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janders
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Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:21 am

Hong Kong Accident Investigation Authority is investigating a serious incident in which an Air India Boeing 787-8 descended to within 200 feet of the ocean some 2.6 nautical miles while on approach to Chek Lap Kok Airport runway 07R result of ILS glide path fluctuations before crew initiated a go around.

https://www.thb.gov.hk/aaia/doc/Serious ... -2018e.pdf
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=219044
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UPlog
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:29 am

:eek: :eek:

Down to 200feet at 2.6nm :confused:

No one in the cockpit is monitoring the approach??

I dont have charts in front of me but at 2.6dme should be a bit under 1,000ft not nearly in the ocean at 200ft.
Heck the go around decision height is probably more than 200ft!
 
m007j
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:46 am

UPlog wrote:
:eek: :eek:

Down to 200feet at 2.6nm :confused:

No one in the cockpit is monitoring the approach??


Apparently 7R's ILS has been having ongoing issues with its glideslope. With a nighttime landing and the instruments and HUD indicating they were on glidepath after a long flight, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where pilots monitoring instruments are just following the bug on the HUD and are too tired to notice the distance to the runway lights is too far for the altitude they were at. Not to mention the DME indicator on the 787 HUD is by no means the largest number on that display in both normal and decluttered modes. Nothing in the NOTAMs either, so what would the crew have been expecting other than the ILS to guide them home?

PS Maybe zeke can give us all some more insight on the glideslope behavior at HKG recently...
 
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UPlog
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:51 am

From report:

Before the approach to Hong Kong, the crew had received cautionary information from the Hong Kong arrival Automatic Terminal Information Service (ATIS) regarding the possibility of Instrument Landing System (ILS) glideslope fluctuation. At 06:08:17 hours local time, the Air Traffic Control (ATC) further advised the crew of the possible glide path signal fluctuation. At 06:11:00 hours, ATC cleared the aircraft for the instrument landing system (ILS) approach for runway 07R. During the approach, the aircraft descended rapidly, triggering a Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) alert on board the aircraft.


Crew was made aware and should have been on the lookout for any anomalies. :old:
 
Luke1994
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:53 am

m007j wrote:
UPlog wrote:
:eek: :eek:

Down to 200feet at 2.6nm :confused:

No one in the cockpit is monitoring the approach??


Apparently 7R's ILS has been having ongoing issues with its glideslope. With a nighttime landing and the instruments and HUD indicating they were on glidepath after a long flight, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where pilots monitoring instruments are just following the bug on the HUD and are too tired to notice the distance to the runway lights is too far for the altitude they were at. Not to mention the DME indicator on the 787 HUD is by no means the largest number on that display in both normal and decluttered modes. Nothing in the NOTAMs either, so what would the crew have been expecting other than the ILS to guide them home?

PS Maybe zeke can give us all some more insight on the glideslope behavior at HKG recently...


As pilots, we’re supposed to be calling out altitudes and cross checking them with the radio altimeter (if equipped) on any approach. Heck, jets like the 787 call it out for you. Did it not call it out? No minimums/decide callout?

Being tired is no excuse for what happened, regardless if it’s a C172 or a Boeing 787-8.
CMEL student for now...
 
LDRA
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:58 am

I heard this is the same aircraft, VT-ANE, that was hit by a building at ARN?!
Last edited by LDRA on Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:02 am

LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft that was hit by a building at ARN?!

You mean the same aircraft type, or the same exact airplane?
No, "FA" in my username does not stand for "flight attendant"...
 
777PHX
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:05 am

m007j wrote:
UPlog wrote:
:eek: :eek:

Down to 200feet at 2.6nm :confused:

No one in the cockpit is monitoring the approach??


Apparently 7R's ILS has been having ongoing issues with its glideslope. With a nighttime landing and the instruments and HUD indicating they were on glidepath after a long flight, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where pilots monitoring instruments are just following the bug on the HUD and are too tired to notice the distance to the runway lights is too far for the altitude they were at. Not to mention the DME indicator on the 787 HUD is by no means the largest number on that display in both normal and decluttered modes. Nothing in the NOTAMs either, so what would the crew have been expecting other than the ILS to guide them home?

PS Maybe zeke can give us all some more insight on the glideslope behavior at HKG recently...


The radio altimeter should have clued them in something was amiss as well as the aural call outs.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:07 am

DA appears to be 200’ AGL for CAT I and 100’ AGL CAT II on the 7R chart. I am usually never a defender of Air India, but I could see this happening. Especially if they followed the glide slope down smoothly and went around right at 200’ (as apposed to dive and drive). I don’t see how cross check with Radio Altimeter would help here. DME for sure would help. But if they missed the GS message in the ATIS and they were on what they thought was the GS, I could see following that down to 200’.

What surprises me is they leave that message just in the ATIS. I would think at least the landing clearance would reiterate that. Kind of like Windshear. All the more because it was an instrument approach.
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LDRA
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:08 am

FA9295 wrote:
LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft that was hit by a building at ARN?!

