.

but, yes you can sue the government if you wish to. Good luck winning unless you have some clear evidence of violations of the constitution though.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 474
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:24 pm

XT6Wagon wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Throw.....the.....gate.....cap.....out.....

Seriously, pretty sure the 5 party agreement could be voided on antitrust grounds if a lawsuit was filed against it.


In a lawsuit you have a plaintiff and a defendant. So who is the defendant? The U.S. Congress and the President? They voted to approve the agreement.

Because it's a legally passed federal law there can be no anti trust suit.


Pretty sure WN was wanting to be sued when the 5 party agreement happened, but the financial crisis hit and no one wanted into DAL bad enough to sue. WN can't sue, and is required to "defend" the agreement, so the best way for them to burn it down is by being the defendant. Then their lawyers can just shrug whenever they are questioned about the legal aspects of the agreement that are dubious.

but, yes you can sue the government if you wish to. Good luck winning unless you have some clear evidence of violations of the constitution though.

^^^^^THIS! WN would love for someone to sue to get the Wright Amendment completely thrown out. The day after it’s fully repealed, WN would immediately work with the City of Dallas to construct a new 25-30 gate Terminal to compliment the current 20 gate Terminal. They would gladly allow anyone that wants to come in to do so, but they aren’t allowed to do anything WRT the Wright Amendment since they’re a signatory to the 5 Party Agreement. I think this whole battle over Gate 15 with DL has been to try to entice DL to file a formal lawsuit challenging the Wright Amendment in court. Of course, DL isn’t into helping the competition which is exactly what would ultimately happen if they were to sue in Federal Court, so, we continue to have these debates about what can be done about this anti competitive law.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
jplatts
Topic Author
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:33 pm

SWADawg wrote:
^^^^^THIS! WN would love for someone to sue to get the Wright Amendment completely thrown out. The day after it’s fully repealed, WN would immediately work with the City of Dallas to construct a new 25-30 gate Terminal to compliment the current 20 gate Terminal. They would gladly allow anyone that wants to come in to do so, but they aren’t allowed to do anything WRT the Wright Amendment since they’re a signatory to the 5 Party Agreement. I think this whole battle over Gate 15 with DL has been to try to entice DL to file a formal lawsuit challenging the Wright Amendment in court. Of course, DL isn’t into helping the competition which is exactly what would ultimately happen if they were to sue in Federal Court, so, we continue to have these debates about what can be done about this anti competitive law.


The 5-party agreement can actually be amended if WN, AA, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Airport Board all agree to the changes in writing. DL or other airlines who are not parties to the 5-party agreement could put pressure on WN, AA, the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, and the DFW International Board to amend this agreement to allow expansion of DAL beyond the current 20-gate cap.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:45 pm

Yeah....you are NEVER going to get all 5 parties to agree to do that. You could probably get 2 of the 5, but that’s about it. Make no mistake, WN signed that 5 party agreement under duress. WN would have been better served by holding out and pushing for full repeal of the Wright Amendment, but they knew it would take years, possibly decades for the full repeal to happen, so they reluctantly signed the agreement so that they were less restricted than they were originally. I think if WN could get a do over, I’m not so sure they would have agreed to limit themselves and any other carriers that wanted to serve DAL to only 20 gates. Time will tell if the Wright Amendment ever gets thrown out, but it will take an act of Congress for that to happen. Ever hopeful though.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1903
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:04 pm

Fargo wrote:
And federal laws are subjected to judicial review. Pretty sure the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 violates a few parts of the Sherman, Clayton, FTC laws, etc.


While the 5-party agreement could be challenged in court if any of the parties actually violated federal antitrust law or other federal statutes at the time that the 5-party agreement was negotiated, the validity of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 could not be challenged in an antitrust lawsuit since federal antitrust laws do not prevent Congress from enacting the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 1903
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Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:29 pm

Sydscott wrote:
Agree entirely. This Circus has gone on long enough and there is plenty of room at DFW to accommodate WN and everyone else. The only one winning here are the Lawyers.


