Chemist
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:08 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Bradin wrote:
If anyone's interested in the LiveATC recording, it will be at 17:00Z. The gasps and "oh no's" begin roughly at the 2:00 minute mark.

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php


This link doesn't take you directly to the recording.

Does anyone have a link to the actual recording? I'd like to listen to it.


Go to the link above, choose KBUR, choose today's date, and then in the pulldown the recording that starts at 1700Z.
Download the file and play it; it's an MP3. The action starts around 2:30 into the recording. Because I assume the receiver isn't at the airport, it's actually hard to hear the plane itself, but you can tell stuff is going on. The first two minutes before the accident there is some discussion of the rain and the winds.
 
johns624
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:14 am

So EMAS is a fancy name for "runaway truck lane". :)
 
ikramerica
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:29 am

Ufsatp wrote:
scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


It also would be reading different if it was Allegiant in America. Airline reputation sometime comes into play on things like this. Nice try though.

Honestly, we don't know who decided to keep BUR open rather than halt landings for a few minutes. The standing water in the area was building up quickly. You can see all the standing water in the photos there, and the rain had already let up a lot. The pilots aren't going to know just how bad the conditions on the ground are during approach in the rain. That's up to the airport.
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atcdan
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:56 am

Bottom line is, ATC reports the winds and precipitation and braking action reports. It is still up to the aircraft Captain to make the decision to land or not. It seems like it would have been prudent in retrospect to break off the approach and hold for a while or divert to LAX.

There's a saying we have that goes "Southwest will cut off their own mother to save 30 seconds", and I can't say I'd disagree with that statement through watching them operate. They are a great airline and a safe airline but there is a sense of urgency among their pilots that I have not noticed with other companies.
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Chemist
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:11 am

atcdan wrote:
Bottom line is, ATC reports the winds and precipitation and braking action reports. It is still up to the aircraft Captain to make the decision to land or not. It seems like it would have been prudent in retrospect to break off the approach and hold for a while or divert to LAX.

There's a saying we have that goes "Southwest will cut off their own mother to save 30 seconds", and I can't say I'd disagree with that statement through watching them operate. They are a great airline and a safe airline but there is a sense of urgency among their pilots that I have not noticed with other companies.


You yourself even said they are safe. There's a difference between expeditious and slow. I once sat in an AA jet that rode the brakes for almost 30 mins, taxiing at a crawl to the runway for takeoff. At an airport that had virtually no traffic.
 
Concierge
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:17 am

What are the potential consequences for the flight crew? Does anyone know what became of the crews of previous WN overruns?
 
jayunited
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:22 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Frankly I’m shocked this doesn’t happen more often at the likes of BUR, SNA, MDW, EYW, etc. where these large jets fly in ... especially when it rains


I'm not shocked that this doesn't happen more often and the reason is there are safety measures built into the system. Today many of UA's flights into SNA were weight restricted and on some flights we were leaving revenue passengers, bags, and/or cargo behind because of the wet runway at SNA. When there are wet short runways there may be a need to restrict payload into that station do to less than desirable breaking action upon arrival.
We don't know what happened in this situation and I'm not going to speculate as to how this happened. But the reason why you don't see this happen often on short contaminated runways is because both pilots and dispatchers are doing their job reading the TAF''s, reading the METAR's and making the necessary adjustments at the up-line station or in the air to prevent (or reduce) these types of incidents.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:48 am

CO764 wrote:

Keeping up a.net tradition, that's an 85% load factor, not bad for a Thu OAK-BUR flight.
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:49 am

Armodeen wrote:
Someone should send the pics to EK and ask which they prefer.

Hah! Touché.
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crj900lr
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:50 am

Concierge wrote:
What are the potential consequences for the flight crew? Does anyone know what became of the crews of previous WN overruns?



The Flight Attendants should be fine and continue to work, now the guys/gals up front, they gots some explaining to do but lets see what the CVR and investigation come up with before we send them off to jail. Not sure what happened to the previous ones that were in those other incidents, the only one I remember was the LGA one and the Captain was fired I believe.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:52 am

atcdan wrote:
Bottom line is, ATC reports the winds and precipitation and braking action reports. It is still up to the aircraft Captain to make the decision to land or not. It seems like it would have been prudent in retrospect to break off the approach and hold for a while or divert to LAX.

There's a saying we have that goes "Southwest will cut off their own mother to save 30 seconds", and I can't say I'd disagree with that statement through watching them operate. They are a great airline and a safe airline but there is a sense of urgency among their pilots that I have not noticed with other companies.