You mean the same aircraft type, or the same exact airplane?


Individual airplane, VT-ANE
 
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janders
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:18 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
What surprises me is they leave that message just in the ATIS. I would think at least the landing clearance would reiterate that. Kind of like Windshear. All the more because it was an instrument approach.


Crew was additionally caution >>>

UPlog wrote:
At 06:08:17 hours local time, the Air Traffic Control (ATC) further advised the crew of the possible glide path signal fluctuation. At 06:11:00 hours, ATC cleared the aircraft for the instrument landing system (ILS) approach for runway 07R. [/i]
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:19 am

janders wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
What surprises me is they leave that message just in the ATIS. I would think at least the landing clearance would reiterate that. Kind of like Windshear. All the more because it was an instrument approach.


Crew was additionally caution >>>

UPlog wrote:
At 06:08:17 hours local time, the Air Traffic Control (ATC) further advised the crew of the possible glide path signal fluctuation. At 06:11:00 hours, ATC cleared the aircraft for the instrument landing system (ILS) approach for runway 07R. [/i]


Ahhh. Missed that. Thanks. That makes it a lot worse then.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:24 am

LDRA wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft that was hit by a building at ARN?!

You mean the same aircraft type, or the same exact airplane?


Individual airplane, VT-ANE

Interesting... ANE in French means donkey; maybe that specific plane is indeed a stubborn donkey :lol:
 
Cunard
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:32 am

LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft, VT-ANE, that was hit by a building at ARN?!


Did you actually 'hear it' or did you actually read it because so many people use the term 'I heard' rather than 'I read'!

But your absolutely correct and I'm assuming that you read it somewhere but the aircraft an Air India B788 VT-ANE involved in the collision with a building at ARN on the 29 November 2018 was the same aircraft involved in this incident at HKG that occurred on the 20 October 2018.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:49 am

I'm shocked something like this would happen on Air India... :lol:
 
reltney
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:02 am

LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft, VT-ANE, that was hit by a building at ARN?!


How did the building hit the airplane? Was the building in motion? I hate when that happens.....
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Jamie514
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:32 am

Sounds like HKG ATC knew this ILS was faulty prior to this incident. Why was it not off line and other procedures/approaches/runways with functional ILS put into use, particularly at night for extended overwater approaches with minimal visual fixes available.

At the very most, an old school uncoupled ILS approach where descent rate and heading are manual, and the ILS only tuned to trace the approach. Letting the plane fly itself based on a known faulty ILS reeks of poor airmanship.

More than enough blame to go around.
 
m007j
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:41 am

Luke1994 wrote:
As pilots, we’re supposed to be calling out altitudes and cross checking them with the radio altimeter (if equipped) on any approach. Heck, jets like the 787 call it out for you. Did it not call it out? No minimums/decide callout?

Being tired is no excuse for what happened, regardless if it’s a C172 or a Boeing 787-8.

777PHX wrote:
The radio altimeter should have clued them in something was amiss as well as the aural call outs.


Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how the RA would help. If you're listening to the call outs and watching the flight director guidance and it shows you on glideslope the whole way down, I don't see a systematic trigger that would alert you that you're actually off slope. The only visual cue might be that the HUD's flight path vector bug doesn't overlap with the runway lights, but they missed that too. 200 feet is around the normal altitude for a minimums call, reasonable assumption would be that they heard "minimums" and the "terrain, pull up" call on top of each other. Clearly they lost awareness somewhere since they missed ATC and the D-ATIS warnings, the question is why.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:43 am

You'd kind of think the pilots would be warned that the ILS wasn't 100% recently.
 
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:11 am

Jamie514 wrote:
Sounds like HKG ATC knew this ILS was faulty prior to this incident. Why was it not off line and other procedures/approaches/runways with functional ILS put into use, particularly at night for extended overwater approaches with minimal visual fixes available.


The ILS for 07R in HKG can be interfered by Cargo aircraft on taxiway K, which ATC warn you about and reiterate the caution of GS fluctuations as aircraft may be in the sensitive area. When Cathay built it's Cargo handling terminal a few years ago, the metal scaffolding was suspecting to cause disturbance to the signal, this was in the NOTAM, but was removed a while ago.
The warning of G/S fluctuations or false capture is in the ATIS and always reiterated when ATC give clearances on 07R. Alternative approaches are available as a result (including RNP AR). The signal itself is not faulty.
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Slash787
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:44 am

The plane was haunted, first it descents so low and then it hits a building, I don't blame Air India.
 
avier
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:52 am

Maybe it's an unlucky jinxed aircraft for them. They should instead have used that one for spare parts.

Jokes aside, why did silly HKG allow ILS usage on that runway despite know it malfunctions? What kind of major airport with such scale of operations allow that? They could have either discontinued ILS usage for that RWY and used some other approach aid or used the other runway for landings and this one for takeoffs only.
Instrument malfunction is the airport operators fault more so and its even worse to continue using it despite knowing it's malfunctioning.
 