Almost all of the existing gates at DFW are already in actual use by at least one airline, even though some of these gates are not fully utilized.

I agree that there is enough room at DFW to accommodate WN and everyone else if additional gates are added at DFW. There is also enough room at DFW to add at least 4 more terminals, including the already planned Terminal F.

During the last 10 years, WN had entered airports that it previously stayed out of, including ATL, BOS, CLT, CVG, MEM, MKE, MSP, LGA, EWR, and DCA. WN had also made the move to primary airports from secondary airports in a few other markets, including the following:
  • In the Cincinnati/Dayton market, WN pulled out of DAY and started service out of CVG in June 2017.
  • In the Cleveland/Akron/Canton market, WN pulled out of CAK and moved its CAK-ATL nonstop route over to CLE in June 2017.
  • In the Greater New York City market, WN started service out of LGA in 2009, started service out of EWR in 2011, and discontinued ISP-MDW nonstop service in 2012. While ISP is still served by WN, WN is now much bigger at LGA and EWR than at ISP.

While WN serves at least one primary airport in most of the markets that are served by the airline, there are a few other secondary airports other than DAL such as MDW, HOU, and OAK that are focus city airports for WN. There are several reasons why WN insists on serving DAL in the DFW Metroplex, including the following:
  • DAL is the 1st airport served by WN
  • WN's headquarters are located at DAL
  • DAL is closer to Downtown Dallas than DFW is
  • DAL is familiar to those traveling to the DFW Metroplex on WN

If WN starts service out of DFW or another airport in the DFW Metroplex, DAL will continue to be served by WN, DAL will remain a focus city airport for WN, and WN will still have its headquarters at DAL.
 
wwtraveler99
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:20 pm

evank516 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
okie73 wrote:
All airlines should have access to DAL. Its not fair to allow Southwest almost a monopoly. Other airports have been forced to make access for Southwest and other low cost airlines in the name of competition. Guess what.....it works both ways.



You’re right, they should. However since the creation of DFW all the carriers went there. WN stuck with DAL for decades with a strict perimeter law and endless legal hurdles, pending closure of DAL and millions of dollars spent in legal fees. Only AA and UA ventured into DAL with minimal flights mostly on RJ’s. There were plenty of abandoned and empty gates that weren’t used at DAL previous of the new terminal but nobody was interested.

Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.

Unless they can build a new terminal and tear up the amended wright agreement, WN should have exclusive use of ALL gates at DAL.


DL was in DAL in the early to mid 2000s for a while, then they returned in the middle of the NW merger in 2009 with flights from MEM before switching over to CRJs from ATL. ATL-DAL was the one market that violated Delta's own rule of having 2 class RJs on flights more than 750 miles because the Wright Amendment was still in place. When the perimeter restrictions were lifted in 2014, DL was already flying there. VX was the new entrant. Even if they capped the gates, they should have capped it at maybe 22 or even 25 to accommodate new entrants. The whole part of the compromise was to not let anyone else in, let's face it, that's the underlying truth. When UA left shortly after the perimeter restrictions went away, they made a closed door agreement with WN to give them the lease on their two gates. That's where the City of Dallas should have intervened and said they had to give at least one of those gates to Delta.



Only thing about the backdoor deal is I don't think DL would or wanted to pay for the gate. If I recall WN paid roughly $60 million for each gate. I also think this while thing from DL is to force a real end the Wright Amendment. I think DL wants to force more gates to be built. There should be more gates. An additional 5-10 gate is not out of the question. this allows the city to get control of those gates and devise a plan to allocate those gates how they see fit. there could be 18 WN gates. 1-2 DL gates. 1-2 AS gates. That would leave 8-10 gate for city control. That would alow a chance for anyone who wanted in to come on in. Or if there were no takers then WN. AS and DL could use them.

