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Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:32 pm
by XT6Wagon
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

More over, its clear the industry does learn as the plane was stopped short of the road.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:36 pm
by CO764

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:42 pm
by WayexTDI
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:46 pm
by jetmatt777
WayexTDI wrote:
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


Very easy to read it the opposite way, which is what I presume he meant. With thousands of operations a day and high fleet utilization these events are still astronomically rare. It’s true with such a large operation any weak link will be exposed very quick, which is a testament to how safe the airline is: WN doesn’t have a bad record at all.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:47 pm
by Spacepope
starrion wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
While I understand that the airport has strict rules on approach for safety and noise limits, like the previous crash there it is likely this plane came in too high and fast and compounded by the wet conditions. As this was built in 1999 this is for sure going to scrap after the investigation. WN is having a bad year after so many good ones.


Written off? Until they pull it out, we don't even know if there is serious damage. SW repaired the last one, and it suffered worse damage.


Which last one? They wrote off 3 in landing accidents.

In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:50 pm
by XT6Wagon
jetmatt777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
XT6Wagon wrote:
The amazing thing is that this doesn't happen more often. Huge fleet making 4+ flights a day mean that any weakness in the organization, its people, or its equipment will be found.

Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


Very easy to read it the opposite way, which is what I presume he meant. With thousands of operations a day and high fleet utilization these events are still astronomically rare. It’s true with such a large operation any weak link will be exposed very quick, which is a testament to how safe the airline is: WN doesn’t have a bad record at all.


This, WN is large enough that they can't hide problems with mere good luck. The "one in a million" issue would be relatively routine for them.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:51 pm
by September11
Previous Southwest incident at Burbank





Fortunately, significant less damage this time, thanks to EMAS

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:54 pm
by starrion
Spacepope wrote:
starrion wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
While I understand that the airport has strict rules on approach for safety and noise limits, like the previous crash there it is likely this plane came in too high and fast and compounded by the wet conditions. As this was built in 1999 this is for sure going to scrap after the investigation. WN is having a bad year after so many good ones.


Written off? Until they pull it out, we don't even know if there is serious damage. SW repaired the last one, and it suffered worse damage.


Which last one? They wrote off 3 in landing accidents.

In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.



The previous Burbank overrun. Although to be fair, I think they were trying to preserve their 'no hull loss' status at the time.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:57 pm
by scbriml
PlanesNTrains wrote:
So the slights hurled at them and the comment that 737’s are unforgiving aren’t enough for you?


I was simply observing the chalk and cheese differences in the attitudes of posters in similar overrun threads when non-US airlines are involved. * shrug *

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 pm
by Chemist
PlanesNTrains wrote:
scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


So the slights hurled at them and the comment that 737’s are unforgiving aren’t enough for you?


Given that WN has at least an order of magnitude (perhaps 2) more flights annually than Lion Air, I think the Lion Air criticisms are warranted given the respective records of the two airlines.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:01 pm
by ak
LAXBUR wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Was the over run during takeoff, landing or taxi? They’re all done at the same speed at that outfit. :o


As stated several times in this post and linked news article... it was landing. Geesh.


And there he is! Lighten up there forum patrol. GEESH!

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:06 pm
by tkoenig95
LA pilots don't know how to fly in the rain either? LOL all jokes aside glad the EMAS was there to do its job.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:09 pm
by WayexTDI
XT6Wagon wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Are you insinuating WN has a weak organization, weak people or weak equipment???

WN is one of the airlines with the lowest accident rate; not really an indication of weak airline/people/equipment...


Very easy to read it the opposite way, which is what I presume he meant. With thousands of operations a day and high fleet utilization these events are still astronomically rare. It’s true with such a large operation any weak link will be exposed very quick, which is a testament to how safe the airline is: WN doesn’t have a bad record at all.


This, WN is large enough that they can't hide problems with mere good luck. The "one in a million" issue would be relatively routine for them.