Luke1994
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:59 am

m007j wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
As pilots, we’re supposed to be calling out altitudes and cross checking them with the radio altimeter (if equipped) on any approach. Heck, jets like the 787 call it out for you. Did it not call it out? No minimums/decide callout?

Being tired is no excuse for what happened, regardless if it’s a C172 or a Boeing 787-8.

777PHX wrote:
The radio altimeter should have clued them in something was amiss as well as the aural call outs.


Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how the RA would help. If you're listening to the call outs and watching the flight director guidance and it shows you on glideslope the whole way down, I don't see a systematic trigger that would alert you that you're actually off slope. The only visual cue might be that the HUD's flight path vector bug doesn't overlap with the runway lights, but they missed that too. 200 feet is around the normal altitude for a minimums call, reasonable assumption would be that they heard "minimums" and the "terrain, pull up" call on top of each other. Clearly they lost awareness somewhere since they missed ATC and the D-ATIS warnings, the question is why.

RA ties in with a pilot’s instrument scan during an IAP. I’m not sure what AI’s SOP are for IAPs, but I don’t think they’d be different from what we use here in the states.

I always, no matter what, start a timer when crossing my FAF, no matter what approach type I’m flying, be it ILS, VOR, RNAV, etc. even if it’s precision or precision like with a DA, I just like to have one going, just as a backup. Most charts are going to give you an FAF to MAP time at xxx airspeed so it would be very useful in a situation where, say, your GS is being wonky. So here, if the FAF to MAP time was, say 2:45, would it make sense to hit DA in 1:20? No, and that’s why it’s so useful to have that backup, in addition to crosschecking your DME, altitude, airspeed, etc.

Always make sure you keep your scan and SA sharp at all times, especially on an IAP after a long flight.:)
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Jouhou
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:13 am

reltney wrote:
LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft, VT-ANE, that was hit by a building at ARN?!


How did the building hit the airplane? Was the building in motion? I hate when that happens.....


It just jumped out there and froze like a deer in headlights.

I'm more curious if it was the same pilots as the previous incident.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:51 am

reltney wrote:
LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft, VT-ANE, that was hit by a building at ARN?!


How did the building hit the airplane? Was the building in motion? I hate when that happens.....


Apparently the building came around the corner so fast that it was impossible to avoid.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:58 am

UPlog wrote:
No one in the cockpit is monitoring the approach??
Heck the go around decision height is probably more than 200ft!


Did you notice the words "Air India" in the thread title?
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:28 am

avier wrote:
Maybe it's an unlucky jinxed aircraft for them. They should instead have used that one for spare parts.

Jokes aside, why did silly HKG allow ILS usage on that runway despite know it malfunctions? What kind of major airport with such scale of operations allow that? They could have either discontinued ILS usage for that RWY and used some other approach aid or used the other runway for landings and this one for takeoffs only.
Instrument malfunction is the airport operators fault more so and its even worse to continue using it despite knowing it's malfunctioning.


Glideslope fluctuations on HKG's southern runway are not new. They are sporadic and well documented. All major operators into HKG know about it and have integrated it in their operational notes to pilots. It is not an equipment malfunction but a result of interference from the surrounding ground traffic which is in close proximity to the runway (as everywhere else in Hong Kong, real estate is at a premium at HKG).
When this runway is in use for landing (late night/early morning when the northern runway is closed for maintenance), the RNAV approach to that runway is also available to those who request it and are suitably equipped.

This is not the first instance of an aircraft deviating below the glidepath to that runway following erroneous glideslope indications, though I don't believe any ever came that low.

The minima would have been called by the airplane, at which stage the crew would have realized that they either did not see the runway or that the outside picture looked wrong and in both case would have initiated the go around.
The CAT 1 minimum is about 230 feet. If initiated at this altitude, the airplane would go down at least 30-50 feet lower than than before climbing out again.
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UPlog
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:05 am

I think some of you are incorrectly blaming the airport or ATC.

Fact is the ILS is functional. What can happen is the signal can fluctuate when there is potential interference. Same can happen on any runway anywhere if the ILS critical protection area is somehow interrupted.

This occurrence at HKG is well known, its published, its noted on the ATIS, and the Air India crew was specifically reminded. The crew blew it.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:57 am

My money is on autoland and the pilots were already in the crew lane at immigration in their minds.
 
EChid
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:14 am

Nomadd wrote:
You'd kind of think the pilots would be warned that the ILS wasn't 100% recently.

Kind sir, read above. They were warned. ;)
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Re: Air India 787 descents to within 200ft of water on approach to HKG

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:00 pm

reltney wrote:
LDRA wrote:
I heard this is the same aircraft, VT-ANE, that was hit by a building at ARN?!


How did the building hit the airplane? Was the building in motion? I hate when that happens.....


It's like the train that darts off the tracks to hit the car.

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