Fair?

WW
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 8783
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:32 pm

wwtraveler99 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


You’re right, they should. However since the creation of DFW all the carriers went there. WN stuck with DAL for decades with a strict perimeter law and endless legal hurdles, pending closure of DAL and millions of dollars spent in legal fees. Only AA and UA ventured into DAL with minimal flights mostly on RJ’s. There were plenty of abandoned and empty gates that weren’t used at DAL previous of the new terminal but nobody was interested.

Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.

Unless they can build a new terminal and tear up the amended wright agreement, WN should have exclusive use of ALL gates at DAL.


DL was in DAL in the early to mid 2000s for a while, then they returned in the middle of the NW merger in 2009 with flights from MEM before switching over to CRJs from ATL. ATL-DAL was the one market that violated Delta's own rule of having 2 class RJs on flights more than 750 miles because the Wright Amendment was still in place. When the perimeter restrictions were lifted in 2014, DL was already flying there. VX was the new entrant. Even if they capped the gates, they should have capped it at maybe 22 or even 25 to accommodate new entrants. The whole part of the compromise was to not let anyone else in, let's face it, that's the underlying truth. When UA left shortly after the perimeter restrictions went away, they made a closed door agreement with WN to give them the lease on their two gates. That's where the City of Dallas should have intervened and said they had to give at least one of those gates to Delta.



Only thing about the backdoor deal is I don't think DL would or wanted to pay for the gate. If I recall WN paid roughly $60 million for each gate. I also think this while thing from DL is to force a real end the Wright Amendment. I think DL wants to force more gates to be built. There should be more gates. An additional 5-10 gate is not out of the question. this allows the city to get control of those gates and devise a plan to allocate those gates how they see fit. there could be 18 WN gates. 1-2 DL gates. 1-2 AS gates. That would leave 8-10 gate for city control. That would alow a chance for anyone who wanted in to come on in. Or if there were no takers then WN. AS and DL could use them.

Fair?

WW


I don’t think AS has a long term interest in being a player at DAL but are riding it out due to the unique value of DAL gates. Were they to build more gates, I believe AS would be gone. IMHO.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:49 am

Sydscott wrote:
incitatus wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


DAL will never be big enough to have gates for all new entrants. The best solution is to bulldoze the terminal, leave it to GA only and expand DFW.


Agree entirely. This Circus has gone on long enough and there is plenty of room at DFW to accommodate WN and everyone else. The only one winning here are the Lawyers.


Plenty of room at DFW???

Really???

Perhaps you could tell us exactly which terminal will handle 14 million new passengers/year???
 
legend500
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:13 am

The amount of internet lawyering here has been pretty hilarious. Still, Mr. Blow10 answered the question and it's a perfect final answer.
joeblow10 wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
What constitutional authority does congress have to decide how many gates there are at DAL?


Very broadly: the commerce clause - pretty much has been determined by the courts over the years to give them rights to regulate any/all interstate commerce

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."

As long as "there is substantial impact on interstate commerce" (and there certainly would be under the Wright Amendment and its subsequent fallout) - Congress has a right to regulate it whether we like it or not...


Note that the only way one could challenge the Act (for other lawyers, the argument was that excluding other airlines worked as a "taking" under the Takings Clause) has already been litigated in the Act's favor. As of May 2018, the legal and anti-trust route is over, dead, done, burned, and buried. No. (For the nerds, the case is Love Terminal Partners, L.P. v. United States, 889 F.3d 1331, 1336 (Fed. Cir. 2018). No pet, so it's over.)

There is, however, a sneaky way to fatally wound the Act and by so doing, blow it up. It's really quite simple:
Buy an Embraer
Buy a 2-story building in Addison or Carrollton
Give the TSA some money. For a "corporate" terminal.
Hang a jet bridge.
Upload an ADS-YXU flight.
Not exactly profit.