OK, it didn't read like that to me.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:10 pm
by Spacepope
starrion wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
starrion wrote:

Written off? Until they pull it out, we don't even know if there is serious damage. SW repaired the last one, and it suffered worse damage.


Which last one? They wrote off 3 in landing accidents.

In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.



The previous Burbank overrun. Although to be fair, I think they were trying to preserve their 'no hull loss' status at the time.


N668SW, the previous Burbank overrun, was written off in that accident.

They repaired the MDW overrun, wrote off the LGA 73G nosewheel landing incident aircraft, and one more 733 that slid off the runway in an icestorm a few years ago.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:12 pm
by mm320cap
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.


The 737-800/900 are. The 700 is very capable of short runway ops.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:26 pm
by alasizon
Spacepope wrote:
In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.


The determining factor will likely be whether or not the engines and/or gear kicked up any debris into the belly or wing of the plane that caused more than minor skin abrasions/dents. Once you factor in a full gear overhaul, two new engines, new paint, minor belly & wing repair; any large additional costs are probably going to push it into the W/O category. Had it been a 10-12 year old 73G; I think there would be no question as to whether or not it would be repaired.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:34 pm
by Bradin
Latest Southwest Statement:

https://www.facebook.com/SouthwestAir/p ... 7070708949

Updated Statement on Flight 278:

Our Employees are in the process of getting the 112 Customers from Flight 278 (Oakland to Burbank) their luggage and belongings. Nearly all the passengers had Burbank as their final destination, and we’re working with the few remaining Customers to get them on connecting flights to their final destinations. We also are refunding the cost of Customers’ roundtrip airfare as well as including an additional gesture of goodwill. Southwest operations to/from Burbank are anticipated to return to a normal schedule later this afternoon. We encourage Customers who are traveling today to/from Burbank to check their flight status at Southwest.com.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:45 pm
by william
alasizon wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.


The determining factor will likely be whether or not the engines and/or gear kicked up any debris into the belly or wing of the plane that caused more than minor skin abrasions/dents. Once you factor in a full gear overhaul, two new engines, new paint, minor belly & wing repair; any large additional costs are probably going to push it into the W/O category. Had it been a 10-12 year old 73G; I think there would be no question as to whether or not it would be repaired.


Do the majors self insure their aircraft? Can't imagine State Farm having an aviation division. :D

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:52 pm
by MIflyer12
william wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
In any case I think this one will be returned to service after a change of engines (they ate a lot of EMALS debris), gear and of course the newly poop-stained pilots seats.


The determining factor will likely be whether or not the engines and/or gear kicked up any debris into the belly or wing of the plane that caused more than minor skin abrasions/dents. Once you factor in a full gear overhaul, two new engines, new paint, minor belly & wing repair; any large additional costs are probably going to push it into the W/O category. Had it been a 10-12 year old 73G; I think there would be no question as to whether or not it would be repaired.


Do the majors self insure their aircraft? Can't imagine State Farm having an aviation division. :D


I don't know what U.S. air carriers do to insure assets, but about 20 years ago Ford Motor Company had a U.S. liability policy with a $7 million deductible. It's not like WN needs zero-deductible plus glass coverage.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:55 pm
by Bradin
If anyone's interested in the LiveATC recording, it will be at 17:00Z. The gasps and "oh no's" begin roughly at the 2:00 minute mark.

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:58 pm
by highflier92660
From the photos you can discern that the spoilers and reversers are stowed. Additionally on flightaware the last speed readout was 152 knots which was probably Vref + (a bunch). It will be interesting what the CVR and VDR show.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:00 pm
by crj900lr
I doubt the underside sustained that much damage. The engines are barley touching the EMAS, possibly some gear damage but i would be surprised if it was written off and scrapped.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:04 pm
by Chemist
Per the liveatc recording, wind was 270 @10, or almost a 10kt tailwind on a <6000' runway. With heavy precip reported.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:05 pm
by stratclub
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.