A few observations:

1) ATC reports what they have but the data are never completely current and there is no guarantee that they have not changed.

2) It’s a little early to jump to the urgency conclusion. Folks did that after 1248 and the CVR transcript revealed lots of (entirely appropriate) deliberation.
Last edited by Cubsrule on Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mcdu
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:53 am

Listened to the tower recording. The WN crew made an unfortunate comment on the tower frequency when notified of heavy precipitation over the airport while on approach, then continued the approach with a 10kt tailwind. IIRC from out ops we were not allowed to land BUR with a tailwind.

The investigation into this one will have some CRM issues based on what I have heard and this may be a black eye on WN Flight Ops again.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:54 am

Revelation wrote:
CO764 wrote:

Keeping up a.net tradition, that's an 85% load factor, not bad for a Thu OAK-BUR flight.


85%? more like 78% no?
 
ikramerica
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 am

About 8 miles due west under the landing path at the same elevation the water inundation was so intense at that time of the morning that on Sepulveda Blvd cars were stranded in the road due to high water and drivers had to be rescued. This is not a common occurrence there. I don’t remember seeing that and I lived 2 blocks away from that area for years.

So the amount of water was briefly biblical. The question is why the plane was landing at that time.
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:56 am

Concierge wrote:
What are the potential consequences for the flight crew? Does anyone know what became of the crews of previous WN overruns?


What if it's the same flight crew...
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mcdu
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:10 am

Listened to the tower recording. The WN crew made an unfortunate comment on the tower frequency when notified of heavy precipitation over the airport while on approach, then continued the approach with a 10kt tailwind. IIRC from out ops we were not allowed to land BUR with a tailwind.

The report on this one will be interesting and perhaps myth confirming
 
nine4nine
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:20 am

Maybe time for the FAA to revisit the approach plates to RWY8? I know some pilots who aren’t too keen on the current glideslope once they reach VNY which for people not familiar with the 2 airports is directly under the flight path about 6.1 miles from the threshold of RWY8 at BUR.

I know there’s a slight dive to BUR as the overfly of VNY has to clear local air traffic, I’m not sure what that altitude is but I do know many of these flights do come in hot to BUR as they dump altitude rather quick on short final.
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:32 am

Just listen to SWA2420 pilot getting pissy that he can’t push back because of the emergency vehicles behind him 4 minutes after his company just over-ran the damn runway. That is CLASSIC Southwest right there!
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:39 am

Southeast Of Disorder
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:46 am

Passedv1 wrote:
Just listen to SWA2420 pilot getting pissy that he can’t push back because of the emergency vehicles behind him 4 minutes after his company just over-ran the damn runway. That is CLASSIC Southwest right there!


Behind is the operative word. He likely had no idea what had transpired or to what degree, as the rearview camera in the 737 is lousy. :sarcastic:

Sitting at the gate in BUR, you have zero view of runway 8/26.

Emergencies happen at the airport on a regular basis - some major, but almost all minor.

I would hardly call his tone "pissy".
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:50 am

Interesting note is that the aircraft in this BUR incident is LGA's sistership.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:07 am

I very much doubt this is a write off. There’s not much visible structural damage and the gear is intact, just buried under the break away material that is designed to crumble to slow an over run. Perhaps some gear maintenance, new set of rubbers, engine cowlings, a few fam blades, a few dents on the belly and some new paint but visible damage is extremely minimal. Nothing like N668SW that lost its gear, bent it’s engine mounts, sent its wings thru a grater, and had multiple creases in the fuselage.
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arfbool
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:16 am

Does anyone know if the runway will reopen as soon as the plane is removed or if the arrestor bed has to be repaired first as well?
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:18 am

n471wn wrote:
I show 4 hull losses of SWA—not all accidents. Aircraft were w/o at Baltimore, Nashville, New York and the first one at Burbank.


It’s an accident if there is significant damage to the airframe. If it’s a hull loss it’s pretty sure it’s an accident. Although the FAA&NTSB are the final determinants of that.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:50 am

nine4nine wrote:
I very much doubt this is a write off. There’s not much visible structural damage and the gear is intact, just buried under the break away material that is designed to crumble to slow an over run.