Right now it's in nobody's interest to do that, but something like it will eventually happen.

The other way to do it is to make a necessary party's support for the DFW Terminal F bonds contingent on more doors at DAL. Looking at you, City of Dallas.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3339
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:40 am

bob75013 wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
incitatus wrote:

DAL will never be big enough to have gates for all new entrants. The best solution is to bulldoze the terminal, leave it to GA only and expand DFW.


Agree entirely. This Circus has gone on long enough and there is plenty of room at DFW to accommodate WN and everyone else. The only one winning here are the Lawyers.


Plenty of room at DFW???

Really???

Perhaps you could tell us exactly which terminal will handle 14 million new passengers/year???


DFW's existing terminals are projected to handle more than 70 million pax in 2019 and they're already planning for a new Terminal F. If DAL was closing, which wouldn't happen overnight, the Terminal F project would need to be given the greenlight to handle the growth. If WN was moving in they'd probably want more than 20 gates than they have at DAL in any case so you would need to take that into account when building a WN terminal at DFW. (You'd also need provision to build a satellite complex like they have in E for AA so that WN has growth options without having to build another new terminal for them) Much more sensible, and probably cheaper when all is said and done, than paying Lawyers to fight in Court and paying off Congressmen.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:38 am

So the wright amendment was why I couldnt get a non-stop from MSP to DAL? Looks like it was repealed 4 years ago. Why hasnt Southwest opened a non-stop between these two cities?

Edit: Ask an yee shall receive. I see Southwest is opening up MSP to DAL January 9th 2019. Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
evank516
Posts: 1657
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:19 pm

wwtraveler99 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


You’re right, they should. However since the creation of DFW all the carriers went there. WN stuck with DAL for decades with a strict perimeter law and endless legal hurdles, pending closure of DAL and millions of dollars spent in legal fees. Only AA and UA ventured into DAL with minimal flights mostly on RJ’s. There were plenty of abandoned and empty gates that weren’t used at DAL previous of the new terminal but nobody was interested.

Now that there’s a new terminal (and no perimeter rule with the exemption of intl flights along with reduced gates from the original terminal) everyone now wants a piece of the pie.

Unless they can build a new terminal and tear up the amended wright agreement, WN should have exclusive use of ALL gates at DAL.


DL was in DAL in the early to mid 2000s for a while, then they returned in the middle of the NW merger in 2009 with flights from MEM before switching over to CRJs from ATL. ATL-DAL was the one market that violated Delta's own rule of having 2 class RJs on flights more than 750 miles because the Wright Amendment was still in place. When the perimeter restrictions were lifted in 2014, DL was already flying there. VX was the new entrant. Even if they capped the gates, they should have capped it at maybe 22 or even 25 to accommodate new entrants. The whole part of the compromise was to not let anyone else in, let's face it, that's the underlying truth. When UA left shortly after the perimeter restrictions went away, they made a closed door agreement with WN to give them the lease on their two gates. That's where the City of Dallas should have intervened and said they had to give at least one of those gates to Delta.



Only thing about the backdoor deal is I don't think DL would or wanted to pay for the gate. If I recall WN paid roughly $60 million for each gate. I also think this while thing from DL is to force a real end the Wright Amendment. I think DL wants to force more gates to be built. There should be more gates. An additional 5-10 gate is not out of the question. this allows the city to get control of those gates and devise a plan to allocate those gates how they see fit. there could be 18 WN gates. 1-2 DL gates. 1-2 AS gates. That would leave 8-10 gate for city control. That would alow a chance for anyone who wanted in to come on in. Or if there were no takers then WN. AS and DL could use them.

Fair?