Really? Sometimes "stuff" just happens. Go back to your playpen.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:07 pm
by SurfandSnow
mm320cap wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.


The 737-800/900 are. The 700 is very capable of short runway ops.


Does WN even operate the 738 at BUR? I know AS and UA do; AA's upcoming DFW-BUR service will be flown by the type as well.

As any aerial picture of BUR will show, there is virtually no room for error at this piston era airport. Existing terminal facilities are dangerously close to active runways (this is why the plane veered left rather than right), though a replacement terminal with more appropriate setback is finally in the works. Major roads run alongside the perimeter fence at the end of each runway. If you come up short or overrun the runway beyond those roads, you're in the midst of densely populated residential areas, busy retail districts or other commercial development.

I'm shocked that after Southwest 1455 (the infamous picture of the WN 737 next to the Chevron gas station sign) most arrivals continue to use BUR's shorter Runway 8. Runway 15/33 has an extra thousand feet of pavement to work with. Is terrain that much of an issue for approaching aircraft, or is the addition of ILS prohibitively expensive, or have NIMBY voters somehow prevented a shift of (most) landings to the longer runway?

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:13 pm
by Chemist
SurfandSnow wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.


The 737-800/900 are. The 700 is very capable of short runway ops.


Does WN even operate the 738 at BUR? I know AS and UA do; AA's upcoming DFW-BUR service will be flown by the type as well.

As any aerial picture of BUR will show, there is virtually no room for error at this piston era airport. Existing terminal facilities are dangerously close to active runways (this is why the plane veered left rather than right), though a replacement terminal with more appropriate setback is finally in the works. Major roads run alongside the perimeter fence at the end of each runway. If you come up short or overrun the runway beyond those roads, you're in the midst of densely populated residential areas, busy retail districts or other commercial development.

I'm shocked that after Southwest 1455 (the infamous picture of the WN 737 next to the Chevron gas station sign) most arrivals continue to use BUR's shorter Runway 8. Runway 15/33 has an extra thousand feet of pavement to work with. Is terrain that much of an issue for approaching aircraft, or is the addition of ILS prohibitively expensive, or have NIMBY voters somehow prevented a shift of (most) landings to the longer runway?


I suspect surrounding terrain and perhaps LAX traffic patterns to the south preclude ILS installation on 15/33.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:18 pm
by CallmeJB
SurfandSnow wrote:
I'm shocked that after Southwest 1455 (the infamous picture of the WN 737 next to the Chevron gas station sign) most arrivals continue to use BUR's shorter Runway 8. Runway 15/33 has an extra thousand feet of pavement to work with. Is terrain that much of an issue for approaching aircraft, or is the addition of ILS prohibitively expensive, or have NIMBY voters somehow prevented a shift of (most) landings to the longer runway?

Looks to me like there's no room adjacent to 15/33 touchdown zones for a glideslope antenna installation. Not to mention that there's nowhere to put approach lights.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:35 pm
by WN732
SurfandSnow wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.


The 737-800/900 are. The 700 is very capable of short runway ops.


Does WN even operate the 738 at BUR? I know AS and UA do; AA's upcoming DFW-BUR service will be flown by the type as well.

As any aerial picture of BUR will show, there is virtually no room for error at this piston era airport. Existing terminal facilities are dangerously close to active runways (this is why the plane veered left rather than right), though a replacement terminal with more appropriate setback is finally in the works. Major roads run alongside the perimeter fence at the end of each runway. If you come up short or overrun the runway beyond those roads, you're in the midst of densely populated residential areas, busy retail districts or other commercial development.

I'm shocked that after Southwest 1455 (the infamous picture of the WN 737 next to the Chevron gas station sign) most arrivals continue to use BUR's shorter Runway 8. Runway 15/33 has an extra thousand feet of pavement to work with. Is terrain that much of an issue for approaching aircraft, or is the addition of ILS prohibitively expensive, or have NIMBY voters somehow prevented a shift of (most) landings to the longer runway?