I think "visible" is a key word here. The landing gear did brake this plane like never before. Did that bend or twist the wing main spar structure where the landing gear is connected? if so, then it is a very expensive repair, and being an almost 20 years old plane I wouldn't exclude a write off.
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:43 am

WayexTDI wrote:
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


WN has a history of higher profile runway overruns. I’m not sure if their rate is higher than other US airlines, but I’d really like to see the numbers for comparison.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:54 am

USAirKid wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


WN has a history of higher profile runway overruns. I’m not sure if their rate is higher than other US airlines, but I’d really like to see the numbers for comparison.

All the airlines have runway/taxiway overruns.
WN: 2x in BUR 1x in MDW
UA: 1x in IAH a couple years ago while turning off the runway, a couple weeks ago in DEN with ice on the taxiway
DL and CO both wrecked MD80s on LGA
AA destroyed an MD80 in LIT
Not to mention the regionals

And those are just the ones off the top if my head.
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jetmatt777
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:13 am

USAirKid wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


WN has a history of higher profile runway overruns. I’m not sure if their rate is higher than other US airlines, but I’d really like to see the numbers for comparison.


I’d be willing to bet that they have a disproportionately greater number of operations on short runways.
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smartplane
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:26 am

william wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.


The determining factor will likely be whether or not the engines and/or gear kicked up any debris into the belly or wing of the plane that caused more than minor skin abrasions/dents. Once you factor in a full gear overhaul, two new engines, new paint, minor belly & wing repair; any large additional costs are probably going to push it into the W/O category. Had it been a 10-12 year old 73G; I think there would be no question as to whether or not it would be repaired.


Do the majors self insure their aircraft? Can't imagine State Farm having an aviation division. :D

You can self-insure the aircraft and engines, but not public and passenger liability.

This would be a flying accident claim (commercial aviation has multiple components, for example taxiing).

Doubt Southwest would insure an aircraft of this age. Possibly the engines, as they may be considerably younger. So repair will be at the owner's expense. Interesting to see what they do.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:23 am

TWA772LR wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


WN has a history of higher profile runway overruns. I’m not sure if their rate is higher than other US airlines, but I’d really like to see the numbers for comparison.

All the airlines have runway/taxiway overruns.
WN: 2x in BUR 1x in MDW
UA: 1x in IAH a couple years ago while turning off the runway, a couple weeks ago in DEN with ice on the taxiway
DL and CO both wrecked MD80s on LGA
AA destroyed an MD80 in LIT
Not to mention the regionals

And those are just the ones off the top if my head.


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Chemist
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:50 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


WN has a history of higher profile runway overruns. I’m not sure if their rate is higher than other US airlines, but I’d really like to see the numbers for comparison.


I’d be willing to bet that they have a disproportionately greater number of operations on short runways.


I'm sure that's true. They also undoubtedly have a shorter average stage length than the other majors, which means far more takeoffs and landings. So statistically given their size and short hops, they would have more overruns, if they are at the the same rate as other carriers.
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:22 am

Passedv1 wrote:
Just listen to SWA2420 pilot getting pissy that he can’t push back because of the emergency vehicles behind him 4 minutes after his company just over-ran the damn runway. That is CLASSIC Southwest right there!


Their planes are not making money if they aren't moving. :yes:
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:32 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Passedv1 wrote:
Just listen to SWA2420 pilot getting pissy that he can’t push back because of the emergency vehicles behind him 4 minutes after his company just over-ran the damn runway. That is CLASSIC Southwest right there!


Their planes are not making money if they aren't moving. :yes:


I’ve heard that a number of times across a variety of carriers when listening to ATC. it’s like they are in their own bubble.
-Dave


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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:59 am

mcdu wrote:
Listened to the tower recording. The WN crew made an unfortunate comment on the tower frequency when notified of heavy precipitation over the airport while on approach, then continued the approach with a 10kt tailwind. IIRC from out ops we were not allowed to land BUR with a tailwind.

The investigation into this one will have some CRM issues based on what I have heard and this may be a black eye on WN Flight Ops again.


"Perfect. Thanks." Not the worst thing he could say, but there's a lot that could be read into that. Tower promptly followed with "Wind 270 at 10." That's a direct 10-knot tailwind, as you point out. Crew didn't acknowledge that, but it was pretty-clear.

Question whether once again we will read on the CVR transcript, "My fault, my fault, my fault" as they skid down the runway into the EMAS. That is, I assume, the CRM issue you are hearing about.

The tower/ground (second) archive is much clearer than the app/twr/grd (first) archive in terms of audio quality, and they capture much of the same thing, although really a bit more stuff on the second one.