WW


I don't disagree with you that this whole thing is stupid and more gates should be built. I don't disagree that this whole compromise should be thrown out and Wright should just be completely thrown in the garbage. However I think DL filed a lawsuit over this backdoor deal. We don't know if DL wanted to pay for the gate because as far as we know, UA didn't approach them about taking over the lease in the first place so saying you don't think DL wanted to pay for the gates is pure speculation. I'm almost positive this backdoor agreement forced another lawsuit by Delta.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6278
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:25 pm

Sydscott wrote:
If WN was moving in they'd probably want more than 20 gates than they have at DAL in any case so you would need to take that into account when building a WN terminal at DFW. (You'd also need provision to build a satellite complex like they have in E for AA so that WN has growth options without having to build another new terminal for them) Much more sensible, and probably cheaper when all is said and done, than paying Lawyers to fight in Court and paying off Congressmen.


Hahahaha yeah right. The last terminal (D) cost $1.1 billion and that was at the costs of the early 2000s. Litigation and campaign donations are fractions of pennies compared to the cost of terminals at DFW. Just renovating the existing terminals at DFW has a price tag of over half a billion per terminal for the current project. And that completely ignores the higher costs of operating at DFW due to it being a larger airport and delays caused by AAs hub banks.
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:02 pm

Elementalism wrote:
So the wright amendment was why I couldnt get a non-stop from MSP to DAL? Looks like it was repealed 4 years ago. Why hasnt Southwest opened a non-stop between these two cities?

Edit: Ask an yee shall receive. I see Southwest is opening up MSP to DAL January 9th 2019. Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Why? Because with a limit of about 195 flights/day, WN can't fly everywhere it wants as frequently as it wants to. It pick where it can make the most money as opposed to just make money.

That will change by 2024 as WN will have more gates somewhere in Dallas by then. That's when WN won't have to give up DAL gates when flying out of other Metroplex airports. I'd hope for some good ole fashioned horse trading where Dallas CIty and WN lobby to expand DAL in return for not fighting a DFW expansion.
If not there, McKinney or Meacham come to mind.

I don't see WN at DFW though. It won't do anything to offset AA's financial burden at that airport.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3339
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:59 pm

ScottB wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
If WN was moving in they'd probably want more than 20 gates than they have at DAL in any case so you would need to take that into account when building a WN terminal at DFW. (You'd also need provision to build a satellite complex like they have in E for AA so that WN has growth options without having to build another new terminal for them) Much more sensible, and probably cheaper when all is said and done, than paying Lawyers to fight in Court and paying off Congressmen.


Hahahaha yeah right. The last terminal (D) cost $1.1 billion and that was at the costs of the early 2000s. Litigation and campaign donations are fractions of pennies compared to the cost of terminals at DFW. Just renovating the existing terminals at DFW has a price tag of over half a billion per terminal for the current project. And that completely ignores the higher costs of operating at DFW due to it being a larger airport and delays caused by AAs hub banks.


So you'd rather the status quo, (which is the counterfactual argument here regardless of some of the posturing in this thread), of a limited gate terminal which will never get agreement to be expanded along with limitless litigation on who gets access to what which also allows a monopoly by WN on 90% of the gates. Because at the end of the day that's what will happen here.
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:17 pm

Sydscott wrote:
ScottB wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
If WN was moving in they'd probably want more than 20 gates than they have at DAL in any case so you would need to take that into account when building a WN terminal at DFW. (You'd also need provision to build a satellite complex like they have in E for AA so that WN has growth options without having to build another new terminal for them) Much more sensible, and probably cheaper when all is said and done, than paying Lawyers to fight in Court and paying off Congressmen.


Hahahaha yeah right. The last terminal (D) cost $1.1 billion and that was at the costs of the early 2000s. Litigation and campaign donations are fractions of pennies compared to the cost of terminals at DFW. Just renovating the existing terminals at DFW has a price tag of over half a billion per terminal for the current project. And that completely ignores the higher costs of operating at DFW due to it being a larger airport and delays caused by AAs hub banks.


So you'd rather the status quo, (which is the counterfactual argument here regardless of some of the posturing in this thread), of a limited gate terminal which will never get agreement to be expanded along with limitless litigation on who gets access to what which also allows a monopoly by WN on 90% of the gates. Because at the end of the day that's what will happen here.