The terrain makes ILS for 15/33 impossible. Same reason why 27 only has Localizer at SAN

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:41 pm
by departedflights
SurfandSnow wrote:
Does WN even operate the 738 at BUR? I know AS and UA do; AA's upcoming DFW-BUR service will be flown by the type as well.


Yes. Tomorrow's schedule shows four Southwest -800s departing Burbank. One each to Phoenix, Dallas, Denver and Chicago.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:51 pm
by freakyrat
Chemist wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


So the slights hurled at them and the comment that 737’s are unforgiving aren’t enough for you?


Given that WN has at least an order of magnitude (perhaps 2) more flights annually than Lion Air, I think the Lion Air criticisms are warranted given the respective records of the two airlines.


Plus it appears that Lion Air didn't order the optional AOA indicator software or visual alarms on the AOA sensors that Southwest did. Southwest has theirs on the HUD and are also making modifications to put it on the PFD's. To Lion Air's credit they are now going to require their MAX pilots to have extra SIM training relating to the system.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:54 pm
by freakyrat
crj900lr wrote:
I doubt the underside sustained that much damage. The engines are barley touching the EMAS, possibly some gear damage but i would be surprised if it was written off and scrapped.


EMAS is designed to limit any damage to the aircraft.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:59 pm
by mcdu
stratclub wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.

Really? Sometimes "stuff" just happens. Go back to your playpen.


So will that be your guess on the NTSB report? “Stuff just happens”.

If they had 150+ kts in a -700 with a 10kt tailwind to a wet runway I would almost guess they were negative in the landing distance required versus distance available.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:04 pm
by PSAatSAN4Ever
SurfandSnow wrote:
It's been a *very* rainy morning here in LA. Landings at BUR almost always occur on 5,802 ft (1,768 m) Runway 8 since that is the only runway with ILS and clear terrain for approach. This will always be challenging on wet days like today (and March 5th, 2000) but runway extension is out of the question thanks to the NIMBY voters of Burbank. Looks like EMAS is the best possible solution given these operational constraints. Are commercial ops banned at nearby VNY (Van Nuys Airport), where a nice 8,001 ft (2,439 m) runway is available?


In my 50+ years in Southern California, no one has ever operated out of VNY commercially. It is the LA equivalent of Teterboro airport - general & private aviation only.

Let's also remember that while runway length is important, it's not the only factor involved in landing. SNA, for example, has only 5,280 feet of runway available, yet 737's (and larger) operate from here, flying to and from New York and Hawai'i. San Diego's displaced threshold for landing allows only +/- 7200 feet, which is more than enough for a 747-400, 777-300, and A340-600 (all of which landed here last Thursday) in the rain.

I have my guesses and speculation about what might have caused this accident and what happened during, but until the final report is out, I'll choose to focus on the fact that no one was injured (or worse!), and the plane might be salvageable.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:19 pm
by ClipperMonsoon
mjoelnir wrote:
So overruns do not just happen in Indonesia.


Glad to see no one was injured, hey at least the nose gear tires didn't come off, or was tilted 90 degrees, oh wait that's a different.....
Short runway, tailwind, and wet conditions are not a good recipe, this is basic airmanship I was taught many years ago.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:22 pm
by phllax
SurfandSnow wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The 737 is unforgiving on short runways. Add wet and a potentially unstabalaized approach and it’s the recipe for an overrun.


The 737-800/900 are. The 700 is very capable of short runway ops.


Does WN even operate the 738 at BUR? I know AS and UA do; AA's upcoming DFW-BUR service will be flown by the type as well.

As any aerial picture of BUR will show, there is virtually no room for error at this piston era airport. Existing terminal facilities are dangerously close to active runways (this is why the plane veered left rather than right), though a replacement terminal with more appropriate setback is finally in the works. Major roads run alongside the perimeter fence at the end of each runway. If you come up short or overrun the runway beyond those roads, you're in the midst of densely populated residential areas, busy retail districts or other commercial development.