Interesting that unlike other accidents, we don't hear the tower announcing an accident on the field and the closure of the arrival runway, as well as go-arounds to other flights. The closure announcement only comes in response to a question on the air well after the overrun. Also, interesting that they don't seem to acknowledge the accident aircraft's communication that the engines are shut down, no fire indicated, power and a/c on. Could just be switching among frequencies. Also pretty-crazy that when ARFF is calling in mutual-aid and running a lot of emergency vehicles on the airport, they are still clearing a WN flight for takeoff on 15. Maybe there isn't much of a conflict, but still... (Actually, looking at the KBUR airport diagram, there seems to be a lot of opportunity for vehicles coming from the fire station to cross the active in the process of reaching the accident. Yeah, they're supposed to get permission, but if they are mutual-aid guys, it seems like a risk. Necessary?)
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:58 pm

Fun fact: the company that makes the EMAS beds is no longer in business, meaning they will be unable to repair it unless they or someone bought extra blocks. This would render runway 8 virtually unusable by commercial aircraft.
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maint123
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:42 pm

Lucky escape for the passengers.Could have easily been a tragedy.
Southwest seems to have quite a few issues lately.
This might due to pilot training or poorly maintained tyres or even a badly maintained runway. Anyone checking the Ra values of the runways.
If a bit of rain would result in such mishaps, London airports would be perpetually closed.

Reminds me not to fly southwest when in the US.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


My thoughts exactly. But don't hold your breath that anyone will even acknowledge your comment...
 
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longhauler
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:05 pm

aaexecplat wrote:
scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


My thoughts exactly. But don't hold your breath that anyone will even acknowledge your comment...


Actually a few did acknowledge this comment, but maybe ... just maybe ... we are waiting for some initial information release before making judgement. One thing the Lion Air accident taught us, is that what the armchair investigators thought 12 hours later, then 3 days later, then two weeks later is very very different and shows how useless an uninformed opinion can be.

Remember though, Southwest is a huge airline that flies mostly short legs. Statistically, every flight (not every seat mile) is an opportunity for an accident, so odds are, these types of accidents would happen to them. (As opposed to some airline flying mostly wide body aircraft on very long flights ... with with similar seat mile stats).

That Southwest went almost five decades before their first passenger fatality speaks volumes.

This has the indications of an unstabilised approach/landing. But at this point it is only (uninformed) conjecture. Today, stable approach criteria and SOPs are being mandated as the effects are being seen more often.
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mcdu
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm

The title of this thread should read “overrun” versus the “slides off”.
 
BREECH
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:14 pm

Was the plane equipped with Runway Anti-Slide Augmentation System (RASAS)?

PS Southwest, go for A320!
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packcheer
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:39 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
Fun fact: the company that makes the EMAS beds is no longer in business, meaning they will be unable to repair it unless they or someone bought extra blocks. This would render runway 8 virtually unusable by commercial aircraft.
Whoa..... How is that going to work? Surely there have been other airports with recently damaged EMAS material.





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WayexTDI
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:42 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
Fun fact: the company that makes the EMAS beds is no longer in business, meaning they will be unable to repair it unless they or someone bought extra blocks. This would render runway 8 virtually unusable by commercial aircraft.

It seems that ESCO was the company that installed the EMAS in Burbank (https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/ne ... wsId=13754 under EMAS Installations).
ESCO was part of Zodiac Aerospace, which was absorbed into Safran, and still exists under the Safran Aerosystems Branch (https://www.safran-aerosystems.com/safe ... -systems-0)
 
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:09 pm

mcdu wrote:
The title of this thread should read “overrun” versus the “slides off”.

Well, I just quoted the tweet that was the first info I had on the incident, but feel free to critique...

If you want to do something about it, hit the little triangle symbol at the top of each and every post, and suggest a new title to the mods...
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The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:18 pm

Chemist wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


So the slights hurled at them and the comment that 737’s are unforgiving aren’t enough for you?


Given that WN has at least an order of magnitude (perhaps 2) more flights annually than Lion Air, I think the Lion Air criticisms are warranted given the respective records of the two airlines.


Given the state of airport infrastructure in the Indonesian archipelago (not to mention weather conditions), one could be forgiven for concluding that they weren't doing such a bad job . . .
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RL757PVD
Posts: 2919
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:46 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
Fun fact: the company that makes the EMAS beds is no longer in business, meaning they will be unable to repair it unless they or someone bought extra blocks. This would render runway 8 virtually unusable by commercial aircraft.