As a Metroplex resident, yes I'd rather have the status quo.. The fight between DL and WN doesn't affect local travelers.

Besides by 2024 there will be a new status quo. WN needs a lot more than using two more DAL gates.It will have more gates somewhere in the area. The city of Dallas will have a choice. Either join in the fight to grow DAL, or watch WN expand elsewhere in the Metroplex. Which do you think it will do?

Back when WARA passed DFW, AA, and FT. Worth were able to shackle WN with the deal. Come 2024, the shackles come ofrf.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6278
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:46 pm

Sydscott wrote:
So you'd rather the status quo, (which is the counterfactual argument here regardless of some of the posturing in this thread), of a limited gate terminal which will never get agreement to be expanded along with limitless litigation on who gets access to what which also allows a monopoly by WN on 90% of the gates. Because at the end of the day that's what will happen here.


No, I'd rather the 20-gate cap be repealed which is by far the simplest possible solution and the best for travelers. The cap basically exists to protect AA and DFW Airport, with a side helping of airport manhood envy on the part of Fort Worth. DAL could double in size without maxing out the airfield's capacity.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:17 am

It is absolutely amazing to me that this entire fiasco is still a problem in 2018. WN is not the little guy everybody like to claim and they shouldn't be handled with kid gloves. If they want control of 20 gates, give them 20 gates and build more for anyone who wants them.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1222
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:42 pm

ScottB wrote:

No, I'd rather the 20-gate cap be repealed which is by far the simplest possible solution and the best for travelers. The cap basically exists to protect AA and DFW Airport, with a side helping of airport manhood envy on the part of Fort Worth. DAL could double in size without maxing out the airfield's capacity.


No matter how many times you repeat the lie that the gate cap is in place to protect AA and DFW it does not make it true. The gate cap was insisted upon by the City of Dallas to protect the area around the airport.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-109h ... g30659.pdf

Testimony of then Dallas Mayor Laura Miller on Page 31.

Number two, we wanted to protect the neighbors around Love
Field, the residents and businesses. It is a landlocked intercity air-
port and we have done an enormous amount of work in the last 10
years to make sure that we had a balance between growth in com-
petition and also the protection of the neighborhoods regarding pol-
lution, ground congestion, and noise.
I want the committee to know that we have the gentleman,
George Vitas, who is the senior person who did the Love Field mas-
ter plan in 2001 that originally recommended 32 gates as long as
the Wright amendment stayed in place. We updated that for pur-
poses of these discussions between the two cities, and that number
went to 20 because the same consultants looked at what is the very
best number of gates to have without the Wright amendment; if
that one variable changed, then how many gates would be appro-
priate in terms of the environment, in terms of economic growth,
and in terms of operations and safety. And that is why the number
is 20 and not 17 or 22 or 25, and that gentleman is here behind
me and is able to answer a lot of the questions that I heard being
posed to the gentleman with the FAA if you look in terms of our
master plan work that we have been doing for the last 10 years.



https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-109h ... g30659.pdf

From a question to Herb Kelleher during the same Congressional Hearing.
Page 39.


Mr. KELLEHER
. This reduction in gates came about not because
it was the strong desire on the part of some of the participants, but
really came about because of the prior master plan done by the city
of Dallas that allowed the 32 gates at Love Field—provided that
most of them were used by regional jet aircraft rather than heavier
aircraft such as Southwest Airlines flies. We ourselves are giving
up five gates that are our gates as part of this deal. We are going
from 21 to 16 gates. And during that entire period of some 25
years, no other carrier ever wanted to come in to utilize those
gates. And any carrier that is desirous now of serving Love Field
can easily be accommodated even after those gates come down.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:14 pm

Well cjpark, how convenint that you listed the second reason for WARA, but not the first. Why is that?