I'm shocked that after Southwest 1455 (the infamous picture of the WN 737 next to the Chevron gas station sign) most arrivals continue to use BUR's shorter Runway 8. Runway 15/33 has an extra thousand feet of pavement to work with. Is terrain that much of an issue for approaching aircraft, or is the addition of ILS prohibitively expensive, or have NIMBY voters somehow prevented a shift of (most) landings to the longer runway?


They operate up to 6 800's per day at times, and if the impending gate shuffle happens, they will get A5-8 and have more.

As for runway 15/33, I asked a pilot on my last flight in why they don't use 15 for arrivals so they have an extra +/- 1,500 feet of concrete to play with and he responded that due to a high historical number of unstable approaches to 15, company policy prohibits use of landings on 15 during the day unless winds dictate it and conditions are clear due to terrain cropping up quickly on the crosswind leg, and apparently it's not allowed at all at night.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:27 pm
by n471wn
I show 4 hull losses of SWA—not all accidents. Aircraft were w/o at Baltimore, Nashville, New York and the first one at Burbank.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:39 pm
by ikramerica
A massive amount of rain was coming down at 10:30am today. The hardest rain I’ve seen this year. And this was after already a day of pretty good rain storms. Our lawn completely flooded, as did a couple of vent wells in the yard so water spilled over into the crawl space. And we have gutters, so that was only excess water with no place to go.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:45 pm
by nine4nine
Great job by the crew and also by the EMAS barrier of keeping this from blowing thru the blast fence and onto Hollywood Way like the last incident.

I believe this is the second plane to have hit the barrier, the first being a Gulfstream G4 with then NY Yankees player Alex Rodriguez on board.

From the photos it looks as if the gear is sheared but everything is pretty much intact and buried under the soft EMAS composite material that is designed to particulate and crumble and absorb the forward motion of a plane. I doubt there is any actual significant damage that would merit a write off in this case.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:52 pm
by SurfandSnow
phllax wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
mm320cap wrote:

The 737-800/900 are. The 700 is very capable of short runway ops.


Does WN even operate the 738 at BUR? I know AS and UA do; AA's upcoming DFW-BUR service will be flown by the type as well.

As any aerial picture of BUR will show, there is virtually no room for error at this piston era airport. Existing terminal facilities are dangerously close to active runways (this is why the plane veered left rather than right), though a replacement terminal with more appropriate setback is finally in the works. Major roads run alongside the perimeter fence at the end of each runway. If you come up short or overrun the runway beyond those roads, you're in the midst of densely populated residential areas, busy retail districts or other commercial development.

I'm shocked that after Southwest 1455 (the infamous picture of the WN 737 next to the Chevron gas station sign) most arrivals continue to use BUR's shorter Runway 8. Runway 15/33 has an extra thousand feet of pavement to work with. Is terrain that much of an issue for approaching aircraft, or is the addition of ILS prohibitively expensive, or have NIMBY voters somehow prevented a shift of (most) landings to the longer runway?


They operate up to 6 800's per day at times, and if the impending gate shuffle happens, they will get A5-8 and have more.

As for runway 15/33, I asked a pilot on my last flight in why they don't use 15 for arrivals so they have an extra +/- 1,500 feet of concrete to play with and he responded that due to a high historical number of unstable approaches to 15, company policy prohibits use of landings on 15 during the day unless winds dictate it and conditions are clear due to terrain cropping up quickly on the crosswind leg, and apparently it's not allowed at all at night.


Interesting! I figured there had to be a good reason such as this. Thanks for the info. Then again, depending on carrier those Runway 8 landings make for some incredibly short taxi times upon arrival. I've had many a flight turn directly off the active and pull into an empty Terminal A gate within seconds. At LAX, it can easily take a half hour or more between landing and arriving at your gate...