It seems that ESCO was the company that installed the EMAS in Burbank (https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/ne ... wsId=13754 under EMAS Installations).
ESCO was part of Zodiac Aerospace, which was absorbed into Safran, and still exists under the Safran Aerosystems Branch (https://www.safran-aerosystems.com/safe ... -systems-0)


EMAS Blocks and materials are no longer being produced, its a national problem that has the attention of the FAA.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:50 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
Fun fact: the company that makes the EMAS beds is no longer in business, meaning they will be unable to repair it unless they or someone bought extra blocks. This would render runway 8 virtually unusable by commercial aircraft.

Why, the runway was safe to use before the installation of EMAS, wasn't it? It's just safer with it installed.
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WayexTDI
Posts: 186
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:02 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
Fun fact: the company that makes the EMAS beds is no longer in business, meaning they will be unable to repair it unless they or someone bought extra blocks. This would render runway 8 virtually unusable by commercial aircraft.

It seems that ESCO was the company that installed the EMAS in Burbank (https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/ne ... wsId=13754 under EMAS Installations).
ESCO was part of Zodiac Aerospace, which was absorbed into Safran, and still exists under the Safran Aerosystems Branch (https://www.safran-aerosystems.com/safe ... -systems-0)


EMAS Blocks and materials are no longer being produced, its a national problem that has the attention of the FAA.

First, you say the company is no longer in business (which is incorrect).
Now, you say they no longer manufacture the material. So, which one is it?

Do you have a source for it? Everything on Safran's website indicate that they are still installing EMASMAX systems, the same system installed in BUR.
The FAA fact sheet I linked (https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/ne ... wsId=13754) is dated July 5, 2018, makes no mention of shortage and lists 7 systems in current installation (as of July 5, 2018) at 6 airports, to be completed by the end of 2018.

So, unless you can provide facts, everything points out to the ESCO/Zodiac/Safran EMAS still being manufactured, procurable and installed.
 
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litz
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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:14 pm

freakyrat wrote:
Chemist wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

So the slights hurled at them and the comment that 737’s are unforgiving aren’t enough for you?


Given that WN has at least an order of magnitude (perhaps 2) more flights annually than Lion Air, I think the Lion Air criticisms are warranted given the respective records of the two airlines.


Plus it appears that Lion Air didn't order the optional AOA indicator software or visual alarms on the AOA sensors that Southwest did. Southwest has theirs on the HUD and are also making modifications to put it on the PFD's. To Lion Air's credit they are now going to require their MAX pilots to have extra SIM training relating to the system.


At a more basic level, Southwest ordered the HUD. LionAir did not.
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 2919
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:32 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
It seems that ESCO was the company that installed the EMAS in Burbank (https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/ne ... wsId=13754 under EMAS Installations).
ESCO was part of Zodiac Aerospace, which was absorbed into Safran, and still exists under the Safran Aerosystems Branch (https://www.safran-aerosystems.com/safe ... -systems-0)


EMAS Blocks and materials are no longer being produced, its a national problem that has the attention of the FAA.

First, you say the company is no longer in business (which is incorrect).
Now, you say they no longer manufacture the material. So, which one is it?

Do you have a source for it? Everything on Safran's website indicate that they are still installing EMASMAX systems, the same system installed in BUR.
The FAA fact sheet I linked (https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/ne ... wsId=13754) is dated July 5, 2018, makes no mention of shortage and lists 7 systems in current installation (as of July 5, 2018) at 6 airports, to be completed by the end of 2018.

So, unless you can provide facts, everything points out to the ESCO/Zodiac/Safran EMAS still being manufactured, procurable and installed.


If you worked in the airport development circuit you would be more aware... its not widely discussed because there isnt a good answer and it highlights the issues with the FAA sole-supplier approach.

http://www.aviationnews.net/index.cfm?d ... _id=271624

Google also found it disussed in these airport meeting minutes

http://bocaairport.com/wp-content/uploa ... inal-2.pdf
https://agendas.addisontx.gov/docs/2018 ... 6_4414.pdf
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
sgbroimp
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:35 pm

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:58 pm

USAirKid wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


WN has a history of higher profile runway overruns. I’m not sure if their rate is higher than other US airlines, but I’d really like to see the numbers for comparison.



If I recall my statistics courses, these numbers are so low as a percentage of "possibles" that even 10 for one airline and 1 for another would not be statistically different, so really no conclusion about who has more is really possible/reliable.

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