Oh, here it is (From page 30 of the document you cited):

"The five parties reached an agreement, and the top three things
on our minds are the following, number one, to keep the third busiest
airport in the world strong. It is our economic engine for north
Texas, DFW Airport. We created it together the two city cities and
our bond covenants say that the two cities shall make sure that we
protect that asset."

I thought you said the agreement was not passed to protect AA and DFW.

Well????????
 
Fargo
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:32 pm

Either close DAL to commercial traffic or throw the gate cap out, and actually, I am in favor of doing the former. Unlike ATL, DFW has plenty of room and then some to accommodate WN. DAL isn't very convenient for those on the west side of the metroplex, and a consolidated operation at DFW would be much more appealing IMO. Also given the close proximity of DFW/DAL compared to IAH/HOU and ORD/MDW, it doesn't make sense to have to separate airports so close.
 
User avatar
msp747
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:08 pm

Sydscott wrote:
incitatus wrote:
ScottB wrote:

It sounds like the solution is to repeal the 20-gate cap on DAL, then. Right?


DAL will never be big enough to have gates for all new entrants. The best solution is to bulldoze the terminal, leave it to GA only and expand DFW.


Agree entirely. This Circus has gone on long enough and there is plenty of room at DFW to accommodate WN and everyone else. The only one winning here are the Lawyers.

Or the stupid Wright Amendment could just go away and Dallas would have 2 airports that coexisted just fine together, like IAH and HOU down the road. There is no legislation that limits gates at Hobby and UA seems to be doing just fine. Unless you want to cough up the money to pay off the new DAL terminal and parking ramp that is...
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:37 pm

dup post
Last edited by bob75013 on Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:38 pm

Fargo wrote:
Either close DAL to commercial traffic or throw the gate cap out, and actually, I am in favor of doing the former. Unlike ATL, DFW has plenty of room and then some to accommodate WN. DAL isn't very convenient for those on the west side of the metroplex, and a consolidated operation at DFW would be much more appealing IMO. Also given the close proximity of DFW/DAL compared to IAH/HOU and ORD/MDW, it doesn't make sense to have to separate airports so close.


I guess you don't know that over 40 years ago a federal court ruled that DAL could not keep out commercial traffic.

So the options are

1) Allow commercial operations .or.

2) Close the airport.

Which option do you think the city of Dallas would choose?

Oh, and the 14 million pax that pass through DAL this year probably disagree with you about it "making no sense to have two separate airports so close."
 
cjpark
Posts: 1222
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:55 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Well cjpark, how convenint that you listed the second reason for WARA, but not the first. Why is that?

Oh, here it is (From page 30 of the document you cited):

"The five parties reached an agreement, and the top three things
on our minds are the following, number one, to keep the third busiest
airport in the world strong. It is our economic engine for north
Texas, DFW Airport. We created it together the two city cities and
our bond covenants say that the two cities shall make sure that we
protect that asset."

I thought you said the agreement was not passed to protect AA and DFW.

Well????????



How did we go from talking about the gate cap to the whole of the WARA?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
bob75013
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN-DL lawsuit takes turn, other airlines could enter DAL

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:33 pm

cjpark wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Well cjpark, how convenint that you listed the second reason for WARA, but not the first. Why is that?

Oh, here it is (From page 30 of the document you cited):

"The five parties reached an agreement, and the top three things
on our minds are the following, number one, to keep the third busiest
airport in the world strong. It is our economic engine for north
Texas, DFW Airport. We created it together the two city cities and
our bond covenants say that the two cities shall make sure that we
protect that asset."

I thought you said the agreement was not passed to protect AA and DFW.

Well????????



How did we go from talking about the gate cap to the whole of the WARA?


We got there because you said "No matter how many times you repeat the lie that the gate cap is in place to protect AA and DFW it does not make it true"

Which, by the quote I provided, and you conveniently ignored, proved that your statement is false.

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