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:02 pm
by aklrno
Growing up in LA and learning to drive there I was warned about slick roads on the first rain of the season. Unlike many other place where rain happens all year intermittently, LA can go 6 months without a drop. Oil and rubber build up on the pavement and doesn't get washed away. First rain and all the roads turn into skidpads. Does the same thing happen to runways?

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:13 pm
by Armodeen
Someone should send the pics to EK and ask which they prefer.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:18 pm
by kiowa
starrion wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
While I understand that the airport has strict rules on approach for safety and noise limits, like the previous crash there it is likely this plane came in too high and fast and compounded by the wet conditions. As this was built in 1999 this is for sure going to scrap after the investigation. WN is having a bad year after so many good ones.


Written off? Until they pull it out, we don't even know if there is serious damage. SW repaired the last one, and it suffered worse damage.


The last one at Burbank or do you mean at Midway?

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:18 pm
by dangle
vikkyvik wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Actually looks like they steered left into as they were concerned about going deep into EMAS or going into the street again.


They may not have actually steered left; airplane could simply have started veering left due to loss of traction.

electro3k wrote:
Looking at the photos... it ended up around here:


Interesting thing is, unlike most EMAS installations I've seen, the EMAS there is actually significantly extended to the left of the runway. That may have been a lucky break...


Certainly not trying to judge or claim to know something I can't know, but when I was educating myself about EMAS, I came across this:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... mas-phobia

(suggesting that some pilots are intentionally avoiding EMAS, perhaps in an attempt to spare themselves the attention that ending in the EMAS entails)

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:19 pm
by deebee278
So EMAS works. I'm glad it was there. BTW, for the younger posters, there used to be a gas station at the far end of RW08 that was taken out by a corporate jet and almost by Southwest at different occasions. Looking at Google Earth, I see there is just a parking lot there now. It also reminds me of an AA 727 crash in '76 at St Thomas, VI, very short runway for that aircraft type.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:25 pm
by ikramerica
aklrno wrote:
Growing up in LA and learning to drive there I was warned about slick roads on the first rain of the season. Unlike many other place where rain happens all year intermittently, LA can go 6 months without a drop. Oil and rubber build up on the pavement and doesn't get washed away. First rain and all the roads turn into skidpads. Does the same thing happen to runways?

This was not the first rain of the season. This is the third week in a row where we have had a full day of heavy rains. All residual oils have washed off at this point.

Again, at the time of the incident a very intense cell was passing over. The rain was very heavy and intensity picked up to a torrent at times, and the wind was pushing it at an angle from the southwest. From 9:30 to about 10:45 there was just more rain than drainage systems could handle. There was spot flooding all around the LA area. Just went to my preferred gas station and their pumps are disabled due to water infiltration into the tanks.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:29 pm
by FriscoHeavy
Bradin wrote:
If anyone's interested in the LiveATC recording, it will be at 17:00Z. The gasps and "oh no's" begin roughly at the 2:00 minute mark.

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php


This link doesn't take you directly to the recording.

Does anyone have a link to the actual recording? I'd like to listen to it.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:30 pm
by Ufsatp
scbriml wrote:
This thread would be reading very differently if this was Lion in Indonesia. :scratchchin:


It also would be reading different if it was Allegiant in America. Airline reputation sometime comes into play on things like this. Nice try though.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:42 pm
by rbavfan
I guess with the Chevron there they could not stop in for gas this time.

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:01 am
by n471wn
[threeid][/threeid]
kiowa wrote:
starrion wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
While I understand that the airport has strict rules on approach for safety and noise limits, like the previous crash there it is likely this plane came in too high and fast and compounded by the wet conditions. As this was built in 1999 this is for sure going to scrap after the investigation. WN is having a bad year after so many good ones.


Written off? Until they pull it out, we don't even know if there is serious damage. SW repaired the last one, and it suffered worse damage.


The last one at Burbank or do you mean at Midway?


The Midway aircraft was repaired and flies today as N286SA

Re: Southwest 737 slides off runway at BUR

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:03 am
by n471wn
Opps meant N286WN